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Plato's Atlantis My Theory

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Qoais
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« Reply #90 on: April 24, 2007, 03:40:29 am »

http://atlansfound.gq.nu/

Check out this web site.  The guy says he's found Atlantis, as has the proof.  He's apparently making a video or something of all the places he's been and has found the underground tunnels and stuff.
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« Reply #91 on: April 24, 2007, 04:36:37 am »

Hi Qoais
           I checked that site ,  it seemed to be a frantic jumble of barely coherent ranting,,  lol , it hurt my eyes. but I wont just dismiss it, I am intrigued about the giants claim ,as for his evidence ,,we shall see.
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« Reply #92 on: April 24, 2007, 11:22:22 am »

Hi Mark
I thought it had too many "words" too, kind of get's one confused as to what is really going on.  I'm not sure what his point is Smiley  It will probably end up being an explanation of all the odds and sods he's found - not like a real city or anything.
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« Reply #93 on: April 24, 2007, 08:02:17 pm »

Hi Rock
My book arrived this morning and all I can say is OH MY GOD!!!!  We need this type of mind today!

I chuckled out loud when I came across this on page 146 - for those of you who don't know what we're talking about, the book is called Finding Atlantis by David King - telling about a genius from the 1600's Olof Rudbeck - which I'm sure a lot of you know about already.  But when I read this bit I thought of Georgeos Grin Grin Grin

"While he was on the subject, there was another matter that needed to be cleared up.  Plato spoke of Atlantis as an "island", but Rudbeck believed it was not quite so simple.  Going back to the original language of the philosopher, Rudbeck noted that Plato used the Greek word Nesos to describe Atlantis.  Scholoars almost invariably translated ths word as "island", though, he noted, this did not have to be the case.  Nesos could also mean "peninsula", and for support, he simply pointed to the Peloponnesus in southern Greece."

Poor old Georgeos, here he is , thinking he's the only one EVER to realize about the word Nesos, and here's Rudbeck doing it back in the 1600's!!!!!!!!  I love it.

I also love this part about the Pillars of Heracles.  Aaah Georgeos - eat your heart out:  Page 148

Meanwhile, other distinguishing features of Atlantis were starting to cause more problems.  For one, Plato was pretty clear that Atlantis was situated near the famous Pillars of Hercules, traditionally located at the Strait of Gibraltar, the narrow waterway separating southern Spain from northern Africa.  According to ancient myth, the hero Hercules had set them up as the "far-famed witnesses of the farthest limit of voyaging".  Given such a position, it is no surprise that many had looked for the lost world in the mid-Atlantic or the Americas.

But Rudbeck soon had a proposal of his own.  Forced back to the drawing board, he started repositioning his map of Atlantis.  Placing the capital at Old Uppsala, with the kingdom stretching northward to the Arctic Kimmernes, the home of the Cimmerians at the halls of Hades and down to the southrn tip of Skane, Rudbeck must have watched with amazement.  Right in front of his eyes, he saw the Pillars of Hercules.

The answer seemed so clear, so obvious, that he wondered why no one had proposed it before: the real pillars must have been the Oresund, the strategic waterway that separated the kingdoms of Denmark and Sweden, and one of the most perilous straits in Europe.  Dutch and English traders knew the spot well, and had long been forced to pay hefty tolls to the Crown that controlled this enviable gateway to the Baltic.  The narrow strip of sea was where, incidentally, Hamlet's castle was supposedly located, and where the lumbering Kronborg stands guard today.

Although he had no small confidence in his own mapmaking abilities, Rudbeck's proposal that the Pillars of Hercules lay in Scandinavia was radical to say the least.  Why should one make recourse to a Nordic location, in the face of such widespread, almost unanimous, opinion that the pillars were found at the conjunction of Spain and northern Africa?

I LOVE THIS MAN'S THINKING - very logical

pAGE 150

After all, if the pillars had been set up to honor the glory of Hercules and mark the so-called limits of human endeavor, then why place them in a location where ancient peoples "sailed past them every year"?  The far edge of the Mediterranean was certainly not the end of the world; ask the Phoenicians, ask the Carthaginians, ask anyone who presumably traded for the valuable tin found in Great Britain.  This traditional Gibraltar location hardly made sense in either geographical or psychological terms.  Sweden, on the other hand, offered another possibility.  Here rough, frigid, sometimes icy waters made sailing difficult if not impossilble at certain times of the year, a fact that made this Scandinavian option a more likely place for the "limits of the ancient world" than Gibralter.
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« Reply #94 on: April 24, 2007, 11:23:33 pm »

Fantastic huh??  Have you checked out the Kajaani blog at www.bocksaga.de ....?  This is the Finnish angle to the puzzle.
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« Reply #95 on: April 24, 2007, 11:47:47 pm »

I am very happy to hear about this expedition.  Rudbec MAY have been right Grin  He worked so hard all his life on the Atlantis project and faced such adversity thru it all.  He was very scientific in his research and actual physical undertakings to see if his theory held promise.  I can't really see how people could think he was "mad".  I think he was well in control of his faculties and obviously there were people who were less gifted who were jealous. 

