the Nature of God

[Aphrodite]

Absonite

Member
Member # 1766

  posted 12-04-2004 08:13 AM                       
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Calvin,
First you intuit that I am hostile to Christianity and now you suggest that I am hostile to the bible. What's with that? I don't think I am hostile to either. I prefer a more enlightened approach to reality than either one offers. I cannot find that anyplace on earth except in the Urantia papers and certainly not from anywhere I can rely on as truth.
Christianity is not the teachings of Jesus. It is Pauls philosophy of life and it is the teaching "about" Jesus. Jesus never taught that you are saved by the blood, or that he needed to die as the last sacrifice of God. The bible is a story for childish lazy minds who cannot understand anything about either Jesus; God or reality. But, it is ok because that was the best humanity had to offer at the time and for whatever reason it has taken man to the 20th century. Judiasm was the distorted remnants of the teaching of Melchizedek who was the 3rd revelation to earth. Christianity is the teaching "about" Jesus who was the 4th revelation to humanity. The Urantia papers are the 5th revelation to humanity. So they therefore correct and expand the distorted teachings of Judiasm and Christianity and from a perspective of knowing truth from the top down. So Calvin, that is all we have until the 6th, which will probably not come for 500 to 1000 years from now. Now, your choice is to continue to play with the 3rd or 4th or maybe graduate to the 5th.
As far as what my ideas about God are and why the God of Urantia is different from the God of Christianity, that will take up more time and effort than this medium would allow. I guess you wish me to condense it is 50 words or less. Why don't you read about it for yourself and then yuo tell us why God is different in Urantia than Christianity or even Judiasm. You can just start with the 1st hundred pages or so. I have posted a little bit on this thread already to Dawn and Veronica. That alone should give you an idea that you are dealing with something different.
Spiritwalker has started a thread about the Urantia papers under the topic "Common Ground"
http://forums.atlantisrising.com/ubb/Forum20/HTML/000051.html
Why not go there to start with or read a little bit and then ask me some questions that are not so broad as to require a doctorial thesis to respond.
You can just simply look through the table of contents there and choose what interests you. There is also a link for a search of the Urantia papers online and you can answer all these questions about what does Urantia say about this or that for yourself. In this age of the Internet all the answers are at your fingertips so to speak. It's good that you even have the curiosity to ask the questions. That is at least the first step in the search for truth.


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[This message has been edited by Absonite (edited 12-04-2004).]

 

[Aphrodite]

Absonite

Member
Member # 1766

  posted 12-04-2004 03:33 PM                       
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Spiritwalker,
your above list and the so-called ANSWERS are not to be either trusted or relied upon. Let me take only the last one to begin with. The so called sermon on the mount. The ANSWER gave was......"Answer: Jesus Christ, in his Sermon on the Mount at Matthew 5, was correcting the Jews in the practice of making light, loose, and indiscriminate taking of oaths. It had become common among them to swear by heaven, by the earth, by Jerusalem, and even by their own heads. But since heaven was "God's throne," earth is his "footstool," Jerusalem is his kingly city, .... blah blah bblah....


The so-called "Sermon on the Mount" is not the gospel of Jesus. It does contain much helpful instruction, but it was Jesus' ordination charge to the twelve apostles. It was the Master's personal commission to those who were to go on preaching the gospel and aspiring to represent him in the world of men even as he was so eloquently and perfectly representative of his Father.

What follows here is the exact words and situation of the sermon........


The Urantia Book

Ê

ÊPAPER 140

ÊTHE ORDINATION OF THE TWELVE

Ê

Ê 140:0.1 JUST before noon on Sunday, January 12, A.D. 27, Jesus called the apostles together for their ordination as public preachers of the gospel of the kingdom. The twelve were expecting to be called almost any day; so this morning they did not go out far from the shore to fish. Several of them were lingering near the shore repairing their nets and tinkering with their fishing paraphernalia.

Ê 140:0.2 As Jesus started down the seashore calling the apostles, he first hailed Andrew and Peter, who were fishing near the shore; next he signaled to James and John, who were in a boat near by, visiting with their father, Zebedee, and mending their nets. Two by two he gathered up the other apostles, and when he had assembled all twelve, he journeyed with them to the highlands north of Capernaum, where he proceeded to instruct them in preparation for their formal ordination.

Ê 140:0.3 For once all twelve of the apostles were silent; even Peter was in a reflective mood. At last the long-waited-for hour had come! They were going apart with the Master to participate in some sort of solemn ceremony of personal consecration and collective dedication to the sacred work of representing their Master in the proclamation of the coming of his Father's kingdom.

Ê

ÊÊ
1. PRELIMINARY INSTRUCTION

Ê 140:1.1 Before the formal ordination service Jesus spoke to the twelve as they were seated about him: "My brethren, this hour of the kingdom has come. I have brought you apart here with me to present you to the Father as ambassadors of the kingdom. Some of you heard me speak of this kingdom in the synagogue when you first were called. Each of you has learned more about the Father's kingdom since you have been with me working in the cities around about the Sea of Galilee. But just now I have something more to tell you concerning this kingdom.

Ê 140:1.2 "The new kingdom which my Father is about to set up in the hearts of his earth children is to be an everlasting dominion. There shall be no end of this rule of my Father in the hearts of those who desire to do his divine will. I declare to you that my Father is not the God of Jew or gentile. Many shall come from the east and from the west to sit down with us in the Father's kingdom, while many of the children of Abraham will refuse to enter this new brotherhood of the rule of the Father's spirit in the hearts of the children of men.

Ê 140:1.3 "The power of this kingdom shall consist, not in the strength of armies nor in the might of riches, but rather in the glory of the divine spirit that shall come to teach the minds and rule the hearts of the reborn citizens of this heavenly kingdom, the sons of God. This is the brotherhood of love wherein righteousness reigns, and whose battle cry shall be: Peace on earth and good will to all men. This kingdom, which you are so soon to go forth proclaiming, is the desire of the good men of all ages, the hope of all the earth, and the fulfillment of the wise promises of all the prophets.

Ê 140:1.4 "But for you, my children, and for all others who would follow you into this kingdom, there is set a severe test. Faith alone will pass you through its portals, but you must bring forth the fruits of my Father's spirit if you would continue to ascend in the progressive life of the divine fellowship. Verily, verily, I say to you, not every one who says, `Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven; but rather he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

Ê 140:1.5 "Your message to the world shall be: Seek first the kingdom of God and his righteousness, and in finding these, all other things essential to eternal survival shall be secured therewith. And now would I make it plain to you that this kingdom of my Father will not come with an outward show of power or with unseemly demonstration. You are not to go hence in the proclamation of the kingdom, saying, `it is here' or `it is there,' for this kingdom of which you preach is God within you.

Ê 140:1.6 "Whosoever would become great in my Father's kingdom shall become a minister to all; and whosoever would be first among you, let him become the server of his brethren. But when you are once truly received as citizens in the heavenly kingdom, you are no longer servants but sons, sons of the living God. And so shall this kingdom progress in the world until it shall break down every barrier and bring all men to know my Father and believe in the saving truth which I have come to declare. Even now is the kingdom at hand, and some of you will not die until you have seen the reign of God come in great power.

Ê 140:1.7 "And this which your eyes now behold, this small beginning of twelve commonplace men, shall multiply and grow until eventually the whole earth shall be filled with the praise of my Father. And it will not be so much by the words you speak as by the lives you live that men will know you have been with me and have learned of the realities of the kingdom. And while I would lay no grievous burdens upon your minds, I am about to put upon your souls the solemn responsibility of representing me in the world when I shall presently leave you as I now represent my Father in this life which I am living in the flesh." And when he had finished speaking, he stood up.

Ê

ÊÊ
2. THE ORDINATION

Ê 140:2.1 Jesus now instructed the twelve mortals who had just listened to his declaration concerning the kingdom to kneel in a circle about him. Then the Master placed his hands upon the head of each apostle, beginning with Judas Iscariot and ending with Andrew. When he had blessed them, he extended his hands and prayed:

Ê 140:2.2 "My Father, I now bring to you these men, my messengers. From among our children on earth I have chosen these twelve to go forth to represent me as I came forth to represent you. Love them and be with them as you have loved and been with me. And now, my Father, give these men wisdom as I place all the affairs of the coming kingdom in their hands. And I would, if it is your will, tarry on earth a time to help them in their labors for the kingdom. And again, my Father, I thank you for these men, and I commit them to your keeping while I go on to finish the work you have given me to do."

Ê 140:2.3 When Jesus had finished praying, the apostles remained each man bowed in his place. And it was many minutes before even Peter dared lift up his eyes to look upon the Master. One by one they embraced Jesus, but no man said aught. A great silence pervaded the place while a host of celestial beings looked down upon this solemn and sacred scene -- the Creator of a universe placing the affairs of the divine brotherhood of man under the direction of human minds.

Ê

ÊÊ
3. THE ORDINATION SERMON

Ê 140:3.1 Then Jesus spoke, saying: "Now that you are ambassadors of my Father's kingdom, you have thereby become a class of men separate and distinct from all other men on earth. You are not now as men among men but as the enlightened citizens of another and heavenly country among the ignorant creatures of this dark world. It is not enough that you live as you were before this hour, but henceforth must you live as those who have tasted the glories of a better life and have been sent back to earth as ambassadors of the Sovereign of that new and better world. Of the teacher more is expected than of the pupil; of the master more is exacted than of the servant. Of the citizens of the heavenly kingdom more is required than of the citizens of the earthly rule. Some of the things which I am about to say to you may seem hard, but you have elected to represent me in the world even as I now represent the Father; and as my agents on earth you will be obligated to abide by those teachings and practices which are reflective of my ideals of mortal living on the worlds of space, and which I exemplify in my earth life of revealing the Father who is in heaven.

