Philosophy of Science

[Mark of Australia]

I figure this is the right spot for this topic because Forbidden Archaeology is along the lines of questioning the scientific method that the establishment has used for many generations.

Plus ,there isn't really another spot that seems appropriate ...the philosophy section has a very Biblical theme to it and this isn't really History of Science either..

I want to talk about Scientific method itself ,especially how it pertains to Atlantis,these 'wacky' ideas and other ancient mysteries.

For the purpose of taking a step back and to start from scratch with good logic to try and build up a method by which we might build a theory on where the city of Atlantis is located...down to a specific area.

Like a sort of 101 on how to form an Atlantis theory

Things like - We've often heard how 'Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence' ,this is very relevant to the Atlantis question obviously , so since we don't actually have any direct evidence for Atlantis ,we have nothing to go by except the story.So the story of Atlantis ,for the time being is our only 'evidence' for it... This is clearly circular logic... And part of the reason why acadaemia doesn't bother with it....  But the fact remains , we have this amazing story written by a famous ancient philosopher in a very sober setting. There just may be some substance to it .Now if there really is substance to the story ,how do we break out of the circle of logic and mere arguments to get to the scientific observations that prove the existence of Atlantis ??

One way is the chance finding of the ruined city... good luck with that 

The other is the deliberate finding of the ruined city   .... but given the state of current ocean-going technology and the relative vagueness of the location of Atlantis it would seem to be prohibitively expensive to find Atlantis using Plato's story as the sole guide... Basically  ,you'd go broke before you got very far..

Maybe I'm jumping the gun , perhaps there is enough of a detailed description given by Plato sufficient to find Atlantis. Given his geographic details ,the unique nature of the city ,it's surroundings and the size of the plain... This may just be specific enough to match the description with a part of the Atlantic Ocean floor ... 

Many of you will be saying ...'Hang on' ,you're making assumptions like ' Atlantis is in the Atlantic'  ,personally I would say ,duh! ,of course it's in the Atlantic because that is what the story says and it matches the description of Plato. But for those who have formed other elaborate theories that place Atlantis all-over-the-shop. I would just say settle down . the point of this exercise is to start with the most plain reading of the story as possible,taking it at face-value and seeing if a specific location for Atlantis can still be come up with...  If this fails then by all means go for it ,a free for all ,Atlantis on Mars ,yay!.

But for this idea ,I'm assuming you are familiar with Plato's story in detail (As you all should be!!!) . So you would consider it reasonable that Atlantis is somewhere in the vicinity of the North-East Atlantic , part of it 'near' to Cadiz or facing Cadiz, it could be anwhere from the Canaries to Madeira to the Azores and anywhere in between on the ocean floor or even with remnants of it above the water.... That would be the most fitting area  ,Dang that's a big area ..  Somewhat less likely areas would be in the Atlantic Ocean beyond the Azores in any direction.

Does everyone agree??  No ?   too bad ,this is my post !!

So firstly we would try to identify the topography of Atlantis in the landscapes of the North-East Atlantis ....

Well here's one I prepared earlier ....   Can't find it !    If it's out there it's doing a bloody good job at hiding.If it was going to be that easy it would have been found by now anyway.

I think the detail of the ocean floor that our instruments have provided are simply not powerful enough yet. And Plato's description can be made to fit anything ...Just ask Mario or BlueHue.

Ok so do we discard this general idea.... No  ,you keep it in the back of your mind just in case new info comes to light... But for now it's on to plan B....

Time to massacre Plato's text ! change words around ,render whole parts of it worthless ,change definitions of words... It's a free for all ...Have fun .

[Mark of Australia]

I just realised that this topic should probably belong in the Scientific Atlantis section... So I'd better make it relevant for here 

One problem I think with scientists is that they feel the need to draw a conclusion on everything far too soon. E.g)  There is no evidence for Atlantis so therefore it does not exist.

If they could just keep there minds open to the possibilities they might be more likely to 'see' the evidence when it does actually emerge. I mean ,the old saying 'I'll believe it when I see it' very much sums up science ,but there is that human nature that causes second-rate scientists to 'see it only when they believe it'.

