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Plato's Atlantis My Theory

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Qoais
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« Reply #1605 on: October 20, 2009, 10:37:57 am »

"We found ceramics dating back to the end of the stone age, which suggested that the settlement was occupied some 5,000 years ago, at least 1,200 years earlier than originally thought," said Henderson, who co-directed the underwater survey.

"Our investigations also revealed over 9,000 square meters of new buildings. But what really took us by surprise was the discovery of a possible megaron, a monumental structure with a large rectangular hall, which also suggests that the town had been used by an elite, and automatically raised the status of the settlement."

More than any other underwater site so far, the find offers potential insights into the workings of Mycenaean society.

"It is significant because as a submerged site it was never reoccupied," said Elias Spondylis, who co-directed the survey as the head of Greece's underwater antiquities department. "As such it represents a frozen moment of the past."

Marine geologists have yet to work out why the settlement sank. Theories include sea level changes, ground subsidence as the result of earthquakes, or a tsunami.

"It is very likely a combination of the first two," said Dimitris Sakellariou, at the Greek Institute of Oceanography. "As the world's oldest submerged city it is truly amazing. It not only shows how people lived at the time is also of great interest to natural scientists because the waters around it are so shallow."

Locals in the nearby town of Neapolis are delighted. "Older generations always knew something was there but we had no idea about the extent of it," said Neapolis's mayor, Yiannis Kousoulis.

It is the first time a sunken city has been found in Greece that predates the time that Plato wrote his allegorical tale of the sunken continent of Atlantis.

"Atlantis was a myth but it is a myth that keeps underwater exploration going," said Sakellariou. "Less than 1% of the world's ocean floors have ever been surveyed. This is an extraordinary find but there is still a lot more down there that has to be found."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2009/oct/16/lost-greek-city-atlantis-myth
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« Reply #1606 on: October 20, 2009, 10:39:43 am »

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« Reply #1607 on: October 20, 2009, 10:43:57 am »

Really when we think about it, the story of Atlantis is not a mystery.  It's just a fairy tale like any other, but without a prince and princess living happily ever after!!  Plato told it from a realistic perspective - his viewpoint - from what knowledge he had and a wish to please his host Socrates.  He did a great job of it, as I've said so many times before.
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« Reply #1608 on: October 20, 2009, 10:40:44 pm »

 Smiley  QUOTE FROM QOAIS:

Quote
It's just a fairy tale like any other, but without a prince and princess living happily ever after!!  Plato told it from a realistic perspective - his viewpoint - from what knowledge he had and a wish to please his host Socrates….
[/color]
I think there’s a point that you’re leaving out of your evaluation of all this Qoais.  Before the advent of written languages, the only way to preserve any knowledge and hand it down to the next generation, was to tell stories.  And children were raised to recount the story exactly the way it was told to them with strict memorization of every minute detail. 

They were also raised to respect their ancestors much like the Chinese ancestor worship, only to a lesser degree. 
So for Plato to have made this whole tale up like a “fairy tale” and attribute to his great grandfather Solon, wouldn’t he be doing a great dishonor to his ancestor?  Would he not in fact be placing his ancestor in the same light as a liar?

Then there’s what the priests of Sais say in his story… “that even you Greeks have preserved knowledge in your myths”  and he goes on to say something to the effect that… the myth of Helios driving the sun chariot too close to the earth and burning up things by doing so, was actually a historic event that was about the movement of planetary bodies. 

Without writing the only way to preserve any knowledge was thought the perpetuation of “stories” or “myths” and who better to preserve them than children, whose motives are clear, and unlikely to understand the real meaning of them and perhaps less likely to distort the truth.

Jesus uses the same technique in conveying what he has to say in “parables”.  So this “fairy tale” of Atlantis if not an actual event, is much more likely to be some sort of actual knowledge placed in the form of a story, for information to be preserved, than it is to be a complete prefabrication.
 Wink Mike


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« Reply #1609 on: October 21, 2009, 12:31:12 am »

Hi Sungate

I think modern people try to put too much of their own thinking into the story of Atlantis.  Yes, the children were taught to memorize so that was part of their daily life and customs.  As such, Plato mentions it.  Although it was more popular when he was young to have contests for youngsters to prove their skill at memorization, they apparently still did it because the whole purpose was to satisfy an audience (the theatre) as Socrates called it.  There is no dishonor in the story at all.  Just the opposite.  He is honoring his ancestor by saying he was the one who learned of this great tale.  Basically saying it's where he got the idea for the story. 

