Author Topic: ATLANTIS & the Atlantic Ocean
Helios
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posted 05-14-2006 02:33 PM
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It can be seen that in the area of the present Azores and Canaries, which are most often pointed out as the remains of the sunken Atlantis, there had been no sizeable land area.
It can also be seen that in the west of Europe, where now the North Sea is situated, and around the British Isles, during the last Ice Age there had existed a vast area of land, large enough, without any stretch, for a plain two by three thousand stades.
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Clearly, Plato's measurements were off, or else there is something we are not seeing yet. If one places Atlantis in the Atlantic Ocean, the two of the three best candidates would be in the Canaries and Azores, with the third being in the Bahamas region.
the Azores>>>Geologist Christian O'Brien suggests that these islands were once part of a bigger landmass. Stone buildings and a statue were said to be found on the smallest island, Corso, upon their original discovery.
the Canaries>>>Prone to massive landslides in the past, perhaps there is one that we missed.
Bahamas>>>According to information I've read here, the natives of the area claim the Bahamas Islands once comprised a single massive island.
None of these islands in themselves, even made larger, would fit the dimensions of Plato's Atlantic Island. Then, maybe he was referring to the size of the empire itself (islands amidst the ocean) when he stated it was "larger than Libya and Asia combined."
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"This power came forth out of the Atlantic Ocean, for in those days the Atlantic was navigable; and there was an island situated in front of the straits called the Pillars of Heracles; the island was larger than Libya and Asia put together..."
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Posts: 406 | From: Rhodes (an island near Cyprus) | Registered: Jun 2004 | IP: Logged |
Huggy
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posted 05-14-2006 02:43 PM
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http://dusk2.geo.orst.edu/djl/viz/mar_ve2.gif--------------------
As Above So Below.
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Posts: 1442 | From: Native forest | Registered: Apr 2005 | IP: Logged |
Huggy
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posted 05-14-2006 02:48 PM
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On the western side of Meru, O king, is Ketumala. 2 And there also is Jamvukhanda. Both are great seats of humanity, O king. 3 There, O Bharata, the measure of human life is ten thousand years. The men are all of a golden complexion, and the women are like Apsaras. And all the residents are without sickness, without sorrow, and always cheerful. The men born there are of the effulgence of melted gold. On the summits of Gandhamadana, Kuvera the lord of the Guhyakas, with many Rakshasas and accompanied by tribes of Apsaras, passeth his time in joy. Besides Gandhamadana there are many smaller mountains and hills. The measure of human life there is eleven thousand years. There, O king, the men are cheerful, and endued with great energy and great strength and the women are all of the complexion of the lotus and highly beautiful. Beyond Nila is (the Varsha called) Sweta, beyond Sweta is (the Varsha called) Hiranyaka. Beyond Hiranyaka is (the Varsha called) Airavata covered with provinces. The last Varsha in the (extreme) north and Bharata's Varsha in the (extreme) south are both, O king, of the form of a bow. These five Varshas (viz., Sweta, Hiranyaka, Elavrita, Harivarsha, and Haimavat-varsha) are in the middle, of which Elavrita exists in the very middle of all. Amongst these seven Varshas (the five already mentioned and Airavata and Bharata) that which is further north excels the one to its immediate south in respect of these attributes, viz., the period of life, stature, health, righteousness, pleasure, and profit. In these Varshas, O Bharata, creatures (though of diverse species) yet, live together. Thus, O king, is Earth covered with mountains. The huge mountains of Hemakuta are otherwise called Kailasa. There, O king, Vaisravana passeth his time in joy with his Guhyakas. Immediately to the north of Kailasa and near the mountains of Mainaka there is a huge and beautiful mountain called Manimaya endued with golden summits. Beside this mountain is a large, beautiful, crystal and delightful lake called Vindusaras with golden sands (on its beach).
The last Varsha in the (extreme) north and Bharata's Varsha in the (extreme) south are both, O king, of the form of a bow.
The last Varsha in the (extreme) north and Bharata's Varsha in the (extreme) south are both, O king, of the form of a bow.
The last Varsha in the (extreme) north and Bharata's Varsha in the (extreme) south are both, O king, of the form of a bow.
[ 05-14-2006, 02:49 PM: Message edited by: Huggy Bear ]
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As Above So Below.