Ê 140:3.2 "I send you forth to proclaim liberty to the spiritual captives, joy to those in the bondage of fear, and to heal the sick in accordance with the will of my Father in heaven. When you find my children in distress, speak encouragingly to them, saying:

Ê 140:3.3 "Happy are the poor in spirit, the humble, for theirs are the treasures of the kingdom of heaven.

Ê 140:3.4 "Happy are they who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they shall be filled.

Ê 140:3.5 "Happy are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth.

Ê 140:3.6 "Happy are the pure in heart, for they shall see God.

Ê 140:3.7 "And even so speak to my children these further words of spiritual comfort and promise:

Ê 140:3.8 "Happy are they who mourn, for they shall be comforted. Happy are they who weep, for they shall receive the spirit of rejoicing.

Ê 140:3.9 "Happy are the merciful, for they shall obtain mercy.

Ê 140:3.10 "Happy are the peacemakers, for they shall be called the sons of God.

Ê 140:3.11 "Happy are they who are persecuted for righteousness' sake, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. Happy are you when men shall revile you and persecute you and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely. Rejoice and be exceedingly glad, for great is your reward in heaven.

Ê 140:3.12 "My brethren, as I send you forth, you are the salt of the earth, salt with a saving savor. But if this salt has lost its savor, wherewith shall it be salted? It is henceforth good for nothing but to be cast out and trodden under foot of men.

Ê 140:3.13 "You are the light of the world. A city set upon a hill cannot be hid. Neither do men light a candle and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it gives light to all who are in the house. Let your light so shine before men that they may see your good works and be led to glorify your Father who is in heaven.

Ê 140:3.14 "I am sending you out into the world to represent me and to act as ambassadors of my Father's kingdom, and as you go forth to proclaim the glad tidings, put your trust in the Father whose messengers you are. Do not forcibly resist injustice; put not your trust in the arm of the flesh. If your neighbor smites you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. Be willing to suffer injustice rather than to go to law among yourselves. In kindness and with mercy minister to all who are in distress and in need.

Ê 140:3.15 "I say to you: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, and pray for those who despitefully use you. And whatsoever you believe that I would do to men, do you also to them.

Ê 140:3.16 "Your Father in heaven makes the sun to shine on the evil as well as upon the good; likewise he sends rain on the just and the unjust. You are the sons of God; even more, you are now the ambassadors of my Father's kingdom. Be merciful, even as God is merciful, and in the eternal future of the kingdom you shall be perfect, even as your heavenly Father is perfect.

Ê 140:3.17 "You are commissioned to save men, not to judge them. At the end of your earth life you will all expect mercy; therefore do I require of you during your mortal life that you show mercy to all of your brethren in the flesh. Make not the mistake of trying to pluck a mote out of your brother's eye when there is a beam in your own eye. Having first cast the beam out of your own eye, you can the better see to cast the mote out of your brother's eye.

Ê 140:3.18 "Discern the truth clearly; live the righteous life fearlessly; and so shall you be my apostles and my Father's ambassadors. You have heard it said: `If the blind lead the blind, they both shall fall into the pit.' If you would guide others into the kingdom, you must yourselves walk in the clear light of living truth. In all the business of the kingdom I exhort you to show just judgment and keen wisdom. Present not that which is holy to dogs, neither cast your pearls before swine, lest they trample your gems under foot and turn to rend you.

Ê 140:3.19 "I warn you against false prophets who will come to you in sheep's clothing, while on the inside they are as ravening wolves. By their fruits you shall know them. Do men gather grapes from thorns or figs from thistles? Even so, every good tree brings forth good fruit, but the corrupt tree bears evil fruit. A good tree cannot yield evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree produce good fruit. Every tree that does not bring forth good fruit is presently hewn down and cast into the fire. In gaining an entrance into the kingdom of heaven, it is the motive that counts. My Father looks into the hearts of men and judges by their inner longings and their sincere intentions.

Ê 140:3.20 "In the great day of the kingdom judgment, many will say to me, `Did we not prophesy in your name and by your name do many wonderful works?' But I will be compelled to say to them, `I never knew you; depart from me you who are false teachers.' But every one who hears this charge and sincerely executes his commission to represent me before men even as I have represented my Father to you, shall find an abundant entrance into my service and into the kingdom of the heavenly Father."

Ê

Ê 140:3.21 Never before had the apostles heard Jesus speak in this way, for he had talked to them as one having supreme authority. They came down from the mountain about sundown, but no man asked Jesus a question.

Ê




 

[Aphrodite]

Absonite

Member
Member # 1766

  posted 12-04-2004 03:35 PM                       
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4. YOU ARE THE SALT OF THE EARTH
Ê 140:4.1 The so-called "Sermon on the Mount" is not the gospel of Jesus. It does contain much helpful instruction, but it was Jesus' ordination charge to the twelve apostles. It was the Master's personal commission to those who were to go on preaching the gospel and aspiring to represent him in the world of men even as he was so eloquently and perfectly representative of his Father.

Ê

Ê 140:4.2 "You are the salt of the earth, salt with a saving savor. But if this salt has lost its savor, wherewith shall it be salted? It is henceforth good for nothing but to be cast out and trodden under foot of men."

Ê 140:4.3 In Jesus' time salt was precious. It was even used for money. The modern word "salary" is derived from salt. Salt not only flavors food, but it is also a preservative. It makes other things more tasty, and thus it serves by being spent.

Ê

Ê 140:4.4 "You are the light of the world. A city set on a hill cannot be hid. Neither do men light a candle and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it gives light to all who are in the house. Let your light so shine before men that they may see your good works and be led to glorify your Father who is in heaven."

Ê 140:4.5 While light dispels darkness, it can also be so "blinding" as to confuse and frustrate. We are admonished to let our light so shine that our fellows will be guided into new and godly paths of enhanced living. Our light should so shine as not to attract attention to self. Even one's vocation can be utilized as an effective "reflector" for the dissemination of this light of life.

Ê 140:4.6 Strong characters are not derived from not doing wrong but rather from actually doing right. Unselfishness is the badge of human greatness. The highest levels of self-realization are attained by worship and service. The happy and effective person is motivated, not by fear of wrongdoing, but by love of right doing.

Ê

Ê 140:4.7 "By their fruits you shall know them." Personality is basically changeless; that which changes -- grows -- is the moral character. The major error of modern religions is negativism. The tree which bears no fruit is "hewn down and cast into the fire." Moral worth cannot be derived from mere repression -- obeying the injunction "Thou shalt not." Fear and shame are unworthy motivations for religious living. Religion is valid only when it reveals the fatherhood of God and enhances the brotherhood of men.

Ê

Ê 140:4.8 An effective philosophy of living is formed by a combination of cosmic insight and the total of one's emotional reactions to the social and economic environment. Remember: While inherited urges cannot be fundamentally modified, emotional responses to such urges can be changed; therefore the moral nature can be modified, character can be improved. In the strong character emotional responses are integrated and co-ordinated, and thus is produced a unified personality. Deficient unification weakens the moral nature and engenders unhappiness.

Ê 140:4.9 Without a worthy goal, life becomes aimless and unprofitable, and much unhappiness results. Jesus' discourse at the ordination of the twelve constitutes a master philosophy of life. Jesus exhorted his followers to exercise experiential faith. He admonished them not to depend on mere intellectual assent, credulity, and established authority.

Ê 140:4.10 Education should be a technique of learning (discovering) the better methods of gratifying our natural and inherited urges, and happiness is the resulting total of these enhanced techniques of emotional satisfactions. Happiness is little dependent on environment, though pleasing surroundings may greatly contribute thereto.

Ê

Ê 140:4.11 Every mortal really craves to be a complete person, to be perfect even as the Father in heaven is perfect, and such attainment is possible because in the last analysis the "universe is truly fatherly."

Ê

ÊÊ
5. FATHERLY AND BROTHERLY LOVE

Ê 140:5.1 From the Sermon on the Mount to the discourse of the Last Supper, Jesus taught his followers to manifest fatherly love rather than brotherly love. Brotherly love would love your neighbor as you love yourself, and that would be adequate fulfillment of the "golden rule." But fatherly affection would require that you should love your fellow mortals as Jesus loves you.

Ê 140:5.2 Jesus loves mankind with a dual affection. He lived on earth as a twofold personality -- human and divine. As the Son of God he loves man with a fatherly love -- he is man's Creator, his universe Father. As the Son of Man, Jesus loves mortals as a brother -- he was truly a man among men.

Ê 140:5.3 Jesus did not expect his followers to achieve an impossible manifestation of brotherly love, but he did expect them to so strive to be like God -- to be perfect even as the Father in heaven is perfect -- that they could begin to look upon man as God looks upon his creatures and therefore could begin to love men as God loves them -- to show forth the beginnings of a fatherly affection. In the course of these exhortations to the twelve apostles, Jesus sought to reveal this new concept of fatherly love as it is related to certain emotional attitudes concerned in making numerous environmental social adjustments.

Ê

Ê 140:5.4 The Master introduced this momentous discourse by calling attention to four faith attitudes as the prelude to the subsequent portrayal of his four transcendent and supreme reactions of fatherly love in contrast to the limitations of mere brotherly love.

