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Plato's Atlantis My Theory


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Qoais
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« Reply #225 on: July 08, 2007, 12:39:07 pm »

Hi Rocky
I bought Finding Atlantis and found it an excellent book.  In my opinion, Olof Rudbeck was sheer genius.  A man before his time.  We need people like him today, to figure things out logically and go do the hands-on work.
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« Reply #226 on: July 08, 2007, 07:01:39 pm »

He had the advantage of having a lot of students to work on many projects for him.   Also he proved that Jason and the Argonaughts could have pulled/rolled a big boat across a stretch of land between rivers as told in the myth, by using one of his own mail-boats and enough young men to handily prove it possible.....

I am thinking that someone could do a great study on finding coherence in Rudbeck, Felice Vinci and the Bock saga.....
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ILLIGITIMI NON CARBORUNDUM

Thus ye may find in thy mental and spiritual self, ye can make thyself just as happy or just as miserable as ye like. How miserable do ye want to be?......For you GROW to heaven, you don't GO to heaven. It is within thine own conscience that ye grow there.

Edgar Cayce
julia
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« Reply #227 on: July 10, 2007, 06:35:07 pm »

Dear Qoais: I found this In the Internet about the Garden of Hesperides:
GARDEN OF THE HESPERIDES

Type: Terrestrial Garden

Environment: Earth-Like

Usual Means of Access: The Garden of the Hesperides was located "beyond the river Oceanus and somewhere in western (ancient) Libya near the mountains of Atlas" in what is now part of modern Morocco.

Dominant Life-Form: The Hesperides (Aegle, Erytheia, Haestia, Arethusa, Hespere, Hesperusa and Hespereia - daughters of Atlas), Ladon,

Features: The Garden of the Hesperides provides the golden apples of immortality from which the Olympian Gods derive their immortality.

First Appearance: Hercules III#1 (June, 2005)

History: (Greek/Roman myth) - The Garden of the Hesperides was the sacred garden of Hera from where the Olympian Gods derived their immortality. A wedding gift from Gaea to Hera, the garden was placed in an inaccessible spot on the fringes of the western edge in the command of the Olympian gods. They were tended for the the Hesperides, minor goddesses of earth and daughters of the Titan Atlas, who spent their time singing and dancing when their attention was not devoted to gardening. They were further protected by an immense serpent named Ladon, off-spring of Typhon and Echidna.

Despite their remote location, the Hesperides was visited by Perseus, son of Zeus and heir to the throne of Argos. He had divulged their location from the Graiae who had sent him to seek out the Hesperides for weapons enchanted enough to slay the Gorgon Medusa. As he returned to give back the weapons, Perseus tried to stay as their guest but was roused from his revelry by Atlas imprisoned nearby. Using the head of Medusa, Perseus transformed Atlas to stone.

(Greek/Roman Myth/Hercules III#1 (fb)) - For his Eleventh Labor, Perseus's great-grandson, Hercules, also a son of Zeus, was sent to pick apples from the garden for King Eurystheus of Mycenae. However, their location had never been revealed and Hercules had to wrestle the secret of their location from Nereus, the Old Man of the Sea.  He killed Ladon, the dragon that protected the apples, but he eventually needed Atlas to pick them for him. Offering to hold back the heavens while Atlas picked the apples, Hercules was trapped under the burden of the heavens as Atlas decided to leave him and take the apples to Mycenae himself. Using his wits, Hercules asked Atlas to hold back the heavens long enough to get a better grip on them, but as Atlas took back his place, Hercules snatched up the apples and departed in haste. Before departing entirely, he created a freshwater spring to refresh himself which in his absence also saved the Argonauts from thirst as they fought to return to Greece. In Mycenae, Eurystheus was forced to turned over the apples to the goddess Athena who returned them to the Hesperides.

Comments: Adapted by Frank Tieri, Mark Texeira and James Palmiotti

According to the continuity of the "Legendary Journeys," eating one of the golden apples made a normal human immortal although lacking in godly gifts until tasting ambrosia. This is how Callisto (the blonde female psychopath, not the Arcadia priestess from the myths) became the goddess of hate and yet, still not a worthy  match for Xena.

Some myths place the garden far to the north in Hyperborea, in what would be modern Scandinavia (where the Asgardian gods could have sneaked quite a few) or in Northern Italy, but considering the connection to Atlas, Libya has been the most faithful location.