I think that most myths have grains of truth in them, not just Greek myths. It's possible as I've mentioned, that a cataclysm happened in Plato's time, that he used for inspiration such as the sinking of Helike. 

If the story was to preserve knowledge, I believe it would have been more specific regarding not just the detailed description of a particular piece of land, but of who lead the army, how many soldiers there were, where the fighting was taking place, who the rulers were of Athens and Atlantis at the time this all took place, what other city states were involved (that fell away and left Athens on her own)etc.  I mean if Plato could tell in such great detail what Atlantis looked like, why couldn't he at least say who was leading this great army of Athenians who beat her?  Why couldn't he say where the fighting took place and all these other allies "fell away"?

Because it seems that 12,000 years ago, there weren't really any city states to speak of in the first place.  Athens didn't exist as Athens that far back, and Egypt was not even in existence and wouldn't be for another 1000 years. So how does Egypt know so much of Greek history (and don't tell me about how stuff is preserved in Egypt because of the water or lack thereof) if she didn't exist until a thousand years later?  The whole story is full of holes.
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« Reply #1610 on: October 21, 2009, 10:19:14 am »

Quote
Without writing the only way to preserve any knowledge was thought the perpetuation of “stories” or “myths” and who better to preserve them than children, whose motives are clear, and unlikely to understand the real meaning of them and perhaps less likely to distort the truth.


As I said, I agree with this statement.  But if you're going to memorize such a great tale, surely you would be told more than just what the enemy's home place looked like?  If say, a surviving Atlantean told the tale to the Egyptian priests for instance, there's no doubt in my mind that he would have also told who his king was, who the generals were, how many battles it took for them to win before they got to Athens, etc.  They wouldn't be just telling about their homeland and how perfect it was, and how much each district had to contribute to the army.  The whole point of the story was to praise Athens somehow for her goddesses birthday.  One of the things Plato knew to talk about (more or less) was he idea of perfection, so he did. He applied it to Atlantis.  There was no need to give such detail about an enemy's manner of living.  If the story was to be about a war, then it should have been about a war.  It wasn't.  If anything would have been remembered that was important to a war, then it would have been a war story, not a story about a lost island.

Solon didn't write THAT story because I personally think, that what was in his notes wasn't quite like that.  IF Solon had notes at all that were available to Plato, it may have been mentioned in them how is was that the Egyptians could keep such fabulous libraries (due to the water and all), it's possible the notes contained some history otherwise unknown to Solon, and the notes could have included the Egyptians description of the peoples in surrounding countries.  They could have chatted about who warred with whom and when they did it.  There could have been a story handed down for centuries about Thera even, telling about how the place sunk in the ocean (but it would not have been Thera Plato was describing as he was pretty much describing the scene that would have unfolded at the sinking of Helike with the shoals of mud.  There would be no shoals of mud at the Thera sinking as that is a very deep cauldron.)  The Egyptians and the Greeks may have heard a story about Thera and if they were plying the waters in their own times, then they would be well aware of what Santorini now looked like.  It could be that Plato put the two event together, but having possibly seen the results of Helike described it as shoals of mud rather than a deep cauldron. 

No - I think if there was a story to pass on, it would have been a lot different than Plato's story of Atlantis.  I could see it if it was written in a different context.  Like say the way Herodotus wrote.  Telling about each type of peoples as he went along and describing what they looked like, and what they believed and how they lived.  Then a description such as Plato gave about Atlantis would fit within that type of work.  But to tell a story that should honor and praise Athens for being great in a war, it doesn't fit.  It doesn't work either.

Again, just for instance (I'm becoming a stuck record or I guess I should say a stuck CD!) but if Atlantis was just outside the straits of Gibraltar, then the mud would have blocked the straits and no other writings have talked about the straits being blocked to passage.  (History tells us the straits opened millions of years ago.)  Plato said voyagers could not sail from there.   
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« Reply #1611 on: October 21, 2009, 02:19:09 pm »

I'm sure I posted this before but one of the other things I tried to research was the history for trained horses especially pulling chariots. AS far as I could find out, there weren't any chariots 12,000 years ago. They hadn't invented the wheel yet. And remember, 12,000 years ago was the DESTRUCTION of Atlantis so any of this technology they supposedly had, like the chariots and triremes (large ships), had to have had a prequel - a buildup of knowledge and technique to be able to have these things at their DEMISE, so we have to assume they had this stuff hundreds of years BEFORE their demise, seeing how slowly the ages seemed to take to develop. So far, science hasn't proven there were chariots that far back in history.
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« Reply #1612 on: October 21, 2009, 04:12:59 pm »

