the Origins of Love - Past, Present or Future

[Dawn Moline]

Calvin Noble

Member
Member # 2238

Rate Member   posted 04-09-2005 09:07 PM                       
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Bluducky,

I see that we are finally in agreement again on something. Michelle's indiscretions were at the root of her problem. Young people today do not realize the value of abstinence. It isn't simply for religious purposes for a person to remain abstinent, but psychological ones. Note the confusion it has created in Michelle, both physical and spiritual.

Absonite,

You would come to this conclusion, too, if your hatred of the Bible were not so readily obvious.


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And just for the record, I do not agree with you that pre-marital relations were the cause of her "apparent" problem.
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And just what other alternative would you suggest? I have read the passage from the Urantia book that you suggested and see mainly a history of marriage, not a code of how married couples are to lead their lives. It is clear that children read these forums, and that the words we print here set an example for all to follow. And so, I ask again, if abstinence was not the original course for this girl to follow, what alternative would you have her take?


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You have some major issues Calvin that require real psychiatric help.
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And yet, you are the one to place the Urantia Book, written by aliens, above the Bible.

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"An atheist believes in nothing, and so he shall find nothing."

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[Dawn Moline]

Sun Goddess

Member
Member # 2409

Member Rated:
   posted 04-09-2005 09:23 PM                       
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Sexual intercourse is not the problem here, often, it brings about life's finest moments.

Michelle,


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I meant it when I said I gave you my heart, but you never trusted me enough to give me yours all the way in return, and so I guess it ended just like you thought it would.
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This speaks volumes.

To me - and bear in mind I'm only going by what you've told us - this man probably did feel that you were too good to be true, felt unworthy of you the whole time, and drove you into the act of betraying him. A self-fulfilling prophecy. Probably never felt at ease the whole time. There are a lot of men out there who don't realize a good thing when they see it, either because they tend to look for something more or don't feel they have earned it when they come upon it. At the root of each one of us, men and women, is a basic insecurity. It's a shame that you couldn't communicate better, perhaps a wonder that it lasted two years. 

[Dawn Moline]

Michelle Sandberg

Member
Member # 2194

Member Rated:
   posted 04-09-2005 09:35 PM                       
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Bluducky,

I would love to hear any advice you have as well. I respect everyone's opinions here, but think you always raise some pretty good points. I read in another part of the forum that you said you were sad, well, take it from me, there's no feeling sadder than this. I'm usually
an upbeat person that's why this all feels so strange to me. The only one that I can blame is me, it wasn't he that did the cheating, he was
always very faithful, it was me. Like I said, the only one I can blame is myself. I feel so hollow and empty now, like my whole life seems to be unravelling at once. There's no end in sight for me either on this. I feel just as bad today as I did yesterday. With my friends, I can usually pretend to be in a good mood, but since I laid all this out there for you all to see, I can't put up a brave face.

Calvin,

I know you're very religious, but I don't think premarital sex is at the heart of this. I don't believe that people should sleep around a lot, but if you're in a long term relationship with someone (and ours was like two years), I don't see anything wrong with it. It's almost like we were married in the first place. After I got communion, I stopped going to church. I've only been with about three people. 

[Dawn Moline]

Michelle Sandberg

Member
Member # 2194

Member Rated:
   posted 04-09-2005 09:46 PM                       
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Ishtar,

Well, what can I say other than marriage, family, kids, we talked about all of those things when we were together. We were going to have two kids, a boy and a girl, we were going to get married once we graduated college, even though he never officially proposed. I can't take any comfort in any of this and I don't see my life ever getting any better at this moment. We may have been different types of people, but I
believe that opposites attract. One tends to complete the other, you know? I think you sort of need someone who is different than you, who has other experiences, who you might even argue with sometimes in order to reach the best part of you. There may be other guys but there will never be another Curt, he was the first person I ever really fell in love with, the longest relationship I ever had, and each day I feel more lost without him. They say you never know what you had until it's gone. Boy, is that the truth. I remember times when he used to kiss me and it just felt like the end of the world, and now he won't return my phone calls. I once told him that I would never leave him, then, in a flash, all at once, I just confirmed all his worst fears. I hurt a good man that never hurt me and who always put my own happiness before his own. And now, I have nothing to show for it other than lost dreams, with the realization that I was the one responsible for losing them.