The story of the argonauts sailing north was discussed in AR but I didn't pay it too much attention.  This would seem more logical, given the details in the story, than it would be for them to sail the Med.  Also, Plato saying that the "power" came from outside the straits, certainly fits with a northern location.  If people were already sailing to England for tin, I'm sure they also sailed the northern coast of Spain and knew about Scandinavia. They did sail the coastlines mostly back then. The Argonauts may have taken a different route, but ended up there just the same.  Obviously they could do it by traveling the rivers.  If Schliemann read Rudbec, perhaps it gave him the idea to follow that trail and find Troy.

Rudbec may not have found Atlantis, but he certainly contributed a lot with his research.  He himself had trouble with the concentric rings, but it is possible that this was an exageration.  It could have been like he said, with all the waterways there are around Sweden. Paulo Riven thinks the concentric circles were made by the "founders" space ship when it touched down.  Mind you, I can't understand a third of what Riven says Grin

Lets think about the skeletons Rudbec found that were 8-10 feet tall.  If other stories are correct, then that means these people were already "downsizing" hee hee, from their original 20 foot height.  Therefore, I think, we have to look elsewhere for the original, originals. 
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« Reply #96 on: April 25, 2007, 12:20:06 am »

Poor old Georgeos, here he is , thinking he's the only one EVER to realize about the word Nesos, and here's Rudbeck doing it back in the 1600's!!!!!!!!  I love it.

Since Georgeos has been reading my posts in this thread, and has opened a new thread at AR to take me to task, I will hereby apologize for the above comment.  From his posts at AR it seems I got confused with what he had found thru his own research and what he credited to other writers.

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Author  Topic: To Qoais... About NÍsos = Peninsula and my Theory... 
Georgeos DŪaz-Montexano

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Rate Member   posted 04-24-2007 07:34 PM                       
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To Qoais... About NÍsos = Peninsula and my Theory...

Qoais:, I see that you use the other forum to make fun of of my theories, because in this forum of AR, you have not been able to maintain nor a single false idea, or absurd, about Atlantis. All its absurd ideas, and their full hypotheses of fantasies, and speculations, without no scientific foundation, all!, I could refute them to traverse, of the paleographical proofs; nevertheless, apparently, its pride was left a little hurt, and for that reason now you use the other Forum, where I am not for defending my honor and my prestige like investigator; a forum that in addition is a pathetic shade of this forum of AR, that is, a mere copy of this Forum of AR (that is original and the one of greater prestige of all Internet).

In its last message, you one makes fun of of my saying that I thought that I had been first in observing that NÍsos can be translated like peninsula, but that you now discover that another European medieval author, had already discovered before I to it.

You is mistaken! , I never said that I was first, nor the only one, on the contrary, to argue that NÍsos also can be translated as Peninsula always I mentioned that this peninsula meaning was in the oldest dictionaries, lexicons, and medieval codices, and in some cases I mentioned until the names of some Spanish authors, who long before that the author that you just have discovered, had defended the translation of NÍsos like peninsula. In this same Forum five years exist many articles published in the last, that demonstrate that what I say is certain.

Never! I said that I had been first in discovering that NÍsos can be translated like peninsula, but is certain that I have been the one that has written more on this point, and the one that proofs has contributed more to demonstrate this fact.

Do you do not feel no shame for to lie of that way in my against?

Do you do not feel no shame for to try to despise my work, and to try to reduce merits to my investigations, by means of lies, and calumnies like these?

[ 04-24-2007, 07:41 PM: Message edited by: Georgeos DŪaz-Montexano ]
 
Here is my reply:

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Qoais

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   posted 04-24-2007 11:13 PM                       
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Ok Georgeos - I apologize if I've misquoted you. My pride is not hurt, and I've said it before, that I'm not looking for scientific proof, I'm looking for logic. I wanted to discuss all kinds of theories with others who are interested in the same things. The "other" forum, offers that. You were invited to join that forum and chose not to, and you know the reasons why.

