Were the Sea Peoples a confederacy led by Atlantis?

[BlueHue]

Mainstream scholarship has reached the conclusion that the Sea Peoples were guided by the Atlantean warmongers ,and deliberately invading Memphis.

Wonderful, and what do you base this on?
Wonderful, and what do you base this on?

DEAR 'APOLLO'

BLUE HUE MEANS A CYNIC VIEW ON LIFE
Hi, my name is 'BlueHue', you don't know we yet we have'not made a conversational-contact yet ,  My name is a metaphor, for a Blue colored Hue is a cynic-view in Life,  opposite a Rose colored view.


IN THE LAND OF THE BLIND,
I got one blind( myopia-gravis-)eye and ( writer's-)arthritis so I may mis-type a few words and not notice it on the review !


ALL FACTS ON PEOPLES-of-the-SEA were allready discovered in a PUBLICATION OF 1975
ABOUT the Sea-Peoples as a 1200 bc Pirate attacking force by an unknown mandator this is not unknown to the learned-Public.   So it seems Odd, that YOU did not know dr.Velikovsky's researched  version. You probably have not Read Dr Velikovsky's book "Peoples-of-the-SEA" from 1975 aviable in the secondhand Bookshop:"Foyles"in london.


NON OF THE AUTHORS OF Sea-Peoples- BOOKS HAVE QUOTED Dr VELIKOVSKY
Talking about differend authors who have mis-managed the issue is a waste of time and space.Dr. Velikovsky was a Geologist turned ancientHistorian but lacked the proper Inside-Jargon so he was shunned by the Academic ancientHistorians as an uneducated interloper, wanting to change established Egyptian Chronology at their costs.


During the lifetime of Dr. Velikovsky others have speculated about this issue without quoting Dr.V's findings in his 1970-Book: "The Peoples-of-the-Sea"  which is not an nation overwhelming Egypt, but just a slim Persian expeditionary force fighting at leasure in Summertime forgetting about a little-Tsunami-Like NileFlood.


BUILDING A THEORY ON A FICTICIOUS DATE: 1200 bc.
Betancourt(in 2000 ad.) & Nancy Sandars ( 1970: "The Seapeoples LONDON Thames & Hudson.)
Have noticed the Greek names in the attackers records from the Egyptian defender Ramesses-3 but thought that these were from Greek tribes BEFORE the Greeks had colonized the greek mainland, naming the towns & rivers after their Homeland(= Atlantis) ATHENS= ATHE-Ni="New-Atlantis.)But the year 1200 is a ficticious error THIS "Event" happened inbetween 380-350 bc.


WHO WAS RAMMESSES-3 ??
Rammesses-3 lived /reigned officially from 1200 until 1175 bc. But the present Egyptian Chronology devised by the Archaeologist Emil Brugsch in 1850 was a misquotation,  from the Aegyptiaka of Priest Manethoon.(dd 250 bc.)
The actual Rammesses-3 was not in the 19-th Dynasty(>Manethoon.1200 bc) but in the 27-th Dynasty(.Velikovsky.380 bc.). . . This Pharaoh's real name was NECTANEBO-1 originally he was posted as a persian vice-roy of Egypt but declared himself independant, which provoked an Expedition from the persian Court with Persian Bow-men  and a retinue of Greek ( vassal-King-)mercenaries.  No body expected that the bulk of the greek citystates were still nominally in Persian hands in 380 bc, after the "glorious"Battles agains the Persian invaders at Marathon & Thermopilay,  So no connection was layed between "Peoples-of-the-Sea"and a Persian expedition to "Rebel"Egypt.


Dr.Velikovsky, found out that the egyptian Chronology from 1500 until 1000 bc is NON--EXISTANT, and the year 1500 bc is the year 1000 bc with NOTHING inbetween. The socalled greek empty/ dark ages.)


Rammesses-3 adversaries were his former Persian Overlord ArtaXerxes-2 and ArtaXerxes-3. . .  in 345 bc,ArtaXerxes managed to regain Egypt for  a brief 10 years before Alexander the Great had himself crowned in 335 bc, as the New Pharaoh by the (ex-Persian) Highpriest of Amun at the Shiva-Oasis in North Lybian Desert: named HERIHOR.


WHO COMMANDED THESE "SEA-PEOPLES" ??
The 380 bc attack on the -then- egyptian Capital Memphis, on orders of ArtaXerxes-2 were carried out by the Persian admiral Pharnabasos and a greek meercenary marine-General Iphicrates, who thought that they had just to sail-up the Nile, brake a chain crossing the Embankments at the Canopis brance but this failed so they sailed on to the Sebenittic brance and attacked there.


But this second attack faltered too because the Nile-rising season had started and the attacking fleet was pulled back into  open seas where the greek mariner Soldiers  carrying long spears for land-use, were of little avail.


As an Alzheimer's Case I am not able to sum-up the various Greek continguents that participated in this Sea-Coast Niledelta-Brawl, but it was said that the mercenaries-commanding King AGESILAUS, from Sparta was rich enough to use and Bribe  the entire Fleet, to attack the Persians at bay, instead , so he was ousted as a -possibly-untrustworthy invasion commander and the more dutyfull General iphicrates put in his place( reads like a Starwars movie ! with Darth Vader replacing a senior Admiral, with  Captain Piët.)


WHY WERE THE SEA-PEOPLE-ATTACKERS FIGHTING THEMSELVES at the end.??
The Greek navalcommander AGESILOS, that had led the first failed attack felt slighted and withdrew his forces, which were the hanassed men with the helmet-sun-disk between two spiked/horns.


So at the second attack fewer men were aviable, besides when the leftover/remaining greek mercenaries ( with the spiked helmets.)senced that the Egyptians were waiting for them in the Delta-Bull-rushes and pursued them to open Sea, helped by the Nileflood turning them away from the mainland, they revolted from their Persian Commander Admiral Pharnabasos, and started to attack their Persian allies( the ones with the Feathered headgear.the socalled: "Pereset/Phillistines".) And so by this last failed attack, Egypt  was saved for the day.( Rammesses-3 was in the end, 30 years later killed by a persian-inspired palace-Plot.)


So, WHO WERE THESE:"SEA-PEOPLES" ??
I think Dr. V. has found the only solution for this "enigma" of these "Pirates/ Seapeoples "from 1200 bc. And his contemporary historians/adversaries must have felt likewise, yet MARK PONTA,  told me that he had read Dr V. "Peoples-of-the-Seas"  and found it very intriging, but did not believe in this solution.     The Persians were ofcourse not well versed in greek and used old assyrian names for the greek( Perhaps indeed from old records, from before the time that they entered Greece and still lived in Arabia as Hyksos.)


HOW CREDIBLE WAS dr.VELIKOVSKY ON THE "PEOPLES-of-the-SEAS" ??  in: 1970
Dr.V. may not be infaillable on detailles, but  he had a large "Database" avant -La -Lettre, he was a 'internet-Detective with connections to various befriended international Scholars & Scholiasts, that reviewed his discoveries, before publication.  In Delft ( 90.000 inh.)Prof.emeritus OOSTERHUIS is the only posessor of his first-Print-books.


VELIKOVSKY's revised- Chronology's-TIMELINE as PUBLISHED IN  2005, by: "BlueHue"
Thanks to him/his writings I was able to establish a Timeline for the Atlantis-(=Egyptian-)Kinglist based on his "Revised Chronology.and the synchronity that he suggested between the Greek Thebans and the originally Egyptian Theban Monarchy.


His CRITICS NEVER-the-LESS TRIED TO:  " EMULATE " HIM,
Others like Dr David Rohl( Book:"A test-of-Time".) and Ahmed Osman ( book: "Was YUYA, Arch-father JACOB"?)and last but not Least: N.C.POPE ( TimeLine of dr V, but with grave errors.) were not impressed, but have vehemiently tried to "Emulate" him, by stating that Dr.V's 500-non existing years were more convientently if reduced to 250 non-existing years and thus they have tampered with the only solution just out of jeallousy.


GEORGEOS-Diaz-MONTEXANO
 Started the ATLANTIS-Hype in 2003 by a dogmatic traditional concept of Atlantis-in-the-Atlantic.  But he warned as annoying whissle-Blower that the greek Language is a double-bottomed"Tourist-Trap' for casual translators, BUT  NObody listened, the 100 Oceanographic Atlantologists happily promoted their 100 DIFFEREND Location Ideas on a FALSE Document !   GEORGEOS wanted to provoke a discussion about the Wrong Translation(-s) by proposing Cape-SPARTEL as Atlantis following the traditionally thus WRONG translation, but his ploy to fool his colleguae became a success, instead of a ploy-revelation, they fell for it, now GEORGEOS wants to correct himself by acting as a while-blower( on himself & Plato's wrong translations.)

