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ATLANTIS & the Atlantic Ocean 1 (ORIGINAL)

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Author Topic: ATLANTIS & the Atlantic Ocean 1 (ORIGINAL)  (Read 8618 times)
Bianca
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« Reply #255 on: December 27, 2007, 08:38:35 am »








cicero
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Well Apollo I do NOT want all and everybody to support the charter's intention, but only those, who are willing and able to understand and accept its principles. I am not here to gather as many support as possible. Maybe this is the reason, why you consider my efforts to be "meager".

You feel rejected, simply because you ARE rejected - because the charter's principles are not your's.

But rejection and disagreement is quite a different thing than insulting somebody. Maybe this is the reason, why you consider my "insultings" to be "a bit lame" - it is not insulting, but just rejection of somebody (you) polemizing in my direction.

Thorwald

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Smiley4554

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  posted 03-15-2006 09:55 AM                       
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There is a place for discussing the Charter, guys. Take the discussion there.

Please stick to the topic.
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« Reply #256 on: December 27, 2007, 08:39:44 am »









cicero
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Ok, even the name "Atlantic Ocean" did not derive from Atlantis, as some could believe for first guess. The Atlantic Ocean got its name from the Titan Atlas, a mythological figure, and got it before Plato lived, terminus ante quem is Herodotus, who mentions the name "Atlantic sea" in his Histories (I 202) for the first time.

And this mythological figure is of course something totally different than king Atlas of Atlantis. They have nothing in common. A punished Titan bearing the world, and a king of an empire.

Furthermore, after the investigation of the sea ground by modern means it is clear, that a big island could not have been submerged there.

Conclusion: The Atlantic Ocean has clearly nothing to do with Atlantis - if it existed, it existed elsewhere.

Thorwald
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« Reply #257 on: December 27, 2007, 08:41:19 am »








cicero
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Ok, even the name "Atlantic Ocean" did not derive from Atlantis, as some could believe for first guess. The Atlantic Ocean got its name from the Titan Atlas, a mythological figure, and got it before Plato lived, terminus ante quem is Herodotus, who mentions the name "Atlantic sea" in his Histories (I 202) for the first time.

And this mythological figure is of course something totally different than king Atlas of Atlantis. They have nothing in common. A punished Titan bearing the world, and a king of an empire.

Furthermore, after the investigation of the sea ground by modern means it is clear, that a big island could not have been submerged there.

Conclusion: The Atlantic Ocean has clearly nothing to do with Atlantis - if it existed, it existed elsewhere.

Thorwald
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« Reply #258 on: December 27, 2007, 08:43:41 am »








Boreasi

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   posted 03-15-2006 02:10 PM                       
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Cicero,

1."The island was larger than Libya and Asia put together"
2. "and was the way to other islands, and from these you might pass to"
3. "the whole of the opposite continent which surrounded the true ocean"
4. "for this sea which is within the Straits of Heracles is only a harbour, having a narrow entrance,"
5. "but that other is the ocean, and the surrounding land may be most truly called a boundless continent." (Timaeus, 24-25)

This occurs as a pretty good and rather clear description of the Atlantic Ocean. From what I can understand it is Amzaingly clear, considering the time it is made. Agree? 
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« Reply #259 on: December 27, 2007, 08:44:41 am »








cicero
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quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Boreasi:
Cicero,

1."The island was larger than Libya and Asia put together"
2. "and was the way to other islands, and from these you might pass to"
3. "the whole of the opposite continent which surrounded the true ocean"
4. "for this sea which is within the Straits of Heracles is only a harbour, having a narrow entrance,"
5. "but that other is the ocean, and the surrounding land may be most truly called a boundless continent." (Timaeus, 24-25)

This occurs as a pretty good and rather clear description of the Atlantic Ocean. From what I can understand it is Amzaingly clear, considering the time it is made. Agree?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Yes. But: If you cannot see any way and no possibility to interprete these passages as errors, misunderstandings or whatever, then you should be convinced, that Atlantis never existed.