Ê 140:5.5 He first talked about those who were poor in spirit, hungered after righteousness, endured meekness, and who were pure in heart. Such spirit-discerning mortals could be expected to attain such levels of divine selflessness as to be able to attempt the amazing exercise of fatherly affection; that even as mourners they would be empowered to show mercy, promote peace, and endure persecutions, and throughout all of these trying situations to love even unlovely mankind with a fatherly love. A father's affection can attain levels of devotion that immeasurably transcend a brother's affection.

Ê 140:5.6 The faith and the love of these beatitudes strengthen moral character and create happiness. Fear and anger weaken character and destroy happiness. This momentous sermon started out upon the note of happiness.

Ê

Ê 140:5.7 1. "Happy are the poor in spirit -- the humble." To a child, happiness is the satisfaction of immediate pleasure craving. The adult is willing to sow seeds of self-denial in order to reap subsequent harvests of augmented happiness. In Jesus' times and since, happiness has all too often been associated with the idea of the possession of wealth. In the story of the Pharisee and the publican praying in the temple, the one felt rich in spirit -- egotistical; the other felt "poor in spirit" -- humble. One was self-sufficient; the other was teachable and truth-seeking. The poor in spirit seek for goals of spiritual wealth -- for God. And such seekers after truth do not have to wait for rewards in a distant future; they are rewarded now. They find the kingdom of heaven within their own hearts, and they experience such happiness now.

Ê

Ê 140:5.8 2. "Happy are they who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they shall be filled." Only those who feel poor in spirit will ever hunger for righteousness. Only the humble seek for divine strength and crave spiritual power. But it is most dangerous to knowingly engage in spiritual fasting in order to improve one's appetite for spiritual endowments. Physical fasting becomes dangerous after four or five days; one is apt to lose all desire for food. Prolonged fasting, either physical or spiritual, tends to destroy hunger.

Ê 140:5.9 Experiential righteousness is a pleasure, not a duty. Jesus' righteousness is a dynamic love -- fatherly-brotherly affection. It is not the negative or thou-shalt-not type of righteousness. How could one ever hunger for something negative -- something "not to do"?

Ê

Ê 140:5.10 It is not so easy to teach a child mind these first two of the beatitudes, but the mature mind should grasp their significance.

Ê

Ê 140:5.11 3. "Happy are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth." Genuine meekness has no relation to fear. It is rather an attitude of man co-operating with God -- "Your will be done." It embraces patience and forbearance and is motivated by an unshakable faith in a lawful and friendly universe. It masters all temptations to rebel against the divine leading. Jesus was the ideal meek man of Urantia, and he inherited a vast universe.

Ê

Ê 140:5.12 4. "Happy are the pure in heart, for they shall see God." Spiritual purity is not a negative quality, except that it does lack suspicion and revenge. In discussing purity, Jesus did not intend to deal exclusively with human sex attitudes. He referred more to that faith which man should have in his fellow man; that faith which a parent has in his child, and which enables him to love his fellows even as a father would love them. A father's love need not pamper, and it does not condone evil, but it is always anticynical. Fatherly love has singleness of purpose, and it always looks for the best in man; that is the attitude of a true parent.

Ê 140:5.13 To see God -- by faith -- means to acquire true spiritual insight. And spiritual insight enhances Adjuster guidance, and these in the end augment God-consciousness. And when you know the Father, you are confirmed in the assurance of divine sonship, and you can increasingly love each of your brothers in the flesh, not only as a brother -- with brotherly love -- but also as a father -- with fatherly affection.

Ê 140:5.14 It is easy to teach this admonition even to a child. Children are naturally trustful, and parents should see to it that they do not lose that simple faith. In dealing with children, avoid all deception and refrain from suggesting suspicion. Wisely help them to choose their heroes and select their lifework.

Ê

Ê 140:5.15 And then Jesus went on to instruct his followers in the realization of the chief purpose of all human struggling -- perfection -- even divine attainment. Always he admonished them: "Be you perfect, even as your Father in heaven is perfect." He did not exhort the twelve to love their neighbors as they loved themselves. That would have been a worthy achievement; it would have indicated the achievement of brotherly love. He rather admonished his apostles to love men as he had loved them -- to love with a fatherly as well as a brotherly affection. And he illustrated this by pointing out four supreme reactions of fatherly love:

Ê

Ê 140:5.16 1. "Happy are they who mourn, for they shall be comforted." So-called common sense or the best of logic would never suggest that happiness could be derived from mourning. But Jesus did not refer to outward or ostentatious mourning. He alluded to an emotional attitude of tenderheartedness. It is a great error to teach boys and young men that it is unmanly to show tenderness or otherwise to give evidence of emotional feeling or physical suffering. Sympathy is a worthy attribute of the male as well as the female. It is not necessary to be calloused in order to be manly. This is the wrong way to create courageous men. The world's great men have not been afraid to mourn. Moses, the mourner, was a greater man than either Samson or Goliath. Moses was a superb leader, but he was also a man of meekness. Being sensitive and responsive to human need creates genuine and lasting happiness, while such kindly attitudes safeguard the soul from the destructive influences of anger, hate, and suspicion.

Ê

Ê 140:5.17 2. "Happy are the merciful, for they shall obtain mercy." Mercy here denotes the height and depth and breadth of the truest friendship -- loving-kindness. Mercy sometimes may be passive, but here it is active and dynamic -- supreme fatherliness. A loving parent experiences little difficulty in forgiving his child, even many times. And in an unspoiled child the urge to relieve suffering is natural. Children are normally kind and sympathetic when old enough to appreciate actual conditions.

Ê

Ê 140:5.18 3. "Happy are the peacemakers, for they shall be called the sons of God." Jesus' hearers were longing for military deliverance, not for peacemakers. But Jesus' peace is not of the pacific and negative kind. In the face of trials and persecutions he said, "My peace I leave with you." "Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid." This is the peace that prevents ruinous conflicts. Personal peace integrates personality. Social peace prevents fear, greed, and anger. Political peace prevents race antagonisms, national suspicions, and war. Peacemaking is the cure of distrust and suspicion.

Ê 140:5.19 Children can easily be taught to function as peacemakers. They enjoy team activities; they like to play together. Said the Master at another time: "Whosoever will save his life shall lose it, but whosoever will lose his life shall find it."

Ê

Ê 140:5.20 4. "Happy are they who are persecuted for righteousness' sake, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. Happy are you when men shall revile you and persecute you and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely. Rejoice and be exceedingly glad, for great is your reward in heaven."

Ê 140:5.21 So often persecution does follow peace. But young people and brave adults never shun difficulty or danger. "Greater love has no man than to lay down his life for his friends." And a fatherly love can freely do all these things -- things which brotherly love can hardly encompass. And progress has always been the final harvest of persecution.

ÊÊ140:5.22 Children always respond to the challenge of courage. Youth is ever willing to "take a dare." And every child should early learn to sacrifice.

Ê

Ê 140:5.23 And so it is revealed that the beatitudes of the Sermon on the Mount are based on faith and love and not on law -- ethics and duty.

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Ê 140:5.24 Fatherly love delights in returning good for evil -- doing good in retaliation for injustice.

Ê

ÊÊ
6. THE EVENING OF THE ORDINATION

Ê 140:6.1 Sunday evening, on reaching the home of Zebedee from the highlands north of Capernaum, Jesus and the twelve partook of a simple meal. Afterward, while Jesus went for a walk along the beach, the twelve talked among themselves. After a brief conference, while the twins built a small fire to give them warmth and more light, Andrew went out to find Jesus, and when he had overtaken him, he said: "Master, my brethren are unable to comprehend what you have said about the kingdom. We do not feel able to begin this work until you have given us further instruction. I have come to ask you to join us in the garden and help us to understand the meaning of your words." And Jesus went with Andrew to meet with the apostles.

Ê 140:6.2 When he had entered the garden, he gathered the apostles around him and taught them further, saying: "You find it difficult to receive my message because you would build the new teaching directly upon the old, but I declare that you must be reborn. You must start out afresh as little children and be willing to trust my teaching and believe in God. The new gospel of the kingdom cannot be made to conform to that which is. You have wrong ideas of the Son of Man and his mission on earth. But do not make the mistake of thinking that I have come to set aside the law and the prophets; I have not come to destroy but to fulfill, to enlarge and illuminate. I come not to transgress the law but rather to write these new commandments on the tablets of your hearts.

Ê 140:6.3 "I demand of you a righteousness that shall exceed the righteousness of those who seek to obtain the Father's favor by almsgiving, prayer, and fasting. If you would enter the kingdom, you must have a righteousness that consists in love, mercy, and truth -- the sincere desire to do the will of my Father in heaven."

Ê 140:6.4 Then said Simon Peter: "Master, if you have a new commandment, we would hear it. Reveal the new way to us." Jesus answered Peter: "You have heard it said by those who teach the law: `You shall not kill; that whosoever kills shall be subject to judgment.' But I look beyond the act to uncover the motive. I declare to you that every one who is angry with his brother is in danger of condemnation. He who nurses hatred in his heart and plans vengeance in his mind stands in danger of judgment. You must judge your fellows by their deeds; the Father in heaven judges by the intent.

Ê 140:6.5 "You have heard the teachers of the law say, `You shall not commit adultery.' But I say to you that every man who looks upon a woman with intent to lust after her has already committed adultery with her in his heart. You can only judge men by their acts, but my Father looks into the hearts of his children and in mercy adjudges them in accordance with their intents and real desires."