Rockessence,

I like your words, but guilt lasts so much longer than three minutes. And I can't put into practice what you speak of because in theory, it's a nice idea, in real life, when you've lost the one you love and you were the one who was responsible, well all you end up doing is feeling hurt. 

[Dawn Moline]

Trevor Proffitt

Member
Member # 2175

Member Rated:
   posted 04-09-2005 10:01 PM                       
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Well, I've been reading this whole story, and, of course it's pretty sad, but doesn't anyone think that Michelle herself bears some responsibity for this? We all would like to support her, because she's our friend, but she does also seem to be the one that is most responsible. I've been on the receiving end on these types of things, I think that a lot of men have, and it's just as bad for the guy, actually, it's even worse. 

[Dawn Moline]

rockessence

Member
Member # 1839

Member Rated:
   posted 04-09-2005 11:56 PM                       
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Michelle,

What you are describing is grief, not guilt. Grief for loss of much more than the man...for loss of the marriage, the children, the life...the image of yourself as the wife and mother.

In Rock-Medicine the treatment for pangs of grief is holding rose-quartz.

Amazingly, this really works to bring comfort...while you let some time pass and have a chance to absorb your new self. No hurry....If you ask for it, you can make whole new you!

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[Dawn Moline]

Ishtar

Member
Member # 736

  posted 04-10-2005 10:50 AM                       
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I am sorry Michelle, I hope you find happiness, a matter of fact I believe you will, time heals you know, but there will always be that question "What if", I have a LOT of "What If's"

but that is life, it throws you curve balls........nothing, I mean nothing, is carved in stone, just when ya think you have it all figured out ......life slaps ya in the face and says...........NO.

Trevor I am sorry I understand.

Everyone is hurting from something or someone, somewhere, on this planet.

How do you survive....?

one day at a time. I have had a LONG , HARD life, made more then my fair share of mistakes, been beat up pushed around, loved and lost, loved and won,........I am old and tired, YET, sometimes I feel HOPE, and the flowers are still beautiful and babies still make me smile, that's life and we learn from life and all we can do is pass it on.

This is one reason I hate giving advise, usually people don't really want it...........lol

Because WORDS just don't cut it when you are hurting..........

            

[ 04-10-2005, 10:55 AM: Message edited by: Ishtar ]
 

[Dawn Moline]

Ishtar

Member
Member # 736

  posted 04-10-2005 11:20 AM                       
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Ok Michelle, I will tell my story, it will make you sound like Mother Teresa.

Born into a family with an abusive mother.

Sexually molested at age four......

Repeatedly tried to commit suicide

Married pregnant at age 17,had two children by the time I was 18, to a wife and child beating husband, cheated on him and left him for someone who wouldn't beat us, I have been with him all these 37 years.

Was an alcoholic, for most my adult life used drugs, been drug and alcohol free for 18 years.

My oldest son and daughter are alcoholics.

Been homeless,lived without heat, water, or electricity, a car, food, or money, but managed to survive, with two babies.

Survived two life threatening illnesses.

Burried my parents, grandparentsand two sets of twins.

Most of my life has SUCKED.......Most of it was my fault.

AND IT AINT OVER YET BABY!!!!!!!!!!

and that's just the tip of the iceberg

[ 04-10-2005, 11:49 AM: Message edited by: Ishtar ]

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“Ad initio, alea iacta est.”
And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
it's Later Than You Think

[Dawn Moline]

Ishtar

Member
Member # 736

  posted 04-10-2005 11:21 AM                       
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OH I almost forgot all this and guess what i wanted to be when I grew up................................A missionary.........LMAO, guess god had other plans huh?

 

[Dawn Moline]

Ishtar

Member
Member # 736

  posted 04-10-2005 11:23 AM                       
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gee that just made me

cry...........

have a nice day.

[ 04-10-2005, 11:24 AM: Message edited by: Ishtar ]

 

[Dawn Moline]

johnee

Member
Member # 1580

  posted 04-10-2005 07:05 PM                       
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Ahh… don’t cry Lady Ishtar...... 