You said: "considering the time it is made". Which time? The time when Atlantis submerged? The time of Solon? Or that of Platon?

For my part I can say: I see possibilities to interprete it, so a proof against the existence of Atlantis is not given. But I have no proof for something else, so far.

Agree?

Thorwal
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« Reply #260 on: December 27, 2007, 08:45:45 am »








nekozuki

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   posted 03-15-2006 02:41 PM                       
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Bahama Bank, azores islands, Celtic Shelf, these all fit in the Atlantic, ocean levels were lower the time Plato said Atlantis sank.

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With loving reverence, I bow to Lord Vishnu!

"Man is made by his belief. As he believes, so he is." - Lord Krishna, Bhagavad Gita

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Boreasi

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   posted 03-15-2006 03:05 PM                       
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The time Plato wrote his essays - is normally defined to the time of his life.

As far as I know the original Plato is lost, but the content was saved - due to Arabic translations, that survived the midle ages - before they got translated back - to Greek. Is that correct?

Whatever the time-span of Platos life, whatever the story behind his sources - there is no other way than reading Plato on the terms of Plato. And that alone.

Even then we`re out on a limb - in terms of science, since we dont have a clear set of reference-sources to Platos manuscripts and story.

(Being a sicentist its somewhat surprising that you are confused about such a thing...!)

Obviously there are several rooms for critical views on such a text. But given the basic trust you already expressed in Platos text - in general - it`s somehow inconsequent not to entrust one of the most critical passages. Especially since the lines in question is of the few passages thats testable!

Check on todays Atlas - made by sattelites - and it does show that Platos description match the reality with amazing precision.

Besides, dont you read the Principles of Logics before you are allowed to attend a study in the German universities? Than you should know that the phrase "Yes, but" basicly means "No".

1. So - what is it - with my last reply (see above, please) - that you dont agree to?!

2. Please rephrase your last paragraph, since I am not able to - with my bare eyes - get the semantic impact and logic of this statement (quote);

"I see possibilities to interprete it, so a proof against the existence of Atlantis is not given".
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« Reply #261 on: December 27, 2007, 08:46:47 am »








cicero
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quote:
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Originally posted by nekozuki:
Bahama Bank, azores islands, Celtic Shelf, these all fit in the Atlantic, ocean levels were lower the time Plato said Atlantis sank.
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Not a good idea. 9000 years before Solon? Forget it. Only somebody, who has absolutely no idea about human history can assume that. It is pseudo-science.
Thorwald

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cicero
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quote:
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Originally posted by Boreasi:
As far as I know the original Plato is lost, but the content was saved - due to Arabic translations, that survived the midle ages - before they got translated back - to Greek. Is that correct?

Whatever the time-span of Platos life, whatever the story behind his sources - there is no other way than reading Plato on the terms of Plato. And that alone.

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1. I think the texts haven't survived only in arabic language, they are original, with small mistakes. The highest probability of mistakes coming into the story is BEFORE Platon wrote the story.

2. Unfortunately you have obviously no idea about the typical errors in ancient texts and what was the context of thinking of them. What could ancient people believe, what not?

You should learn a lot about that, then you will be able to study Plato in a better way.

Thorwald

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cicero
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quote:
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Originally posted by Boreasi:
you should know that the phrase "Yes, but" basicly means "No".

2. Please rephrase your last paragraph, since I am not able to - with my bare eyes - get the semantic impact and logic of this statement (quote);
"I see possibilities to interprete it, so a proof against the existence of Atlantis is not given".
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1. No. "Yes,but" = Plato talks of the Atlantic, no doubt, but he is NOT the original author of the story, if Atlantis existed, and so he could be in error. Is this so difficult to understand?