Ê 140:6.6 Jesus was minded to go on discussing the other commandments when James Zebedee interrupted him, asking: "Master, what shall we teach the people regarding divorcement? Shall we allow a man to divorce his wife as Moses has directed?" And when Jesus heard this question, he said: "I have not come to legislate but to enlighten. I have come not to reform the kingdoms of this world but rather to establish the kingdom of heaven. It is not the will of the Father that I should yield to the temptation to teach you rules of government, trade, or social behavior, which, while they might be good for today, would be far from suitable for the society of another age. I am on earth solely to comfort the minds, liberate the spirits, and save the souls of men. But I will say , concerning this question of divorcement, that, while Moses looked with favor upon such things, it was not so in the days of Adam and in the Garden."

Ê 140:6.7 After the apostles had talked among themselves for a short time, Jesus went on to say: "Always must you recognize the two viewpoints of all mortal conduct -- the human and the divine; the ways of the flesh and the way of the spirit; the estimate of time and the viewpoint of eternity." And though the twelve could not comprehend all that he taught them, they were truly helped by this instruction.

Ê 140:6.8 And then said Jesus: "But you will stumble over my teaching because you are wont to interpret my message literally; you are slow to discern the spirit of my teaching. Again must you remember that you are my messengers; you are beholden to live your lives as I have in spirit lived mine. You are my personal representatives; but do not err in expecting all men to live as you do in every particular. Also must you remember that I have sheep not of this flock, and that I am beholden to them also, to the end that I must provide for them the pattern of doing the will of God while living the life of the mortal nature."

Ê 140:6.9 Then asked Nathaniel: "Master, shall we give no place to justice? The law of Moses says, `An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth.' What shall we say?" And Jesus answered: "You shall return good for evil. My messengers must not strive with men, but be gentle toward all. Measure for measure shall not be your rule. The rulers of men may have such laws, but not so in the kingdom; mercy always shall determine your judgments and love your conduct. And if these are hard sayings, you can even now turn back. If you find the requirements of apostleship too hard, you may return to the less rigorous pathway of discipleship."

Ê 140:6.10 On hearing these startling words, the apostles drew apart by themselves for a while, but they soon returned, and Peter said: "Master, we would go on with you; not one of us would turn back. We are fully prepared to pay the extra price; we will drink the cup. We would be apostles, not merely disciples."

Ê 140:6.11 When Jesus heard this, he said: "Be willing, then, to take up your responsibilities and follow me. Do your good deeds in secret; when you give alms, let not the left hand know what the right hand does. And when you pray, go apart by yourselves and use not vain repetitions and meaningless phrases. Always remember that the Father knows what you need even before you ask him. And be not given to fasting with a sad countenance to be seen by men. As my chosen apostles, now set apart for the service of the kingdom, lay not up for yourselves treasures on earth, but by your unselfish service lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, for where your treasures are, there will your hearts be also.

Ê 140:6.12 "The lamp of the body is the eye; if, therefore, your eye is generous, your whole body will be full of light. But if your eye is selfish, the whole body will be filled with darkness. If the very light which is in you is turned to darkness, how great is that darkness!"

Ê 140:6.13 And then Thomas asked Jesus if they should "continue having everything in common." Said the Master: "Yes, my brethren, I would that we should live together as one understanding family. You are intrusted with a great work, and I crave your undivided service. You know that it has been well said: `No man can serve two masters.' You cannot sincerely worship God and at the same time wholeheartedly serve mammon. Having now enlisted unreservedly in the work of the kingdom, be not anxious for your lives; much less be concerned with what you shall eat or what you shall drink; nor yet for your bodies, what clothing you shall wear. Already have you learned that willing hands and earnest hearts shall not go hungry. And now, when you prepare to devote all of your energies to the work of the kingdom, be assured that the Father will not be unmindful of your needs. Seek first the kingdom of God, and when you have found entrance thereto, all things needful shall be added to you. Be not, therefore, unduly anxious for the morrow. Sufficient for the day is the trouble thereof."

Ê 140:6.14 When Jesus saw they were disposed to stay up all night to ask questions, he said to them: "My brethren, you are earthen vessels; it is best for you to go to your rest so as to be ready for the morrow's work." But sleep had departed from their eyes. Peter ventured to request of his Master that "I have just a little private talk with you. Not that I would have secrets from my brethren, but I have a troubled spirit, and if, perchance, I should deserve a rebuke from my Master, I could the better endure it alone with you." And Jesus said, "Come with me, Peter" -- leading the way into the house. When Peter returned from the presence of his Master much cheered and greatly encouraged, James decided to go in to talk with Jesus. And so on through the early hours of the morning, the other apostles went in one by one to talk with the Master. When they had all held personal conferences with him save the twins, who had fallen asleep, Andrew went in to Jesus and said: "Master, the twins have fallen asleep in the garden by the fire; shall I arouse them to inquire if they would also talk with you?" And Jesus smilingly said to Andrew, "They do well -- trouble them not." And now the night was passing; the light of another day was dawning.
http://urantiabook.org/newbook/papers/p140.htm


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[Aphrodite]

Dawn Moline

Member
Member # 2173

Member Rated:
   posted 12-04-2004 07:55 PM                       
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Calvin,
I think that Absonite has illustrated for all of us just how inconsistent the Bible is. Doesn't mean there is no God, simply that you can't believe everything that is written there. To place such stock in something that may well be in error is a fruitless course. I hate to say it because I have only been reading your posts for about a week now, but I also think that your thinking might be a little backward. You believe the Bible story about the ark, almost verbatim. Does that mean that you also believe creationism verbatim as well? I believe that the traditional Bible belief holds that the world is about six thousand years old, even calculated the date to something like 4100 b.c. We know that the world is at least seven billion years old, the universe might be fourteen billion years old. There's an obvious discrepancy there.

Absonite,

I read the passages you provided me about God's nature from the Urantia Book. They do indeed show a more understandable and compassionate god then the one we know from the Old Testament. (It's clear, by the way that others like Calvin, have no interest in reading anything new about God, by the way, for fear it might conflict with their rigid Biblical beliefs). For me, though, I still hold that if we take a more scientific look at God, the only sound belief for why there is so much sorrow and imperfection in the world is that God, though perhaps all-powerful, has to be an imperfect being as well (sorry if that offends anyone, just my own personal observation). God means well, some things are just simply beyond God's control. They have to be. There can be no other logical excuse.

I'm disappointed that no one yet sees the logic in the idea of a human god.

 

[Aphrodite]

Calvin Noble

Member
Member # 2238

Rate Member   posted 12-04-2004 09:33 PM                       
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Dawn,
I reject your characterization of me as "backwards-thinking." I could just as easily characterize you from some of the things you've written as the writings of some Bohemian who's had one too many joints. You don't know me. You don't know the extents of what I believe, and you should refrain from jumping to conclusions and offering labels to people that you don't know.

As for your own characterization of a human god, no one has offered much discussion about it because who would want to believe in such a thing? God is something HIGHER than all of us. We musn't bring HIM lower, and yes, I do believe that God is a HIM, as do, I believe, most people here.

Absonite,

If you have no hoslity towards the Bible, then I am sorry for implying that you did. However, the reason why the Bible continues to carry the weight that it still has is because their tradition is strong, these stories have existed for thousands of years, first by oral tradition, then by written language. The Bible was the first book ever published and it remains the best-selling, most read book ever. Does the Urantia Book have the same tradition? Hardly. I like the excerpts you have printed here and would like to read more, but one brick should be built atop the other, not at the expense of another.

God has always been the greatest puzzle in the universe, I doubt if any of us could ever come to actually understand HIM.


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[Aphrodite]

Absonite

Member
Member # 1766

  posted 12-04-2004 10:24 PM                       
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Dawn,
"the only sound belief for why there is so much sorrow and imperfection in the world is that God, though perhaps all-powerful, has to be an imperfect being as well (...). God means well, some things are just simply beyond God's control. They have to be. There can be no other logical excuse. "

First of all before we get into your statement (which I find completely amazing) I think you might have to give Calvin a little bit of latitude since he is just starting to question some of this like yourself, and we don't really know where he is going and how he will develop. You may be completely correct about him. We will see. I do find it quite interesting though how you can make that judgement about him and then in the next paragraph conclude what I quoted above.

I find your "scientific logic" about God's imperfection quite interesting and actually phenomenal. To me, God can be nothing less than completely perfect. Of course to me, I have never experienced anything perfect and I believe no one on this planet has either. That goes for beings as well as things. Neither you nor I know anything that is perfect. To us, it is merely a concept, like infinity. The finite cannot understand infinity. Similiarly, the imperfect cannot understand perfection. It is an idea of an ideal. It is a mystery to us. We are born, live and die in a short period of time. Let's just say 100 years for a round number. Now, there is the hint that we will eventually become infinite beings. That means that we will live like others who have experienced it, for not a thousand years, not a million and not a billion years. We will live beyond time. You will eventually be trillions of years old and more. You will inhabit and experience eternity. There are beings who made the universe. There are beings who have traversed the entire circle of time and eternity from the beginnings like yourself from the womb to stand in the very presence of God in ..... call it heaven. Some of the authors of some of the papers in the Urantia papers telling you about God are some such beings. At the end of Paper 1, you find this statement:

"1:7.9 Presented by a Divine Counselor, a member of a group of celestial personalities assigned by the Ancients of Days on Uversa, the headquarters of the seventh superuniverse, to supervise those portions of this forthcoming revelation which have to do with affairs beyond the borders of the local universe of Nebadon. I am commissioned to sponsor those papers portraying the nature and attributes of God because I represent the highest source of information available for such a purpose on any inhabited world. I have served as a Divine Counselor in all seven of the superuniverses and have long resided at the Paradise center of all things. Many times have I enjoyed the supreme pleasure of a sojourn in the immediate personal presence of the Universal Father. I portray the reality and truth of the Father's nature and attributes with unchallengeable authority; I know whereof I speak."