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Posts: 1442 | From: Native forest | Registered: Apr 2005 | IP: Logged |
Briwnys
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posted 05-14-2006 04:43 PM
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More than any other culture, the people of Gaul and the British Isles have a rich tradition populated with uncanny visitations from the ocean's depths and cities sunken by the wrath of the sea, so it is easy to believe that something momentous must have happened to this land and its people, culminating in a series of events so catastrophic the memory still lingers in the myths and legends of the surrounding countryside. Recorded history tells us almost nothing for the people of this land came late to the written word; yet, it is possible to draw a broad outline of this distant past from the scant records, filling in the blanks with newly discovered genetic, archeological and geological data.
At the seaward end of the Dyfi Valley in Wales, you can sometimes see the ancient remains of a submerged forest. These decaying stumps of 3,500 year-old trees once surrounded the sunken cities of a great kingdom called Cantref y Gwaelod. Its many towns, farms and gleaming cities were protected from the sea by a series of sluices and dams but years of neglect weakened the defenses. One night in the depths of winter during the highest tides of the season, a gigantic storm produced a huge surge that swept over the dam as one great wave and the whole of the kingdom vanished beneath the sea. Some of the ancient roadways and part of the dam system, it is said, are still visible out in the bay during the lowest tides of the year.
Lyonesse, a kingdom that lay between Land's End and St. Michael's Mount in Cornwall, is another realm submerged beneath the waves in the blink of an eye. At certain tides, the muffled chiming of bells can still be heard, while it was reported for centuries that fishermen would sometimes snag roof tiles in their nets.
St Michael's Mount, a lofty pyramidal tidal island exhibiting a curious combination of slate and granite, rises just off the shore of Mount's Bay in Cornwall. Its name in Cornish means "the grey rock in the wood", which may stem from a time before the bay was flooded, since it is an accurate description of a mountain set in a woodland. Local legends tell of a forest that sunk at the same time as the flooding of Lyonesse.
Attempts have been made to place the sinking of Lyonesse somewhere at the end of the first millennium of the current era, but no entries related to the place have been found in any of the records of that period. We do know of other places lost to the sea around this time, though the process took much longer. The sinking of the central plain that once made the Scilly Isles one landmass began during the Bronze Age. More than five hundred Neolithic and Bronze Age sites above the present high water line have been excavated, and, at low tide, rectangular and square field walls, hut circles, graves and cists show clearly that the whole central area between the islands of St Mary, Tresco, Bryher and St Martin was once a fertile plain surrounded by the hills and crags that are now islands and rocks. Scilly was still one island in Roman times but most of it was marshy ground. It was not until the Tudor period that the last part of this marshland sank, leaving the islands as we know them today.
Across the antediluvian plain now covered by the waters of the English Channel, the sunken city of Ys lies in the Bay of Douarnenez off the coast of Brittany. The Brythonic Llydaw - the Breton Peninsula - shares a numinous heritage with the Gaelic Lochlann as the home of otherworldly creatures, for Brittany has always been regarded as a land of marvels where places like the forest of Brocéliande offer a home to fairies and wizards, and drowned cities hint at a mystical world, lost, like Atlantis, beneath the green waves of the Atlantic.
According to the legend, Gradlon, the King of Cornwall, made Ys his capitol. He owned a great fleet that he used to fight against his enemies, often in distant countries where the weather was cold. He was an excellent sailor and strategist and often won his battles, plundering the enemy boats and filling his chests with gold and trophies, so that the fame of his city spread throughout the world.
Ys was protected from the ocean by a strong dyke and by a gate built into the dyke to take the outflowing tidal water. Either by treachery or by accident, the gate was left open and the sea rushed in, inundating the city and the surrounding country. After the sinking of Ys, Gradlon moved his capitol to Quimper, which raises the question, why would the king of Cornwall move his capitol to Brittany unless Cornwall and Brittany were parts of the same kingdom? And did they also occupy the same geographic landmass before the sinking of Ys?
A possible answer may be found in The Mabinongion, a collection of medieval Welsh stories translated by Lady Charlotte Guest in the 19th century. The story of "Branwen, Daughter of Llyr" concerns the marriage of the sister of Bran and Manannan to the King of Ireland, her mistreatment at his hands and the war that ensued. When Bran set out to rescue his sister, the oldest translations state that he traveled primarily by land as he crossed between the islands of Britain and Ireland: "Bendigeidfran and the host… sailed towards Ireland, and in those days the deep water was not wide. He went by wading. There were but two rivers, the Lli and the Archan were they called, but thereafter the deep water grew wider when the deep overflowed the kingdoms."