Let me make my point - In my first post I asserted that there is no physical evidence of Atlantis and so that is why it is considered a myth etc.   But is that really so ?? I think there actually is some physical evidence of Atlantis (not the most spectacular kind but still evidence) . The problem is that because at some point in the past they considered Atlantis but did not see any evidence for it ,they drew a conclusion that it's a myth ,which then gets taught as doctrine. So later on when evidence is found ,that evidence gets explained away so that it fits into the comfortable little world they've built for themselves. 

Ok so what is this evidence I speak of ?  It's the evidence that Gwen and I had tried to track down awhile ago but no luck... Now I finally found it ...It was in a Frank Joseph book ,Dang.

It seems to be genuine . In 'Destruction of Atlantis' pg.62 , he writes ," A 1967 issue of Science magazine reported the discovery of mastodon and mammoth teeth on the Atlantic Continental Shelf two to three hundred miles off the coast of Portugal.Numerous specimens were recovered from atleast 40 different underwater sites along the Azores-Gibraltar Ridge,some from depths of 360 feet. The teeth were found in submerged shorelines,peat deposits,sand banks caused by surface waves crashing against a beach,and depressions that formerly contained fresh-water lagoons.These features prove that the area was formerly dry land.
   The Science writer concluded, 'Evidently,elephants and other large mammals ranged this region during the glacial stage of low sea level of the last 25,000 years.' "
 
 It may not be the smoking gun but I think that it is amongst the best evidence we have for Atlantis. Obviously ,the establishment has not seen it as evidence for Atlantis ... they invoked the old chestnut,'the land bridge' to explain away this evidence(land bridges in science have always been wrong )... It's almost as if they sub-consciously knew that they could not concede that there was an island in the Atlantic off Portugal with elephants on it during the Ice Age. Of course they were just doing the best they could with the 'education' they'd been given.

So this what I was on about at the start of this post...They drew a hasty conclusion that Atlantis is fiction. So now this good evidence for Atlantis is overlooked because of their doctrine which does not allow for such an interpretation.

Combine the mammoth teeth found along the Azores-Gibraltar Ridge with the evidence that the Horseshoe Seamounts in the region were around 600m higher at some point in the past http://atlantisonline.smfforfree2.com/index.php/topic,5427.0.html  ,and you have a potential Atlantis in the region matching Plato's description as I was saying in the first post...

If they had been open-minded there may have been more expeditions more often to the area since 1967 and we may have been closer to finding Atlantis...

Their poor scientific method is a hindrance to discovery. If this is the case for Atlantis studies,I hate to think what the state of other sciences is like.

Obviously these words will only carry weight concerning Atlantis if it is eventually found... but generally what I'm describing is classic history of science stuff. What they call paradigm shifts. It happens every now and then ,and yet they don't change their methods.... *sigh*

[Kara Sundstrom]

It would be nice to get the actual article from the 1967 Science Magazine, you'll notice that Frank Joseph does a lot of paraphrasing.  It sounds like a lot of mammoth/mastodon bones were there, so maybe the area was above water at one time.  On the other hand, those same types of bones have been said to wash up along the coast of Maine at times, too.  Does that mean there was an island out there sometime with mammoths on it, too?

You're right, whatever needs to be done in that area of the ocean next will be expensive! 

[Mark of Australia]

Hi Kara ,

Yes ,that's exactly what I was thinking ,I definately want to get that issue of 'Science'.

Who knows if there really was an island with mammoths on it? But it is really suggestive especially since even those scientists who made the discovery concluded that the mammoths inhabited the location when it was dry land . I'm sure that if they were able to explain away the mammoth teeth as having been washed up there from the mainland ,they would have.

But as you say ,we need to check out the article for ourselves.

[Kara Sundstrom]

Hi Mark,

Well, here is the website for Science Magazine, but I notice they only archive material from 1996 on, online.  Maybe they have some way to order old issues:

http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/collection
http://www.sciencemag.org/about/

I certainly would get another source for that besides Frank Joseph, though, I'm sure you heard about him! 

[Bianca]

OK, guys, let me jump in.

Sorry, Mark, that I haven't read this before.  I have been busy helping to copy old, but important
threads.  Mine is ATLANTIS IN THE ATLANTIC (ORIGINAL).  The information in it is the best!

The mastodons were mentioned, maybe within the last 10 pages that I have copied.  I am now,
I believe, around Page 33 - and I'm only half way through.......I'd say start scannning back from
that page.