BESIDES the whole "Atlantis" issue has been mismanaged from the start of the Atlantis Hype back in 2003, When Linguist GEORGEOS-Diaz-Montexano, in vain, reminded the 100 participants at the "Melos World-Conference- on Atlantis-Location, in 2005," that each Word in the Greek Language is a double meaning trap:


OCEANIC ATLANTOLOGISTS THEORIES ARE BASED ON A TRANSLATION FORGERY
Dear Georgeos explained for dumb, english,  subborn, non comprending Amateur historians, that in the Greek language especially when used uncommonly as a flowerly poetical non-daily-usage, one letter misquoted by a copier meant a whole differend sentence( a  structural problem that has also riddled the Latin-Bible with faults, from the greek translation of the Bible in 410 ad, from Greek into Latin. by Saint Gerome at Magna-Leptis> today Tripolis capital of Lybia.) So that we might say that Plato's Atlantis Satyre and the Bible are heavily misquoted Documents.
Even the Koran was once translated from the( Syriac-)Greek into modern"Arabic"(=Kufic.) with faults by Al Tabari in 930.( Christopher Luxenberg, a German linguist has written a book about it, recently.)


WHAT IS THE KORAN TELLING ABOUT ATLANTIS ?
The Koran was issued as a cheaper and shortened issue of the Greek bible for the Arab subject kingdoms of the Byzantine Empire in 630 ad, by Emperor Heraklios, who used an already 300 years old Greek basic text, which was read unchanged by these Arabs, until the again-wrong re-translation from syriac-Greek, into the "Modern" Arabic/Kufic by translator Al-Tabari in 930 ad.  ATLANTIS is called "IREM" and ATLAS is called "KING-AD" from:  ADEN. ( or:"SHAH-AD.")


The ( False-)Arab-origin invented by Al-Tabari, has not been contested by the Arabs because Al-Tabari wrote in the Preceipt that it was ordered by Mohammed himself that the Koran should only be read in this original Arabic form.( in the original Greek versions of the Arab Koran( called the PESHITTA.) it says indeed that the Emperor "handed-out" versions of the Latin originals, tanslated into Syriac-Greek .  This text was cannonized before 379 ad, when the Trinity was not yet"invented", thus  the Church-Law-lore of the Trinity, is not present in Mohammedanism.( but as the 3 DevilsPillars.)
and that henceforth from 930 the Shortened Bible or KORAN was to be continued in the Greek language.   And the Title of Augustus was to be read in Greek as Basileios.( KALIPH meant lieutenant of the Emperor.)


WHO WAS MOHAMMED ??
The  Emperor Heraklios as Chief Author of the Koran was regarded as "Mohammed"( =Augustus.)but a better explanation is, that I discovered that his Gold-DENARIUS-Coins bore his likeness, with a Tertagrammaton in his hand,  and on the reverse was embossed a:"Big-EMM" meaning that his gold Denarius was worth thousand arab-Maradevi's, But the greek speaking Arab Subjects mistook it for his personal name:"Big-EMM" thus Moh-AMMED was Heraklios!


MARK PONTA says that "IN HIS YEARS OF STUDYING ATLANTIS, HE IS FINALLY IMPATIENT FOR : "REAL-EVIDENCE". . .
THE Sea Peoples were not what they seemed to be, their Date is wrong and their Motive unknown.(= Expeditionary Force!)  Appy TIS sequence to "Atlantis: the ( nick-)Name is wrong it means: "Never-Never"Land, the present date is wrong, the motive for Atlantis Demise(= a CIVIL WAR, not THE WRATH-OF-THE-GOD POSEIDON. was unknown.)
HOW MUCH mor uncertain things about Atlantis is Mark prepared for to accept as REAL evidence ? ( Atlantis is ADEN?)


Sorry for having disgressed a bit from the 1200 bc Seapeoples,  but now you and -hopefully- other members too know that the solution to this THREAD's  "QUEST "has been found and further diverting with variations on the same theme, has little merit.


APPOLLO
I said - hopefully- because my previous post which was on the same solution was not quoted by you, for two reasons: You missed my post( which seems impossible because it was the last Post before yours.)  Or most unlikely: You did read my post, but found it superflous to comment on it, in other words, You critisize the solutions of others but have not come-up with a solution yourself.

Anyway, Now, You cannot deny having seen or read THIS Post, because if correct, you have an automatic avertisment if your Posts are commented on.


ATLANTIS, TROY the SEA-PEOPLES  and the HiTTiTES are 500 YEARS APART.
Sure They belong to the Greek "Oikumene or "Known-World" but not at the same time. The year 855 bc is impoprtand though:  in 860 Troy was sacked and burned by greeks in the covert service of Egypt that wanted to break the Assyrian-EGYPTIAN trade- Boycott, that was imposed upon Egypt by assyrian emperor :Assurnassirpal-2 ( 880-860 bc.)for plotting with his army commander to have him deposed in a Palace-revolution. ( a known Fact, not fiction.)Egypt used Troy as a Customs-place. 


HITTITES FROM ANATOLIA WERE NOT THE SEA-PEOPLES, BECAUSE,
 in 855 bc, Atlantis-City was soaked by the LAST Flood, a Tsunami, it survived and in 550 bc Tudhalliyas-4( who is discoverd by dr.Velikovky to be in reality:  King  Nabonid, tranported Aden's Poseidon Temple-Stéles to Bogazköy-Jazzilikaya(= present Hattushas.)  So now the Assyrian Archaeologists think  since 1880, that they had discovered an unknown Hittite-Kingdom in Anatolia, Whilst the REAL Hittites were the HATTI from Hadramaut, also known as THENHU/ RETHENUE ( Greek: DANN.)or short CHETI.


ATLANTIS MAY BE A MYTHICAL HIGHTECH SOCIETY, IT's TEMPLE WALL RELIEFS WERE RATHER PRIMITIVE.
Since nobody ever saw artefacts from: Atlantis, these artefacts now at Hattushas/Boghazköy, taken from the Temple-mound still above sealevel at ADEN,  were not recognized as such.  The strange Hieroglyphs from Aden are not decyphered yet but must be Proto-Greek/ Hyksos script, not unlike |Korean or Tiffangy-Script, of the Lybian Berbers


At another Website: www.Atlan.Org. I have posted 400 of these"explanations"and yet nobody read them, all members preferred the Mythical-but wrongly translated Text of Plato.  above an historical explanation that Plato's Text is not genuine and that Plato mis-used a truncated DANAos-Myth into the Bargain, when preparing his Atlantis Satyre for the BirthdayParty of Tyrant(= Persian-vassal-King.) Dyonysios-1 of Syracuse, in 366 bc.( Comparing the Altantis Demise with the Athenian demise in the ill-fated"RAID-ob-Syracuse, in 415 bc.)


Only
"JULIA" a Medical Practitioner, and a practical nurse swaggered between believing my ( and 'GEORGEOS'-)case of Plato's wrong translation and the overwelming believe in the "unchanged original Text"( after 2.000 years ??)


To cut a lengthly un-intresting narrative short I say: if commenting on the ABOVE is too much :"Work", Please
READ my DAMNed Subscript and comment on THAT!


Sincerely:             " BlueHue [/color] "   dd. May 3,  2007

[Mark of Australia]

Hi Atalante ,

 I have been hearing for years how the Keftiu were said to have disappeared from Egyptian records during the 18th dynasty ,but have not seen anything of detail about it ,, This is a very important issue I believe ,. Please,I beg you ,tell me what you know ! 

[atalante]

Mark,

Here is a link that discusses all the ancient Egyptian mentions of the Keftiu, beginning in the 22nd cenrury BC.  It seems relevant that these Keftiu people entered Egyptian historical records as peaceful "good guys".  But then around 1522 -1470 BC the Keftiu entered an aggressive phase, which synchronizes with the era immediately after the Hyksos had been expelled from Egypt.   The following link suggests that the Egyptian hieroglyphic term "Islands in the Midst of the (Mediterranean) Sea" was a reference to both the Cyclades Islands and proto-Mycenae.

One really amazing detail is that the ethnic group called "Isles in the Midst of the (Mediterranean) Sea" continued to have contacts with Egypt until the so-called "Dorian invasion" of Greece, which coincided with the end of Mycenaean Greek civilization (and/or also coincided with the ca. 1200 BC invasions of Egypt by the so-called "Sea Peoples").

quote from:
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1310/is_1988_Sept/ai_6841328

From the twenty-second century BC, Egyptian writings began to mention Kaftiou, an Egyptian adaptation of the Semitic name for Crete, Caphtor, which also appears in the Bible.


