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Plato's Atlantis My Theory


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Atlas
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« Reply #2055 on: June 05, 2010, 06:08:23 am »

Actually, if the Minoans were the Atlanteans, all that would mean is that the story happened later than Plato says it happened. That would mean that the Mycenaens would have been the Greeks, and, as we know, they both had ships and could have easily been destroyed in the same calamity.
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Qoais
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« Reply #2056 on: June 05, 2010, 04:36:52 pm »

The Minoans weren't the Atlanteans.  There were no Atlanteans as Plato tells the story, (at least not that we've discovered yet!) but it's possible he used Thera as inspiration for the demise of his fabricated Atlantis.  As I pointed out before, he mentions the 9000 years ago, at least 3 times so I don't think we're in doubt as to the timeline he's placed the story. 
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« Reply #2057 on: June 06, 2010, 12:33:31 am »

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As I pointed out before, he mentions the 9000 years ago, at least 3 times so I don't think we're in doubt as to the timeline he's placed the story.

Actually, we're completely in doubt as to when he places the story, and that is the one issue that everyone pretty much agrees on.  Namely because:

1.  Neither the Greeks or the Egyptians were officially a civilization at that point so there was no way they could keep records.

2.  No writing system at all was even in place back then, for any civilization.

3.  There is no way that the story could have been passed down verbally as there was no official language for anyone either.

4.  There was no way that Plato could have possibly known, given all those points.

I prefer to think of it as a storyteller simply stating, "once, a long time ago," (which the 9000 years was used as, in other writings) and that is how we should regard the reference to 9000 years. 

Once we all accept this, it opens up myriad possibilities. And it somehow makes the whole Atlantis story more plausible as well.
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Atlas
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« Reply #2058 on: June 06, 2010, 01:06:27 am »

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The Minoans weren't the Atlanteans.

I can actually make a pretty good case that the Minoans were the Atlanteans and that the war Plato talks about was the well-known conflict between the Minoans and the Mycenaens (with Santorini, of course being the main capital).

Having said that, I would prefer for Atlantis to have been an Atlantic-based culture that we haven't discovered yet either in Morocco, the Azores, Canaries, Bimini, Cuba or South America.  All have points in their favor, and, of course, points against, too.
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Qoais
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« Reply #2059 on: June 06, 2010, 01:36:27 am »

Quote
As I pointed out before, he mentions the 9000 years ago, at least 3 times so I don't think we're in doubt as to the timeline he's placed the story.

Actually, we're completely in doubt as to when he places the story, and that is the one issue that everyone pretty much agrees on.  Namely because:

1.  Neither the Greeks or the Egyptians were officially a civilization at that point so there was no way they could keep records.

2.  No writing system at all was even in place back then, for any civilization.

3.  There is no way that the story could have been passed down verbally as there was no official language for anyone either.

4.  There was no way that Plato could have possibly known, given all those points.

I prefer to think of it as a storyteller simply stating, "once, a long time ago," (which the 9000 years was used as, in other writings) and that is how we should regard the reference to 9000 years. 

Once we all accept this, it opens up myriad possibilities. And it somehow makes the whole Atlantis story more plausible as well.

It is precisely for these points that prove Atlantis didn't exist and Plato made up the story.  Plato didn't know the history of Greece.  He didn't know the history of Egypt.  He didn't know when ships were invented.  He didn't know when the horse was tamed, he didn't know when chariots were invented, and he's just put it all together as he knew it, of his time.   It's been said before, that 9000 years just meant "a long time ago", well that's the whole point isn't it?  That's what the Egyptian priest was pointing out, that the Greeks were children when it came to their history, because they knew nothing of it.   It IS like "once upon a time" because that's how fairy tales start.  And the rest fits as well.  Once upon a long time ago, in a land far, far away.  Perfect.  Atlantis was supposedly out in the Atlantic Ocean, yet the eruption of Thera destroyed her.  How does that work? 

