Evidence Synthesis of Atlantis in Greenland

[Mario Dantas]

[...]"And why I ask, did the ancient man worship the planets? And why Zeus, Jupiter, was the main deity? And would you know if you go out, would all of you know to identify among the stars the main deity, planet Jupiter, worshiped by all ancient world? And why was the sun a secondary deity, if everything was always as it is now? Why human sacrifices were brought to planetary gods?"[...]

[...]"But today almost every orbit is free of being inter chained with another orbit. Nothing spectacular from cosmic spaces is in store for us. "[...]

Immanuel Velikovsky in "Mankind in Amnesia"
Lecture before the Graduate Student Forum in Princeton, December 6, 1967


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[Mario Dantas]

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[Mario Dantas]

The Abrahamic religions

Abrahamic religion is a term commonly used to designate the three prevalent monotheistic religions – Judaism, Christianity, and Islam[1][2] – which claim Abraham (Hebrew: Avraham אַבְרָהָם ; Arabic: Ibrahim ابراهيم ) as a part of their sacred history. Other, smaller religions that identify with this tradition – such as the Baha'i Faith are sometimes included.[3]

Abrahamic religions account for more than half of the world's total population. Today, there are around 3.8 billion followers of various Abrahamic religions[4].

Eastern religions form the other major religious group, encompassing the "Dharmic" religions of India and the "Taoic" East Asian religions - both terms being parallels of the 'Abrahamic' category.


Abrahamic religion
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[Mario Dantas]

Abrahamic religions

"Abrahamic religions is a term of Islamic origin[1][2]. The view of Judaism, Christianity and Islam as three traditions with a single origin also has a tradition in the West, beginning with Gotthold Ephraim Lessing's Nathan the Wise (1779). The English expression "Abrahamic religions" arises in the 20th century, in ca. the 1960s (e.g. James Kritzeck, Sons of Abraham, 1965).

A number of commonalities between Judaism, Christianity, and Islam exist:

    * Monotheism. All three religions worship one God, although Jews and Muslims sometimes criticize the common Christian doctrine of the Holy Trinity as polytheistic. Many if not most of their followers believe that they worship the same one God.

    * A prophetic tradition. All three religions recognize figures called "prophets," though their lists differ, as do their interpretations of the prophetic role.

    * Semitic origins. Judaism and Islam originated among Semitic peoples – namely the Jews and Arabs, respectively – while Christianity arose out of Judaism.

    * A basis in divine revelation rather than, for example, philosophical speculation or custom.

    * An ethical orientation. All three religions speak of a choice between good and evil, which is conflated with obedience or disobedience to God.

    * A linear concept of history, beginning with the Creation and the concept that God works through history.

    * Association with the desert, which some commentators believe has imbued these religions with a particular ethos.

    * Devotion to the traditions found in the Bible and the Qur'an, such as the stories of Adam, Noah, Abraham, and Moses.

It is the choice of Abraham as a common label that makes them Abrahamic. It stems from his reputation as the "Father of many" (which is the literal meaning of his name). Since he is claimed by Jewish tradition as the ancestor of the Israelites, and his son Ishmael (Isma'il) by Muslim tradition as the ancestor of the Arabs, and by Christians as a "father in faith" (see Romans 4) the phrase may be meant to suggest that all three religions come from one source.

For example, Zoroastrianism is monotheistic, prophetic, ethical, revelatory, oriented toward history, and associated with the desert, though it is Indo-Iranian rather than Semitic, and does not identify with the characters and events of the Bible and Qur'an so it is not Abrahamic although there is a strong likelihood of Zoroastrian influence on the Abrahamic religions. Meanwhile Sikhism is monotheistic, ethical, revelatory, and arguably prophetic, though its origins are Indic rather than Middle Eastern [citation needed].

Adam, Noah, and Moses are also common to all three religions. As for why we do not speak of an "Adamic," "Noachian," or "Mosaic" family, this may be for fear of confusion. Adam and Noah are said to be the ancestors of all humanity (though as named characters they are specific to the Biblical/Qur'anic tradition). Moses is closely associated with Judaism and, through Judaism, continuing into Christianity; Moses is regarded as a Prophet in Islam, but the term "Mosaic" may imply a genealogical lineage which the first Muslims -- being Arab -- did not share (e.g., descending from Ishmael). Thus, the scope suggested by the first two terms is larger than intended, while the third is too small."