Now, that may just be words to you and you might think that the person who wrote it, is really wacked out. I think any day you can walk into any nut house in the country and find several people walking around saying they are Jesus, Moses, king Tut, Plato, Charlie manson, Cleopatra, or whatever. But what you may one day realize if you ever read the Urantia papers and understand them is that the contents of the papers that this so-called Divine counselor from Uversa can be nothing less than who he/she says he is.

Now, imagine that this "counselor" is at least a trillion years old and he or she has been given the task in this revelation to tell you a little bit about God. The perfect God by the way. What is most interesting though is that God "is no respecter of persons" and even though compared to this being you are virtually non-existant in a spiritual sense, a grain of sand in a mountain of infinity, God loves you equally as much as He loves this so-called Divine counselor. Can you comprehend that?

Here are a few words from paper 3 that this same Divine counselor uses to try to explain to you some of the attributes of Gods "perfectness". And, I would hope that it inspires you to learn a little bit more about how God can be nothing less than perfect. Your (our), primitive, finite "Logic" , incomprehensibility, and misunderstanding has absolutely nothing to do with God.

******

2. GOD'S INFINITE POWER

3:2.1 All the universes know that "the Lord God omnipotent reigns." The affairs of this world and other worlds are divinely supervised. "He does according to his will in the army of heaven and among the inhabitants of the earth." It is eternally true, "there is no power but of God."

3:2.2 Within the bounds of that which is consistent with the divine nature, it is literally true that "with God all things are possible." The long-drawn-out evolutionary processes of peoples, planets, and universes are under the perfect control of the universe creators and administrators and unfold in accordance with the eternal purpose of the Universal Father, proceeding in harmony and order and in keeping with the all-wise plan of God. There is only one lawgiver. He upholds the worlds in space and swings the universes around the endless circle of the eternal circuit.

3:2.3 Of all the divine attributes, his omnipotence, especially as it prevails in the material universe, is the best understood. Viewed as an unspiritual phenomenon, God is energy. This declaration of physical fact is predicated on the incomprehensible truth that the First Source and Center is the primal cause of the universal physical phenomena of all space. From this divine activity all physical energy and other material manifestations are derived. Light, that is, light without heat, is another of the nonspiritual manifestations of the Deities. And there is still another form of nonspiritual energy which is virtually unknown on Urantia; it is as yet unrecognized.

3:2.4 God controls all power; he has made "a way for the lightning"; he has ordained the circuits of all energy. He has decreed the time and manner of the manifestation of all forms of energy-matter. And all these things are held forever in his everlasting grasp -- in the gravitational control centering on nether Paradise. The light and energy of the eternal God thus swing on forever around his majestic circuit, the endless but orderly procession of the starry hosts composing the universe of universes. All creation circles eternally around the Paradise-Personality center of all things and beings.

3:2.5 The omnipotence of the Father pertains to the everywhere dominance of the absolute level, whereon the three energies, material, mindal, and spiritual, are indistinguishable in close proximity to him -- the Source of all things. Creature mind, being neither Paradise monota nor Paradise spirit, is not directly responsive to the Universal Father. God adjusts with the mind of imperfection -- with Urantia mortals through the Thought Adjusters.


3:2.6 The Universal Father is not a transient force, a shifting power, or a fluctuating energy. The power and wisdom of the Father are wholly adequate to cope with any and all universe exigencies. As the emergencies of human experience arise, he has foreseen them all, and therefore he does not react to the affairs of the universe in a detached way but rather in accordance with the dictates of eternal wisdom and in consonance with the mandates of infinite judgment. Regardless of appearances, the power of God is not functioning in the universe as a blind force.

3:2.7 Situations do arise in which it appears that emergency rulings have been made, that natural laws have been suspended, that misadaptations have been recognized, and that an effort is being made to rectify the situation; but such is not the case. Such concepts of God have their origin in the limited range of your viewpoint, in the finiteness of your comprehension, and in the circumscribed scope of your survey; such misunderstanding of God is due to the profound ignorance you enjoy regarding the existence of the higher laws of the realm, the magnitude of the Father's character, the infinity of his attributes, and the fact of his free-willness.

3:2.8 The planetary creatures of God's spirit indwelling, scattered hither and yon throughout the universes of space, are so nearly infinite in number and order, their intellects are so diverse, their minds are so limited and sometimes so gross, their vision is so curtailed and localized, that it is almost impossible to formulate generalizations of law adequately expressive of the Father's infinite attributes and at the same time to any degree comprehensible to these created intelligences. Therefore, to you the creature, many of the acts of the all-powerful Creator seem to be arbitrary, detached, and not infrequently heartless and cruel. But again I assure you that this is not true. God's doings are all purposeful, intelligent, wise, kind, and eternally considerate of the best good, not always of an individual being, an individual race, an individual planet, or even an individual universe; but they are for the welfare and best good of all concerned, from the lowest to the highest. In the epochs of time the welfare of the part may sometimes appear to differ from the welfare of the whole; in the circle of eternity such apparent differences are nonexistent.

3:2.9 We are all a part of the family of God, and we must therefore sometimes share in the family discipline. Many of the acts of God which so disturb and confuse us are the result of the decisions and final rulings of all-wisdom, empowering the Conjoint Actor to execute the choosing of the infallible will of the infinite mind, to enforce the decisions of the personality of perfection, whose survey, vision, and solicitude embrace the highest and eternal welfare of all his vast and far-flung creation.

3:2.10 Thus it is that your detached, sectional, finite, gross, and highly materialistic viewpoint and the limitations inherent in the nature of your being constitute such a handicap that you are unable to see, comprehend, or know the wisdom and kindness of many of the divine acts which to you seem fraught with such crushing cruelty, and which seem to be characterized by such utter indifference to the comfort and welfare, to the planetary happiness and personal prosperity, of your fellow creatures. It is because of the limits of human vision, it is because of your circumscribed understanding and finite comprehension, that you misunderstand the motives, and pervert the purposes, of God. But many things occur on the evolutionary worlds which are not the personal doings of the Universal Father.


3:2.11 The divine omnipotence is perfectly co-ordinated with the other attributes of the personality of God. The power of God is, ordinarily, only limited in its universe spiritual manifestation by three conditions or situations:

1. By the nature of God, especially by his infinite love, by truth, beauty, and goodness.

2. By the will of God, by his mercy ministry and fatherly relationship with the personalities of the universe.

3. By the law of God, by the righteousness and justice of the eternal Paradise Trinity.

3:2.12 God is unlimited in power, divine in nature, final in will, infinite in attributes, eternal in wisdom, and absolute in reality. But all these characteristics of the Universal Father are unified in Deity and universally expressed in the Paradise Trinity and in the divine Sons of the Trinity. Otherwise, outside of Paradise and the central universe of Havona, everything pertaining to God is limited by the evolutionary presence of the Supreme, conditioned by the eventuating presence of the Ultimate, and co-ordinated by the three existential Absolutes -- Deity, Universal, and Unqualified. And God's presence is thus limited because such is the will of God.


3. GOD'S UNIVERSAL KNOWLEDGE

3:3.1 "God knows all things." The divine mind is conscious of, and conversant with, the thought of all creation. His knowledge of events is universal and perfect. The divine entities going out from him are a part of him; he who "balances the clouds" is also "perfect in knowledge." "The eyes of the Lord are in every place." Said your great teacher of the insignificant sparrow, "One of them shall not fall to the ground without my Father's knowledge," and also, "The very hairs of your head are numbered." "He tells the number of the stars; he calls them all by their names."

3:3.2 The Universal Father is the only personality in all the universe who does actually know the number of the stars and planets of space. All the worlds of every universe are constantly within the consciousness of God. He also says: "I have surely seen the affliction of my people, I have heard their cry, and I know their sorrows." For "the Lord looks from heaven; he beholds all the sons of men; from the place of his habitation he looks upon all the inhabitants of the earth." Every creature child may truly say: "He knows the way I take, and when he has tried me, I shall come forth as gold." "God knows our downsittings and our uprisings; he understands our thoughts afar off and is acquainted with all our ways." "All things are naked and open to the eyes of him with whom we have to do." And it should be a real comfort to every human being to understand that "he knows your frame; he remembers that you are dust." Jesus, speaking of the living God, said, "Your Father knows what you have need of even before you ask him."

3:3.3 God is possessed of unlimited power to know all things; his consciousness is universal. His personal circuit encompasses all personalities, and his knowledge of even the lowly creatures is supplemented indirectly through the descending series of divine Sons and directly through the indwelling Thought Adjusters. And furthermore, the Infinite Spirit is all the time everywhere present.

3:3.4 We are not wholly certain as to whether or not God chooses to foreknow events of sin. But even if God should foreknow the freewill acts of his children, such foreknowledge does not in the least abrogate their freedom. One thing is certain: God is never subjected to surprise.


3:3.5 Omnipotence does not imply the power to do the nondoable, the ungodlike act. Neither does omniscience imply the knowing of the unknowable. But such statements can hardly be made comprehensible to the finite mind. The creature can hardly understand the range and limitations of the will of the Creator.