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« Reply #228 on: July 10, 2007, 06:41:13 pm »

And This is from wikipedia:
Hesperides
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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Greek deities
series
Primordial deities
Titans and Olympians
Aquatic deities
Chthonic deities
Personified concepts

 
For the ancient Greek city of Hesperides see Benghazi.
In Greek mythology, the Hesperides (Greek: Ἑσπερίδες) are nymphs who tend a blissful garden in a far western corner of the world, located near the Atlas mountains in Libya, or on a distant blessed island at the edge of the encircling Oceanus, the world-ocean.[1]

According to the Sicilian Greek poet Stesichorus, in his poem the "Song of Geryon", and the Greek geographer Strabo, in his book Geographika (volume III), the Hesperides are in Tartessos, a location placed in the south of Iberia (Spain). The Euboean Greek poet Hesiod said that the ancient name of Cádiz was Erytheia, another name for the Hesperides. Others[citation needed] situate the gardens of Hesperides in the region located between Tangier (formerly Tinjis) and Larache in Morocco.

Contents [hide]
1 The evening
2 The Garden of the Hesperides
3 The Eleventh Labour of Heracles
4 Passing references
5 See also
6 Notes
7 External links
 


[edit] The evening
Ordinarily the Hesperides number three, like the other Greek triads (the Three Graces and the Moirae). "Since the Hesperides themselves are mere symbols of the gifts the apples embody, they cannot be actors in a human drama. Their abstract, interchangeable names are a symptom of their impersonality," Evelyn Harrison has observed;[2] nevertheless, among the names given to them, though never all at once, are Aegle ("dazzling light"), Arethusa, Erytheia (or Erytheis), Hesperia (alternatively Hespereia, Hespere, Hespera, Hesperusa, or Hesperethoosa). Lipara, Asterope and Chrysothemis are named in a Hesperide scene of the apotheosis of Heracles on a late fifth-century hydria by the Meidias Painter in London[3] They are sometimes called the Western Maidens, the Daughters of Evening, or Erythrai, the "Sunset Goddesses", designations all apparently tied to their imagined location in the distant west. Hesperis is appropriately the personification of the evening (as Eos is of the dawn) and the Evening Star is Hesperus. In addition to their tending of the garden, they were said to have taken great pleasure in singing.

They are sometimes portrayed as the evening daughters of Night (Nyx) and Darkness (Erebus), in accord with the way Eos in the farthermost east, in Colchis, is the daughter of the titan Hyperion. Or they are listed as the daughters of Atlas, or of Zeus and either Hesperius or Themis, or Phorcys and Ceto.

Erytheia ("the red one") is one of the Hesperides. The name was applied to the island close to the coast of southern Hispania, that was the site of the original Punic colony of Gades (modern Cadiz). Pliny's Natural History (4.36) records of the island of Gades: "On the side which looks towards Spain, at about 100 paces distance, is another long island, three miles wide, on which the original city of Gades stood. By Ephorus and Philistides it is called Erythia, by Timæus and Silenus Aphrodisias, and by the natives the Isle of Juno." The island was the seat of Geryon, who was overcome by Heracles.


[edit] The Garden of the Hesperides
 
The Garden of the Hesperides by Frederick, Lord Leighton, 1892The Garden of the Hesperides is Hera's orchard in the west, where either a single tree or a grove of immortality-giving golden apples grew. The apples were planted from the fruited branches that Gaia gave to her as a wedding gift when Hera accepted Zeus. The Hesperides were given the task of tending to the grove, but occasionally plucked from it themselves. Not trusting them, Hera also placed in the garden a never-sleeping, hundred-headed, dragon, named Ladon, as an additional safeguard.


[edit] The Eleventh Labour of Heracles
In order to make twelve out of the ten labours of Heracles, it was suggested that Eurystheus discounted those where Heracles was aided or paid, and so two additional labours were given. The first of these was to steal the apples from the garden of the Hersperides. Heracles first caught Nereus, the shape-shifting sea god, to learn where the Garden of the Hesperides was located.[4]

In some variations, Heracles, either at the start or at the end of his task, meets Antaeus, who was invincible as long as he touched his mother, Gaia, the earth. Antaeus was killed by suspending him in a tree.

Occasionally, versions tell that Heracles stopped in Egypt, where King Busiris decided to make him the yearly sacrifice, but Heracles burst out of his chains.

Finally making his way to the Garden of the Hesperides, Heracles tricked Atlas into retrieving some of the golden apples for him, by offering to hold up the heavens for a little while (Atlas was able to take them as, in this version, he was the father or otherwise related to the Hesperides). Upon his return, Atlas decided that he did not want to take the heavens back, and instead offered to deliver the apples himself, but Heracles tricked him again by agreeing to take his place on condition that Atlas relieve him temporarily so that Heracles could make his cloak more comfortable. Atlas agreed, but Heracles reneged and walked away. According to an alternative version, Heracles slew Ladon instead.