I've tried to make a case for many locations, but you don't have to go that far to find that Atlantis didn't exist.  There's no point in trying to make a case for any location, unless you have some facts that can be established first.

How can you make a pretty good case for the Minoans being the Atlanteans (and not just the inspiration for the story) when Plato says Atlantis was in the Atlantic Ocean?  You have to justify what he said, and it can't be done.  You can't change the time line to suit yourself, because  - and again I repeat myself - he said three times - 9000 years.  He could just as easily have said any other number.  He could have said 3000 years, or he could have said no number at all.  He could have said many thousands of years ago.  But he didn't. He said 9000.
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« Reply #2060 on: June 06, 2010, 04:18:09 am »

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It is precisely for these points that prove Atlantis didn't exist and Plato made up the story.

In your opinion, the story is made up. Unfortunately for you, the opinions of skeptics don't seem to count much in a forum about Atlantis, wherein most of us like to be proactive about the topic,   Cry


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Plato didn't know the history of Greece. 

He knew the history of the Greek people as well as the most learned of Greeks.  What do you think was the reason for reciting Tiaeus and Critias? To INFORM THE OTHERS.   Roll Eyes

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He didn't know the history of Egypt.

He went to Egypt and was told their history, which was written down in their temples.  Guess the fact that the Egyptians kept track of their history doesn't matter much to a skeptic, though. You are, of course, all about denigrating the veracity of the idea of Atlantis.

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I've tried to make a case for many locations, but you don't have to go that far to find that Atlantis didn't exist.

Sure, if you give up looking for it, as you, of course, have.

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There's no point in trying to make a case for any location, unless you have some facts that can be established first.

Well, guess all the rest of us embarking on this search should just stop looking for it unless we have a location that fits every little detail that Plato wrote about - on your say so!  I'll alert the media.  Roll Eyes

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You can't change the time line to suit yourself, because  - and again I repeat myself - he said three times - 9000 years.  He could just as easily have said any other number.  He could have said 3000 years, or he could have said no number at all.  He could have said many thousands of years ago.  But he didn't. He said 9000.

Of course, no amount of rationalizing will work with you, you're a skeptic!  Thank goodness not all skeptics are as close-minded as you. You do, in fact, give skeptics a bad name.  Huh
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Qoais
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« Reply #2061 on: June 06, 2010, 09:52:27 am »

Daedalus, what's your problem?  What's with the attitude? 

What's the name of this thread again?  Of course it's my opinion.  And I've posted WHY it's my opinion.  And I've posted, if you can prove me wrong, please do so.  I'm not a skeptic.  I'm a person who believed in Atlantis without having ever checked it out before or tried to verify the story.  When I did do the research, I find it doesn't work. 

Plato did not go to Egypt to learn the story.  Solon did - supposedly.  Plato didn't know any more about Greek history than anyone else, or he would have known when ships were built, or when chariots were invented and so forth.  That was my point.  He wrote the story of Atlantis, and included those things in the story,  because he DIDN'T know the history of any of it.  If he would have known those things,  he would have used a different time line so the details would fit the story.

The reason he recited the Timaeus and Critias, according to most scholars who have studied Plato, was to teach a lesson in philosophy.  Not as a history lesson but a lesson as to what happens to a City or State that thinks too highly of itself.  The Gods will destroy it.   
Quote
Well, guess all the rest of us embarking on this search should just stop looking for it unless we have a location that fits every little detail that Plato wrote about - on your say so!  I'll alert the media.

It has nothing to do with what I say.  It has to do with common sense, and proof.  It has to do with what the whole world will accept if and when any discoveries are made. 