2. I have no proof, that Atlantis is an invention by Plato, ok? If have no proof for any location hypothesis, ok?

Thorwald
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« Reply #262 on: December 27, 2007, 08:47:45 am »








nekozuki

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   posted 03-15-2006 03:37 PM                       
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quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by cicero:

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by nekozuki:
Bahama Bank, azores islands, Celtic Shelf, these all fit in the Atlantic, ocean levels were lower the time Plato said Atlantis sank.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Not a good idea. 9000 years before Solon? Forget it. Only somebody, who has absolutely no idea about human history can assume that. It is pseudo-science.
Thorwald
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

And you do realize a lot of human history was lost when the Library of Alexandria burned down. Written history is the only thing we have to understanding a culture, the dates of certain events, and so on. Archeaology and science can't conclude everything Cicero. A lot of people on this forum know human history but they believe in possibility too.

But you are right though, Atlantis is not Plato's story.
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« Reply #263 on: December 27, 2007, 08:48:54 am »








Apollo

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   posted 03-15-2006 09:48 PM                   
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quote:
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Originally posted by cicero:
Ok, even the name "Atlantic Ocean" did not derive from Atlantis, as some could believe for first guess. The Atlantic Ocean got its name from the Titan Atlas, a mythological figure, and got it before Plato lived, terminus ante quem is Herodotus, who mentions the name "Atlantic sea" in his Histories (I 202) for the first time.

And this mythological figure is of course something totally different than king Atlas of Atlantis. They have nothing in common. A punished Titan bearing the world, and a king of an empire.

Furthermore, after the investigation of the sea ground by modern means it is clear, that a big island could not have been submerged there.

Conclusion: The Atlantic Ocean has clearly nothing to do with Atlantis - if it existed, it existed elsewhere.

Thorwald
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Talk sense, Cicero, I and others could hardly feel rejected by your charter when none of us here lobbied to have it presented to us in the first place. Your skills lie in propaganda, not research. And, to be honest, they are lacking in propaganda as well.

And yet, let us get back to the Atlantic Ocean. It is irrelevant whether the Atlantic got it's name from either Atlas or Atlantis. The point is, the Greeks, Solon, Plato among them, knew where the Atlantic was well before the Atlantis story was even said to be told. They knew where it was in 570 bc, back when Solon first heard the tale and, equally, they knew of it in 350 bc back when Plato completed Critias. There is a clear description of the Mediterranean, the Pillars of Hercules and the Atlantic Ocean in Timaeus. If you are one of the many who choose to ignore both the geography as well as the naming in the ocean in the dialogues, then, as I said earlier, you are not looking for Atlantis.

As for the idea of their being no sunken continents in the Atlantic, what makes you think it has to be one? Since it is impossible for a continent to sink, most likely Plato was only refering to the capital city sinking, or a portion of an island. There are sunken cities along the coastlines of Africa and Europe, the Atlantic Islands that do exist there have been subject to landslides (not to mention EARTHQUAKES) in the past, Strabo's Geography even refers to four such islands in the Atlantic that the Greeks once believed to have existed there, off the coast of Iberia alone. The Atlantic is not simply the place where Plato sets Atlantis, it's also simply the best place to look.

Only those who wish to disqualify it in favor of their own favorite pet theories refuse to consider it.

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« Reply #264 on: December 27, 2007, 08:49:51 am »








Apollo

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   posted 03-15-2006 09:53 PM                   
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quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by nekozuki:
Bahama Bank, azores islands, Celtic Shelf, these all fit in the Atlantic, ocean levels were lower the time Plato said Atlantis sank.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Those and others, Nekozuki. Contrary to popular opinion, there actually haven't been a lot of expeditions into the Atlantic to find Atlantis. One was performed by Couseau, who also spent time in the Mediterranean, the others were performed by the Russians (eastern Atlantic, Celtic Shelf) and, of course the A.R.E Society in the Bahamas. Each one has reported findings.

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Apollo

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   posted 03-15-2006 10:08 PM                   
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quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by cicero:

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Boreasi:
As far as I know the original Plato is lost, but the content was saved - due to Arabic translations, that survived the midle ages - before they got translated back - to Greek. Is that correct?