Heracles was the only person to steal the apples, other than Perseus, although Athena later returned the apples to their rightful place in the garden. They are considered by some to be the same "apples of joy" that tempted Atalanta, as opposed to the "apple of discord" used by Eris to start a beauty contest on Olympus.

On Attic pottery, especially from the late fifth century, Heracles is depicted sitting in bliss in the Gardens of the Hesperides, attended by the maidens. Later, William Shakespeare wrote "For valour, is not Love a Hercules. Still climbing trees in the Hesperides?" (Love's Labours Lost, IV.III).


[edit] Passing references
In his book The Greatest Salesman in the World, Mandino refers to the Garden of Hesperides in the The Scroll Marked I. It reads "Failure no longer will be my payment for struggle. Just as nature made no provision for my body to tolerate pain neither has it made any provision for my life to suffer failure. Failure, like pain is alien to my life. In the past I accepted it as I accepted pain. Now I reject it and I am prepared for wisdom and principles which will guide me out of the shadows into the sunlight of wealth, position, and happiness far beyond my most extravagant dreams until even the golden apples in the Garden of Hesperides will seem no more than my just reward."

In the fantasy series the Underland Chronicles by Suzanne Collins, there is a place known as the Garden of Hesperides. It is destroyed by Hamnet before the book begins.


[
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Qoais
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« Reply #229 on: July 10, 2007, 07:50:36 pm »

Hi Julia
I also have thought that the Gardens of the Hesperides were in the west, what would now be Morocco, or an island off that coast.  This Garden was supposedly near where the Atlanteans lived as well.  I believe Atlantis was a large country, but where the main city was built, was on a man-made island.  That island would only have been as big as the description Plato gave of it, and if it sunk, that doesn't mean the whole land of Atlantis sunk also.  Plato says the sinking caused a shoal of mud, and I've re-read that passage, and it seems that he's only talking about this shoal of mud blocking the ocean for the locals in the Atlantis area, not everyone that was trying to access the Atlantic from the Med.  If the Hesperides were in Tartessos, then for sure, Spain would have been part of Atlantis. 

If Spain WAS a part of Atlantis, it seems strange that they themselves don't have anything in their verbal or written history talking about it.  You'd think the Spanish would have travelled to Egypt themselves, and talked to the priests to find out what was going on in the world, as the priests seem to be the local telegraph office!!! Maybe Atlantis WAS Tartessos just like Docyabut has been saying, and Plato just called it Atlantis because it was on the coast of the ocean.  By using the word Atlantis, he could have just been indicating the whole area and the decendants of Atlas.  Like an "expression" so his listeners would understand that these were a coastal people or something.

NOTE:  Today is now Jan. 24, 2010.  I am adding this piece of information to this post as I find it most ironic!!

Lost city of Atlantis 'could be buried in southern Spain'
Archaeologists have begun the search for an ancient civilization in southern Spain that some believe could help pinpoint the legendary lost city of Atlantis.

By Fiona Govan in Madrid
Published: 6:00AM GMT 19 Jan 2010
A team of researchers from Spain's Higher Council for Scientific Study (CSIC) are examining a marshy area of Andalusian parkland to find evidence of a 3,000-year-old settlement.
They believe that Tartessos, a wealthy civilization in southern Iberia that predates the Phoenicians, may have had its capital in the heart of what is now the Donana national park.

Link to complete article:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/spain/7019522/Lost-city-of-Atlantis-could-be-buried-in-southern-Spain.html
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An open-minded view of the past allows for an unprejudiced glimpse into the future.

Logic rules.

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julia
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« Reply #230 on: July 10, 2007, 10:47:03 pm »

Dear Qoais:
I really dont think Atlantis is in Spain..My guts tells me different.ButSince there is no real scientific research we have to accept may be georges theory..I think it is nearby though in Morocco or the Richat structure.Anyway, unforunately we cant prove it otherwise.
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Qoais
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« Reply #231 on: July 11, 2007, 02:09:28 am »

Well Julia, it isn't just Georgeos' theory.  There's tons of people who think it was an island west of Gibralter, with Spain being a part of it.  Anybody who just reads Plato thru once, puts the book down, and thinks, "oh, Atlantis was in the Atlantic ocean".  BUT, if one studies every word of Plato, then one starts to get confused again.  Like I did.  Then there's the confusion between Atlantis the country, and Atlantis the City. 