It seems no amount of rationalizing will work with you. Smiley  You're entitled to your opinion but I don't appreciate the antagonistic attitude.  If you can prove me wrong, please do so.
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Qoais
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« Reply #2062 on: June 06, 2010, 10:55:08 am »

Just as an aside, regarding the timeline for Atlantis, Edgar Cayce, who many follow diligently, also gave a similar timeline for the demise of Atlantis:


Edgar Cayce’s chronology of Atlantis actually varies little from the Plato account. Both placed Atlantis in the Atlantic Ocean. Cayce cites 10,014 B.C. as the date of Atlantis’ final destruction. Like Plato, Cayce cited several earlier destructive floods. Cayce, however, gives the dates of these floods: 50,700 B.C. and 28,000 B.C. These floods broke Atlantis into islands causing massive destruction.
http://www.edgarcayce.org/_AncientMysteriesTemp/platocayce.html

From the work of Dr.'s Lora and Greg Little


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« Reply #2063 on: June 06, 2010, 03:20:10 pm »

Regarding the timelines as given by Plato AND Cayce, we see that Atlantis was destroyed around 10,000 BC.

So - in consideration of what their technology was supposed to have been BEFORE the destruction, eg:  ships that sail the ocean, we also have to consider how long it takes for the basis of such technology to develop.  How many years would it take to go from a hollowed out log, to a ship with sails, that could cross the ocean?  According to our scientists, it took thousands of years.  So we have to go even farther back in time, to allow for the skillful development of a number of technologies.  However, as I've said before, we also have to take into consideration, that farther back in time, we are looking at the earth being covered in ice, for the most part.  Not the whole earth was covered, but a great portion of it.  I do think this would be quite a hindrance to the development of the ocean going ship from a hollowed out log.  Also, people had to spend a lot of time just surviving in ice age conditions, so it's reasonable to assume that building a vessel that could cross the ocean was not a top priority.

We COULD revert to the theory that aliens had come here with advanced technology and Atlantis was the remnants of whatever survived.  DID they have crystals with super powers, and then lost the knowledge of how to use them?  What amazes me in the Edgar Cayce story, is that the flying baskets were covered in hides.  Surely that would make them very heavy.  If they had the technology to fly baskets in the air for transportation, wouldn't they have had the knowledge to weave the baskets out of something lighter?  Weaving seems to be one of the first "technologies" a lot of cultures developed, in order to create something to carry with. 
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« Reply #2064 on: June 07, 2010, 01:19:03 am »

I'm the one being negative???  Huh  You're the one who doesn't believe in Atlantis, a skeptic, and try and cram your nonbelief down the mouths of everyone you come across. In party terms, you are pretty much a downer.  Roll Eyes

Quote
What's the name of this thread again?  Of course it's my opinion.  And I've posted WHY it's my opinion.


You made a declarative statement, "Atlantis does not exist." You did say "In my opinion, Atlantis did not exist."  And the thing is, you can't possibly even know whether it did or not unless you could get yourself a time machine and go back and check for yourself.

Quote
And I've posted, if you can prove me wrong, please do so.

Why waste my time?  Your mind is made up. I leave you to wallow in your skepticism and cynicism.  Undecided
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« Reply #2065 on: June 07, 2010, 03:29:48 pm »

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There were no Atlanteans as Plato tells the story, (at least not that we've discovered yet!)

Did you just wake up from a nap and were still sleepy eyed Qoais?
So there were no Atlanteans or a city called Atlantis in Plato's Timaeus and Critias?
I fail to see your brainwashed conclusion.

Herodotus told you about the Atlantes and the Ataranteans, so how can you say that you haven't discovered Atlanteans? Funny that Atlantic cultures is a common scholarly term today, but Atlantean cultures are sidetracked? Meanwhile they both are named for the same ocean?

Minoans are an Atlantean Tribe, but the Santorini event is not the Atlantean war.
As I've posted, we know this because Solon could only remember upto Phoroneus ca.1800.bC and that the war was also the third before the 1529.bC flood of Deukalion.
Santorini was 1628.bC.