At the beginning of the second mtllennium BC, there was a thriving trade between Middle Kingdom Egyptians and Cretans of the period known as Middle Minoan. Many Egyptian objects from that era, including everyday utensils, scarabs used as seals and a diorite statuette, have been found in Crete, while Minoan pottery in the Kamares style, and silver vases showing an Aegean influence, have been discovered in a temple near Luxor.

Around 1500 BC, Egypt cast off the yoke of the Hyksos(1) and emerged from its traditional isolationism to become an international power, strengthened by a series of military victories. Phoenicia and Syria fell under its sway, and the Egyptian fleet controlled the Phoenician ports, probably extending its influence as far as Cyprus. This Egyptian presence created a new situation in the eastern Mediterranean basin. The Aegeans of the Late Minoan period and the Mycenaeans of Hellas(2) had thereafter to deal directly with the Egyptians if their merchant ships were to have access to the traditional markets of Palestine and Syria. In all probability, the Cretans and the Mycenaeans came to an agreement with the powerful Pharaoh Tuthmosis III (c. 1479-1425 BC). The tomb of his vizier Rekhmire, at the necropolis of Thebes, depicts Cretan emissaries bearing tribute from their island. The Egyptian inscription describes the scene: "The arrival of the princes from Kaftiou and the islands in the midst of the sea, submissive and with bowed heads before the might of His Majesty Tuthmosis III". There is every reason to believe that these "islands in the midst of the sea" were those of the eastern Mediterranean and the city of Mycenae in the Peloponnese.

Brown-skinned Aegeans, wearing brightly coloured loincloths and with thick manes of hair hanging to their shoulders or worn in one or more plaits bound around their foreheads, became a familiar sight to the Egyptians as they threaded through the streets of Thebes to bear their gifts, called "tribute" by the Egyptians, to Pharaoh: large, ornate goblets with handles shaped like animals, or elongated vases with small handles, decorated with floral motifs or horizontal polychrome lines. Towards the middle of the fifteenth century BC, the Cretan civilization foundered, probably as a result of internal power struggles. Small wonder, then, that the name of Kaftiou should have disappeared from Egyptian sources after the end of that century. However the expression "islands in the midst of the sea" continues to occur frequently in these writings, before disappearing, in its turn, in the twelfth century BC, when successive waves of the barbarians known to the Egyptians as the "sea peoples" were surging into the Peloponnese peninsula and wreaking havoc. These hordes crossed Anatolia (where they annihilated the Hittites) and Greece, and advanced on Egypt overland across Syria and by sea via the Mediterranean islands. But they were repelled by such powerful Pharaohs as Ramesses II, Merneptah and Ramesses III, who saved Egypt from destruction on a massive scale.

endquote

[atalante]

A major catastrophic event affected the Central Mediterranean region during 1500-1090 BC. It was a collapse of the flank of Mt Etna on the island of Sicily, in the region called Valle del Bove (Valley of the Cattle).  The potential erruption(s) of Mt Etna for that era has only become datable by "cosmic ray exposure dating" during the last decade.  But it was discussed by the ancient historian named Diodorus Siculus.

quote from:
http://www.vulcanoetna.it/en_morfologia_vallebove.php

During the past few years a group of scientists from Manchester University (U.K.) and the Benfield Greig Hazard Research Centre (London, U.K.) has done research on features related to what they believe was the pre-collapse volcanic edifice, and the preliminary results of these studies are haunting (Deeming et al. 2001; K.R. Deeming, personal communication, 2002). Using abundances of a rare isotope of helium, 3He, for dating of rocks in an area known as "Acqua della Rocca" on the outer wall of the Valle del Bove on the southeastern flank of Etna, they revealed that the catastrophic collapse of the Valle most likely occurred much less than 5000 years ago and correlate it with a major eruption about 1500 BC, which is decribed by Diodore of Sicily (Diodorus Siculus). While the studies so far have not revealed clear geological evidence of deposits of eruptive activity related to the collapse, it is possible - if not likely - that like at Mount St. Helens the sudden unloading of a part of the shallow plumbing system triggered a major explosive eruption. Coltelli et al. (2000) report an age of 3210-3090 years before present for a tephra layer consisting of fall and pyroclastic flow deposits on the upper northeastern flank of Etna, which they interpret as a product of phreatomagmatic activity. This might match with the dates (2600-4800 years before present) attributed by Deeming and co-workers to the Valle del Bove collapse.
Diodore's writings indicate that the Sicans, an indigenous people living on the eastern flank of the volcano, were forced by the eruption (and/or the landslide) to migrate to the western part of Sicily. An event of this type can be expected to have caused total destruction and heavy loss of life in the affected areas. Since the "1500 BC" event is the earliest historically recorded eruption of Etna, the volcano entered into the historical record in quite a cataclysmic manner. In the light of earlier studies by Calvari et al. (1998) this event seems to be but the latest episode in a series of sector collapses, as suggested by Guest et al. (1984).
endquote

also http://www.copernicus.org/EGS/egsga/nice01/programme/abstracts/aai0444.pdf

Preliminary absolute dates obtained are 2.6 ± 0.6 ka (large boulder), 3.4 ± 0.8 ka (small boulder), 2.6 ±0.9 (top of waterfall) and 4.8 ± 1.2 (bottom of waterfall) (± 2s error) which all
coincide with a cataclysmic eruption c.1500BC described by Diodore of Sicily
(Bibliotheque Historique, Livre V, 5 & 6). The eruption forced the native
Sicilians (Sicans), inhabiting the eastern flanks of Mount Etna, to migrate to the
west of the island. Being the first identified historical occurrence of such a
catastrophic event is certainly a frightening prospect, most especially for those
highly populated volcanoes currently on the brink of such disaster.
endquote

[BlueHue]

Hi Atalante ,

 I have been hearing for years how the Keftiu were said to have disappeared from Egyptian records during the 18th dynasty ,but have not seen anything of detail about it ,, This is a very important issue I believe ,. Please,I beg you ,tell me what you know ! 

DEAR MARK PONTA,

You have not commented on the Post that came immediately before yours, ( the one in which I tell the reader that I had begotten a Cynic view on life becaus Mark Ponta seems not to read my explanations about the Sea Peoples.

In the Atlan.Org website I had thus to repeat & express myself 400 times , individually before it's 400 members had read my explanation, that "Atlantis"was not in indonesia but in South Arabia( =Yemen Arab.Rep.)


MARK, the discussion about SEA-PEOPLES as Atlanteans is nonscence and You know it!
If you had Dr Velikovsky's Book on the subject carefully than you will have noticed that Dr V. Names the opposing parties by Nation Time and even the names of the Generals that were leading this Persian Expeditionary force from the persian navalbase at Joppa in Palestin, to Memphis in 380 bc( NOT in 1200 bc.)


The Name is a falsehood it actually reads LAKE-PEOPLE, not SEA-PEOPLE, because Palestinians means LAKE-LAND, thus LAKE-PEOPLE.

The name KEFTIU, does indeed mean:"Crete" but in both cases it just reads:"HOLY-LAND". like SRI-LANKA in Hindi.     In Punician it is supposed to mean the "LAND-of-the-PILLARS" namely the very"Pillars"of Hercules, thus  KEFTIU means / is Atlantis.

About the identity of KEFTIU with the Hyksos,
indeed they are the same.   And they were good Fellas, but somewhere along the way of their relationship a virtual-megalomaniac called KAMOSE wanted them out of the country and started to provoke the Chief-ruler Salitis of AVARIS(= near CAYRO.)to take countermessures so kamose could claim legal selfdefence. Luckily this plan failed

Then KAMOSE decided to attack his collegue-Pharaoh's Capital ( I forgot the egyptian name.)Aii or ADEN, where AHMOSE his younger brother ruled, under the pretext that their Halfsister who was Kamose's personal Housekeeper, had fled his household on instignation of AHMOSE and married him.


During the fraternal civil war of KAMOSE  against AHMOSE,  KAMOSE wrote a stele with Moses original DEACLOGUE on it, found by Dr.CARTER for CARNARVON, in 1908 in thes CARNARVON_TABLETTS, Kamose described that he had pillared the Innocent house of his brother and taken all hios good, his maidens his posessions and killed his house animals thus expressing a criminal hatred for his( Innocent-)Brother.


LATER in 400 bc in the Torah of EZDRAS In Persepolis, this MEGALOMANIAC  KAMOSE, became almost a saint and all the vile deeds that Kamose had done were preceded with Gods warning that Thou shallst Not: Pillage thy brothers House nor his wife nor his possesions.