Anyway, I suggest one of you track the 'mastodon bones' story down.  Desiree and Nekozuki are
the ones that brought it up.  Both of them are excellent at CITING sources.

Also, maybe you'll read the thread in its entirety.  The information is just fantastic.

HERE IT IS:

http://atlantisonline.smfforfree2.com/index.php/topic,5655.0.html


p.s. I read of the mastodon find other places too, I'll have to concentrate and try to remember where.

[Mark of Australia]

Hi Kara,

Thanks for the links , I hadn't got around to checking that out yet. 

Yeah I have heard about Frank Joseph. That's why I'd like to get to the original source of the claims.

I'd say the works that are my highest priority to get are,
1. That 1967 'Science' article ,
2.'Athanasius Kircher -German Genius'
3. the 'Milos Conference proceedings', I still can't get the proceedings  .
4. a book about Atlantis by a Jeremy Horwick ,he claims the U.S. military found something.


Hi Bianca ,

I have been reading through those original AR threads.There really is some good work in them. I notice the arguments back then were so much more 'on topic' and enthusiastic. It seems that some of the posters have become a little jaded since then or have given up altogether.  So it's good to have the best of those days over here at AO.
   For example , Desiree's response to Jaime on Reply 469 of the original Atlantic Ocean thread was brilliant, and vicious. Great stuff. http://atlantisonline.smfforfree2.com/index.php/topic,5655.465.html

[Mark of Australia]

I've found the abstract for the article at the Science website. I'm very disappointed ... There is no suggestion that the finds were off Portugal but instead came from the American Continental Shelf!..

If Frank Joseph really just imagined his claims.. If this has been a wild goose chase.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 Science 16 June 1967:
Vol. 156. no. 3781, pp. 1477 - 1481
DOI: 10.1126/science.156.3781.1477
 Prev | Table of Contents | Next 

Articles

Elephant Teeth from the Atlantic Continental Shelf
Frank C. Whitmore Jr. 1, K. O. Emery 2, H. B. S. Cooke 3, and Donald J. P. Swift 4
1 U. S. Geological Survey, Washington, D.C.
2 Woods Hole Oceanographic Institution, Woods Hole, Massachusetts
3 Department of Geology, Dalhousie University, Halifax, Nova Scotia
4 Puerto Rico Nuclear Center, Mayaguez



Teeth of mastodons and mammoths have been recovered by fishermen from at least 40 sites on the continental shelf as deep as 120 meters. Also present are submerged shorelines, peat deposits, lagoonal shells, anz relict sands. Evidently elephants and other large mammals ranged this region during the glacial stage of low sea level of the last 25,000 years.

http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/abstract/156/3781/1477

It's $10 to purchase the one article. I assume a credit card is needed. it doesn't say.


 

[Daedalus]

a book about Atlantis by a Jeremy Horwick ,he claims the U.S. military found something.

I am not certain that this book exists. Jeremy Horwick was also referenced in an article from the Weekly World News in an article there on Atlantis.  The Weekly World News was a supermarket tabloid that folded last summer, but, during it's day, used to champion the belief in all sorts of strange alien things as well as "Bat Boy. "

[Akelius]

I printed this three years ago when I was a member of Atlantis Rising:

U.S. NAVY FOUND ATLANTIS IN 1973!
Underwater city is 19 miles off coast of Spain!
By VINCENZO SARDI
WASHINGTON -- The U.S. Navy has known the exact location of Atlantis since 1973 and has even sent nuclear subs to explore the sunken ruins, a new book charges!

"For more than a quarter of a century, the United States government has kept this extraordinary discovery a secret from the American people," claims researcher Jeremy Horwick, authorof the upcoming book, Mission: Atlantis: What the Navy Really Knows about the Lost Continent.


Author: Jeremy Howick
According to Horwick, who cites once-classified documents obtained through the Freedom of Information Act and interviews with former seamen, a Navy sub discovered the ruins of the fabled civilization while doing maneuvers off the coast of Spain on July 25, 1973.

"The ruins are about 5,500 feet deep and are quite vast, extending for at least 19 square miles," the D.C.-based author says.

While the captain of the vessel immediately recognized the significance of the find, he received orders to keep mum from the highest levels of the government.