Early wheeled vehicles in Sumer



Relief of early chariots on the Standard of Ur, ca. 2500 BC
The chariot probably originated in Mesopotamia about 3000 BC. The earliest depiction of vehicles in the context of warfare is on the Standard of Ur in southern Mesopotamia, ca. 2500 BC. These are more properly called wagons or carts, still double-axled and pulled by oxen or tamed asses before the introduction of horses ca. 2000 BC. Although sometimes carrying a spearman along with the charioteer (driver), such heavy proto-chariots, borne on solid wooden wheels and covered with skins, may have been part of the baggage train (e.g., during royal funeral processions) rather than vehicles of battle in themselves[citation needed]. The Sumerians had also a lighter, two-wheeled type of chariot, pulled by four asses, but still with solid wheels. The spoked wheel did not appear in Mesopotamia until the mid-2000s BC.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chariot


Plato is of course describing things as he knows them in his era.  He does not seem to realize that no such conveniences would have exitsted "9,000 years before Solon".  It's possible the knowledge of such things was lost, but it seems that science tells us that overall, there was no such knowledge in the timeframe Plato gives.
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« Reply #1613 on: October 21, 2009, 05:00:51 pm »

Repeating myself again, probably:

9000 years ago - Some farmers and shepherds are living in an area that will, sometime in the future, become Athens.

9000 years ago - Advanced Atlantis is attacking these shepherds and farmers and the shepherds and farmers win.

9000 years ago Athens saves Egypt, (which doesn't exist yet and won't for 1000 years) from Atlantean domination.

9000 years being 9000 years before Solon
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« Reply #1614 on: October 21, 2009, 11:37:42 pm »

I read somewhere that in ancient Greece, when they were writing the numbers out as in a story, they didn't write the numeral itself - 9000 for instance - but wrote the words for the numbers - as in nine thousand. 

eg:  As touching your citizens of nine thousand years ago, I will briefly inform you of their laws and of their most famous action;

Oops - thought I was in a different thread!!  Oh well.
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« Reply #1615 on: October 22, 2009, 06:22:22 pm »

It may seem to some people that I'm coming across a tad antagonistic when discussing certain subjects, but please don't think I feel that way at all. 

What's happened - is that I've shattered my own dream - burst my own bubble regarding Atlantis.  I've followed the facts until the trail went cold from every direction possible.  I've done work ups on other peoples theories to see if I could make SOMEthing work with the clues Plato gave us.  Nothing works.

Actually, as you can see from what I posted, it couldn't work - not the way Plato says anyway.  There were so many subjects to delve into to see if one could find correlations that supported the story, and the journey has been fantastic.  I learned a lot and was happy to do so. 
However, from all that research I have concluded that Atlantis did not exist, that Plato fabricated the story for the entertainment at their founding Goddess' birthday.  Am I upset with this conclusion?  No, not at all.

The most important thing I learned on my journey was to not take ANYTHING I read on the internet as truth unless I could back it up with other information, and if I was to give advice to anyone working on a project having to do research, it would be to check and double check everything you read on the internet, no matter the source.  If a site says it's authored by a scientist, check him out, see if his theories have been validated.  It will save you a lot of heartache and embarrassment in the long run.
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« Reply #1616 on: October 22, 2009, 06:22:58 pm »

 Cheesy  This doesn't mean I've given up hope though!! Cheesy
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« Reply #1617 on: October 23, 2009, 12:21:43 am »

 Smiley  Now that’s odd.  I know I posted a reply here last night, but it’s not here.  Now the odds of me finding what I found on the internet last night are not good, LOL. 

I found something about the Phoenicians and Carthaginians recording that the seas outside the Straights of Gibraltar were very shallow and hard to navigate.  I’ll look for it again, but here’s the more pertinent part of what I tried to post, (and I’ve said this before elsewhere).

I’m a firm believer in the phrase “where there’s smoke, there’s fire”.  I grew up with a father who was a UFO proponent, and I being more scientifically minded was very skeptical of that.  But over the years, I have encountered so many people who claim to have witnessed something that I’ve come to believe that this amount of non corroborative evidence, is in fact “evidence” in it’s own right.  That many people don’t make up stories or are victims of mass delusions. 