"Judaism's origins—along with those of the ancestral Abrahamic religion—are still obscure."



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[...]  "* For Jews he is primarily a revered ancestor or Patriarch (referred to as "Our Father Abraham") to whom God made several promises: that he would have numberless descendants, and that they would receive the land of Canaan (the "Promised Land"). Somewhat less divisively, according to Jewish tradition, Abraham was the first post-flood person to reject idolatry through rational analysis. (Shem and Eber carried on the Tradition from Noah), hence he symbolically appears as a fundamental figure for monotheistic religion.

    * For Christians, Abraham is a spiritual forebear rather than a direct ancestor.[5] For example, Christian iconography depicts him as an early witness to the Trinity in the form of three "angels" who visited him (the Hospitality of Abraham). In Christian belief, Abraham is a model of faith,[6] and his intention to obey God by offering up Isaac is seen as a foreshadowing of God's offering of his son, Jesus.[7] A longstanding tendency of Christian commentators is to interpret God's promises to Abraham, as applying to Christianity (the "True Israel") rather than Judaism (whose representatives rejected Christ). See also New Covenant.

    * In Islam, Ibrahim is considered one of a line of prophets beginning with Adam (Genesis 20:7 also calls him a "prophet") and extending down to Muhammad, as well as the "first Muslim" – i.e., the first monotheist in a world where monotheism was lost. He is also referred to in Islam as ابونة ابرهيم or "Our Father Abraham", as well as Ibrahim al-Hanif or Abraham the Monotheist. Islam holds that it was Ishmael (Isma'il) (Muhammad's ancestor) rather than Isaac whom Ibrahim was instructed to sacrifice. In addition to this spiritual lineage, the northern Adnani Arab tribes trace their lineage to Isma'il (and thus to Abraham)."[...]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abrahamic_religions

[Mario Dantas]

"The k'laf/parchment on which the Torah scroll is written, the hair or sinew with which the panels of parchment are sewn together, and the quill pen with which the text is written all must come from ritually clean - that is, kosher, animals. ... A scribe may never use tools of "base metals," for these are associated with implements of war."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abrahamic_religions

[Mario Dantas]

Circumcision

"Both Judaism and Islam prescribe circumcision for males as a token symbol of dedication to the religion. Islam also recommends this practice as a form of cleanliness. Western Christianity replaced that custom by a baptism ceremony that varies according to the denomination, but generally includes immersion, aspersion or anointment with water. Because of the decision of the Early Church (Acts 15, the Council of Jerusalem) that circumcision is not mandatory, it continues to be optional, though the Council of Florence[11] prohibited it and paragraph #2297 of the Catholic Catechism calls non-medical amputation or mutilation immoral[12].[13] Many countries with majorities of Christian adherents have low circumcision rates (with the notable exception of the United States[1], and the Philippines). Coptic Christianity and Ethiopian Orthodoxy still observe circumcision."

Abrahamic religion
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abrahamic_religions
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History of male circumcision

"It has been variously proposed that male circumcision began as a religious sacrifice, as a rite of passage marking a boy's entrance into adulthood, as a form of sympathetic magic to ensure virility, as a means of suppressing (or enhancing) sexual pleasure, as an aid to hygiene where regular bathing was impractical, as a means of marking those of lower (or higher) social status, as a means of differentiating a circumcising group from their non-circumcising neighbors, as a means of discouraging **** or other socially proscribed sexual behaviors, to remove "excess" pleasure, to increase a man's attractiveness to women, as a symbolic castration, as a demonstration of one's ability to endure pain, or as a male counterpart to menstruation or the breaking of the hymen. It has been suggested that the custom of circumcision gave advantages to tribes that practiced it and thus led to its spread regardless of whether the people understood this.[1] It is possible that circumcision arose independently in different cultures for different reasons

Prior to 1989, the American Academy of Pediatrics had a long-standing opinion that medical indications for routine circumcision were lacking. This stance, according to the AMA, was reversed in 1989, following new evidence of reduction in risk of urinary tract infection. [9] A study in 1987 found that the prominent reasons for parents choosing circumcision were "concerns about the attitudes of peers and their sons' self concept in the future," rather than medical concerns.[27] A 1999 study reported that reasons for circumcision included "ease of hygiene (67 percent), ease of infant circumcision compared with adult circumcision (63 percent), medical benefit (41 percent), and father circumcised (37 percent)." The authors commented that "Medical benefits were cited more frequently in this study than in past studies, although medical issues remain secondary to hygience and convenience."[28] A 2001 study reported that "The most important reason to circumcise or not circumcise the child was health reasons."