Horwick has evidence that this order came from then-President Nixon, who decided that keeping the discovery secret was in the best national security interests of America.

"Nixon's advisers, including Henry Kissinger, were quite aware of the legends surrounding Atlantis, that it had achieved a highly sophisticated level of technology before the catastrophe that sent it to the bottom of the ocean," says Horwick. "They knew that during World War II, Hitler had sent his U-boats on a desperate hunt for Atlantis, believing that he might retrieve that technology and use it to build a secret weapon that would help Germany achieve victory.

"President Nixon felt that there might be technology Amer-ica could use to win the Cold War and he decided to try to salvage it.

"He didn't want to give the Russians a head's up with any kind of public announcement, out of fear they would plunder it first."

Since that time, the Navy has launched four expeditions to Atlantis, the latest in 1997 -- and has retrieved not only cultural artifacts but scientific machinery, the author claims.

"The Atlantean technology is based on principles very far afield from anything Western science has developed, apparently involving mind-over-matter," Horwick says.

"Some of the latest military hardware we're seeing now, including the Stealth Bomber and the Star Wars missile-defense system now being advanced by President Bush, incorporate technology salvaged from Atlantis."

Published on: 04/11/2001
http://www.weeklyworldnews.com/conspiracies/10973

[Akelius]

I don't know if the article is or isn't true, but, like Daedulus mentions, it is from a suspect source. 

This is a perfect example of why one should print the whole article and not just give the link.  The link doesn't link to anything anymore (the Weekly World News having apparently empited out it's website as well as it closed it's doors) and here is one of the only places it still exists on the internet. 

[Bianca]

Hi, Akelius!


We found that article a while back, too.  I tracked down the author, Vincenzo Sardi, and
found he was a writer for one of the minor tabloids, THE SUN, if I remember correctly.

We keep track of ARCHAEOLOGICAL COVER UPS, as we find them, here:


http://atlantisonline.smfforfree2.com/index.php/topic,1772.0.html

[Mark of Australia]

Hi Daedalus ,

Yeah ,I had suspected that the Jeremy Horwick stuff was just 'fairies in boots' .Thanks for the heads up.

Hi Akelius,

Yeah that's the sort of thing I had read. It sounds plausible up until it starts mentioning that the U.S are using salvaged Atlantean technology in their stealth bombers etc!!!.  Still ,(sigh) if the book actually exists ,I would like to see if there is anything in there of substance.

Hi Bianca ,

Thanks for the link, do you think the 'book' even exists?

[Bianca]

Aha, Mark, here's something for you:


FROM

DHILL'S 'ATLANTIS IN THE ATLANTIC' (ORIGINAL)












dhill757

Member
Member # 1890

Member Rated:
   posted 10-04-2004 09:45 PM                       
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Great point about ancient cremation, Rockessence!



Here is an article I promised Essan a long time ago. It has to do with the bones of ancient mastadons and mammoths washing up along the coasts of the Atlantic. These bones come from the ocean floor along the coastline of the Carolinas. Follow the link and the article has some pictures. These same bones have also been seen in the Azores, but I'm still looking for those specific pictures.

This article comes from the Regional Review in1939, incidentally:


quote:
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Volume III - No. 3

September, 1939
In the ordinary course of events, the ocean is the great receiver ---- the world's greatest collector. It collects the sediments that are eroded from the land by streams, winds, waves and glaciers. As the earth's most populous burial ground, it receives the shells and bodies of countless organisms that swim in it or drift upon its surface. It also, upon occasion, receives the bodies of animals that lived upon the land. During times of Widespread upheaval many or these things are restored to the land, but only rarely does the ocean itself become an active agent in a process of giving back to the land the bones of animals that once roamed upon it. It is our purpose here to describe such a case. At Edisto Beach State Park in South Carolina the bones and teeth of long-extinct animals --- animals that lived upon the land in the Ice Age --- are being excavated from the ocean floor and washed ashore by storm waves of the modern Atlantic.