Plato says Atlantis went beneath the waves.  He didn't specify that it was just the city, but it may have been.  It was Edgar Cayce who told about Atlantis breaking up three times before it sunk.  It was also Edgar Cayce who said Atlantis would be found off the coast of Bimini.  It was also Cayce who said that the Atlanteans went to Egypt, and he did mention also, that the first "perfect" human was born in Egypt, meaning to me, that someone WAS messing with the DNA.  BUT, this was really really a long way back, and not just 11,500 years ago.  Atlantis may have lasted for thousands and thousands of years before it finally broke up. We really have no idea of the time line for Atlantis.

They say that so far, there is no proof in the Atlantic Ocean to show that an island existed there.  But I say, how do they expect to find it when the earth tilted on it's axis, and everything that was up, is down, and vice versa?  Then there's been volcanos, tectonic plate shifting, major floods, etc. etc.  If Atlantis did stretch from Spain to Cuba, then I think it more likely that something that is still recognizable will be found near Bimini, as I don't think there was as much tectonic activity there as in the Med. and in the Atlantic off the coast of Spain.
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« Reply #232 on: July 11, 2007, 04:51:34 pm »

Dear Qoais:
I cannot find the city that Georgeos said.the city JAEN..Where is this city?near Huelva??Or near sevilla?/
I looked everywhere I saw some ring like structures??Are they jaen(In the shore) near huelva?? Or near the mouth fo the Guadalqiuvir river??
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« Reply #233 on: July 12, 2007, 01:08:44 am »

East of Cordoba - North of Granada

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« Reply #234 on: July 12, 2007, 05:19:17 am »

Qoais ,you might want to move that peg of Gerogous`s site, thats not where he placed it.I have to say this for Gerogous, he`s the only one  today that has found artifacts to support his theroy. He posted them long time ago and all the photos were really something to see,stone walls, vases ,and what looked like a  large sun disk, copper pins ect.ect. Samast found nothing at Cyprus, Gerg  maybe a stone achor at Bimini.


http://picasaweb.google.es/GeorgeosDiaz/GeorgeosDiazMontexanosSAlbum/photo#5042230382303635778



 








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« Reply #235 on: July 12, 2007, 05:36:42 am »

Also in order to understand Cayce `s Atlantis, one has to understand Cayce.
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« Reply #236 on: July 12, 2007, 10:52:47 am »

Hi Docyabut
The pin moves with the zooming in and out.  In order to show Julia where Jaen was, I had to go to a higher altitude. 

This is from G's website.

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« Reply #237 on: July 12, 2007, 11:04:31 am »

I just noticed in Georges map, this large circle at the end of the Atlas mountains where the Amazons supposedly originated.  Does anyone know where I can go on the web and find relief maps like this?  I'd love to look at a few other places in this mode.

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« Reply #238 on: July 22, 2007, 11:45:18 pm »

Here is something I didn't know.  I didn't realize that in ancient times, numbers were important, especially when it came to the "meaning" and therefore "power" of names.  Also, I didn't realize just how important almost every word of Plato's writings were regarding whether or not they were translated correctly. 

In my copy by Lee, when Plato is about to tell the story but warns the audience ahead of time that they may be surprised at hearing foreigners names being referred to by Greek names.  Here is a bit of the line .....he learned that the Egyptians had translated the originals into their own language, he went through the reverse process, and as he learned the meaning of name wrote it down in Greek.

However, what I did NOT know, was that numerology was most important in the meaning of the name, and the numbers for the names had to be equal to the total of the letters in Greek as well as Egyptian.

In this work, the author says - regarding that line I just quoted -  would read instead - ...he went through the reverse process, and as he learned the "power" of the name, wrote it down in Greek.

Quote
PLATO'S ATLANTIS WORD PUZZLE 

No edition of Plato, with which I am acquainted, calls attention to the fact that his story of Atlantis contains a very simple but interesting and important cipher.

It is difficult to see how it has escaped notice, for Plato specifically states that the names are given in cipher and specifically states the nature of the, cipher, one well-known to adepts of his time, and specifically gives, and states that he gives, along with one of the names, its cipher solution, so affording a means of checking the method. 

To quote Critias, sections VII and VIII: 

"Yet before we narrate this, we must briefly warn you not to be surprised at hearing Hellenic names given to barbarians; and the cause of this you shall now hear. Solon, intending to make use of this story in his poetry, made an investigation into the power of names, and found that the early Egyptians who committed these facts to writing transferred these names into their own language, and he again receiving the meaning of each name, introduced it into our language . . . and to the twin born after him who had received for his share the extreme parts of the nesos (land) towards the Pillars of Hercules, as far as the region which now in that country is called Gadeirica, he gave the titular name which we Greeks call Eumelus, but which the people of that country call Gadeirus."