By this translation, it is clear that our revered:"MOSES-the-LAWGIVER" was a topcriminal and a manical-pursuer, of innocent people, a provocator of Evil deeds against humanity.


HE is that Socalled "GOD" whose jeallousy destroyed the World, and ADAM(= Ahmose !) In EDEN(=Aden.) But now that he has been found out, it is of no use crying about spoiled milk.


Moses as megalomanical King & God is water under the bridge, besides, he got his punishment: his mate & Wife Mirjam Left him; his own Daughter bashed his Head with a Candelabre in his Army-Tent. ( Mirjammes real name was: Amose Neferti-Miri-Amun.)and his dauhters name was Sita-Kamose.  We know how he looked like we got tomb pictures of that feller( At Dra-Abu Nagar, in Thebes, valley of the Kings, but I forgot the Tomb nr.)


Atalanta too is speculation on about these SEA PEOPLES, after the very Post( Unread by her.)that Dr Velikovsky had allready solved the "Mysterial provenance of the Sea-Peoples"back in 1970. and that Nancy Sandars, wrote a speculative book of the same tile 5 years later quoting book written after Dr Velikovsky but never quoting him.( Maybe she was afraid to be a laughhingstock of learned Society ?!?



Sincerely   " BlueHue" [/color]

[BlueHue]

There are three groups of invading ( Sea-) Peoples, Around 1200 BC during the reigns of Mernepthah and Ramses III.

But  centuries earlier  also: the Keftiu and 3) their conquered subordinates, called "The isles in the midst of the Sea". 

 the Keftiu disappeared, but Egypt remained  "Isles in the midst of the Sea.    The disappearance of the Keftiu seems to be the hieroglyphic counterpart for the destruction of Atlantis. 

DEAR  ATALANTA,



WOULD YOU PLEASE READ MY REPLIES NR 15 & 17 ( To MARK  PONTA>)and 'APOLLO'( they themselves did not. May-4, 2007
I am replying to Your Reply NR 14, and forgot to mention your name in my earlier reply NR 15.
Now, I am sure that Yours Truly,  has not read my reply Nr.15, after your Piece Nr 14, may I invite You to Comment on my NR 15 anyway?  THANK  YOU.


You are as keen as ever ( on A.R.)for finding related notes on Atlantis.  But the SEA-PEOPLES have been found-out by Dr.Velikovsky allready in 1970 in his Book "S.P."Peoples-of-the-Sea", as comming from JOPPA In Palestine a Persian marinePort  PALESTINE  means litterary: LAKE-LAND, Thus they were LAKE-PEOPLE comming by SEA; not SEA-PEOPLE.


Here he explaned that 1200 bc is a false Date because greek & Persian artefacts and paintings were found in Rammesses-3 Tomb-Temple in MEDINET- HABU, which is impossible if Rammesses-3, had lived in 1200 bc


So Dr V's discovery is that Rammessess-3 must have lived 800 years later during the Persian-domination period, in Egypt and reigned from 380-50 bc, as NECTANEBO-1.( To debuke this discovery professional Egyptologists claim that the Paintings of Greek Traders and persian horses on the tomb walls of Medinet Habu, may have been painted  800 years later, which is a jeallous lie.that Prof Gunnar HeinSohn has commented upon in Dr.V's Favor)


Dr Velikovsky has discovered everything there was to know,
about this PERSIAN INVASION Force, even the names of the Attack Commanders.
 Still 5 years later Nancy SANDARS published her book about the SEA-PEOPLES in which she quotes various authors that published -after- Dr.Velikovsky, without mentioning him and thus continuing a fallacy that keeps people barking-up the wrong tree.


CONCLUSION:
1200 is a FALSE DATE; these SEA-Peoples were Not Atlanteans nor "Hittites-from-Anatolia"
Rammeses-3 ( 20-th Dynasty.)was the NECTANEBO-1 ( =27-th Dynasty.)a contemporary King with King Artaxexes-2( his former overlord against whom he rebelled and managed to repel a persian-naval force sent to recapture Memphis in 380 bc.)


People nevertheless keep making silly suppositions ignoring that Rammesses-3 is out of Chronology, that his name is indeed a boast to remember the days of the Greater Ramesses-2
and that only 5 years after his death in 350-345 bc, ( by a persian inspired court-plot.)Artaxerxes-3 copied the Raid on Memphis from his father Artaxerxes-2, and succeded avoiding the Nile-flood season.


After studying Atlantis for years MARK PONTA is impatient for REAL-EVIDENCE. . .
But he did not reply to my message anouncing that Dr V had allready discovered The Sea-People's SOLUTION,
APOLLO too has failed to answer to my message not for lack of time because he posted immediately after my message to him, answering to a MARK  PONTA, almost "behind my Back" as-if-I do not exist. . . or is he afraid for the historical truth? and wants to pursue only the Myths ?!?

Sincerely Yours, from  " BlueHue " [/colour]

[Majeston]

About the identity of KEFTIU with the Hyksos,
indeed they are the same.   And they were good Fellas, but somewhere along the way of their relationship a virtual-megalomaniac called KAMOSE wanted them out of the country and started to provoke the Chief-ruler Salitis of AVARIS(= near CAYRO.)to take countermessures so kamose could claim legal selfdefence. Luckily this plan failed

Then KAMOSE decided to attack his collegue-Pharaoh's Capital ( I forgot the egyptian name.)Aii or ADEN, where AHMOSE his younger brother ruled, under the pretext that their Halfsister who was Kamose's personal Housekeeper, had fled his household on instignation of AHMOSE and married him.


During the fraternal civil war of KAMOSE  against AHMOSE,  KAMOSE wrote a stele with Moses original DEACLOGUE on it, found by Dr.CARTER for CARNARVON, in 1908 in thes CARNARVON_TABLETTS, Kamose described that he had pillared the Innocent house of his brother and taken all hios good, his maidens his posessions and killed his house animals thus expressing a criminal hatred for his( Innocent-)Brother.


LATER in 400 bc in the Torah of EZDRAS In Persepolis, this MEGALOMANIAC  KAMOSE, became almost a saint and all the vile deeds that Kamose had done were preceded with Gods warning that Thou shallst Not: Pillage thy brothers House nor his wife nor his possesions.


By this translation, it is clear that our revered:"MOSES-the-LAWGIVER" was a topcriminal and a manical-pursuer, of innocent people, a provocator of Evil deeds against humanity.


HE is that Socalled "GOD" whose jeallousy destroyed the World, and ADAM(= Ahmose !) In EDEN(=Aden.) But now that he has been found out, it is of no use crying about spoiled milk.


Moses as megalomanical King & God is water under the bridge, besides, he got his punishment: his mate & Wife Mirjam Left him; his own Daughter bashed his Head with a Candelabre in his Army-Tent. ( Mirjammes real name was: Amose Neferti-Miri-Amun.)and his dauhters name was Sita-Kamose.  We know how he looked like we got tomb pictures of that feller( At Dra-Abu Nagar, in Thebes, valley of the Kings, but I forgot the Tomb nr.)


Sincerely   " BlueHue" [/color]

P1575:1, 140:5.16      
The world's great men have not been afraid to mourn. Moses,      the mourner, was a greater man than either Samson or Goliath. Moses was a      superb leader, but he was also a man of meekness. Being sensitive and responsive to human need creates genuine and lasting happiness, while such kindly attitudes safeguard the soul from the destructive influences of anger, hate, and suspicion.    

 P1009:5, 92:5.8    
Though Amenemope and Ikhnaton both taught in this period, the outstanding religious genius of the post-Melchizedek era was the leader of a group of Levantine Bedouins and the founder of the Hebrew religion -- Moses. Moses taught monotheism. Said he: "Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God is one God." "The Lord he is God. There is none beside him."      He persistently sought to uproot the remnants of the ghost cult among his people, even  prescribing the death penalty for its practitioners. The monotheism of Moses was adulterated by his successors, but in later times they did return to many of his teachings. The greatness of Moses lies in his wisdom and sagacity.      Other men have had greater concepts of God, but no one man was ever so successful in inducing large numbers of people to adopt such advanced beliefs.  

//////////

    


3. THE MATCHLESS MOSES    
 


96:3.1 The beginning of the evolution   of the Hebraic concepts and ideals of a Supreme Creator dates from the departure   of the Semites from Egypt under that great leader, teacher, and organizer, Moses.   His mother was of the royal family of Egypt; his father was a Semitic liaison   officer between the government and the Bedouin captives. Moses thus possessed   qualities derived from superior racial sources; his ancestry was so highly blended   that it is impossible to classify him in any one racial group. Had he not been   of this mixed type, he would never have displayed that unusual versatility and   adaptability which enabled him to manage the diversified horde which eventually   became associated with those Bedouin Semites who fled from Egypt to the Arabian   desert under his leadership.
 