There is, of course, no actual migration as in the fanciful sketch which appears on this page, but the event nevertheless has some of the elements of an anachronism. Ancient animals are being washed ashore by the sea which, contrary to its custom, is acting as the giver rather than the receiver. If this situation is not anachronistic it certainly is paradoxical --- a reversal of a normal process of nature. The cavalcade of animals that comes piecemeal to the shores of Edisto includes beasts that seem strangely un-American. It includes elephants --- Woolly Mammoths and Mastodons --- Ground Sloths, Giant Beavers, Tapirs, Giant Armadillos, Royal Bison. It includes horses that lived and died here long before the Spaniards brought the first of our present stock in the early 16th century. But these venerable inhabitants of South Carolina are not un-American. It is we who are the newcomers! Associated with the forms mentioned above are others that are more familiar, such as the teeth of bears, antlers of elk and deer, and plates of large land turtles together with the bones of still other animals that lived in the sea. In this last group are the globular ear bones of whales, curved ribs of sea cows that were the ancestors of the rare individuals still living along the coast of southern Florida, plates of alligator and marine turtles, along with teeth of sharks and spines of rays that lived in periods before the Ice Age. During the summer of 1937 Student Technician Hugh M. Rutledge, with the help of volunteers from the CCC camp, collected more than 1,500 vertebrate fossils of which he identified more than 200. The following summer Student Technician Rudolph A. Jaworski added nearly a thousand specimens to the collection. We may well pause and wonder. How did such a motley crew of early Americans find their way into a common graveyard?

Before we can arrive at a satisfactory answer to this question we shall have to learn a little more about the existing situation at Edisto Beach. In picturing the ocean at Edisto as a giver we were being overly generous with that relentless foe of the land. Edisto lies in a broad reentrant in the coast line --- an arc, concave landward, that extends 180 miles from Charleston to the Florida boundary. In this arc today at Edisto, the waves are eating into the land at the measured rate of 15 feet a year, and there is clear evidence to indicate that the process has been going on for a long time.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


http://www.cr.nps.gov/history/online_books/regional_review/vol3-3b.htm 

[Bianca]

dhill757

Member
Member # 1890

Member Rated:
   posted 10-04-2004 09:48 PM                       
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The article continued:

quote:
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On the present beach at Edisto a bed of green mud outcrops close to low tide level. During his early investigations in the area Mr. Rutledge discovered bones in this layer of mud. Believing the bones to be fossil he carefully excavated them, pleased with the prospect of obtaining a complete skeleton. To his dismay the skeleton proved to be that of a very modern cow! Since the cow could not have become buried in the mud at the present site of outcrop, this strange occurrence indicates that what is now the beach was once marsh land and that the sea has moved inland a considerable distance within historic times. The ocean exacts a stiff price for our collection of old bones!
A glance at a Hydrographic Chart gives us additional information of interest. The sea off Edisto is very shallow, the "continental shelf" being about 70 miles wide. All the sea bottom within five miles of shore is less than 40 feet deep. If sea level were to be lowered 150 feet the shore would be extended 55 miles! This point is significant and will be referred to later. From actual observations we know little about the materials that form the sea floor but we do know that the flat strip of country forming the present coast is underlain by marine deposits of the Ice Age. From this strip --- known as the Pamlico Terrace --- marine shells have been collected to levels 12 feet above low tide. This assemblage includes a large number of species that live today only in warmer latitudes.1 We shall show later that this fact is not extraordinary, for the shells lived during an inter-glacial epoch when the sea stood higher and the climate was warmer.

We do not know the exact thickness of the Ice Age deposits at Edisto Beach but the fossiliferous portion is probably only a few feet thick and probably lies close to sea level. At Coffin Point 10 miles to the southwest, where the Service's core drill put down an exploratory well, we entered sediments at a depth of 72 feet that appeared to be definitely older than the Ice Age. This gives us at least a maximum figure for this general area and one that compares favorably with other drilling records. The deposits of the Ice Age consist of beds of dark mud with some sand and shell. The vertebrate fossils are impregnated with mineral matter and their outer surfaces are stained nearly black by organic material. Some of the larger ones come ashore encrusted with sand and recent marine shells, indicating that they have lain exposed on the sea bottom for some time before being cast upon the beach.