The major medical societies in America[33], Britain[34], Canada[35], Australia and New Zealand[36] do not recommend routine non-therapeutic infant circumcision. Major medical organizations in the United States and Canada now say that parents should decide what is in their child's best interests, declining to make a recommendation one way or another.

In recent years, some have voiced ethical concerns about the procedure. See Bioethics of neonatal circumcision for more information."



History of male circumcision
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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[Mario Dantas]

Continuing...

In 2005, a study suggested that male circumcision can reduce the chance of H.I.V. infection in men. The study was conducted on more than 3,000 HIV-negative South African men, ages 18 to 24. Half of the men were randomly selected to be circumcised while the other half remained uncircumcised.After following the men for a year, the researchers found that for every 10 uncircumcised men in the study who became infected with HIV, the virus that causes AIDS, only an estimated three circumcised men contracted the virus. [38]

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By the 1890s, hernia, bladder infections, kidney stones, insomnia, chronic indigestion, rheumatism, epilepsy, asthma, bedwetting, Bright's disease, erectile dysfunction, syphilis, insanity, and skin cancer had all been linked to the foreskin, and many physicians advocated universal circumcision as a preventive health measure. In 1855, the Quaker surgeon, Jonathan Hutchinson, observed that circumcision appeared to protect against syphilis.[3] Although this observation was challenged (the protection that Jews appear to have are more likely due to cultural factors[4]), a 2006 systematic review concluded that the evidence "strongly indicates that circumcised men are at lower risk ... syphilis."[5]

History of male circumcision
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[Boreas]

Whatever Age is to be attributed to the Bock Saga, wouldn't it, still, be older than any known Civilization, by far? and therefore should be regarded as itself claims to be, the Original Civilization, from which all others derive, Culturally and genetically?

Civilisation is MUCH older than hereto attributed by the (historically) very young profession we call "Scientifc history". Remember that ALL the old civilistions (and their respective traditions of knowledge) have been radically diminished - if not completly errased, during a rather recent and short period of mankinds time on earth.

Further we have to consider - what a lot of participants on forums like this already start to realize - that all the old centres of the ancient "antique" cultures were all brought down. Natural disasters sure have played a part in that process, but the enduring and thus decisive factor seems to be a "bewilderment"  man himself.

Thus it seems imminent to sear out the reasons why some individuals, groups and consequently sub-cultures of the once civil mankind started to behave destructive towards. So far we have reached back to what Gimbutas and others identifies as "the start of violence and warfare" - somewhere around 4.000 BP. According  Gimbutas the archeological signs of agressive and violent cultures are hardly present before the last part of Bronze Age. Thus the "Iron Age" seem to be he initial phase of physical violence as a political factor.

Needless to say - as the use of physical violence and brute force became "beneficial" we see that offensive behaviour started  pay off - as the brute would always "outdo" the natural man. Thus the "psychology of strife" finally spread throughout the entire old world - destroying the old civilisations.

Since ONE consequent criminal is enough to infect an entire village - the "crimnal mind" and "unethical haviour" became a gordic knot to the old sages and leaders of the basically peacefu and cultivated societies of antiquety. Executing greed - assault, piracy and plunder was forced onto all the antique societies.

3.900 years ago the spiral of violence seems to have been accelrating - as the first organised armies start to march - taking on not only villages and towns, but entire states. Thus today's archeology can follow a wave of conquesting wars as they find the old civil centres south of the Persian Gulf becoming invaded and burnt.

As Ur and Babylonia are conquered we find new (illegitimate) "masters" ruling the remaining populations of the area. It is in this time the regime of "The New Babylon" arises...

Some century later the new masters have advanced their powers - and the wave of war would finally reach the Levant, Anatolia, Egypt and Greece, challenging the very centres of the old civilisation in Asia Minor, Africa and Europe.