96:3.2 Despite the enticements of the   culture of the Nile kingdom, Moses elected to cast his lot with the people of   his father. At the time this great organizer was formulating his plans for the   eventual freeing of his father's people, the Bedouin captives hardly had a religion   worthy of the name; they were virtually without a true concept of God and without   hope in the world.
 


96:3.3 No leader ever undertook to reform   and uplift a more forlorn, downcast, dejected, and ignorant group of human beings.   But these slaves carried latent possibilities of development in their hereditary   strains, and there were a sufficient number of educated leaders who had been   coached by Moses in preparation for the day of revolt and the strike for liberty   to constitute a corps of efficient organizers. These superior men had been employed   as native overseers of their people; they had received some education because   of Moses' influence with the Egyptian rulers.
 


96:3.4 Moses endeavored to negotiate   diplomatically for the freedom of his fellow Semites. He and his brother entered   into a compact with the king of Egypt whereby they were granted permission peaceably   to leave the valley of the Nile for the Arabian Desert. They were to receive   a modest payment of money and goods in token of their long service in Egypt.   The Hebrews for their part entered into an agreement to maintain friendly relations   with the Pharaohs and not to join in any alliance against Egypt. But the king   later saw fit to repudiate this treaty, giving as his reason the excuse that   his spies had discovered disloyalty among the Bedouin slaves. He claimed they   sought freedom for the purpose of going into the desert to organize the nomads   against Egypt.
 


96:3.5 But Moses was not discouraged;   he bided his time, and in less than a year, when the Egyptian military forces   were fully occupied in resisting the simultaneous onslaughts of a strong Libyan   thrust from the south and a Greek naval invasion from the north, this intrepid   organizer led his compatriots out of Egypt in a spectacular night flight. This   dash for liberty was carefully planned and skillfully executed. And they were   successful, notwithstanding that they were hotly pursued by Pharaoh and a small   body of Egyptians, who all fell before the fugitives' defense, yielding much   booty, all of which was augmented by the loot of the advancing host of escaping   slaves as they marched on toward their ancestral desert home.
 


4. THE PROCLAMATION   OF YAHWEH  
 


96:4.1 The evolution and elevation of   the Mosaic teaching has influenced almost one half of all the world, and still   does even in the twentieth century. While Moses comprehended the more advanced   Egyptian religious philosophy, the Bedouin slaves knew little about such teachings,   but they had never entirely forgotten the god of Mount Horeb, whom their ancestors   had called Yahweh.
 


96:4.2 Moses had heard of the teachings   of Machiventa Melchizedek from both his father and his mother, their commonness   of religious belief being the explanation for the unusual union between a woman   of royal blood and a man from a captive race. Moses' father-in-law was a Kenite   worshiper of El Elyon, but the emancipator's parents were believers in El Shaddai.   Moses thus was educated an El Shaddaist; through the influence of his father-in-law   he became an El Elyonist; and by the time of the Hebrew encampment about Mount   Sinai after the flight from Egypt, he had formulated a new and enlarged concept   of Deity (derived from all his former beliefs), which he wisely decided to proclaim   to his people as an expanded concept of their olden tribal god, Yahweh.
 


96:4.3 Moses had endeavored to teach   these Bedouins the idea of El Elyon, but before leaving Egypt, he had become   convinced they would never fully comprehend this doctrine. Therefore he deliberately   determined upon the compromise adoption of their tribal god of the desert as   the one and only god of his followers. Moses did not specifically teach that   other peoples and nations might not have other gods, but he did resolutely maintain   that Yahweh was over and above all, especially to the Hebrews. But always was   he plagued by the awkward predicament of trying to present his new and higher   idea of Deity to these ignorant slaves under the guise of the ancient term Yahweh,   which had always been symbolized by the golden calf of the Bedouin tribes.
 


96:4.4 The fact that Yahweh was the god   of the fleeing Hebrews explains why they tarried so long before the holy mountain   of Sinai, and why they there received the ten commandments which Moses promulgated   in the name of Yahweh, the god of Horeb. During this lengthy sojourn before   Sinai the religious ceremonials of the newly evolving Hebrew worship were further   perfected.
 


96:4.5 It does not appear that Moses   would ever have succeeded in the establishment of his somewhat advanced ceremonial   worship and in keeping his followers intact for a quarter of a century had it   not been for the violent eruption of Horeb during the third week of their worshipful   sojourn at its base. "The mountain of Yahweh was consumed in fire, and   the smoke ascended like the smoke of a furnace, and the whole mountain quaked   greatly." In view of this cataclysm it is not surprising that Moses could   impress upon his brethren the teaching that their God was "mighty, terrible,   a devouring fire, fearful, and all-powerful."
 


96:4.6 Moses proclaimed that Yahweh was   the Lord God of Israel, who had singled out the Hebrews as his chosen people;   he was building a new nation, and he wisely nationalized his religious teachings,   telling his followers that Yahweh was a hard taskmaster, a "jealous God."   But none the less he sought to enlarge their concept of divinity when he taught   them that Yahweh was the "God of the spirits of all flesh," and when   he said, "The eternal God is your refuge, and underneath are the everlasting   arms." Moses taught that Yahweh was a covenant-keeping God; that he "will   not forsake you, neither destroy you, nor forget the covenant of your fathers   because the Lord loves you and will not forget the oath by which he swore to   your fathers."
 


96:4.7 Moses made a heroic effort to   uplift Yahweh to the dignity of a supreme Deity when he presented him as the   "God of truth and without iniquity, just and right in all his ways."   And yet, despite this exalted teaching, the limited understanding of his followers   made it necessary to speak of God as being in man's image, as being subject   to fits of anger, wrath, and severity, even that he was vengeful and easily   influenced by man's conduct.
 


96:4.8 Under the teachings of Moses this   tribal nature god, Yahweh, became the Lord God of Israel, who followed them   through the wilderness and even into exile, where he presently was conceived   of as the God of all peoples. The later captivity that enslaved the Jews in   Babylon finally liberated the evolving concept of Yahweh to assume the monotheistic   role of the God of all nations.
 


96:4.9 The most unique and amazing feature   of the religious history of the Hebrews concerns this continuous evolution of   the concept of Deity from the primitive god of Mount Horeb up through the teachings   of their successive spiritual leaders to the high level of development depicted   in the Deity doctrines of the Isaiahs, who proclaimed that magnificent concept   of the loving and merciful Creator Father.
 


5. THE TEACHINGS OF   MOSES  
 


96:5.1 Moses was an extraordinary combination   of military leader, social organizer, and religious teacher. He was the most   important individual world teacher and leader between the times of Machiventa   and Jesus. Moses attempted to introduce many reforms in Israel of which there   is no record. In the space of one man's life he led the polyglot horde of so-called   Hebrews out of slavery and uncivilized roaming while he laid the foundation   for the subsequent birth of a nation and the perpetuation of a race.
 


96:5.2 There is so little on record of   the great work of Moses because the Hebrews had no written language at the time   of the exodus. The record of the times and doings of Moses was derived from   the traditions extant more than one thousand years after the death of the great   leader.
 


96:5.3 Many of the advances which Moses   made over and above the religion of the Egyptians and the surrounding Levantine   tribes were due to the Kenite traditions of the time of Melchizedek. Without   the teaching of Machiventa to Abraham and his contemporaries, the Hebrews would   have come out of Egypt in hopeless darkness. Moses and his father-in-law, Jethro,   gathered up the residue of the traditions of the days of Melchizedek, and these   teachings, joined to the learning of the Egyptians, guided Moses in the creation   of the improved religion and ritual of the Israelites. Moses was an organizer;   he selected the best in the religion and mores of Egypt and Palestine and, associating   these practices with the traditions of the Melchizedek teachings, organized   the Hebrew ceremonial system of worship.
 


96:5.4 Moses was a believer in Providence;   he had become thoroughly tainted with the doctrines of Egypt concerning the   supernatural control of the Nile and the other elements of nature. He had a   great vision of God, but he was thoroughly sincere when he taught the Hebrews   that, if they would obey God, "He will love you, bless you, and multiply   you. He will multiply the fruit of your womb and the fruit of your land -- the   corn, wine, oil, and your flocks. You shall be prospered above all people, and   the Lord your God will take away from you all sickness and will put none of   the evil diseases of Egypt upon you." He even said: "Remember the   Lord your God, for it is he who gives you the power to get wealth." "You   shall lend to many nations, but you shall not borrow. You shall reign over many   nations, but they shall not reign over you."
 