Before continuing our description of the process of excavation let us consider the conditions that existed in the world during the Ice Age. In that period tremendous quantities of water were taken out of the oceans and locked up on the land in the form of glacial ice. About one-sixth of all the lands now in existence were blanketed with ice. About one-half of North America was covered. The ice extended from Alaska to Greenland and southward to the Ohio and Missouri Rivers. South Carolina was not glaciated but it felt the effects in a somewhat cooler climate and in the fact that the sea was lowered at least 150 feet, possibly much more. This latter, as previously mentioned, greatly extended the land area to the southeast. From what is now the coast of South Carolina a broad flat extended seaward for more than 50 miles. This area lay close to sea level and parts of it doubtless were swampy traps for unwary animals, as are parts of the Coastal Plain today.

We should mention at this point there was not just one epoch of glaciation --- there were four. These cold epochs were separated by warmer inter-glacial epochs. During these times the ice melted, the glaciers retreated northward and sea level came back to normal. In South Carolina during each warm epoch the sea rose to cover the shelf that had been exposed during the preceding glacial stage. Sea animals flourished and shell beds were formed. As the glaciers re-advanced the sea retreated and the land animals that lived along the margin of the glaciers retreated southward ahead of the invading ice. They inhabited parts of the newly exposed land and left their bones to mingle with those of sea animals. These changes took place slowly, of course, and it is estimated that the entire Ice Age (not counting the present epoch, which may be just another inter-glacial stage) occupied a span of 2,000,000 years.

The fact that the Edisto deposits that now are being excavated contain the remains of bison and bears --- animals that apparently did not migrate into America until the closing stages of the Ice Age --- suggests that our deposit is fairly young. It is difficult to determine the exact age because the fauna that is being washed up is considerably mixed. The waves may have access to two or more thin deposits of different ages. Some of the sharks' teeth belong to species that antedate the Ice Age but these teeth are resistant objects that may have been reworked --- mixed up with Ice Age deposits during the Ice Age. Likewise, it is known that some of the typical Ice Age mammals that are now extinct -- American horses, the Giant Sloth, Mastodon, and Woolly Mammoth --- persisted in North America until a few thousand years ago. These particular animals were still in existence following the retreat of the last glacier and some, at least, after the arrival of the earliest human beings on this continent. You may ask, is it, then, not possible that the Edisto waves may uncover human artifacts or actual skeletal remains? It is possible but very unlikely.

We shall not attempt in this brief account to describe the appearance or the habits of all of South Carolina's numerous extinct animals but Mr. Kiener has sketched some of the commoner ones, basing his sketches on well known restorations. Only bones and teeth and plates are found at Edisto and Irving Gladstein has kindly photographed a number of these. Of particular interest are the tiny milk teeth of the elephants2 --- one from the browzing mastodon, the other from the mammoth, a grazing animal. Bones of the former have been found associated with human artifacts in Florida; frozen bodies of the latter have been recovered in arctic regions. The Giant Sloth that lived in the Edisto region bore little resemblance to his modern tree-dwelling relative. The Ice Age sloth was a ground-dweller that stood erect to pull down branches with its claws. It probably lumbered awkwardly on all-fours, walking on the outer edges of its feet. Some of the horses were as large as those living today.

Many believe that the fossils that are being washed up at Edisto are brought to the coast by streams, but to the writer it seems unlikely that such is the case. Nearby streams, such as South Edisto River, are sluggish and carry only fine sediment. It seems doubtful that they could bring down large heavy bones even if aided by tidal currents. Mr. Rutledge, who probably knows the area better than anyone, reported that the largest bone that he found weighed close to 40 pounds. The writer weighed the largest one now in the Edisto Museum --- a fragment of elephant bone --- and found that it weighed 20-1/4 pounds. Mr. Jaworski, who collected 967 specimens, reported that they were most abundant at high tide mark on the Edisto front beach and in the area immediately to the north east. Fossils were comparatively rare on Bay Point and on the beach fronting South Edisto River. Mr. Jaworski also pointed out that bone fragments less than 2/3 inches long were rare. In the writer's opinion, the waves at Edisto are eating into an unusually rich concentration of vertebrate remains buried just below sea level. In this connection it is interesting to note that the nearby Hunting Island beach, which, like Edisto, is receding rapidly landward, has not yielded a single fossil although it has been searched carefully.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
(1) H. G. Richards, "Fauna of the Pleistocene Pamlico Formation of the Southern Atlantic Coastal Plain." Geological Society of America Bulletin, vol. 47, pp. 1638, 1640, 1936. 


http://atlantisonline.smfforfree2.com/index.php/topic,5655.105.html