ATLANTIS & the Atlantic Ocean 1 (ORIGINAL)

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Apollo

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   posted 03-16-2006 08:20 PM                   
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> In the first place, the highest probabability of
> errors occuring would not be when the story was
> first relayed, but it would be during it's
> various copying over the years.

Wrong. The highes probability is oral tradition and translation. But not copying.
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Nonsense, use your common sense. When would there be a better chance of errors occuring, back in the days when the story was fresh, being told for the first time, or when it's being retold for the one thousandth time?

I'll give an example. This example will be lost on Thorwald, so I offer it to everyone else instead.

During the Middle Ages, there was a story of a young man named Jack, the Giant Killer. He was a fierce young warrior who sought out giants and slew them in bloody fashion, a warrior so brave that he was invited to join King Arthur's court.

By the time that the 1800's rolled around, the story, told and retold so many times, had changed completely. Instead of a fierce giant killer, the young man became teenaged boy who was simply sent by his mother to sell a cow at the market. During the episode, he simply ran into a giant and ended up running for his life.

The story of Jack the Giant Killer had, in a few hundred years, changed into the story of Jack and the Beanstalk.

Personally, I found the Giant Killer story much better.


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Wrong. We have the complete texts in Greek.
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Yes, copies translated from older Arabic texts, as already has been pointed out to you.


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> After they were re-discovered, they were
> translated into a host of different languages,
> among them ancient Greek,

Amusing :-)))
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True, too.
Plato's originals have been missing for perhaps two thousand years. Consult with your professors if you don't believe me.


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"Whom the gods destroy, they first make mad."

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nekozuki

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   posted 03-16-2006 08:24 PM                       
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Wow, that's interesting Apollo. You might also add at how there are Atlantis like stories around the world that point to it being in the Atlantic Ocean  But the story differs a bit because of culture and oral tradition.

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" Om Vasudevaya Namaha!"
With loving reverence, I bow to Lord Vishnu!

"Man is made by his belief. As he believes, so he is." - Lord Krishna, Bhagavad Gita

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Apollo

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   posted 03-16-2006 08:27 PM                   
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Originally posted by nekozuki:
What's with the fricking pseudo-science crap now? It's like a trend word. It's almost as annoying as the word poser.
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Yes, Neko, I will admit, it is annoying. And the sad truth for people who use the word is that they are often the ones who are practicing pseudo-science the most.

Most people who place Atlantis within the Pillars of Hercules really aren't interested in Atlantis. Sadly, they trade on the name because it adds a commercial viability that their theories would otherwise lack.


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nekozuki

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   posted 03-16-2006 08:34 PM                       
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All I hear is you're a pseudo-scientist and it starts a lot of bickering. I feel like I'm in junior high again.

[ 03-16-2006, 08:35 PM: Message edited by: nekozuki ]

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" Om Vasudevaya Namaha!"
With loving reverence, I bow to Lord Vishnu!

"Man is made by his belief. As he believes, so he is." - Lord Krishna, Bhagavad Gita

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Apollo

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   posted 03-16-2006 08:35 PM                   
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quote:
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Originally posted by nekozuki:
Wow, that's interesting Apollo. You might also add at how there are Atlantis like stories around the world that point to it being in the Atlantic Ocean  But the story differs a bit because of culture and oral tradition.
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Yes, it is interesting that the Mayans, Aztecs, Basques, Guanches and Berbers all place their origins in the Atlantic Ocean. Is one civilization the source of all these myths? Plato never says that exactly, it comes from Donnelley, but perhaps.

I've always felt we're looking for a prehistoric culture (though perhaps not quite as old as Plato says) that came from some point in the Atlantic Ocean, who's homeland met with some calamity. Everything else is negotiable, these other points are not.

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nekozuki

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   posted 03-16-2006 08:38 PM                       
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Well, if you think about anatomically modern humans are suspected to have been around for 2 million years. The official timeframe is now 200,000 years. Look at how far we've progressed now. So it is possible the Atlanteans might've established their civilization in 28,000BC

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" Om Vasudevaya Namaha!"
With loving reverence, I bow to Lord Vishnu!

"Man is made by his belief. As he believes, so he is." - Lord Krishna, Bhagavad Gita

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docyabut
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Rate Member   posted 03-16-2006 08:42 PM                       
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repeat:)
Rate Member posted 03-16-2006 03:52 PM
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Not to mention this island faced the country Gades. If there was a huge continent in the Atlantic ocean, it would not only have faced Gades, but two other continents:)or other islands. Why did the writings only specify a small little land such as Gades? I believe it was Tartesso at the mouth of the Guadlquiver leading into the atlantic ocean

They say that Tartessus is a river in the land of the Iberians, running down into the sea by two mouths, and that between these two mouths lies a city of the same name. The river, which is the largest in Iberia,
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docyabut
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Rate Member posted 03-16-2006 04:05 PM
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Some scholars believe that Oceanus originally represented all bodies of salt water, including the Mediterranean Sea and the Atlantic Ocean, the two largest bodies known to the ancient Greeks. However, as geography became more accurate, Oceanus came to represent the stranger, more unknown waters of the Atlantic Ocean (also called the "Ocean Sea"), while Poseidon ruled over the
Mediterranean.Inland seas?