http://www.geocities.com/blessed_isles/Lochlann/Images/Europe9560bc.jpgAlthough largely based on early medieval historical events, scholars agree that some references in The Mabinongion may go as far back as the beginning of the Iron Age, around 800 BCE. The problem with this particular reference is that the separation of Ireland from Britain occurred much earlier. Dates on the freshwater sediments found on the shelf of the Irish Sea, coupled with the results of geophysical modeling of Earth crustal rebound from ice loading, suggest a severance of the land bridge connection between Britain and Ireland occurred around 10,000 BCE. And the final inundation of the land bridge linking the island of Britain to the mainland of Europe has been traced to the events that created the Straits of Dover around 6500 BCE.
http://www.geocities.com/blessed_isles/Lochlann/Page2.htmlBriwnys
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To those who understand, no explanation is necessary; to those who do not, no explanation is possible
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Posts: 661 | From: East Texas | Registered: Sep 2005 | IP: Logged |
Boreasi
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posted 05-15-2006 05:11 PM
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Well, the point is that the place was overran by water, at the time when the great flood appeared.
Scandinavia was overran. And it rose again. As the ocean-level rose with it. Though, - the reaction to the disappearance of the ice-cap over-running Scandinvania was big enough to induce a tectonic pressure that made Scandinavia itself to rise twice as much as the general rise of the ocean-level. Thus the inner part of Fenno-Scandina are believed to have been the centre of the Scandinavian-Russian ice-cap - because the northern part of the Botnic Bay have risen 220 metres, pluss the rising of the ocean-level, believed to have been some 160 metres.
Today the rising of the Scandinavian Penninsula have lasted for 10.000 years. Today we also know that the speed of the rising was great at first, kick-started by the sudden down-sliding of the ice-cap, filling the ocean and rising its level - some 10-13.000 years ago. The first 200 metres rise happened within the first 300 years, thereafter rising 200 meters more in 10.000 years - gradually slowing down. Presently we're down to some 1/3 cm a year - so soon we should be comming to a full stop of the tectonic aftermath of the Scandsinavian ice-time.
Simultaniously the last glaciers of the poles seems to disapear, as do the glacier covering Greenland. Thus we may have to adjust once again to a new type of climate, as our ancestors did - wherever they lived - when ice-time occurred and the global climate changed deastically. When they could survive that cataclysm, we should still have a fair chance surviving ours - somehow. Looking into the reality of our Atlantean ancestors - that crossed the oceans 10.000 years ago - we might even learn a thing or two about how to handle climatical or global changes. As long as we still have Scandinavia we don't need the Atlantic Ridge to explain the Atlantean "hartland" and geography.
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Trinity
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posted 05-15-2006 10:37 PM
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Lyonesse, a kingdom that lay between Land's End and St. Michael's Mount in Cornwall, is another realm submerged beneath the waves in the blink of an eye. At certain tides, the muffled chiming of bells can still be heard, while it was reported for centuries that fishermen would sometimes snag roof tiles in their nets.
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Has evidence ever been found that Lyoness ever existed? Far as I know, it is a folk legend based on the real disappearance of ancient Dunwich, which also mentions the muffled chiming of bells.
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Briwnys
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posted 05-15-2006 11:47 PM
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Attempts have been made to place the sinking of Lyonesse somewhere at the end of the first millennium of the current era, but no entries related to the place have been found in any of the records of that period.
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Lyonesse, like many of the other cities mentioned, have never been specifically proved to have existed. The persistance of the legends and some of the evidence, such as sunken forests,recovered artifacts and similarity of the accounts, does indicate there is some validity to these stories.
In September 2003, evidence of two Stone Age settlements was found in the British North Sea, dating back as far as 10,000 years. The cities, located more than 500 meters off the Tyneside coast, were submerged as sea levels rose after the last ice age.
David Miles, chief archaeologist at English Heritage, said, "We know that there is a prehistoric Atlantis beneath the North sea, where an area equal to the size of Britain attached us to the continent. This discovery gives us a stepping stone into this unknown world."
http://s8int.com/water9.htmlBriwnys
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Posts: 661 | From: East Texas | Registered: Sep 2005 | IP: Logged |
rockessence
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posted 05-16-2006 10:29 AM
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Briwnys,
This was specifically spoken of in the Oera Linde papers, and is also discussed in Felice Vinci's new book on Homer: The Baltic Origin of Homer's Epic Tales
http://forums.atlantisrising.com/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=7&t=000116"a prehistoric Atlantis beneath the North sea, where an area equal to the size of Britain attached us to the continent"
In the Oera Linde material, (if I recall) it was at that time and island called Aland, and the sinking of it was horribly shocking, as the people there were considered to be at an extremely high spiritual level.
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"Illigitimi non carborundum!"