96:5.5 But it was truly pitiful to watch   this great mind of Moses trying to adapt his sublime concept of El Elyon, the   Most High, to the comprehension of the ignorant and illiterate Hebrews. To his   assembled leaders he thundered, "The Lord your God is one God; there is   none beside him"; while to the mixed multitude he declared, "Who is   like your God among all the gods?" Moses made a brave and partly successful   stand against fetishes and idolatry, declaring, "You saw no similitude   on the day that your God spoke to you at Horeb out of the midst of the fire."   He also forbade the making of images of any sort.
 


96:5.6 Moses feared to proclaim the mercy   of Yahweh, preferring to awe his people with the fear of the justice of God,   saying: "The Lord your God is God of Gods, and Lord of Lords, a great God,   a mighty and terrible God, who regards not man." Again he sought to control   the turbulent clans when he declared that "your God kills when you disobey   him; he heals and gives life when you obey him." But Moses taught these   tribes that they would become the chosen people of God only on condition that   they "kept all his commandments and obeyed all his statutes."
 


96:5.7 Little of the mercy of God was   taught the Hebrews during these early times. They learned of God as "the   Almighty; the Lord is a man of war, God of battles, glorious in power, who dashes   in pieces his enemies." "The Lord your God walks in the midst of the   camp to deliver you." The Israelites thought of their God as one who loved   them, but who also "hardened Pharaoh's heart" and "cursed their   enemies."
 


96:5.8 While Moses presented fleeting   glimpses of a universal and beneficent Deity to the children of Israel, on the   whole, their day-by-day concept of Yahweh was that of a God but little better   than the tribal gods of the surrounding peoples. Their concept of God was primitive,   crude, and anthropomorphic; when Moses passed on, these Bedouin tribes quickly   reverted to the semibarbaric ideas of their olden gods of Horeb and the desert.   The enlarged and more sublime vision of God which Moses every now and then presented   to his leaders was soon lost to view, while most of the people turned to the   worship of their fetish golden calves, the Palestinian herdsman's symbol of   Yahweh.
 


96:5.9 When Moses turned over the command   of the Hebrews to Joshua, he had already gathered up thousands of the collateral   descendants of Abraham, Nahor, Lot, and other of the related tribes and had   whipped them into a self-sustaining and partially self-regulating nation of   pastoral warriors.
 


6. THE GOD CONCEPT AFTER   MOSES' DEATH  
 


96:6.1 Upon the death of Moses his lofty   concept of Yahweh rapidly deteriorated. Joshua and the leaders of Israel continued   to harbor the Mosaic traditions of the all-wise, beneficent, and almighty God,   but the common people rapidly reverted to the older desert idea of Yahweh. And   this backward drift of the concept of Deity continued increasingly under the   successive rule of the various tribal sheiks, the so-called Judges.
 


96:6.2 The spell of the extraordinary   personality of Moses had kept alive in the hearts of his followers the inspiration   of an increasingly enlarged concept of God; but when they once reached the fertile   lands of Palestine, they quickly evolved from nomadic herders into settled and   somewhat sedate farmers. And this evolution of life practices and change of   religious viewpoint demanded a more or less complete change in the character   of their conception of the nature of their God, Yahweh. During the times of   the beginning of the transmutation of the austere, crude, exacting, and thunderous   desert god of Sinai into the later appearing concept of a God of love, justice,   and mercy, the Hebrews almost lost sight of Moses' lofty teachings. They came   near losing all concept of monotheism; they nearly lost their opportunity of   becoming the people who would serve as a vital link in the spiritual evolution   of Urantia, the group who would conserve the Melchizedek teaching of one God   until the times of the incarnation of a bestowal Son of that Father of all.
 


96:6.3 Desperately Joshua sought to hold   the concept of a supreme Yahweh in the minds of the tribesmen, causing it to   be proclaimed: "As I was with Moses, so will I be with you; I will not   fail you nor forsake you." Joshua found it necessary to preach a stern   gospel to his disbelieving people, people all too willing to believe their old   and native religion but unwilling to go forward in the religion of faith and   righteousness. The burden of Joshua's teaching became: "Yahweh is a holy   God; he is a jealous God; he will not forgive your transgressions nor your sins."   The highest concept of this age pictured Yahweh as a "God of power, judgment,   and justice."
 


96:6.4 But even in this dark age, every   now and then a solitary teacher would arise proclaiming the Mosaic concept of   divinity: "You children of wickedness cannot serve the Lord, for he is   a holy God." "Shall mortal man be more just than God? shall a man   be more pure than his Maker?" "Can you by searching find out God?   Can you find out the Almighty to perfection? Behold, God is great and we know   him not. Touching the Almighty, we cannot find him out."  


      
        
    

[atalante]

Blue Hue,

Most historians agree there was a dark age of some sort between the Mycenaen Bronze Age of Greece and the classical age which began around the time of Hesiod and Homer. 

Velikovsky was calling attention to that Dark Age.  Some authors prefer a 250 year Dark Age.  Although Velikovsky proposed a 500 year dark age. 

I see from your signature that you prefer to locate Atlantis almost entirely within the so-called Dark Age.  You list 1075 - 855 BC as the era of Atlantis.  That is a novel idea.  It could explain why other nations were not writing about Atlantis.

Your line of reasoning is considerably different from mine. 

The pattern that Plato sketched out for Atlantis is that Atlantis temporarily expanded its influence in the Eastern Mediterranean region, and then collapsed.  I think this fits well with the era when the "Isles in the Midst of the (Mediterranean) Sea" came under control by the Keftiu. 

And Plato also proposed that proto-Athens had liberated a group of people in the Mediterranean Sea from domination by Atlantis.  I think this fits well with proto-Mycenaeans superceding the Keftiu as leaders for the "Islands in the Midst of the Sea". 

I prefer to place Atlantis ca. 1500-1250 BC. 

[Mark of Australia]

Hi Maj,Hi Atalante, oh one sec ,I have to reply to the previous posts ,I have fallen behind ,please don't be offended that I not consider your post for now.

Now ,BlueHue ,I am wondering how I should reply to your posts ,but I will humor you ok , here goes , the reason why I replied to Atalante first was because she was before you and I was interested in what she said (i assume atalante is a female name) .   I had intended to get around to your post later since it was such a long post.,I feel like I should have some longer explanation given how cranky you got over it but that is all.  I had intended to get around to it later since it was such a long post. do I have to beg for forgiveness ??

Oh  ,I don't know if this is the right place but too bad, it's kinda relevant since it involves what Bluehue said. When you said "...Sea Peoples as Atlanteans is nonsense and you know it !! "  it reminded me of another 'conflict' I got into with a 'band mate' on msn recently. he said to me " you are immature AND YOU KNOW IT "  lol  .Just thought I'd mention that coz I feel like I am getting into arguments with deluded people a lot recently.(no offence Bluehue)   Well this 'band mate' was the singer in the band ,I played Bass , but the thing was HE COULDNT SING ! lol,and everyone else thought so aswell ,but somehow I was supposedly the bad guy in our argument, ,his delusions of grandeur are breathtaking. it's hard to get it across here ,but his arrogance was so intense and he was extremely condescending in that 'argument' . He had a falling out with the drummer (Mike) ,the day before .Now ,Mike is the nicest guy you would ever hope to meet ,yet he ended up saying to the singer " f*** you " .lol ,that might give you an idea of just how arrogant and condescending the singer is. And that is only the half of it.   That guys logic and reasoning seemed so distorted to my mind ,so naturally I consider if it is me who is deluded, ,and after consideration,errr no ,it aint me. Somehow I don't think he even entertained the thought that he could be wrong.

  Why do I mention this ? well  ,it really is amazing how people can differ  in there views from eachother  so widely , Bluehue believes with 100%  certainty that Velikovsky's theory is correct ,and that Atlantis is in the Arabian Peninsula ,Nikas is equally sure that Atlantis is near Malta, Georgeos...etc etc  ,  I have considered all of these theories because I really want to know what actually happened in the past. But what is the correct answer ? is it Bluehues? or Nikas ? etc.

At the end of the day I want evidence that Atlantis is where you say it is ,empirical evidence ,not myths and translations of documents,etc.
That is what I meant by being impatient for real evidence,Empirical data.

Ok that will do for now ,although I feel like there is more to say .