The whole point I was having some fun with, was that Nesos COULD also refer to Sweden just like Rudbec figured, and as you state for Iberia. You take everything as a personal insult and it is very exhausting. If you wanted to refute anything I said, you could have done so in the other forum. You have obviously joined it, but don't post in it. I'm sure you've also read the thread entitled "What do you think about Georgeos Diaz-Montexano theory". There are 1189 posts in that thread, all venting about your attitude, so don't lay the blame at MY door alone. I'm sure you've also noticed the poll in that thread asking people if they think your theory was based on serious scientific research. I was the only one who voted yes. So Georgeos - grow up. There is no need to put down the other forum. It's an excellent one. For someone who professes to be so professional, you certainly act in a childish manner. 
 

 

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« Reply #97 on: April 27, 2007, 07:13:42 pm »



Majeston,

That was a great article about Nefertiti, Akhenaton and the Mittani Royal Line.

Very enlightening, as usual.  Thank you.

Love and Light,
Bianca
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Qoais
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« Reply #98 on: April 27, 2007, 07:46:51 pm »

Hi Majeston
Where DO you come up with all this neat stuff?

Quote
The Mitanni were a people of Aryan origin who ruled a vast kingdom with a largely Hurrian population in West Asia in the second millennium BC, for a brief historical epoch, sometime after 1500 BC.

This doesn't exactly explain much does it?  They have their own kingdom, but it's mostly Hurrian population.   Sounds like they themselves, didn't have a large "tribe".  And yet, even tho they had these elongated heads, they were royalty.  Where did we get the idea of "royalty" in the first place?  Did the "gods" teach us this heirarchy stuff?  SOMETHING from way back, when indiginous peoples were still walking stooped over and some other "race" from somewhere was superior?  Our science isn't showing that tho is it? Unless we accept that the giants WERE the gods.   I can't figure out why thru inbreeding, the head would become enlongated.  Not that I know anything about that subject. Cheesy
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« Reply #99 on: May 01, 2007, 05:48:58 pm »

Some time ago I posted a picture of a "mosaic" that was found under a city in Rome which appears to be rather ancient.



Going to the site Danaus linked us to under "giants"

http://descegy.bibalex.org/Zoom.html?b=1&v=15&p=26&t=undefined


I paged thru and came to plate 35.  This reminded me very much of the mosaic, not in exactness but in the idea of it, and standing at a different viewpoint:


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« Reply #100 on: May 05, 2007, 05:39:13 pm »

Does this look more like the mosaic?   First Temple of Solomon.I know some people are hoping that mosaic is of Atlantis, what with the water all about, but it could be any city on the coast really.

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« Reply #101 on: May 05, 2007, 05:41:32 pm »

Or Second Temple of Herod:
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« Reply #102 on: May 12, 2007, 01:13:22 am »

I know a lot of you folks in this forum are much more learned than I am, and I know there's been discussions about the age of writing and the alphabet, and I'm sure you've all seen this before, but I just thought I'd stick it in here anyway. 

BACK
THE GLOZEL TABLETS
By R. Cedric Leonard

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


 
It is now clear that the history of alphabetic writing dates back much further than once believed. While scriptographers once attributed the invention of the alphabet to the Phoenicians of 1600 B.C. (ancient tradition named Cadmus, King of Tyre, as the inventor), other examples keep showing up which are much older than this. Since many are as yet undeciphered, no one can be absolutely certain which ones (if any) represent a form of writing.

 

However, the discovery of the Glozel tablets on a farm near Vichy, France created a controversy that raged on for years. Since the characters incised on these tablets strongly resemble the so-called Phoenician, they ostensibly represent an alphabetic form of writing.


I am about to relate a story--the details of which were painstakingly ferreted out by John Philip Cohane (1977), a graduate of Yale University--which may go down in the annuls of scholarly history as the most infamous blunder ever committed by men of learning.


The scene was Glozel, near Vichy in southwestern France, the year 1921. A large number of inscribed clay tablets (along with some clay bricks, pottery, and stone axes of Magdalenian extraction) had been unearthed in a field by a 16-year-old French lad by the name of Emile Fradin. Writing on the tablets was similar to Phoenician, and the pottery incised with pictures of mammoths and panthers, both of which had been extinct in Europe for some 12,000 years.


Glozel Tablet with incised "Phoenician" characters.


A vehement controversy ensued among authorities. Both the authenticity and the antiquity of the artifacts were vigorously debated. Finally in 1927 a worldwide body of Academicians was convened to settle the dispute. The blue chip panel concluded that the Glozel discoveries were outright forgeries, manufactured and planted by the young French lad to be "accidentally" discovered. The decision brought bitter disillusionment and anquish to young Fradin that can never be recompensed.