4. GOD'S LIMITLESSNESS

3:4.1 The successive bestowal of himself upon the universes as they are brought into being in no wise lessens the potential of power or the store of wisdom as they continue to reside and repose in the central personality of Deity. In potential of force, wisdom, and love, the Father has never lessened aught of his possession nor become divested of any attribute of his glorious personality as the result of the unstinted bestowal of himself upon the Paradise Sons, upon his subordinate creations, and upon the manifold creatures thereof.

3:4.2 The creation of every new universe calls for a new adjustment of gravity; but even if creation should continue indefinitely, eternally, even to infinity, so that eventually the material creation would exist without limitations, still the power of control and co-ordination reposing in the Isle of Paradise would be found equal to, and adequate for, the mastery, control, and co-ordination of such an infinite universe. And subsequent to this bestowal of limitless force and power upon a boundless universe, the Infinite would still be surcharged with the same degree of force and energy; the Unqualified Absolute would still be undiminished; God would still possess the same infinite potential, just as if force, energy, and power had never been poured forth for the endowment of universe upon universe.

3:4.3 And so with wisdom: The fact that mind is so freely distributed to the thinking of the realms in no wise impoverishes the central source of divine wisdom. As the universes multiply, and beings of the realms increase in number to the limits of comprehension, if mind continues without end to be bestowed upon these beings of high and low estate, still will God's central personality continue to embrace the same eternal, infinite, and all-wise mind.

3:4.4 The fact that he sends forth spirit messengers from himself to indwell the men and women of your world and other worlds in no wise lessens his ability to function as a divine and all-powerful spirit personality; and there is absolutely no limit to the extent or number of such spirit Monitors which he can and may send out. This giving of himself to his creatures creates a boundless, almost inconceivable future possibility of progressive and successive existences for these divinely endowed mortals. And this prodigal distribution of himself as these ministering spirit entities in no manner diminishes the wisdom and perfection of truth and knowledge which repose in the person of the all-wise, all-knowing, and all-powerful Father.


3:4.5 To the mortals of time there is a future, but God inhabits eternity. Even though I hail from near the very abiding place of Deity, I cannot presume to speak with perfection of understanding concerning the infinity of many of the divine attributes. Infinity of mind alone can fully comprehend infinity of existence and eternity of action.


3:4.6 Mortal man cannot possibly know the infinitude of the heavenly Father. Finite mind cannot think through such an absolute truth or fact. But this same finite human being can actually feel -- literally experience -- the full and undiminished impact of such an infinite Father's LOVE. Such a love can be truly experienced, albeit while quality of experience is unlimited, quantity of such an experience is strictly limited by the human capacity for spiritual receptivity and by the associated capacity to love the Father in return.

3:4.7 Finite appreciation of infinite qualities far transcends the logically limited capacities of the creature because of the fact that mortal man is made in the image of God -- there lives within him a fragment of infinity. Therefore man's nearest and dearest approach to God is by and through love, for God is love. And all of such a unique relationship is an actual experience in cosmic sociology, the Creator-creature relationship -- the Father-child affection.

http://urantiabook.org/newbook/papers/p003.htm




 

[Aphrodite]

Absonite

Member
Member # 1766

  posted 12-04-2004 10:50 PM                       
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Sorry Calvin,
I was writing to Dawn at the same time that you were writing to her, except that mine was taking a bit longer.

All i can say in response to you about the bible and Urantia is that they said the same thing about Jesus.
and in response to building the new upon the old......


"140:6.2 When he had entered the garden, he gathered the apostles around him and taught them further, saying: "You find it difficult to receive my message because you would build the new teaching directly upon the old, but I declare that you must be reborn. You must start out afresh as little children and be willing to trust my teaching and believe in God. The new gospel of the kingdom cannot be made to conform to that which is. You have wrong ideas of the Son of Man and his mission on earth. But do not make the mistake of thinking that I have come to set aside the law and the prophets; I have not come to destroy but to fulfill, to enlarge and illuminate. I come not to transgress the law but rather to write these new commandments on the tablets of your hearts."


*************




[This message has been edited by Absonite (edited 12-04-2004).]


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[Aphrodite]

Absonite

Member
Member # 1766

  posted 12-04-2004 11:23 PM                       
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Calvin,
And furthermore you say.......

"However, the reason why the Bible continues to carry the weight that it still has is because their tradition is strong, these stories have existed for thousands of years, first by oral tradition, then by written language. The Bible was the first book ever published and it remains the best-selling, most read book ever. Does the Urantia Book have the same tradition? Hardly."

This is really a very silly argument, but quite common and not unexpected, in fact quite understandable. To you Christianity, or The BIBLE is your "Religion of Authority" As you say, it's a best seller and been around for 2000 years. Now remember, Judiasm was around for 2000 before that. IT was the "Religion of Authority."


read this carefully please and meditate on it because you could say it was written especially for you.

5. THE DISCOURSE ON TRUE RELIGION


155:5.1 This memorable discourse on religion, summarized and restated in modern phraseology, gave expression to the following truths:


155:5.2 While the religions of the world have a double origin -- natural and revelatory -- at any one time and among any one people there are to be found three distinct forms of religious devotion. And these three manifestations of the religious urge are:


155:5.3 1. Primitive religion. The seminatural and instinctive urge to fear mysterious energies and worship superior forces, chiefly a religion of the physical nature, the religion of fear.


155:5.4 2. The religion of civilization. The advancing religious concepts and practices of the civilizing races -- the religion of the mind -- the intellectual theology of the authority of established religious tradition.


155:5.5 3. True religion -- the religion of revelation. The revelation of supernatural values, a partial insight into eternal realities, a glimpse of the goodness and beauty of the infinite character of the Father in heaven -- the religion of the spirit as demonstrated in human experience.


155:5.6 The religion of the physical senses and the superstitious fears of natural man, the Master refused to belittle, though he deplored the fact that so much of this primitive form of worship should persist in the religious forms of the more intelligent races of mankind. Jesus made it clear that the great difference between the religion of the mind and the religion of the spirit is that, while the former is upheld by ecclesiastical authority, the latter is wholly based on human experience.


155:5.7 And then the Master, in his hour of teaching, went on to make clear these truths:


155:5.8 Until the races become highly intelligent and more fully civilized, there will persist many of those childlike and superstitious ceremonies which are so characteristic of the evolutionary religious practices of primitive and backward peoples. Until the human race progresses to the level of a higher and more general recognition of the realities of spiritual experience, large numbers of men and women will continue to show a personal preference for those religions of authorityÊ which require only intellectual assent, in contrast to the religion of the spirit, which entails active participation of mind and soul in the faith adventure of grappling with the rigorous realities of progressive human experience.

155:5.9 The acceptance of the traditional Êreligions of authorityÊ presents the easy way out for man's urge to seek satisfaction for the longings of his spiritual nature. The settled, crystallized, and established Êreligions of authorityÊ afford a ready refuge to which the distracted and distraught soul of man may flee when harassed by fear and tormented by uncertainty. Such a religion requires of its devotees, as the price to be paid for its satisfactions and assurances, only a passive and purely intellectual assent.

155:5.10 And for a long time there will live on earth those timid, fearful, and hesitant individuals who will prefer thus to secure their religious consolations, even though, in so casting their lot with the Êreligions of authorityÊ, they compromise the sovereignty of personality, debase the dignity of self-respect, and utterly surrender the right to participate in that most thrilling and inspiring of all possible human experiences: the personal quest for truth, the exhilaration of facing the perils of intellectual discovery, the determination to explore the realities of personal religious experience, the supreme satisfaction of experiencing the personal triumph of the actual realization of the victory of spiritual faith over intellectual doubt as it is honestly won in the supreme adventure of all human existence -- man seeking God, for himself and as himself, and finding him.

155:5.11 The religion of the spirit means effort, struggle, conflict, faith, determination, love, loyalty, and progress. The religion of the mind -- the theology of authority -- requires little or none of these exertions from its formal believers. Tradition is a safe refuge and an easy path for those fearful and halfhearted souls who instinctively shun the spirit struggles and mental uncertainties associated with those faith voyages of daring adventure out upon the high seas of unexplored truth in search for the farther shores of spiritual realities as they may be discovered by the progressive human mind and experienced by the evolving human soul.


155:5.12 And Jesus went on to say: "At Jerusalem the religious leaders have formulated the various doctrines of their traditional teachers and the prophets of other days into an established system of intellectual beliefs, a Êreligion of authorityÊ. The appeal of all such religions is largely to the mind. And now are we about to enter upon a deadly conflict with such a religion since we will so shortly begin the bold proclamation of a new religion -- a religion which is not a religion in the present-day meaning of that word, a religion that makes its chief appeal to the divine spirit of my Father which resides in the mind of man; a religion which shall derive its authority from the fruits of its acceptance that will so certainly appear in the personal experience of all who really and truly become believers in the truths of this higher spiritual communion."

155:5.13 Pointing out each of the twenty-four and calling them by name, Jesus said: "And now, which one of you would prefer to take this easy path of conformity to an established and fossilized religion, as defended by the Pharisees at Jerusalem, rather than to suffer the difficulties and persecutions attendant upon the mission of proclaiming a better way of salvation to men while you realize the satisfaction of discovering for yourselves the beauties of the realities of a living and personal experience in the eternal truths and supreme grandeurs of the kingdom of heaven? Are you fearful, soft, and ease-seeking? Are you afraid to trust your future in the hands of the God of truth, whose sons you are? Are you distrustful of the Father, whose children you are? Will you go back to the easy path of the certainty and intellectual settledness of the religion of traditional authority, or will you gird yourselves to go forward with me into that uncertain and troublous future of proclaiming the new truths of the religion of the spirit, the kingdom of heaven in the hearts of men?"