[Mark of Australia]

BlueHue ,about Velikovsky's chronology rewrite ,when I read his book I found it farfetched what he was suggesting but I could not refute it .He seemed to have sound logic so it is a very interesting case . I would have to look into it again .At the time I thought that he was onto something but I couldn't say what for sure.

I think that it will probably turn out that the histories of the Persian period that resemble events from the time of Rameses III was caused by general historical events repeating in history due to ancestor worship and the like ,nostalgia for past glories which leads a monarch to try to emulate his ancestors achievements thereby creating the illusion of different eras being one and the same under a certain light.

[Majeston]

author=atalante link=topic=564.msg11078#msg11078 date=1178302931]
Blue Hue,

Most historians agree there was a dark age of some sort between the Mycenaen Bronze Age of Greece and the classical age which began around the time of Hesiod and Homer. 

Velikovsky was calling attention to that Dark Age.  Some authors prefer a 250 year Dark Age.  Although Velikovsky proposed a 500 year dark age. 

Atalante,

Good to see you here.   I have an obscure reference to the "dark ages"  which appears to be the times of the mystery cults rise in Greece.
It appears to have lasted for about 1000 years.  I highlight what might be the relevant references.

P1078:5, 98:2.1 A lightly regarded and superficial religion cannot endure, especially when it has no priesthood to foster its forms and to fill the hearts of the devotees with fear and awe. The Olympian religion did not promise salvation, nor did it quench the spiritual thirst of its believers; therefore was it doomed to perish. Within a millennium of its inception it had nearly vanished, and the Greeks were without a national religion, the gods of Olympus having lost their hold upon the better minds.
 
 P1078:6, 98:2.2 This was the situation when, during the sixth century before Christ, the Orient and the Levant experienced a revival of spiritual consciousness and a new awakening to the recognition of monotheism. But the West did not share in this new development; neither Europe nor northern Africa extensively participated in this religious renaissance. The Greeks, however, did engage in a magnificent intellectual advancement. They had begun to master fear and no longer sought religion as an antidote therefor, but they did not perceive that true religion is the cure for soul hunger, spiritual disquiet, and moral despair. They sought for the  solace of the soul in deep thinking -- philosophy and metaphysics. They turned from the contemplation of self-preservation -- salvation -- to self-realization and self-understanding.
 
 P1078:7, 98:2.3 By rigorous thought the Greeks attempted to attain that consciousness of security which would serve as a substitute for the belief in survival, but they utterly failed. Only the more intelligent among the higher classes of the Hellenic peoples could grasp this new teaching; the rank and file of the progeny of the slaves of former generations had no capacity for the reception of this new substitute for religion. 


 P1079:1, 98:2.4 The philosophers  disdained all forms of worship, notwithstanding that they practically all held loosely to the background of a belief in the Salem doctrine of "the Intelligence of the universe," "the idea of God," and "the Great Source." In so far as the Greek philosophers gave recognition to the divine and the superfinite, they were frankly monotheistic; they gave scant recognition to the whole galaxy of Olympian gods and goddesses.
 
 P1079:2, 98:2.5 The Greek poets of the fifth and sixth centuries, notably  Pindar, attempted the reformation of Greek religion. They elevated its ideals, but they were more artists than religionists. They failed to develop a technique for fostering and conserving supreme values.
 
 P1079:3, 98:2.6  Xenophanes taught one God, but his deity concept was too pantheistic to be a personal Father to mortal man.  Anaxagoras was a mechanist except that he did recognize a First Cause, an Initial Mind.  Socrates and his successors, Plato and  Aristotle, taught that virtue is knowledge; goodness, health of the soul; that it is better to suffer injustice than to be guilty of it, that it is wrong to return evil for evil, and that the gods are wise and good. Their cardinal virtues were: wisdom, courage, temperance, and justice. 


 P1079:4, 98:2.7 The evolution of religious philosophy among the Hellenic and Hebrew peoples affords a contrastive illustration of the function of the church as an institution in the shaping of cultural progress. In Palestine, human thought was so  priest-controlled and  scripture-directed that philosophy and aesthetics were entirely submerged in religion and morality. In Greece, the almost complete absence of priests and "sacred scriptures" left the human mind free and unfettered, resulting in a startling development in depth of thought. But religion as a personal experience failed to keep pace with the intellectual  probings into the nature and reality of the cosmos.
 
 P1079:5, 98:2.8 In Greece, believing was subordinated to thinking; in Palestine, thinking was held subject to believing. Much of the strength of Christianity is due to its having borrowed heavily from both Hebrew morality and Greek thought.
 
 P1079:6, 98:2.9 In Palestine, religious dogma became so crystallized as to jeopardize further growth; in Greece, human thought became so abstract that the concept of God resolved itself into a  misty vapor of pantheistic speculation not at all unlike the impersonal Infinity of the Brahman philosophers. 


 P1079:7, 98:2.10 But the average men of these times could not grasp, nor were they much interested in, the Greek philosophy of self-realization and an abstract Deity; they rather craved promises of salvation, coupled with a personal God who could hear their prayers. They exiled the philosophers, persecuted the remnants of the Salem cult, both doctrines having become much blended, and made ready for that terrible orgiastic plunge into the follies of the mystery cults which were then  overspreading the Mediterranean lands. The  Eleusinian mysteries grew up within the Olympian pantheon, a Greek version of the worship of fertility;  Dionysus nature worship flourished; the best of the cults was the Orphic brotherhood, whose moral preachments and promises of salvation made a great appeal to many.
 
 P1080:1, 98:2.11
All Greece became involved in these new methods of attaining salvation, these emotional and fiery ceremonials. No nation ever attained such heights of artistic philosophy in so short a time; none ever created such an advanced system of ethics practically without Deity and entirely devoid of the promise of human salvation; no nation ever plunged so quickly, deeply, and violently into such depths of intellectual stagnation, moral depravity, and spiritual poverty as these same Greek peoples when they flung themselves into the mad whirl of the mystery cults. 


 P1080:2, 98:2.12 Religions have long endured without philosophical support, but few philosophies, as such, have long persisted without some identification with religion. Philosophy is to religion as conception is to action. But the ideal human estate is that in which philosophy, religion, and science are  welded into a meaningful unity by the conjoined action of wisdom, faith, and experience. 

P1080:3, 98:3.1 Having grown out of the earlier religious forms of worship of the family gods into the tribal reverence for Mars, the god of war, it was natural that the later religion of the  Latins was more of a political observance than were the intellectual systems of the Greeks and Brahmans or the more spiritual religions of several other peoples.
 
 P1080:4, 98:3.2 In the great monotheistic renaissance of Melchizedek's gospel during the sixth century before Christ, too few of the Salem missionaries penetrated Italy, and those who did were unable to overcome the influence of the rapidly spreading  Etruscan priesthood with its new galaxy of gods and temples, all of which became organized into the Roman state religion. This religion of the Latin tribes was not trivial and  venal like that of the Greeks, neither was it austere and tyrannical like that of the Hebrews; it consisted for the most part in the observance of mere forms, vows, and taboos.
 
 P1080:5, 98:3.3 Roman religion was greatly influenced by extensive cultural  importations from Greece. Eventually most of the Olympian gods were transplanted and incorporated into the Latin pantheon. The Greeks long worshiped the fire of the family hearth --  Hestia was the virgin goddess of the hearth; Vesta was the Roman goddess of the home. Zeus became Jupiter; Aphrodite, Venus; and so on down through the many Olympian deities.
 
 P1080:6, 98:3.4 The religious initiation of Roman youths was the occasion of their solemn consecration to the service of the state. Oaths and admissions to citizenship were in reality religious ceremonies. The Latin peoples maintained temples, altars, and shrines and, in a crisis, would consult the oracles. They preserved the bones of heroes and later on those of the Christian saints.
 
 P1080:7, 98:3.5 This formal and unemotional form of  pseudoreligious patriotism was doomed to collapse, even as the highly intellectual and artistic worship of the Greeks had gone down before the  fervid and deeply emotional worship of the mystery cults. The greatest of these devastating cults was the mystery religion of the Mother of God sect, which had its headquarters, in those days, on the exact site of the present church of St. Peter's in Rome. 


 P1080:8, 98:3.6 The emerging Roman state conquered politically but was in turn conquered by the cults, rituals, mysteries, and god concepts of Egypt, Greece, and the Levant. These imported cults continued to flourish throughout the Roman state up to the time of Augustus, who, purely for political and civic reasons, made a heroic and somewhat successful effort to destroy the mysteries and revive the older political religion.
 