If it was in the middle of the ocean, Oceanus would have been the ruler over Atlantis , Not Poseidon.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oceanus
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Ulf Richter

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   posted 03-16-2006 09:23 PM                       
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Exactly, docyabut !

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Ulf

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Ulf Richter

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   posted 03-16-2006 09:31 PM                       
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Nekozuki, Apollo, and others,

I will repeat here what I just wrote in the "New Atlantis Charter" thread, for clearifying the "Atlantic Ocean" question:


"Dear Thorwald,

"I think Cicero's idea about the charter is good and all, but I still consider it to be in the Atlantic. "

"Why? It's useless pseudo-science. It cannot be.
Thorwald"

I think you are mixing up two different things.

You - and also the other 4 initiators of the Charter - are convinced, that modern geological research exclude the existence of an island-continent in the middle of the Atlantic Ocean which sunk down 9600 BC.

But Plato wrote in his Timaeus and Critias very clear, that the Atlanteans came from outside the Pilars of Heracles, they came from islands or coasts of the Atlantic Ocean.

There can be debates if this "Atlantic Ocean" was in fact the Lake Tritonis in Tunesia, the Black Sea, the Red Sea, the western part of the Mediterranean, and if the "Pillars of Heracles" were in fact the Dardanelles, the Bab el Mandab Strait etc.,and I will not call these theories unscientific.

But the greatest probability has the theory, that you have to read Plato´s texts as they were written by him, and for Plato were the "Pillars of Heracles" the Gibraltar Strait, and the Atlantic Ocean was the Atlantic Ocean, and Atlantis must have been anywhere outside the Gibraltar straits. This is not unscientific, but the most scientific opinion when you take Plato´s texts as historical source and not as invention."

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Ulf

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Ulf Richter

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   posted 03-16-2006 09:58 PM                       
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I think my post in another thread will fit here also, so I copy it:

"Only look at the ship from 1250 BC found near Uluburun/Turkey. Its load showed, that it was in steady trade service in the eastern part of the Mediterranean, if not further. It contained not less than 10 tons of copper bars produced in Cyprus and 1 ton of tin bars of unknown origin, it contained an Egyptian scarabeus with the inscribed name of queen Neferteri, and it contained amber from the Baltics. This ship contained as freight more than 12 stone anchors of the same type Greg Little has found in his antique harbour structure near Bimini. And this wooden ship had a length of 15 meters and a width of 5 meters, exactly the size of the "Nina", the best of the three ships of Columbus on his first voyage when he discovered America.

This is proved archaeological evidence from a time 150 years before the Phoenicians founded Gades, according to the antique legends."

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Ulf

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cicero
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Rate Member   posted 03-17-2006 05:44 AM                       
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Originally posted by Apollo:
Plato didn't write the story down

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b) We assume the possibility, that Plato or the priests etc. made mistakes. Then we FIRST can try to investigate these errors themselves. And SECONDLY we can try to investigate Atlantis elsewhere.
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No, placing Atlantis in Sicily would be pseudo-science. As a wise man once said, how many elements of a story are you allowed to change and still have it be the same story?
Apparently, in your case, the answer would be, "all of them."

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Well, who dares to tell Apollo, that he is revealing more about him than about me in his postings? Who will tell him the difference between interpreting something and changing something?
And I have to mention it again: I do NOT place Atlantis in Sicily, how many times I have to tell you this again and again? You know the difference between an idea - a hypothesis - and a theory? I hope you do.
Thorwald

[ 03-17-2006, 05:46 AM: Message edited by: cicero ]

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cicero
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Rate Member   posted 03-17-2006 05:49 AM                       
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Originally posted by nekozuki:
Cicero have you been to the depths of the Atlantic Ocean? Didn't think so. The moon has been explored more than our oceans.

the ancients knew where the Mediterranean was
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1. You heard already about satelites and sonar?
2. Which ancients did know the mediterranean? The ancients before 1200 BC e.g.? I do not think so, that they knew it fully.
Thorwald

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cicero
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Rate Member   posted 03-17-2006 05:53 AM                       
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quote:
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Originally posted by Apollo:
[QB]Plato's originals have been missing for perhaps two thousand years. Consult with your professors if you don't believe me.
 