155:5.14 All twenty-four of his hearers rose to their feet, intending to signify their united and loyal response to this, one of the few emotional appeals which Jesus ever made to them, but he raised his hand and stopped them, saying: "Go now apart by yourselves, each man alone with the Father, and there find the unemotional answer to my question, and having found such a true and sincere attitude of soul, speak that answer freely and boldly to my Father and your Father, whose infinite life of love is the very spirit of the religion we proclaim."

155:5.15 The evangelists and apostles went apart by themselves for a short time. Their spirits were uplifted, their minds were inspired, and their emotions mightily stirred by what Jesus had said. But when Andrew called them together, the Master said only: "Let us resume our journey. We go into Phoenicia to tarry for a season, and all of you should pray the Father to transform your emotions of mind and body into the higher loyalties of mind and the more satisfying experiences of the spirit."

155:5.16 As they journeyed on down the road, the twenty-four were silent, but presently they began to talk one with another, and by three o'clock that afternoon they could not go farther; they came to a halt, and Peter, going up to Jesus, said: "Master, you have spoken to us the words of life and truth. We would hear more; we beseech you to speak to us further concerning these matters."


6. THE SECOND DISCOURSE ON RELIGION


155:6.1 And so, while they paused in the shade of the hillside, Jesus continued to teach them regarding the religion of the spirit, in substance saying:


155:6.2 You have come out from among those of your fellows who choose to remain satisfied with a religion of mind, who crave security and prefer conformity. You have elected to exchange your feelings of authoritative certainty for the assurances of the spirit of adventurous and progressive faith. You have dared to protest against the grueling bondage of institutional religion and to reject the authority of the traditions of record which are now regarded as the word of God. Our Father did indeed speak through Moses, Elijah, Isaiah, Amos, and Hosea, but he did not cease to minister words of truth to the world when these prophets of old made an end of their utterances. My Father is no respecter of races or generations in that the word of truth is vouchsafed one age and withheld from another. Commit not the folly of calling that divine which is wholly human, and fail not to discern the words of truth which come not through the traditional oracles of supposed inspiration.


155:6.3 I have called upon you to be born again, to be born of the spirit. I have called you out of the darkness of authority and the lethargy of tradition into the transcendent light of the realization of the possibility of making for yourselves the greatest discovery possible for the human soul to make -- the supernal experience of finding God for yourself, in yourself, and of yourself, and of doing all this as a fact in your own personal experience. And so may you pass from death to life, from the authority of tradition to the experience of knowing God; thus will you pass from darkness to light, from a racial faith inherited to a personal faith achieved by actual experience; and thereby will you progress from a theology of mind handed down by your ancestors to a true religion of spirit which shall be built up in your souls as an eternal endowment.

155:6.4 Your religion shall change from the mere intellectual belief in traditional authority to the actual experience of that living faith which is able to grasp the reality of God and all that relates to the divine spirit of the Father. The religion of the mind ties you hopelessly to the past; the religion of the spirit consists in progressive revelation and ever beckons you on toward higher and holier achievements in spiritual ideals and eternal realities.

155:6.5 While the Êreligion of authorityÊ may impart a present feeling of settled security, you pay for such a transient satisfaction the price of the loss of your spiritual freedom and religious liberty. My Father does not require of you as the price of entering the kingdom of heaven that you should force yourself to subscribe to a belief in things which are spiritually repugnant, unholy, and untruthful. It is not required of you that your own sense of mercy, justice, and truth should be outraged by submission to an outworn system of religious forms and ceremonies. The religion of the spirit leaves you forever free to follow the truth wherever the leadings of the spirit may take you. And who can judge -- perhaps this spirit may have something to impart to this generation which other generations have refused to hear?

155:6.6 Shame on those false religious teachers who would drag hungry souls back into the dim and distant past and there leave them! And so are these unfortunate persons doomed to become frightened by every new discovery, while they are discomfited by every new revelation of truth. The prophet who said, "He will be kept in perfect peace whose mind is stayed on God," was not a mere intellectual believer in authoritative theology. This truth-knowing human had discovered God; he was not merely talking about God.

155:6.7 I admonish you to give up the practice of always quoting the prophets of old and praising the heroes of Israel, and instead aspire to become living prophets of the Most High and spiritual heroes of the coming kingdom. To honor the God-knowing leaders of the past may indeed be worth while, but why, in so doing, should you sacrifice the supreme experience of human existence: finding God for yourselves and knowing him in your own souls?

155:6.8 Every race of mankind has its own mental outlook upon human existence; therefore must the religion of the mind ever run true to these various racial viewpoints. Never can the Êreligions of authorityÊ come to unification. Human unity and mortal brotherhood can be achieved only by and through the superendowment of the religion of the spirit. Racial minds may differ, but all mankind is indwelt by the same divine and eternal spirit. The hope of human brotherhood can only be realized when, and as, the divergent mind Êreligions of authorityÊ become impregnated with, and overshadowed by, the unifying and ennobling religion of the spirit -- the religion of personal spiritual experience.

155:6.9 The Êreligions of authorityÊ can only divide men and set them in conscientious array against each other; the religion of the spirit will progressively draw men together and cause them to become understandingly sympathetic with one another. The Êreligions of authorityÊ require of men uniformity in belief, but this is impossible of realization in the present state of the world. The religion of the spirit requires only unity of experience -- uniformity of destiny -- making full allowance for diversity of belief. The religion of the spirit requires only uniformity of insight, not uniformity of viewpoint and outlook. The religion of the spirit does not demand uniformity of intellectual views, only unity of spirit feeling. The Êreligions of authorityÊ crystallize into lifeless creeds; the religion of the spirit grows into the increasing joy and liberty of ennobling deeds of loving service and merciful ministration.

155:6.10 But watch, lest any of you look with disdain upon the children of Abraham because they have fallen on these evil days of traditional barrenness. Our forefathers gave themselves up to the persistent and passionate search for God, and they found him as no other whole race of men have ever known him since the times of Adam, who knew much of this as he was himself a Son of God. My Father has not failed to mark the long and untiring struggle of Israel, ever since the days of Moses, to find God and to know God. For weary generations the Jews have not ceased to toil, sweat, groan, travail, and endure the sufferings and experience the sorrows of a misunderstood and despised people, all in order that they might come a little nearer the discovery of the truth about God. And, notwithstanding all the failures and falterings of Israel, our fathers progressively, from Moses to the times of Amos and Hosea, did reveal increasingly to the whole world an ever clearer and more truthful picture of the eternal God. And so was the way prepared for the still greater revelation of the Father which you have been called to share.

155:6.11 Never forget there is only one adventure which is more satisfying and thrilling than the attempt to discover the will of the living God, and that is the supreme experience of honestly trying to do that divine will. And fail not to remember that the will of God can be done in any earthly occupation. Some callings are not holy and others secular. All things are sacred in the lives of those who are spirit led; that is, subordinated to truth, ennobled by love, dominated by mercy, and restrained by fairness -- justice. The spirit which my Father and I shall send into the world is not only the Spirit of Truth but also the spirit of idealistic beauty.

155:6.12 You must cease to seek for the word of God only on the pages of the olden records of theologic authority. Those who are born of the spirit of God shall henceforth discern the word of God regardless of whence it appears to take origin. Divine truth must not be discounted because the channel of its bestowal is apparently human. Many of your brethren have minds which accept the theory of God while they spiritually fail to realize the presence of God. And that is just the reason why I have so often taught you that the kingdom of heaven can best be realized by acquiring the spiritual attitude of a sincere child. It is not the mental immaturity of the child that I commend to you but rather the spiritual simplicity of such an easy-believing and fully-trusting little one. It is not so important that you should know about the fact of God as that you should increasingly grow in the ability to feel the presence of God.

155:6.13 When you once begin to find God in your soul, presently you will begin to discover him in other men's souls and eventually in all the creatures and creations of a mighty universe. But what chance does the Father have to appear as a God of supreme loyalties and divine ideals in the souls of men who give little or no time to the thoughtful contemplation of such eternal realities? While the mind is not the seat of the spiritual nature, it is indeed the gateway thereto.

155:6.14 But do not make the mistake of trying to prove to other men that you have found God; you cannot consciously produce such valid proof, albeit there are two positive and powerful demonstrations of the fact that you are God-knowing, and they are:


155:6.15 1. The fruits of the spirit of God showing forth in your daily routine life.


155:6.16 2. The fact that your entire life plan furnishes positive proof that you have unreservedly risked everything you are and have on the adventure of survival after death in the pursuit of the hope of finding the God of eternity, whose presence you have foretasted in time.


155:6.17 Now, mistake not, my Father will ever respond to the faintest flicker of faith. He takes note of the physical and superstitious emotions of the primitive man. And with those honest but fearful souls whose faith is so weak that it amounts to little more than an intellectual conformity to a passive attitude of assent to Êreligions of authority, the Father is ever alert to honor and foster even all such feeble attempts to reach out for him. But you who have been called out of darkness into the light are expected to believe with a whole heart; your faith shall dominate the combined attitudes of body, mind, and spirit.