At this point the mind-set of conquest had become "legitimized" by the (illegtimate) new kings of the new culture, that were now ready to inde and conquer the entire Mediterranen area. Thus we had a fundamental challenge arising, as the indigenious populations had to chose between "figthing" (to kill) or "non-figthing" (to keep their integrity as mammal creatures).

Some 3.200 years ago we hear of the first genocides - as the indigenous culture of the Levant, the Greeks of the Levant, called the Mittani, was errased as a culture - slaughtered to the last individual; males and femals, young and old alike.

This new, offensive and "victorious" culture spread to became a threat to all the old societies of the old world - and thus it became "omnipresent". When the wave of war reached the Mediterranean isles the resistance of the antique powers had grown into organised armies - and the great cultural challenge, between the invasive and the defensive cultures was launched in what we know to be the Trojan Wars.


Since them the wave have been reaching all around the globe, as the charioteers turned into conquerors and conquistadors, equipped not only with he first WMD but a specific "Codex of Culture" to go with the "Rule of The Victorious" - to effectively subjugate and rule a conquered - and potentially oppressive(!) - population.

It's in this phase of the cultural decline that the old, traditional values and laws - based on the laws of nature - were to be suppressed and abandoned, since they would always defy the rule of any invader, anywhere. Thus a successful conquerer would always need to silence - preferably forever - a legitimate ruler of a neighbouring country,since his/her people would exercise freedoms opposite to the subjects of the tyranny of the conqueror - and thus remind the enslaved population of their lost freedom, dignity and true identity.

Consequently it became necessary to develop a completly new culture of rulership - improving the concepts known as the "New Babylon", to effectively erase the memory of the old. It was in this phase that the ingenious insight dawnes on the tyrants; "To rule a people you just need to erase their history...!"

To effectively do so the new concepts of philosophy was introduced - built over the fantasies of some bewildered "magis", who could turn away from the basic concepts of our inborn intelligence,common sense and perception of nature. Thus they slided from explaining the order of nature, via the extra-ordinary but still real phenomenons of nature to an entirely hypothetic realm - as a foundation for a new basis of phiosophy, created to legitimize the rule of the tyranny and develop obedience rather than oppression.

In this post-war situation illegitimate rulers would enforce a shift in the basic matrix of the philosophy and politics of the people - where the natural and super-natural was to be over-taken, over-ruled and over-looked by a new and invisible force - supposed to be larger, stronger and more important to life than the sun itself.

Driven by the need of "supremacy" they moved the existential philosophy away from the concepts of "nature" and "super-nature" (phenomenons") - to a state of "HYPER-nature". The old concept of our common ancestors - known as The Allfather and The Earthmother - was consequently moved from a historical context explaining the natural origin of mankind - to an invisible hyper-existence "In the eternal heavens, behind the sun". 

The consequence was grave and extensive - since entire nations were subdued to the new rule, one by one. Finally - during the civil wars of the Levant - the female traditions was completly abandoned and the entire concept of a "earth-mother" was also erased, leaving "Allfather" all on his own - to be the one-and-only EVE-RY-THING. Since then all women should also subdue - to their respective men, who in turn should subdue to their - alas - one-and-only master; being the "appointed ruler".
   
Thus we got a school of political philosophy that proved very effective - as it was refined to rule and regulate every aspect of the individual life - from the morning to the evening. Supported by the military power of a successful warlord the new set of rules - in the one-and-only book allowed - proved to effectively move the minds - and thus the hands and feet - of entire nations. Thus it was called "RE-LE" meaning "shift"/"move" and "GA-RE" meaning "yards"/"populations".  Today we know it as "rele-gare" or "reli-gio".


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Modern history have - so far - shown unable to explain the further details around the origin of these hitorically modern forms of pilosophy, known as "religion" - in the context of an abstract "ruler" - or a personalized "God". For more than 3.000 years this hypothesis have been proven only by the help of the sword - turning the obedient into the "right path" and the "good faith".

Face to face with war, poverty or social stability we still see entire populations meticously follwing the rituals prescribed by the religion(s). Thus the "good faith" of today can ineed help people of today to socialize and gather around fires, altars and tables - to relate and co-operate in solving common problems. But we still have to understand that this faith in "the one-and-only" up there also make people neglect their own intellect and their natural common sense, - not only forgetting their biological nature but also their natural integrity as responsible citizens and matured human beings...