And I will account the same type of “evidence” for the existence of Atlantis.  Plato is by no means the only or even the original source of this tale.  In fact I’m sure one of the reasons that he choose to tell that story, is because his audience was already familiar with the story, but no one had set it down formerly, and he choose to elaborate on it.

The Hindu and Buddhist texts are far more ancient than Plato’s tale, and they not only recount the tale of a continent in the Atlantic that sank, but describe it as an aggressive, technologically advanced civilization, who waged wars and tried to denominate other peoples, until their continent sank into the sea, destroying it. 

The very text that Oppenheimer quote’s in “I have become the destroyer of worlds” is the end of a story that is about Atlantis waging war with the Rama, who were the survivors of the previously sunken continent in the Pacific, Mu, or Lemuria.  And the ancient Rama are destroyed by Atlantis with a nuclear weapon.   Those texts predate Plato’s tale by several thousand years, if not more.

I will not bring up Caycee here, who is another favorite source of Atlantean information here at AO, because he is after Plato’s time, (although not the person he was channeling, LOL.)  But there are similar legends and tales on virtually every continent in many other ancient civilizations who had no knowledge of Plato or his version of this tale.  The mound builders of North America for one, who have a tradition that they came to North America when their home in the Atlantic Ocean sank into the sea.   There are similar myths in peoples from all over the world.  It is a saying among all the American Indians, (not just the mound builders) that the land and the sea are always trading places.  Obviously when people survive such a thing, it tends to be told and retold until it is a myth.  And yes, I believe that people were around that long ago to witness it, even though we are talking at least 12,000 years ago, if not millions of years ago. 

For me the “proof” of something does not always lie in a black and white physical object that we can claim as “proof positive” of the accepted theory.  It was only a little more than 100 years ago that Troy was just a myth, and the gorilla was a “mythical animal”.  The myth of Atlantis is just waiting for the right time to be accepted… a time when people are willing to accept the “fact” that the ground beneath our feet could plummet us all to the bottom of the sea in a fortnight, LOL.
 Cool
Mike
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« Reply #1618 on: October 23, 2009, 10:19:05 am »

Just for the record, I'm not saying that there wasn't an incident somewhere in time that Plato used for his story.  I'm sure there was.  Whether it was Helike close to home, or the story of the lost city of Tartessos in Spain that maybe sailors brought to Greece.  But the whole story doesn't fit together with the "facts" Plato sets out.

The seas in the Strait of Gibraltar and just outside of it are shallow and have been ever since Gibraltar opened.  It's muddy there and shallow because of the constant movement of water into and out of the ocean, back and forth.  If you go to the Gibraltar thread, you will see aerial photos of the "mud". 

The Hindu texts you refer to, regarding the nuclear wars (which I was totally into at one time) turned out to be a channeled works.  Again, there is a thread in here somewhere where the Mahabharata is being posted and I don't think you'll find anything about Vimanas in there. Another bubble burst!!  In the search for Atlantis, I personally don't mind accepting paranormal means of getting information, but it's not accepted as proof unless one can actually touch the proof offered by such information, therefore, channeled works cannot be quoted as proof of anything.

Cayce has been a favorite of mine for years too, but again we need proof.

As I've said before, the only land outside the Pillars of Heracles at Gibraltar, is Spain and Morocco.  I asked, do we know of any ancient city that sunk on the western shores of North Africa?  Not that I know of.  Do we know of a lost city on the Spanish side?  Yes, we have Tartessos.  Was this the model for Plato's Atlantis?  Who knows?  Dr. R. Kuhne, who proposed Tartessos and instigated an expedition, has not posted for a long time, so whether or not his expedition found anything, we don't know yet.
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« Reply #1619 on: October 23, 2009, 11:08:35 am »

I should probably sit down and go over everything and list point for point what I found in my travels, but truth to tell, I'm a tad tired Tongue

We see in the beginning of the story where Plato says the Atlas he's talking about, that Atlantis is named after and the ocean as well, is the son of Poseidon not Iapetos.  If a story is going to be memorized as history, this one is already at odds with what the Greeks believed was the Theogony of their gods.  As I've said, anyone in the room listening would immediately know this was a story for entertainment.