Two things of extreme importance should be mentioned here: 1) this decision took place before our modern dating methods--such as Carbon-14, fission-track, fluorine, thermoluminescence, and paleomagnetism--were developed; 2) the infamous Piltdown controversy was still raging and the anthropological community was in the throes of extreme embarrassment. The Piltdown fiasco wasn't settled until 1950 when fluorine testing exposed it as a hoax.


The academic argument against the validity of the find was the depiction of extinct animals alongside Phoenician-style writing. How could someone be using Phoenician characters before the Phoenicians had invented them? To accept such an anachronism would be folly, and could throw the whole neatly organized picture of the history of writing awry.


On the other hand, this question occurs to me: How could anyone carve a picture of an animal he has never seen? Moreover, the agreement between the Magdalenian artifacts and the depiction of Ice Age animals favor the antiquity of the find. It was not until forty-five years later that anything constructive was done to quell the controversy.


During the late 1960s Mr. Gavn Majdahl, a physicist on the staff of Denmark's Atomic Energy Commission Research Laboratory, had been doing research on the development and application of a dating method recently invented in Britain. Known today as thermoluminescence dating, it is especially suited for dating clay artifacts. The development was being financed by Denmark's Governmental Research Council and the Atomic Energy Center.


Having learned of this, Mr. Sture Eilow, a Swedish amateur archeologist, approached Majdahl with the idea of using the new technique to determine the date of the Glozel materials. Majdahl liked the suggestion, and agreed to do it.


The tests were conducted on the Glozel artifacts, and lo, all the "experts" had been wrong! The tests proved conclusively that the Glozel material was from the Magdalenian period. Incredulous experts took the material to Scotland to undergo another battery of tests, this time at Edinburgh's prestigious Natural Museum of Antiquities. This series of tests totally confirmed the first ones, putting the antiquity and authenticity of the Glozel artifacts beyond question! Emile Fradin had been vindicated after nearly fifty years of humiliation.


In an AP news release (28 August 1975) Majdahl commented: "It is fascinating, of course, to perhaps bring full rehabilitation for Emile Fradin, now 68. But Glozel just happened to provide the first dramatic demonstration of the potentials of the new technique" (Cohane, 1977). Thermoluminescence dating has been in use now for almost forty years in the field of archeology, and has proved to be an invaluable tool for dating clay materials.


Needless to say, not many people in the world are aware of the end product of this heated controversy, even though the conclusion was reported in the press and apologies made to the aged Mr. Fradin. In spite of these developments, scriptographers and other related authorities are continuing down the well-beaten path that the Sumerians were the inventors of writing, and that the Phoenicians were the inventors of the alphabet.


As you can see by perusing the other related articles on this web site, archeological excavations of Upper Paleolithic Cro-Magnon sites have produced numerous examples of sophisticated written forms representing the communication of ideas, which lends support to the conclusion that the Glozel tablets represent an "alphabetical" form of writing dating back to Atlantean times.


The possibility that the Atlanteans had a form of alphabetic writing is significant, even if it represents a syllabary (Gelb, 1974), simply because an accomplishment such as this is indicative of an advanced stage of civilization. In other articles on this web site I have shown evidence that the Cro-Magnon people were extremely artistic, practiced agriculture, domesticated animals, and used boats (implying navigational and sailing skills). They were also accomplished in mathematics, medicine and astronomy. In other words, the Cro-Magnon people were civilized before ever landing on the shores of Europe and North Africa.



Personally, I think the thing should be turned 90 degrees one way or the other, since it seems that they wrote in columns in ancient times, and if it's turned, the columns look more precise.
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« Reply #103 on: May 12, 2007, 01:21:19 am »

 
 
SUPPORTING EVIDENCE
By R. Cedric Leonard

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 
In spite of the tradition carried down to us that King Cadmus of Tyre invented the alphabet from whole cloth (Jackson, 1981), there are equally ancient and venerable traditions which point to a western, rather than an eastern, origin of our alphabet. For instance, Diodorus (Lib. Hist., Book V) records an important alternative:

"Men tell us . . . that the Phoenicians were not the first to make the discovery of letters; but that they did no more than change the form of the letters; whereupon the majority of mankind made use of the way of writing them as the Phoenicians devised."

In the same work Diodorus mentions that the Phoenicians had discovered a marvelous Atlantic island during their excursions outside Gibraltar. Atlantis was long gone, of course, but the survivors of that catastrophe still existed on the Canary Islands (and possibly others) and it is known that the Guanches inhabiting those islands possessed a system of characters which the Phoenicians could have commandeered.