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As we find out about the social stability and cultural prosperity of the antique civilisations we may start to understand the struggle and despair that hit the old Mesopotamians, Greeks and Egyptians as a rude and reckless war was followed by a superstitious culture of magicians and sorcerers, along with the hyper-philosophy of the new masters of churches and faculties. Luckily we had some protestants in Europe that were able to brake out of the papal regime and restore some of the old values of politics, philosophy and academy - that made it possible to form non-religious constitutions, democracy, free speech and an open science - as well as web-sites like this...!

Finally we are able to discuss the history and nature of ALL available sources about our pre-religious cultures, without obsessive stigmas or correcting monocles. As we finally got a global language and a technical network that may reach all and evryone of us we may say that the old plan of the Atlantean sailors finally came through. Only under this circmstance - "when all the world could watch, hear and see" - would the time be rigth to convey the "History of Man" as it is told by the family-saga from Finland.

As a young boy Ior Bock was told that ne day he should have to tell the family's secret saga to the public. Aged 42 his mother died - leaving him a will that stated that he had to open the story as of her funeral, at midsummer 1984. 23 years later he still speaks - although his health have suffered severely by his quadroplgic condition. We still may pray (!)that the excavation of the tempel-mountain may pick up again before it would to late for him to explain the museal art supposed to be stored inside the tempel-moutain east of Helsnki.

[rockessence]

Boreas,

Best paper I've read in a LONG time!  So great to have you back.... this should be in a book.

[Qoais]

Bravo Boreas - Rocky's right - this should be in a book.

[Bianca]

With Boreas' permission, I started this new thread with his article:


http://atlantisonline.smfforfree2.com/index.php/topic,4605.msg41799.html

[rockessence]

"The k'laf/parchment on which the Torah scroll is written, the hair or sinew with which the panels of parchment are sewn together, and the quill pen with which the text is written all must come from ritually clean - that is, kosher, animals. ... A scribe may never use tools of "base metals," for these are associated with implements of war."

This is a huge point, as far as I see things, in my own life.   I am not a Jew nor have ever lived "kosher", but through the meditations and studies of the past years I have come to the understanding that I cannot wear leather or feathers or use feathers in my bedding or furniture, and the reason is this: These animal products RETAIN THE ENERGY OF THE DEATH OF THE ANIMAL.

 Consequently, when our own body energy is close to that energy it overlaps and absorbs the hysteria that became part of the cells in the killing of the animal, or during the fearful life of the animal. 

This does not relate to FOUND feathers, however, nor to those gently removed from birds that are then released, such as in the making of the Hawaiian royal capes and implements.

Regarding the use of "base metals".... it is my opinion that this was a very important point DURING THAT PERIOD because the mental "way" we approach anything has a powerful effect on what we absorb and how we then absorb it.

The energy inherent in minerals has shifted and changed over the span of time that humans have been aware of energy.   However, one point may have remained the same.  The effect of many metals, copper and brass among them, causes the physical body to absorb energy ONLY ON THE PHYSICAL LEVEL.  In other words, it precludes the body being able to relate to subtle energies on the mental, emotional or spiritual level. 

The scribes not using "base metals" in their hands, regardless of their association with war, allowed them to have a sensitivity on the mental, emotional and spiritual levels that would not otherwise be possible.

[Mario Dantas]

Boreas i was touched by your view.
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[...]2. THE HILL IN A FLAT PLAIN

What do we know from Platos descriptions? (I used Burys translation /1/;the numbers show the references
(Stephanus-Pagination) in Timaeus and Critias;)


1. The residence of Atlas and his royal palace was situated not far from the sea on a hill, low on all sides (Crit.113C), in the centre of the city, which was laid out in a circle(Crit.116A).

2. The circular central island was surrounded by 3 rings of water and 2 rings of land, alternatively
(Crit.113D; 115E). The water rings were used as harbours and had access to the sea by a canal(Crit.115D)and by passages connecting the water rings(Crit.115E).

3. “The part about the city was all a smooth plain”(Crit.118A),highly fertile(Crit.113C), stretching along the sea. Its width from the sea inland was 1,5 times smaller than its extension along the sea (Crit.118A).