Skinwalker's post;
Quote
1.  Neither the Greeks or the Egyptians were officially a civilization at that point so there was no way they could keep records.
2.  No writing system at all was even in place back then, for any civilization.
3.  There is no way that the story could have been passed down verbally as there was no official language for anyone either.
4.  There was no way that Plato could have possibly known, given all those points.
I prefer to think of it as a storyteller simply stating, "once, a long time ago," (which the 9000 years was used as, in other writings) and that is how we should regard the reference to 9000 years. 

Sure, it took man 10 million years to develop a writing system or form of communication between each other?
Writing and Civilizations are far older than we are led to believe from the Phoenician lies taught in your schools.
How do you think the Basques preserved their language for 40,000 or so years?
What about the European vinca cultures writing ca.6000.bC or the Azilian, Aterian letters from 10,000.bC?
Stories pass down through all languages or forms of communication.
 
Plato simply preserved what Solon preserved from the best recorders in histories, being the Egyptians whose records were at least 8000 years old.
This Egyptian antiquity of 8000 years was also verified by Herodotus who physicaly counted 345 priestly statuettes passed on from generations.
The years are either literaly that long or one half. In any case, the years were computed according to generations.

You don't need to be a civilization to keep records.

And Qoais' brilliant reply to skinwalkers post was;
Quote
It is precisely for these points that prove Atlantis didn't exist and Plato made up the story.
Plato knew what Critias knew what Solon knew WHAT THE EGYPTIAN PRIEST TOLD THEM.

Qoais;
Quote
Plato did not go to Egypt to learn the story.  Solon did - supposedly.
.

See, that is part of your confusion of a pile of mumbo jumbo swirling around and why doubt becomes your best friend Qoais, and your worst enemy.

Herodotus told you that Solon visited Egypt aside of many other classical authors like Plutarch, etc. Are they all liars too?

The Royal City of Atlantis was constructed as the Critias says, prior to ships and voyages, which lends to the authenticity of it's antiquity prior to 4000.bC. Ships, not boats or watercrafts, but large ships for warfare or commerce fall into the range of 3000-4000.bC.

People need to take off the horseblinds and open up both halves of their brains so they can understand the 9000 years and the difference between the Timaeus and Critias which they will realize by reading Critias' closing comment of the Timaeus.

Maybe the one eyed illuminati pyramid has new meaning? See with one eye = dumbdown. Smiley

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Qoais
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« Reply #2066 on: June 08, 2010, 01:39:56 am »

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Riven - Did you just wake up from a nap and were still sleepy eyed Qoais?
So there were no Atlanteans or a city called Atlantis in Plato's Timaeus and Critias?
I fail to see your brainwashed conclusion.

Are you being deliberately obtuse? 

We have found no Atlanteans or Atlantis as Plato gives it.  We find that Herodotus speaks of a people called Atlantean that live at the base of the Atlas mountains.  Diodorus Siculus confirms this, and says they are neighbors of the Amazons.  The Amazons live in the Marsh Tritonis, which was located at the Eastern end of the Atlas mountains.  Therefore, the Atlanteans spoken of by Herodotus and Siculus, are not the imaginary Atlanteans fabricated by Plato, who supposedly live somewhere out in the Atlantic Ocean.

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Herodotus told you about the Atlantes and the Ataranteans, so how can you say that you haven't discovered Atlanteans? Funny that Atlantic cultures is a common scholarly term today, but Atlantean cultures are sidetracked? Meanwhile they both are named for the same ocean?

I don't know what you're on about.

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Minoans are an Atlantean Tribe,

Prove it. 


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See, that is part of your confusion of a pile of mumbo jumbo swirling around and why doubt becomes your best friend Qoais, and your worst enemy.

Herodotus told you that Solon visited Egypt aside of many other classical authors like Plutarch, etc. Are they all liars too?