The time frame - the biggest bugaboo in the whole story.  Had Plato not given a number of years at all, we would really be scrambling for the lost city.  But he did give a date and even though it's contested, the contention doesn't stand up.  It is said that the decimal was moved and that it was not 9 thousand years, but 900 years in the past.  I've said that at 900 years in the past, it would still have been a well remembered place in Solon's time due to all the wonderful attributes Plato gave it.  A magnificent city such as this and a power such as this, would not soon be forgotten.  900 years passing would not have erased the "world" memory of such a magnificent city of the original gods.  All we have is a passing mention of Atlanteans by Siculus and Herodotus, talking about some peoples who lived on the north coast of Africa, but they do not describe these people in any way as Plato puts it.  Herodotus is quite serious about the way he writes what he's told, and he certainly wasn't told the Atlanteans were a mighty power in the past.  The Egyptians would have been quick I think, to brag to Herodotus that they had defeated such a power, had that been the case; and if there had been records in the temples when Solon had visited, surely the story would have persevered in other places and been known.  In other words, 900 years would have been in the too recent past for Atlantis to have been gone and forgotten considering how mighty and powerful she was supposed to have been. 

Back to the decimal.  As I said previously, the ancient Greeks did not write the numbers as numerals.  They wrote them as words and I'm sure the word for thousand could not be mistaken for the word hundred.  (It's little things like this that really throw a person off when they're researching, because a little detail like this can debunk a whole theory).  Therefore, there is no such thing as the decimal being moved - ESPECIALLY since the ancient Greeks didn't use the decimal system.  Whether or not the measurements were in Greek stadia or Egyptian Stadia, isn't going to matter much unless a sunken circular city is actually found and measured, and then of course the resulting measurements will be qualified as either/or after the fact so the supposed found city will fit the bill like it's supposed to.  I mean, here's us in our modern times thinking wow, how is it that Plato knew all these dimensions (or whoever told the story to the priest in the first place) of an enemy city, but didn't know who the warlords were!  Maybe Plato made those measurements up as well Roll Eyes Huh  Maybe that was his idea of the perfect allotment of land and the ideal setting for a city.  One can definitely see where if there were rings of water around your city, you wouldn't be readily attacked, especially if those walls were hard to climb because they were covered with slippery metal, and if you happened to want to climb them when a storm struck, you'd be fried meat!!

Now I know we've mentioned this hundreds of times concerning the Triremes in the harbour.  I'm sure we understand that Plato was describing the ships he was familiar with, because even if there were ships the size of Triremes 9000 years before Solon, how would Plato know what they were called or the Egyptians either unless of course a verbal story was handed down regarding these large ships.  But, since science has so far proven that the oldest ships are 5000 years old, and that although they COULD sail in the ocean for short voyages, they wouldn't have been suitable for constant ocean travelling as would be needed for the Atlanteans if they were out in the Atlantic Ocean.  Yes we have depictions on cave walls of boats from the far distant past, but we do not see depictions of Triremes from 9000 years before Solon. 

Regarding the shoals of mud, it is my opinion using a bit of logic, that Plato is describing the sinking of a piece of land that is surrounded by shallow water and other land, not a piece of land out in the middle of the deep.  Compare his description to Thera, where it is out in the deep.  There would be no shoals of mud.  There would be a deep cauldron.  Therefore, this city of Atlantis, must be somewhere that the surrounding area is not deep enough to leave a cauldron, but instead, only deep enough to leave shoals of mud on the surface, disallowing passage.   Most cities were built near rivers for access to the water for travelling as well as sustenance.  We read about cities that are built on the shores near the ocean that are later destroyed and washed away, but man being a stubborn creature, rebuilds right next to the water again, and over and over his cities are taken by nature, and they blame it on the gods being angry!!!  You say well, the city itself was maybe in the mouth of a river on this huge island.  Ok, I'll buy that, but where's the big island?  As I've said before, Spain was originally thought to BE an island, however, not by Solon's time, and definitely by Plato's time it was known that Spain was not an island.  However, if Plato is using the "once upon a time, in a land far far away" tactic, then he could be relating to Spain when she was known as an island.  First there was an island then there was no island then there was.  (Words of an obsolete song - change island for mountain in the song!)  (Also it would fit with the sailors' stories of a sunken city beyond the straits).

Anyway, I suppose the ultimate goal is still to find the city Plato based his story on.  Will we ever know for sure that in fact any specific city would be the one he used for an example?  Who knows, until we find it Smiley
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An open-minded view of the past allows for an unprejudiced glimpse into the future.

Logic rules.

"Intellectual brilliance is no guarantee against being dead wrong."
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