4. The plain was “rectilinear for the most part and elongated” (Crit.118C).

5. The plain was surrounded on all sides (save towards the ocean) by mountains that stretched toward the sea(Crit.118A). They sheltered the plain, which faced South, from the Northern blasts (Crit.118B).

6. The mountain streams drained into a ring canal round the whole plain (Crit.118C), discharging from both sides into the sea near the city (Crit.118D).

7. There were parallel canals at regular intervals, as well as connecting canals throughout the plain (Crit.118E), forming a canal grid. The canals were used by boats to carry wood from the mountains to the city.


What can we deduce from all this information?



Since the canals flow out into the sea and ships could enter from the sea into the canal system, the plain could not be far above sea-level, and was only slightly inclined from the mountain side to the sea side. A regular, level plain, surrounded on all sides by a ring canal and covered by a grid of smaller canals for irrigation and draining, can only mean an alluvial plain. Either it must have been a big lagoon, which was filled with washed-up matter, or, most probably, it was the delta of a great river. When looking at an atlas, one will find that such large and even plains exist only in the delta regions of great rivers, and were formed by sedimentation from these rivers over thousands or millions of years. This idea is further confirmed by the fact that, after Atlantis was flooded, the resulting mud was a hindrance to ship traffic (Tim.25D). A great river – and there is mention of rivers that flow from the mountains (Crit.118D-E) – must be fed from a large area. One must therefore contradict those who say that Atlantis was only slightly larger that the plain itself. If it were an island, it would have to have been 10 times bigger than the plain, if not more. In an alluvial plain, the soil would have been very rich and fertile, as it is described in (Crit.113C). The construction and upkeep of the canals would be an enormous task, which Plato has mentioned as being almost unbelievable (Crit.118C). Managing this task was probably the reason for the development of a central organization and thus the starting point of the state of Atlantis. At least, that is what we believe about other early highly-developed cultures that began in big river oases or deltas in order to organize of the necessary drainage and irrigation, e.g. in Mesopotamia, in the Indus Valley, the great river region of China, and the Nile Valley. One could almost surmise that the culture of Atlantis had its origins in roughly the same time period as these other archaeologically-studied high cultures, although I will not speculate about the time-frame here. Plato described the plain as a rectangle (Crit.118C), see Fig.1. But a perfect rectangular plain, surrounded by mountain chains on three sides, exists nowhere on the globe. It seems that Plato, who never saw the site himself, imagined from Solons description that the whole plain was a rectangle, and therefore calculated the “consequent length” of the circumferential canal to be 2 x 3000 + 2 x 2000 (for the 4 sides) = 10000 stades (Crit.118D)."[...]


Platos Atlantis was in a River Delta
Ulf Richter
Schwabenheim. Germany


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These new pictures, among other things, are a 3 dimensional imagery revealing aspects not known to me about this Plain. The mountain "not very high on any side", consequently "round", is there, notice the slight inclination of the Plain. Only in this way could, it could have been possible.

"Since the canals flow out into the sea and ships could enter from the sea into the canal system, the plain could not be far above sea-level, and was only slightly inclined from the mountain side to the sea side"

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"But a perfect rectangular plain, surrounded by mountain chains on three sides, exists nowhere on the globe"

Dr.Ulf Richter and many others didn't know of the Plain because, only recently the images were available online. There is such a Plain and it is amazing!

dimensions for the plain (length 157 km, width 105 km)
the Royal City (diameter 6,6 km)

http://picasaweb.google.co.uk/bulimundo1/Island04

regards,
Mario Dantas

[rockessence]

Mario,

RE: "6 I always wondered why did Ior Bock start the Historical revelation, in 1984. I guess they had created a "clock" device within Civilization, that would ring as soon as it became more "developed" ( maybe when Slavery Abolition happens, or when technological development equals or surpasses their predecessors). "

Two reasons I think I have heard:
1- When Ior Bock's family had all died he had been instructed that the time was now to reveal.....

2- It was foretold from long ago that the time to reveal was when human females had self determination over their procreation again....

[Mario Dantas]

A strong indication indeed. I completely understand people's vexation on this subject. Too advanced. This is another clear sign.

quote:

"It was foretold from long ago that the time to reveal was when human females had self determination over their procreation again...."


thanks Rockessence

regards,
Mario Dantas