155:6.18 You are my apostles, and to you religion shall not become a theologic shelter to which you may flee in fear of facing the rugged realities of spiritual progress and idealistic adventure; but rather shall your religion become the fact of real experience which testifies that God has found you, idealized, ennobled, and spiritualized you, and that you have enlisted in the eternal adventure of finding the God who has thus found and sonshipped you.


155:6.19 And when Jesus had finished speaking, he beckoned to Andrew and, pointing to the west toward Phoenicia, said: "Let us be on our way."

http://urantiabook.org/newbook/papers/p155.htm


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[This message has been edited by Absonite (edited 12-04-2004).]

 

[Aphrodite]

bluducky

Member
Member # 1880

Member Rated:
   posted 12-05-2004 12:28 AM                       
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Good God! stop with the personal bias and bickering, people!
(an appropriate phrase, given the topic at hand )

I am here by the request of Dawn.

I think answering Dawn's first questions would be a good idea. (and perhaps, just maybe, it will open some room for people to take some things I have said in other threads more seriously )

here we go:




quote:
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(1) If the Universe was truly without void, how did God even come into existence in the first place? What was God's origin?



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The link i gave in this thread first page (http://www.answersingenesis.org/docs/197.asp ) attempts to answer this question, with an obscure line of reasoning.

But, the truth is, noone knows where 'God'(whatever God is) came from.




quote:
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(2) What manner of being is God, energy, substance, or both? Can he or she live and die like any other being?

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According to the bible, God is spirit, and has never assumed flesh. According to Classical mythology, (which has NO ultimate being, and NO such creator God.. it simply shifts the focus from the self created being of the bible to another form (Gaia).(an idea which was 'borrowed' from older sources.. we may touch on this later) God is able to die, and be overthrown, God, to them, was the equal of man -- just with super powers.


quote:
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(3) If God is perfect, as has been said, how can God create something so obviously flawed and imperfect as the earth, and all the people upon it?

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Perhaps the Greeks were right, and God is NOT perfect?
There is no answer for those who seek to substantiate the theory that God is Perfect. There is no defence, as logic dictates clearly, that perfection begets perfection, and what is perfect, CANNOT be made UNperfect.


quote:
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(4) Why even allow evil to exist if you know in advance it will lead to mankind's undoing, the corruption of all God's children?

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It is only the biblical God that is said to be all powerful and all knowing. No other people dared to call their God perfect, lest they were wrong.

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(5) The presence of God makes itself known all throughout the Old Testament of the Bible, all the way up until the crucifixtion of Christ. Where has God been throughout all the last two thousand years, throughout all the famines, the plagues, the wars waged upon a global scale? Has something happened to God, or does God simply not care anymore..?

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Whilst it is true that after the grand story ended, God became quiet, there are still many 'miracles' that seem to happen now and again. Whether these are a product of our OWN desiring, or devine intervention remains to be seen.



quote:
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(6) Just how and when did God even come into existence?


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See answer to # 1.

In summary:

1)I DO believe God exists

2)I do NOT know who or what He/She/It is. (nor does anyone else, for that matter, and to assume one DOES know, instantly creates bias within the individual, as it affects their THINKING -- you cannot reason logically, if you bear the burden of upholding an ideal.)

3) I do NOT believe the Christian God (Jesus) is God, but I DO believe he existed. Not as god, but as a Rabbi. Historically, Jesus was a Rabbi, and this can be shown.

4) I do not believe in fanciful stories of God's ultimate perfection, as were HE perfect, WE (HIS creations) would also be perfect. Perfection leaves absolutely NO room for error, and this, we all know.

5) I Believe that the bible was written in allegory, that is, stories that had a DEEPER (secret) meaning.

6) I believe that the bible has historical merit, as it IS just that- a piece of history. When the bible talks of places that we today do not know, chances are, following the vlues in the bible, that you can FIND that place, as has been shown many times.

7) The bible has many apparent contradictions within it's text, (see my post dated '03-25-2004' here for details: http://forums.atlantisrising.com/ubb/Forum10/HTML/001139-2.html) but this is okay, as if the bible's own interpretation of God is wrong (ie Perfect), then the book 'written by God' is ALSO afforded a measure of innacuracy.
(PS: any Chrisatians wishing to overthrow my arguements are welcome to do so, but MAKE A NEW THREAD!)

I KNOW for a fact, that what we term as 'God', can NOT be found in religion. Were that possible, the world's religions would be ORGANIZED, and be exactly the same, and apply to ALL. (the OT was solely for JEWS, was it not? and rarely, were 'strangers' allowed to be equals (both to the Jews, AND in the Eyes of God))

Also, were god in religion, everybody in a religion would KNOW God, but, sadly, they spend their whole lives SEARCHING for God, instead of WALKING with God.

etc etc etc *insert any logic you like*

9) I do not hold any claim that the 'New Age' movement holds the answers, either, nor any other mystical organization.

As far as religion goes, it is as Friedrich Nietzsche said, "God is dead".

....................................................................

You are all welcome to comment on this very 'god hating' post. but, all I have done is told the TRUTH.

(Just remember that I DO believe in God, but solely for the fact that this thought is the BEST we've got, as to our origins. (or would you prefer a 'big bang' of unknown origin? I prefer the God of no origin to the puddle of crap with no origin. )

Ducky out!


 

[Aphrodite]

Dawn Moline

Member
Member # 2173

Member Rated:
   posted 12-05-2004 08:04 PM                       
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Absonite,
In my opinion God doesn't need to be perfect to continue to have our appreciation, and I don't know why all religions insist on believing in a perfect God. It is a mass of contradictions to even suggest that God is perfect, considering the evidence. Even if we redefine "perfect" as one meaning for humans, one meaning for God, that still doesn't quite wash for me. Bluducky was right when he stated that Christianity is the only religion that insists upon a perfect god. Ask yourself this, why even want a perfect god? What purpose does it serve? If we are adamant that God is perfect, than the corresponding belief is that he/she does not care for us, no matter how we try and rationalize it.

Calvin,

I am hurt by your opinion of me..! Not really...

Bluducky,

Thank you for responding when I asked you to also "weigh in" on this topic, too. I had an inkling that we shared some of the same beliefs once you told me that you were not a Christian, your defense of the ark threw me off quite a bit,though. I don't see your post as "God-hating," but rational. Certainly more rational than posts like Calvin and others who seem to believe every biblical stories, verbatim, without bothering to answer the scientific questions that come along with them.

God is spirit, he can't be perfect as none of us are perfect. I like to believe that God tried one last time to save the mess that has been made of this world, so I tend to believe in Jesus, but I don't think we've been told the whole story about him either. There are still miracles. Unfortunately, these days those miracles are few in far between, and the miracles that do exist are up for debate.

 

[Aphrodite]

HereForNow
Member
Member # 2132

Rate Member   posted 12-05-2004 08:34 PM                       
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Sorry all,I've been away on some business...\

Dawn this is still another great topic.
I am not sure why these subject of beleif are always debates in the making?

At times I look at the night sky and I try to embrace a feeling that I get from the sight of the stars and all creation.
I know that someday,the sky will no longer be a thing of wonder. No one lives for ever.
I can say this; As long as I live,I will hold strong in my heart a love for the world and life. No matter what is right and wrong in my steps,I will look to be a better man then I was yesterday.In this act,everything good and bad with truth must be endured. When it comes to the nature of God, everything that happens does so because of the reaction of every action........

With this in mind, being a good person might not be all it takes to get you to your version of Heaven, but it will make the days of your life easier and better as it rolls along.

------------------
The world must change!
This change starts with ourselves.....


 

[Aphrodite]

Jennie McGrath

Member
Member # 2197

Member Rated:
   posted 12-05-2004 08:35 PM                       
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Dawn's upset that no one wants to discuss the idea of a human god, heck, I'm disappointed that no one wants to discuss my "alien angle." A group of aliens in spaceships could just as easily be mistaken as God, or Gods, by the ancient people of the world, right? That's what I think, anyhoo...
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[Aphrodite]

Calvin Noble

Member
Member # 2238

Rate Member   posted 12-05-2004 10:16 PM                       
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Absonite,
I hardly mean to insult the integrity of the Urantia Book, but the Bible is, for me, the most important source for religious study, as it is for most Christians. I don't disallow other sources, I think that the material you have printed about the Urantia Book makes for a worthy study, and I also have read most of the Books of the Apochrypha, but I must give first consideration to the original source, the Bible.

Dawn, once again you seem to judge me without even the faintest idea of what I believe. Simply because I happen to believe in the ark enough to want to search for it, does not give you call to label me, either overtly or by implication, as a "religious zealot."

I was short in my answer to your beliefs earlier so I will expand on them now. Why would people even want to believe in a god such as you suggest? People, by definition of who we are, need to believe in something bigger than what they are, not smaller. You want to drag God down to our level, we should endeavor to raise ourselves up to His. Although others here are hesitant to say this to you, your own beliefs, incidentally, sound suspiciously a good deal more like PAGANISM, than anything even remotely linked to Christianity.


 

[Aphrodite]

Absonite

Member
Member # 1766

  posted 12-06-2004 06:06 AM                       
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Dawn,
I'm glad you posted what you did in regards to my post to you. Bluducky's stuff is more palatable for you, stick with that. You will have much more company. No harm done. I will still be your friend.
 

[Aphrodite]

Absonite

Member
Member # 1766

  posted 12-06-2004 06:13 AM                       
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Calvin,
whatever......

""Whatsoever your hand finds to do, do that with all your might."


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