 
 

[Dawn Moline]

Aristotle

Member
Member # 2244

Member Rated:
   posted 04-10-2005 09:31 PM                       
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Well, I've been reading this whole story, and, of course it's pretty sad, but doesn't anyone think that Michelle herself bears some responsibity for this? We all would like to support her, because she's our friend, but she does also seem to be the one that is most responsible. I've been on the receiving end on these types of things, I think that a lot of men have, and it's just as bad for the guy, actually, it's even worse.
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Trevor, Michelle already has taken responsibility for it, but what else do you want her to do? If you would like her to get down on her hands and knees and apologize to the guy, I imagine something like that has already occurred and she's been turned down.

And even if it is worse for a man, it's probably better in the long run that he doesn't take her back, for both parties. Could you ever trust someone completely who cheated on you in the past? You would never look at her again in the same way, regardless of your feelings.

Ishtar, sorry about your past. We may not have the same stories, but many of us all have our own share of sad stories. Hang in there.

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"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it."
- Aristotle
 

[Dawn Moline]

Aristotle

Member
Member # 2244

Member Rated:
   posted 04-10-2005 09:32 PM                       
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After I got communion, I stopped going to church. I've only been with about three people.
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In girl talk, double that figure and you probably have the true number. Sorry, Michelle, I've usually found that to be true.

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"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it."
- Aristotle
 

[Dawn Moline]

Michelle Sandberg

Member
Member # 2194

Member Rated:
   posted 04-10-2005 09:42 PM                       
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Ishtar,

I'm so sorry for all the pain you experienced in your life. I'm sorry for the physical abuse you suffered, sorry for your physical illnesses, sorry that you were homeless and that you had to live out of your car, nobody should ever have to do that. I'm sorry that things got so bad for you that you thought about ending it all. What can I say? I wish I could take all the pain that everyone feels in the world in life on a day to day basis and just make it go away.

I feel like a jerk when I compare my own story next to yours. I come from a middle-class background, we never had a lot of money but we never struggled like other families. My dad died three years ago, but before he died, he made sure I would be able to go to college. I'll always love him for that. While he was alive, I always knew I was his princess. He died of a heart condition, very suddenly, and I'll take the sight of him dead in his hospital bed with me for the rest of my days. When I kissed him goodbye on the forehead, the touch was cold, almost like kissing a cement floor.

And that's where Curt kind of came in. He didn't look like my dad, he didn't act like him or talk like him, but in a very real sense, he became my dad all over again. Not only that, but he became brother, lover, best friend, confessor, soulmate. I can't tell you how close we were, we kept no secrets. My friends always used to ask me what I saw in him, but the thing was, I never knew why they didn't see the same things in him. Whenever I needed to hear a nice word, there was Curt, whenever I was crying about something stupid, there was Curt to make me feel better about. it. He was my protector and my guardian, he took care of me in ways that no other man ever has except my dad and I can't even put into words just what he meant in my life. I only know myself because of the great void I feel now he's gone. All the time we were together in the last two years, time I was busy waiting for a marriage proposal that I probably would have accepted in a second, and he was waiting for that one terrible event that would happen in our relationship that would bring it all crashing down to an end. "Girls like you never end up with someone like me," he used to tell me. And I told him that I would never leave him, and then went and gave him that excuse. And I'll never forgive myself for that, for causing so much pain to someone who only wanted the best for me.

I went out with some old friends last night and it's been so long since we actually hung out together, we don't even have anything in common anymore. I've spent so much of my time with Curt that I feel like I've become another person than the one that used to be their friend.

I can't go on like this. I was going to use this weekend to study, but have been so messed up that I can't even concentrate. I was a straight A student, but I have been worried about this so much that I couldn't even think straight. I have a test tomorrow that I know I'm going to bomb. And the worst thing is, even though Curt isn't calling me, the guy I cheated on him with is. He calls me all the time, wanting to see me again. I want nothing to do with him, at school, I'm too ashamed to even look into his eyes. He wants me, but the one I want is Curt, I know that now, and I think I'll take whatever role he'll give me so long as he lets me back into his life in some way. How can I get back the man that has meant so much to me, how can I not let this whole thing slide away? 

[Dawn Moline]

Michelle Sandberg

Member
Member # 2194

Member Rated:
   posted 04-10-2005 09:44 PM                       
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Rockessence,

I am describing grief, and grief and loss on such a horrible scale that I'm not sure that any therapy can help me with at the moment. Thanks for the advice, though, I might try it out later. Today, I had such little energy that I just sat around watching TV, even though it was a nice day out.