Whatever the time-span of Platos life, whatever the story behind his sources - there is no other way than reading Plato on the terms of Plato. And that alone.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

1. I think the texts haven't survived only in arabic language, they are original, with small mistakes. The highest probability of mistakes coming into the story is BEFORE Platon wrote the story.

2. Unfortunately you have obviously no idea about the typical errors in ancient texts and what was the context of thinking of them. What could ancient people believe, what not?

You should learn a lot about that, then you will be able to study Plato in a better way.

Thorwald
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

You tend to assume a great deal, Thorwald. In the first place, the highest probabability of errors occuring would not be when the story was first relayed, but it would be during it's various copying over the years. In fact, we don't have the originals of either Plato or Aristotle at all, but copies. Plato's academy was destroyed with the advent of Christianity, along with (as Nekozuki notes, the Library of Alexandria) and whatever hope may have lay in finding Plato's originals has been lost.

The oldest copy of Timaeus is Calcidious, which is in Latin, not Greek, and even then, dates some seven hundred years after he wrote it. It is only partially completed, but the Alantis sections are intact and all confirm the earlier dates and it's placement in the Atlantic Ocean.

As for the other dialogues, Boreasi is correct in assuming that they were lost to the world until they were rediscovered in about the thirteenth century, and they weren't discovered in Greek, but in Arabic.

After they were re-discovered, they were translated into a host of different languages, among them ancient Greek, so, in effect, you are not reading Plato's originals at all, but rather a version of them several times removed from what he originally wrote.

I trust that answers your question.

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« Reply #265 on: December 27, 2007, 08:51:33 am »








nekozuki

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   posted 03-16-2006 06:30 AM                       
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The Atlantic Ocean was named the Atlantic well before the Atlantis story was written down thus verifying that Atlantis was named after the Atlantic.

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"Man is made by his belief. As he believes, so he is." - Lord Krishna, Bhagavad Gita

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Tom Hebert1
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  posted 03-16-2006 06:50 AM                       
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As most of us agree, the Atlantic Ocean is the only logical place for Atlantis to have existed if it existed at all.

Plato gives some support for the idea of an island/continent but also he talks about a capital city. It may have been both, like New York, New York. At any rate, whichever land mass we are looking for, it can only be found in the Atlantic.
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nekozuki

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   posted 03-16-2006 07:36 AM                       
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After looking at Boreasi's info I would say so.

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"Man is made by his belief. As he believes, so he is." - Lord Krishna, Bhagavad Gita

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Smiley4554

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  posted 03-16-2006 08:47 AM                       
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3 cheers to Nekosuki, TomHebert1, Apollo & Boreasi for excellent posts.

It is my opinion that the previous writings (as far back as they can go) were actually derived from recitations carried down through the ages since they had no means of written language.

I also believe that the advent of the "mythos" was wholely added to the original story, because
as time went on, the idea of a sunken land was almost "unbelievable",
that the civilization that they had heard of was "unbelievable" because their current civilization was nowhere near anything that they were hearing,
and that the only way this could have existed was that they had to be some form of higher beings which, eventually, they called "gods".

Mankind's thinking has never basically changed, and neither did the BASIS of the story of Atlantis. The actual story is still there - just surrounded with myths that were tacked on by people who could not fathom a civilization of such grandeur.

We think the same way that the ancients thought - as far as basics go.

How many times have any of you said something only to surprised to find out in an old newspaper or magazine or historical document that it wasn't a new thought at all, but was the same thought of someone 100's of years ago?

Speech changes; culture changes; religions change; governments change & come & go; BUT, THOUGHT PROCESSES REMAIN THE SAME. And that is what happened when the recitations began adding the "gods" aspect. It was a "religious" change which no longer exists, but fascinates us as mythology.

FACT is usually shrouded over with added ideas, thoughts, and cultural changes, BUT the ORIGINAL fact is at the heart of the story.