The "power of names" cipher was a standard international cipher used by scholars of that and earlier and later ages. By it a name, to be correctly translated, must not only mean the same thing as the original, but the letters of each, read as numbers, must, when added, give the same sum. To take an example from Berossus (Eusebi Chronicorum, Liber 'Prior, Schoene, pp. 14-18). "The ruler of them all was a woman whose name was Omorka, which in Chaldean is interpreted Thalatth, and in Greek Thalassa; but by numerical equivalence it is Selene."

The international number-letter system, omitting now discussion of modified values given to some of the "hundreds" letters, was: 


 1
 2
 3
 4
 5
 6
 7
 8
 9 
 
Units
 a
 b
 g
 d
 e
 F
 z
 e
 th 
 
Tens
 i
 k
 1
 m
 n
 ks
 o
 p
 kh 
 
Hundreds
 r
 s
 t
 u
 ph
 ch
 ps
 o
 sh
 


(F is the digamma which may be taken as v or w; e is eta and o is omega)

Taking the example given by Berossus, we have: 

Omorka is numerically 70,40,70,100,20,1, the sum of which is 301: 

Selene is numerically 200,5,30,8,50,8, the sum of which is 301. 

And so Selene is considered to be the perfect translation of Omorka. 

Taking next the example given by Plato, of one of the Atlantis -names, i.e. that Eumeles is the Greek translation of the Egyptian Gadeirus, we must remember that Solon, who tells the story, lived several hundred years before Plato and spoke an older form of Greek, and that even if Plato did give the spelling as handed down to him, it was probably corrected as old-fashioned by his editors. So we must be prepared to change the scientific spelling of the Greek grammarians back to the old spelling of Solon's time. According to the rule of the cipher, Gadeirus and Eumeles must mean the same thing. Since Gadeirus is Egyptian, it can only be connected with the root Gad, meaning "happy". So Eumeles must mean "happy" and, on looking in Liddell and Scott's Greek Dictionary, we find the word eumeles and that it was used by the poet Plato, who lived in the time of the philosopher Plato, in the sense of "agreeable". So the first condition is fulfilled. 

For the second, we have Plato's statement that the name was a titular one of the land of Gadeirica and, on looking in Liddell and Scott again, we find that the proper Greek for an inhabitant of Gadeirica is Gadeireus.

Gadeireus is then 3,1,4,5,10,100,5,400,200 and the sum is 728. 

Eumeles is 5,400,40,5,30,8,200 and its sum is 688. 

They do not agree. But, looking in our Greek dictionary, we find other words, such as eummelies, from eu and melia, also emmeles, etc., showing that the M was commonly doubled, and other facts indicating that Eumeles was originally spelled with two Ms and that, for scansion and to avoid confusion, one M was dropped later by the grammarians. So we have: 

Eummeles which is 5,400,40,40,5,30,8,200 and totals 728, the same as Gadeireus, and the second condition is fulfilled; as of course it must be, since Plato gave it as an example.

We can now proceed somewhat confidently to solve the rest of the cipher. Take the name of the mother of Gadeireus, i.e. Klito. Its meaning is "the end", (Greek Klitos). What name of an Egyptian woman means "end"? Plutarch, in his "Iris and Osiris", section 38, says: "for which reason they call Nephthys the `end' and say that she is the consort of Typhon." 

We know that the true spelling is Naphthys (see Herodotus, 7.193) and that it is the word from which naphtha is derived. So we have: 

Klito is numerically 20,30,10,300,800 and sums to 1160. 

Naphthys is numerically 50,1,500,9,400,200 and sums to 1160. 

So this is the correct translation of the cipher.

Klito married Poseidon, or in old Greek, Poteidaon, whose Egyptian equivalent is Typhon. 

Poteidaon is 80,70,300,5,10,4,1,800,50 which sums to 1320. 

Typhon is 300,400,500,70,50 the sum of which is 1320

 and as Plutarch states, supra, Nephthys married Typhon. 

Atlas is Harmakhis (the Pillars) . 

Atlas is numerically 1,300,30,1,200 which sums to 532. 

Harmakhis is 90,1,100,40,1,90,10,200 which sums to 532. 

And now go on with the story. Solve the other names and you will be interested. Atlantis city was at the hot springs near Pjatigorsk, north of the Dariel Pass. The mud flats Plato speaks of have now been solidified. You will find Gadira on the old maps to the southeast of Atlantis. 

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« Reply #239 on: July 23, 2007, 12:03:51 am »

That numerical value chart should have looked like this:

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Logic rules.

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