All knowledge is to be used in the manner that will give help and assistance to others, and the desire is that the laws of the Creator be manifested in the physical world. E.Cayce 254-17
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Posts: 3128 | From: Port Townsend WA | Registered: Feb 2004 | IP: Logged |
atalante
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posted 05-18-2006 08:04 AM
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The "Graveyard of the Sun" was constructed as a fortified memorial around a meteorite crater at approximately 700 to 400 BC. Previously ca. 5500 BC (=7500 BP) a meteorite had crashed to earth and destroyed Saaremaa, an island off the coast of Estonia.
http://www.muinas.ee/ecp/kaali/en/html/facts.html http://www.saaremaa.ee/eng/tourism/saaremaa/kaali.php ca 2000 BC, a lake formed in the center of the main Kaali crater. It was regarded as a sacred lake by the local peoples.
The local people preserve a legend that Phaethon (of Greek myths), whom the locals call Fetonte, crashed to earth there.
Here is a link which explains the Graveyard of the Sun, and discusses the possibility that Pytheas visited the crater, ca 350 BC.
quote from:
http://webpages.charter.net/anthropogene/arc_vol2_is11.html The Germanic tribes mentioned by Pytheas are the Guiones or Gutones, later known as the Goths who would gathered the amber off the shores and the Teutoni.who appeared to be the middlemen in the amber trade.
The tin trade had Ictis, the amber trade had an equally mysterious locale known as Abalus or Basilia - whose exact location is unknown and whose reputation enjoys almost supernatural renown - being the Germanic Avalon. Tacitus in his account of the Germans makes passing reference to the isle, and if one is willing to accept the veracity of the Oera Linda manuscript, the island may have been a center of the old earth mother religion. In regards to Pytheas, best to pass by these speculations...
Regardless, the ocean's work has erased most of Abalus. Pytheas may have mentioned the destruction that occurred along the coastline 20 years (350 BC) or so before his voyage, that isolated the West Frisian islands from the mainland, and let the sea into the fresh water lake now known as the Zuyder Dee. Later would follow the great inundation that would drive the Cimbri and Teutoni towards their fateful encounter with Rome.
Xenophon claimed Abalus was a three days sail from the coastline and of immense size. Today, the island of Heligoland, the best guess, is hardly immense in any way, though "its red cliffs, two hundred feet high create a reassuring and easily recognizable landmark... an ideal off-shore port-of-trade."- Barry Cunliffe
Most curiously, the priests or priestess's of Abalus ceremonially burnt amber. An offering to the gods of the sky? For as the tale went, amber were the tears of the sisters of Fetonte, who wept along the banks of the Eridanus after his fall from heaven.
The Grave of the Sun
"...the Aests showed him the grave of the Sun, or the place where the Sun fell asleep."
Barry Cunliffe in his book The Extraordinary Voyage of Pytheas the Greek makes no claim that Pytheas ventured into the Baltic sea area, J. Oliver Thomson believes he did in order to learn more about amber and that the Massaliot did indeed visit "the whole of the coasts of Europe."
If he did then the above quote would be confirmation that Pytheas had encountered the Aestii, a Fenno-Ugric people inhabiting present day Estonia. And there is only one spot that would match "the place where the Sun fell asleep."
Off the coast of Estonia is the island of Saarema. Here archaeologists have found the remains of towns (the Asva dig), indicating that during the Bronze Age the island was, relatively speaking, densely populated. Whether these people were the Aests, or if the Aests came later in unknown, but whoever they were enough has been found to indicate a thriving culture, dependent on cattle, agriculture and fishing.
The exact date of their demise is unknown, sometime between 800 BC and 400 BC, the people of the island would suffer an apocalyptic fate. Then storytellers would tell how the chariot of Helios Apollo, driven by the hapless Phaethon (Fetonte) would burn the earth. Now scientists know that a 1000 ton iron meteorite struck Saarema, causing a 20 kiloton blast, larger than the nuclear bomb that destroyed Hiroshima.
A layer of glass spherules and meteor fragments have been uncovered. Six kilometers west of the impact site, the telltale sign of iridium (an impact ejecta) was found in the Piila bog and confirmed through the usual methods such as carbon dating. A layer of charcoal indicates that forest fires must have engulfed most of the island in the aftermath of the blast.
The impact crater is easily found. 350 feet across, the shallow lake known as the Kaali Crater marks the site, surrounded by eight smaller craters. This Estonian website has greater detail on the event.
Recovery was slow in the aftermath of Kaali, though people eventually did return - crop cultivation started again after a hundred years.
The lake would become a sacred place - and exploited economically once the fear was gone and it was realized that the meteorite fragments could be smelted into iron. By the time of Pytheas, a log fortress with five towers had been erected at the site, a stone wall built around the crater.