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I consulted my text-critical translation which lists all different known versions of the greek text with their sources. There are about 40 papyri and similar sources which contain parts of the texts, from which the text could be compiled again. Sorry for you, but the arabic trace is wrong. Forget it. It seems to be a hoax living in this forum specially :-)
Thorwald

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cicero
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Rate Member   posted 03-17-2006 05:56 AM                       
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quote:
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Originally posted by docyabut:
docyabut
Rate Member posted 03-16-2006 04:05 Some scholars believe that Oceanus originally represented all bodies of salt water, including the Mediterranean Sea and the Atlantic Ocean, the two largest bodies known to the ancient Greeks. However, as geography became more accurate, Oceanus came to represent the stranger, more unknown waters of the Atlantic Ocean (also called the "Ocean Sea"), while Poseidon ruled over the
Mediterranean.Inland seas?
If it was in the middle of the ocean, Oceanus would have been the ruler over Atlantis , Not Poseidon.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oceanus

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I have bad news for you: Plato didn't use the word "Ocean" to name the sea outside the Pillars. Translations containing this word are simply wrong. Plato uses "thalassa" or "pelagos" which simply means "sea" - and not "Okeanos", which is something very very different.
Thorwald

[ 03-17-2006, 05:58 AM: Message edited by: cicero ]

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cicero
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Rate Member   posted 03-17-2006 06:02 AM                       
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Originally posted by Ulf Richter:
Nekozuki, Apollo, and others,
I will repeat here what I just wrote in the "New Atlantis Charter" thread, for clearifying the "Atlantic Ocean" question:

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Well, I will repeat my answer, too:

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Originally posted by Ulf Richter:
As scientific evidence of commercial sea trade with wooden ships as Columbus used them 2300 years later,
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Single voyages across the Atlantic - yes. But regular traffic - no. A big army crossing the Atlantic Ocean to conquer the Mediterranean - absolutely no.

Anchors: Stone anchors look equally all over the world.
Ships: The construction of the Nina is quite different to the Uluburun ship.
http://www.uluburun.de/bilder/segel3.jpg
http://my.execpc.com/~washman/nina1c.gif

Thorwald

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nekozuki

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   posted 03-17-2006 06:17 AM                       
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Seeing a sonar map and satellite images is completely different from being there. I can see a picture of Mt.Everest or a map of it and say wow. But when I'm there then I'm really saying WOW!

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" Om Vasudevaya Namaha!"
With loving reverence, I bow to Lord Vishnu!

"Man is made by his belief. As he believes, so he is." - Lord Krishna, Bhagavad Gita

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Tom Hebert1
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  posted 03-17-2006 07:25 AM                       
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quote:
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Originally posted by nekozuki:
Seeing a sonar map and satellite images is completely different from being there. I can see a picture of Mt.Everest or a map of it and say wow. But when I'm there then I'm really saying WOW!
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It amazes me how closed-minded this guy really is. And he wants to take the scientific approach! Supreme irony, wouldn't you say?
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nekozuki

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   posted 03-17-2006 02:57 PM                       
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quote:
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Originally posted by Tom Hebert1:

quote:
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Originally posted by nekozuki:
Seeing a sonar map and satellite images is completely different from being there. I can see a picture of Mt.Everest or a map of it and say wow. But when I'm there then I'm really saying WOW!
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It amazes me how closed-minded this guy really is. And he wants to take the scientific approach! Supreme irony, wouldn't you say?
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*sigh* But don't worry he's not the worst we've had here.

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" Om Vasudevaya Namaha!"
With loving reverence, I bow to Lord Vishnu!

"Man is made by his belief. As he believes, so he is." - Lord Krishna, Bhagavad Gita

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Ulf Richter

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   posted 03-17-2006 03:26 PM                       
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Thorwald,

Certainly the Uluburun ship had another construction than Columbus´caravelles. But their size is comparable. All the first explorers after Columbus used caravelles as a relatively fast and safe type which could load a maximum amount of freight.

Now you are postulating: single voyages across the Atlantic in prehistoric times -yes. But regular traffic -no !

This may be your private opinion, but it has nothing to do with science. Science must always be open for the possibility of new discoveries, and when new discoveries have been made, which don´t fit into the theories which are valid up to this time, than it is necessary to change or modify the former theory. Boreasi has brought a lot of discoveries which are proving a regular trans-Atlantic traffic in prehistoric times, and every day new discoveries are made in America. I believe that the official scientists cannot close their eyes any longer and must accept these evidences, earlier or later. Please, do the same !

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Ulf

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cicero
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Rate Member   posted 03-17-2006 05:13 PM                       
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quote:
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Originally posted by Ulf Richter:
Certainly the Uluburun ship had another construction than Columbus´caravelles. But their size is comparable.

This may be your private opinion, but it has nothing to do with science. Science must always be open for the possibility of new discoveries
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Size is nothing, the way of construction is all, sorry for that, but I cannot accept your idea.
Again a regular traffic is not possible, the ships were'nt able to do it. It is more a lucky thing, if they managed the passage. From the time of the Phoenicians the ships maybe were able, but at the same time we are well informed what happened, so it was possible, but clearly not realized.
Thorwald