 P1081:1, 98:3.7 One of the priests of the state religion told Augustus of the earlier attempts of the Salem teachers to spread the doctrine of one God, a final Deity presiding over all supernatural beings; and this idea took such a firm hold on the emperor that he built many temples,  stocked them well with beautiful images,  reorganized the state priesthood, re-established the state religion, appointed himself acting high priest of all, and as emperor did not hesitate to proclaim himself the supreme god.
 
 P1081:2, 98:3.8 This new religion of Augustus worship flourished and was observed throughout the empire during his lifetime except in Palestine, the home of the Jews. And this era of the human gods continued until the official Roman cult had a  roster of more than twoscore  self-elevated human deities, all claiming miraculous births and other superhuman attributes. 


 P1081:3, 98:3.9 The last stand of the dwindling band of Salem believers was made by an earnest group of preachers, the Cynics, who exhorted the Romans to abandon their wild and senseless religious rituals and return to a form of worship embodying Melchizedek's gospel as it had been modified and contaminated through contact with the philosophy of the Greeks. But the people at large rejected the Cynics; they preferred to plunge into the rituals of the mysteries, which not only offered hopes of personal salvation but also gratified the desire for diversion, excitement, and entertainment. 




 



 

[Mark of Australia]

Hey Maj ,

What is that you are quoting from ??

Moses is a fascinating figure in history for sure ,,trying to separate myth from fact is hard. 'Act of God ' by Graham Phillips is good for a theory about the Exodus.

[Majeston]

 


4. THE MYSTERY CULTS   
 


98:4.1 The majority of people in the   Graeco-Roman world, having lost their primitive family and state religions and   being unable or unwilling to grasp the meaning of Greek philosophy, turned their   attention to the spectacular and emotional mystery cults from Egypt and the   Levant. The common people craved promises of salvation -- religious consolation   for today and assurances of hope for immortality after death.
 


98:4.2 The three mystery cults which   became most popular were:
 

 

1. The Phrygian cult of Cybele and her son      Attis.
     2. The Egyptian cult of Osiris and his mother        Isis.
     3. The Iranian cult of the worship of Mithras        as the savior and redeemer of sinful mankind.





98:4.3 The Phrygian and Egyptian mysteries   taught that the divine son (respectively Attis and Osiris) had experienced death   and had been resurrected by divine power, and further that all who were properly   initiated into the mystery, and who reverently celebrated the anniversary of   the god's death and resurrection, would thereby become partakers of his divine   nature and his immortality.
 


98:4.4 The Phrygian ceremonies were imposing   but degrading; their bloody festivals indicate how degraded and primitive these   Levantine mysteries became. The most holy day was Black Friday, the "day   of blood," commemorating the self-inflicted death of Attis. After three   days of the celebration of the sacrifice and death of Attis the festival was   turned to joy in honor of his resurrection.
 


98:4.5 The rituals of the worship of   Isis and Osiris were more refined and impressive than were those of the Phrygian   cult. This Egyptian ritual was built around the legend of the Nile god of old,   a god who died and was resurrected, which concept was derived from the observation   of the annually recurring stoppage of vegetation growth followed by the springtime   restoration of all living plants. The frenzy of the observance of these mystery   cults and the orgies of their ceremonials, which were supposed to lead up to   the "enthusiasm" of the realization of divinity, were sometimes most   revolting.
 


5. THE CULT OF MITHRAS   
 


98:5.1 The Phrygian and Egyptian mysteries   eventually gave way before the greatest of all the mystery cults, the worship   of Mithras. The Mithraic cult made its appeal to a wide range of human nature   and gradually supplanted both of its predecessors. Mithraism spread over the   Roman Empire through the propagandizing of Roman legions recruited in the Levant,   where this religion was the vogue, for they carried this belief wherever they   went. And this new religious ritual was a great improvement over the earlier   mystery cults.
 


98:5.2 The cult of Mithras arose in Iran   and long persisted in its homeland despite the militant opposition of the followers   of Zoroaster. But by the time Mithraism reached Rome, it had become greatly   improved by the absorption of many of Zoroaster's teachings. It was chiefly   through the Mithraic cult that Zoroaster's religion exerted an influence upon   later appearing Christianity.
 


98:5.3 The Mithraic cult portrayed a   militant god taking origin in a great rock, engaging in valiant exploits, and   causing water to gush forth from a rock struck with his arrows. There was a   flood from which one man escaped in a specially built boat and a last supper   which Mithras celebrated with the sun-god before he ascended into the heavens.   This sun-god, or Sol Invictus, was a degeneration of the Ahura-Mazda deity concept   of Zoroastrianism. Mithras was conceived as the surviving champion of the sun-god   in his struggle with the god of darkness. And in recognition of his slaying   the mythical sacred bull, Mithras was made immortal, being exalted to the station   of intercessor for the human race among the gods on high.
 


98:5.4 The adherents of this cult worshiped   in caves and other secret places, chanting hymns, mumbling magic, eating the   flesh of the sacrificial animals, and drinking the blood. Three times a day   they worshiped, with special weekly ceremonials on the day of the sun-god and   with the most elaborate observance of all on the annual festival of Mithras,   December twenty-fifth. It was believed that the partaking of the sacrament ensured   eternal life, the immediate passing, after death, to the bosom of Mithras, there   to tarry in bliss until the judgment day. On the judgment day the Mithraic keys   of heaven would unlock the gates of Paradise for the reception of the faithful;   whereupon all the unbaptized of the living and the dead would be annihilated   upon the return of Mithras to earth. It was taught that, when a man died, he   went before Mithras for judgment, and that at the end of the world Mithras would   summon all the dead from their graves to face the last judgment. The wicked   would be destroyed by fire, and the righteous would reign with Mithras forever.
 


98:5.5 At first it was a religion only   for men, and there were seven different orders into which believers could be   successively initiated. Later on, the wives and daughters of believers were   admitted to the temples of the Great Mother, which adjoined the Mithraic temples.   The women's cult was a mixture of Mithraic ritual and the ceremonies of the   Phrygian cult of Cybele, the mother of Attis.
 


6. MITHRAISM AND CHRISTIANITY   
 


98:6.1 Prior to the coming of the mystery   cults and Christianity, personal religion hardly developed as an independent   institution in the civilized lands of North Africa and Europe; it was more of   a family, city-state, political, and imperial affair. The Hellenic Greeks never   evolved a centralized worship system; the ritual was local; they had no priesthood   and no "sacred book." Much as the Romans, their religious institutions   lacked a powerful driving agency for the preservation of higher moral and spiritual   values. While it is true that the institutionalization of religion has usually   detracted from its spiritual quality, it is also a fact that no religion has   thus far succeeded in surviving without the aid of institutional organization   of some degree, greater or lesser.
 


98:6.2 Occidental religion thus languished   until the days of the Skeptics, Cynics, Epicureans, and Stoics, but most important   of all, until the times of the great contest between Mithraism and Paul's new   religion of Christianity.
 


98:6.3 During the third century after   Christ, Mithraic and Christian churches were very similar both in appearance   and in the character of their ritual. A majority of such places of worship were   underground, and both contained altars whose backgrounds variously depicted   the sufferings of the savior who had brought salvation to a sin-cursed human   race.
 


98:6.4 Always had it been the practice   of Mithraic worshipers, on entering the temple, to dip their fingers in holy   water. And since in some districts there were those who at one time belonged   to both religions, they introduced this custom into the majority of the Christian   churches in the vicinity of Rome. Both religions employed baptism and partook   of the sacrament of bread and wine. The one great difference between Mithraism   and Christianity, aside from the characters of Mithras and Jesus, was that the   one encouraged militarism while the other was ultrapacific. Mithraism's tolerance   for other religions (except later Christianity) led to its final undoing. But   the deciding factor in the struggle between the two was the admission of women   into the full fellowship of the Christian faith.
 


98:6.5 In the end the nominal Christian   faith dominated the Occident. Greek philosophy supplied the concepts of ethical   value; Mithraism, the ritual of worship observance; and Christianity, as such,   the technique for the conservation of moral and social values.

http://urantiabook.org/newbook/papers/p098.htm

[Majeston]

Hey Maj ,

What is that you are quoting from ??

Hi Mark,

I'm using the Urantia book.  There is a lot of information already on this site at
http://atlantisonline.smfforfree2.com/index.php/board,93.0.html
       
       
Atlantis Online > Search for the Sacred > the Urantia Book

There are also many internet sites such as
http://urantiabook.org/index.html

[atalante]

Maeston,

I think I remember you from your previous incarnation.  Obviously you are still specializing in the Urantia material. 

I have read your recent post to me twice.  But I am not sure about its basic point, which you hinted as "1000 years" of a Dark Age. 

Are you suggesting that the Sea Peoples movement lasted 1000 years?