A Flight of Fancy
The Massaliot returned home, and published his account, the book eventually finding a home in the ill-fated Library of Alexandria. There are no details how he fared after his epic voyage or whether he undertook similar expeditions.
Has too much been read into the exploits of Pytheas by later researchers? Probably. There appear to be conflicting quotes about the exact location of the grave of the sun. Was the statement meant to refer to refer to the far reaches of the Atlantic beyond Thule as interpreted by Cunliffe - or did he indeed venture east into the Baltic to Kaali?
We do know that Pytheas did indeed sail beyond the known world of his age. And we do know that Kaali was indeed a catastrophic event, only remembered in myth. Whether they have any connection, is probably imagination, but well worth the try.
endquote
[ 05-18-2006, 09:49 AM: Message edited by: atalante ]
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Posts: 2423 | From: Tucson AZ USA | Registered: Apr 2003 | IP: Logged |
Desiree
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posted 05-23-2006 09:36 PM
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Here is some info on the satellite discovery of Ubar, said to be called, "the Atlantis of the Sands."
Iram of the Pillars
Iram of the Pillars (إرَم ذات العماد, Iram dhāt al-`imād), also called Ubar or Wabar or the City of a Thousand Pillars, is a lost city apparently on the Arabian Peninsula.
Ubar was mentioned in ancient records and was spoken of in folk tales as a trading center of the Rub al Khali Desert in the southern part of the Arabian peninsula. It is estimated that it lasted from about 3000 B.C to the first century A.D. It became, according to legends, fabulously wealthy from trade of the coastal regions to the population centers of the middle-east and even into Europe. The city became lost to modern history, and was thought to be only a figment of mythical tales.
The Qur'an (e.g., Sura 89) says that Iram was a city built by the tribe of Ad, the great-grandchildren of Noah. It was a rich and decadent city, filled with wicked people who dabbled in the occult. Its king Shaddad defied the warnings of the prophet Hud, and God smote the city, driving it into the sands, never to be seen again, thus becoming a veritable Atlantis of the deserts. The ruins of the city lie buried somewhere in the sands of the Rub' al Khali. Iram (otherwise spelled Irem) became known to Western literature with the translation of The Book of One Thousand and One Nights.
Re-Discovery of Ubar/Iram
Recent discoveries have brought Iram out of the realm of myth into history.
The first came when tablets found in the archives of Ebla were found to mention Iram by name.
A more recent discovery occurred when archaeologists examined photographs taken of the Persian Gulf Coast from the space shuttle Challenger in 1984. These photos revealed some buried cities along the ancient frankincense trade route dating from 2800 BC and 100 BC. One, on the eastern edge of Oman in the Dhofar province, proved to be a city known as Ubar, which is usually identified with Iram.
In the early 1980s a group of researchers became interested in the history of Ubar. They used remote sensing satellite ground penetrating radar data from NASA, and identified old caravan routes and the point where they converged. Excavations uncovered a fortress which protected the caravan routes and the all-important water source, which was a large limestone cavern underneath the fortress. Evidence of wide-spread trade was also found. As the Ubarites consumed the water from underground, the water table would fall, leaving the limestone roof and walls of the cavern dry. Without the bouyant support of the water, the cavern would have been in danger of collapse. It seems to have done so some time between 300-500 AD, destroying the city and covering over the water source. After this collapse, the city perished.
In 1992, the city was believed to have been rediscovered by Nicholas Clapp, an amateur archaeologist, by using the NASA data. Founded in 900 B.C. and located at one of the few watering holes, the ancient city had been an important trading post on the Incense Road, thus linking the frankincense groves of the coastal Omani Mountains to the markets of the rich cities of the north. Over the centuries the city, now called Ubar, had prospered and grown larger, until one day half of the city collapsed into a giant sinkhole and was abandoned to the sands by its citizens.
Ubar was not discovered through the use of NASA data although this did help identify possible sites. the camel trails were already known about, having been discovered by a previous expedition in 1953. The discovery of the ruins of Ubar was made almost by chance when the team [lead by Ranulph Fiennes] decided to investigate ruins at the site of Shis'r fort which had been previously identified as dating from the 16th century. These remains turned out to be what was left of the 'Atlantis of the Sands'[a name given to it by T.E. Lawrence] Ubar (or Irem/Iram).
In reality, Ubar was not the name of the city, but the name of the region. In the 2nd centiry AD Ptolemy made a map which called the area "Iobaritae", i.e. the Ubarites. The Qur'an called them "the people of 'Ad". Later legends referred to the fabulous wealth of the city and used the region name Ubar to designate it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ubar 