I don't know what you're babbling about.  Daedalus said in his post that Plato went to Egypt - I corrected him and said it wasn't Plato who went to to Egypt and got the story, it was Solon. (supposedly)

Quote
The Royal City of Atlantis was constructed as the Critias says, prior to ships and voyages, which lends to the authenticity of it's antiquity prior to 4000.bC. Ships, not boats or watercrafts, but large ships for warfare or commerce fall into the range of 3000-4000.bC.

And yet three times, Plato says Atlantis sunk 9000 years before Solon. 

If the story were true, and there really was an Atlantis and she sunk in the times when there WERE ships, then there would be a record of her in lots of places, because supposedly she traded with all the other countries and so they all would know of Atlantis as well, and we would have cylinder seals and so forth, showing shipments that came from Atlantis, and pottery etc., just like we do for other ancient cultures.  But we don't. 






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« Reply #2067 on: June 09, 2010, 03:25:34 pm »

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Therefore, the Atlanteans spoken of by Herodotus and Siculus, are not the imaginary Atlanteans fabricated by Plato, who supposedly live somewhere out in the Atlantic Ocean.

Of course they are the same people! This is evidence that the Atlanteans were remembered upto and around Herodotus.
Can you find any Sumerians or Anu or Maxyans or Lotophagi cultures today like the Atlanteans?
No, because they all changed and evolved into other names like Berbers, Japanese, Iranians, Hindus, etc.
Do you hear Iraqi's or Iranians call themselves Babylonians?

Those ancient cultures all existed and still exist by different names. Do you expect archaeos to dig up an Atlantean with a birth certificate from Atlantis to convince you that Atlanteans existed?

In fact if Plato told you that the Atlanteans controlled Europe to Italy and Africa to Egypt (although we know the truth that they also controlled Greece and Egypt and the entire Mediterranean including Crete), then wouldn't all those people actualy be classified as Atlantean cultures going by different names today like Portuguese,Spanish,Italian,Libyan,Algerian,Berber,German,English,Turkish,Hebrew,Egyptians etc?

And what exactly are Atlantean cultures? Those who live in or around the Atlantic Ocean?
And what exactly are Atlantic cultures? Those who live in or around the Atlantic Ocean?

Naturaly this would include the Americas upon her eastern shores.

How do you think they knew about the opposite and boundless continent across the Atlantic?
Do you think that the Atlanteans were isolated to their island and had not settled upon other shorelines like Portugal or Africa prior to her final demise or that there were survivors?

You may doubt the island of Atlantis and her Royal City, but you cannot doubt Atlantean cultures.
No matter what reasoning you try to elude yourself with!

We are ALL Atlantean descendants.
Besides Qoais, I was born in the middle of the Atlantic Ocean, thus Atlantean, and I do exist.


As for the Ships, the Egyptian Priest would have known about their ships from around 3-4000.bC considering the records of Menes et al.
The Atlantean war did not occur 9000 or 8000 years prior Solon, nor did the island finaly disappear in those eras.
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Qoais
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« Reply #2068 on: June 09, 2010, 05:12:56 pm »

You can call people who live on the shores of the Atlantic Ocean, anything you like, but it still doesn't make Plato's Atlantis real. 
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« Reply #2069 on: June 15, 2010, 05:03:25 pm »

Qoais;

The Sumerians had a city or locale. (Sumer)
The Babylonians had a city or locale. (Babylon)
The Anueans had a city or locale.
The Mayans had a city or locale.
The Minoans had a city or locale.
The Pelasgians had a city or locale.

etc, etc, etc.
Now why wouldn't the Atlanteans have had a city or locale called Atlantis?

Part of the problem with our academics is that Atlantic Cultures are "scholarly common", whereas this erroneous term can mean anything, like cells, bacteria, microbes, etc. Atlantic is an Ocean. To identify people you have to add the ean or ian endings.

Thus Atlantean, Pacificean, Indean.

Any one on or around the Atlantic Ocean are Atlanteans, yesterday and today.



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