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« Reply #266 on: December 27, 2007, 08:53:05 am »








Boreasi

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   posted 03-16-2006 09:21 AM                       
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Cicero,

Unfortunately you have obviously no idea about the typical errors in ancient texts and what was the context of thinking of them. What could ancient people believe, what not?

You should obviously learn a lot about that, then you will be able to study Plato in a better way. If you`re able to ask for some assistance I can recomend you send Riven a PM.

[ 03-16-2006, 09:24 AM: Message edited by: Boreasi ]
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cicero
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Originally posted by Apollo:
> If you are one of the many who choose to ignore
> both the geography as well as the naming in the
> ocean in the dialogues, then, as I said earlier,
> you are not looking for Atlantis.

Well, I already said it: There are two possibilities:
a) We assume, that Plato did not write down an errornous story. Then it is clear: It is not true. There is no such island in the Atlantic Ocean. You can search, where you want. There is no way out.

b) We assume the possibility, that Plato or the priests etc. made mistakes. Then we FIRST can try to investigate these errors themselves. And SECONDLY we can try to investigate Atlantis elsewhere.

The rest is pseudo-science.

Thorwald

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cicero
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Rate Member   posted 03-16-2006 01:26 PM                       
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Originally posted by Apollo:

> In the first place, the highest probabability of
> errors occuring would not be when the story was
> first relayed, but it would be during it's
> various copying over the years.

Wrong. The highes probability is oral tradition and translation. But not copying.

> As for the other dialogues, Boreasi is correct
> in assuming that they were lost to the world
> until they were rediscovered in about the
> thirteenth century, and they weren't discovered
> in Greek, but in Arabic.

Wrong. We have the complete texts in Greek.

> After they were re-discovered, they were
> translated into a host of different languages,
> among them ancient Greek,

Amusing :-)))

> I trust that answers your question.

O yes, thanks *smile*

Thorwald
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« Reply #267 on: December 27, 2007, 08:54:01 am »








nekozuki

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You know if it wasn't for Galileo thinking outside the box of what was accepted as a fact in his day where would we be now? The people who believe in possibility are the ones who will make a great discovery.

Cicero have you been to the depths of the Atlantic Ocean? Didn't think so. The moon has been explored more than our oceans.


By the way last time I checked it said Atlantis was beyond the Pillars of Heracles, everyone on this board should know what beyond means.It doesn't say anything about it being in the Mediterranean, the ancients knew where the Mediterranean was, at least last time I checked they did because they would trade all over the Mediterranean.
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« Reply #268 on: December 28, 2007, 01:45:48 pm »








Apollo

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quote:
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Well, I already said it: There are two possibilities:
a) We assume, that Plato did not write down an errornous story. Then it is clear: It is not true. There is no such island in the Atlantic Ocean. You can search, where you want. There is no way out.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Plato didn't write the story down, Solon wrote it down from writings transcribed in the Temple of Neith in Sais, Egypt, then the writings passed to Plato, who used it to form the basis for Critias. This is rudimentary knowledge for any one investigating Atlantis. The fact that it was unaware to you until now only goes to show that you're a rank amateur simply trading on the name of Atlantis for his own purposes.


quote:
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b) We assume the possibility, that Plato or the priests etc. made mistakes. Then we FIRST can try to investigate these errors themselves. And SECONDLY we can try to investigate Atlantis elsewhere.

The rest is pseudo-science.
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No, placing Atlantis in Sicily would be pseudo-science. As a wise man once said, how many elements of a story are you allowed to change and still have it be the same story?

Apparently, in your case, the answer would be, "all of them."
Smile:


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« Reply #269 on: December 28, 2007, 01:46:49 pm »








nekozuki

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What's with the fricking pseudo-science crap now? It's like a trend word. It's almost as annoying as the word poser.

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"Man is made by his belief. As he believes, so he is." - Lord Krishna, Bhagavad Gita
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