Manetho (250 B.C.) also recorded that the Egyptians themselves derived the elements of their writing from an island in the west. Ancient Egyptian papyri also attribute the invention of writing to the god Thoth who ruled a "Western Domain". These same papyri declare that Thoth came from an Island of Flame (Atlantis was very volcanic, and perished in flames). The Turin Papyrus (1700 B.C.) lists Thoth as one of the ten kings who reigned during the "reign of the gods," more than 12,000 years ago.


Strabo, the Greek historian, records a tradition that Tartessos (on the coastal tip of Spain) had written records that go back 7,000 years before their time (500 B.C.), which is equivalent to saying that writing was being utilized on the Atlantic coast of Spain 9,500 years ago.


These are strong traditions suggesting the existence of an older, unnamed culture in the west that had long been familiar with the art of writing. We cannot help but remember the 12,000-year-old Azilian painted-rocks as well as the 20,000-year-old bone calendars (Marshack, 1972). Both of these are possibly a form of writing according to experts in anthropology and paleography.


Can a relationship be demonstrated between some of the better known western alphabetic (actually syllabic) writing systems and our Glozel prototype? The answer is, "Yes!"


First, there are the inscriptions on the Canary Islands (especially those on Hierro and Grand Canary): the script resembles Numidian and appears to be composed of some twenty four characters and a number of ideograms (Cline, 1953).


Although usually called an alphabet, the ancient Numidian (Berber) writing is actually a syllabary (Gelb, 1974). The Tuaregs of North Africa speak Tamachek, but their written language, T'ifinagh, is also syllabic and is closely related to the Basque language. T'ifinagh is being forgotten before it can be either properly classified or translated (Friedrich, 1957).


Even the Aymara Indians living along the shores of Lake Titicaca in South America were in possession of an ideographic form of writing when the Spanish conquistadors appeared on the scene (in spite of a ban on writing put in effect by the 63rd Inca ruler, Topu Gaui Pachacuti). Some of these signs correspond exactly to the characters found on the Canary Island inscriptions and among the Tuaregs and Berbers in North Africa (Wilkins, 1946).


Does all this sound familiar somehow? Basques, Berbers, Tuaregs, Guanches, and even the Aymaras of South America? We are talking about the same areas, the same people, the same language, and the same culture called "Atlantic" by learned scholars. In other words, our Cro-Magnon-Atlanteans.


There must have been a "western" prototype (which I believe we have in the Glozel Tablets), completely independent of the eastern writing system which evolved later in Sumar, for all these "Atlantic" systems to be so much alike.


Prof. W. Z. Ripley (1899) agrees: "A system of writing seems also to have been invented in western Europe as far back as the Stone Age." We will demonstrate the validity of this startling statement in the article entitled Ancient Alphabets Compared.


Since Cro-Magnoid skulls have also been unearthed in South America, it would be interesting if some competent linguist should inquire into possible linguistic links between the Basque (Euskara) and South American (e.g., Quechua and/or Aymara) languages. Any such study should, of necessity, be based largely on structural and syntactical correspondences rather than vocabulary similarities.
 
 
Bibliography

Champollion, Jean Francois, (translator) The Turin Papyrus, 1700 B.C.
Cline, Walter, "Berber Dialects and Berber Scripts," Southwestern Journal of Anthropology,
Vol. 9, 1953.
Diodorus Siculus, Library of History (Oldfather's translation), Book V, 8 B.C.
Friedrich, Johannes, "Extinct Languages," Philosophical Library Inc., New York, 1957.
Gelb, Isaac J., "A Study of Writing," The University of Chicago Press, Chicago & London, 1974.
Jackson, Donald, "The Story of Writing," Taplinger Publishing Co., New York, 1981.
Manetho, Egyptian Dynasties, circa. 250 B.C.
Marshack, Alexander, "The Roots of Civilization," McGraw-Hill Book Co., New York, 1972.
Ripley, W. Z., "The Races of Europe," D. Appleton & Co., New York, 1899.
Strabo of Amasya, Geography (63 B.C.-24 A.D), translated by H. L. Jones, Loeb edition, 1917-1932.
Wilkins, Harold T., "Mysteries of Ancient South America," Rider & Co., London, 1946.



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« Reply #104 on: May 12, 2007, 01:23:11 am »

I've read that article many times, Qoais, and I am just astonished that scholars don't realize that the Azilians had developed their own writing.  Here is the chart from your article:



If that isn't writing, I don't know what is.
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