Adolf Schulten's Tartessos - leon elshout

[knakker]

Adolf Schulten was looking for Tartessos in Spain. After him came Helena Maria Whishaw. They did not find Tartessos. At best they found some remnants of Libyan settlements. You can save some money by not buying their books. I will tell you what Tartessos is. It is most likely the arabic name for Tarshish. Maybe it was projected on some river, area or city in Spain but originally, Tartessos was supposed to be Tarshish. King Esarhaddon of Assyria wrote that Tarshish was not a peninsula but an island.  In Ezekiel 38:13 we find a reference to Endtimes Tarshish: a mighty sea power with colonies. Adolf Schulten could have spend his money, time and energy better to simply read the Bible and travel to Tarshish. As we can travel to Atlantis, nowadays Al-Hillah, we can also travel to Tarshish. Below pics show the real Tarshish. Do we see any ruins on the sea bottom? No, we see modern skysrapers in Tarshish.

BEWARE, HERE IS TARSHISH: https://www.gettyimages.nl/fotos/london?phrase=london&sort=mostpopular

 https://roodgoudvanparvaim.nl

[knakker]

Tarshish = England

[senator Bam]

What are your reasons for identifying Tartessos &/or Tarshish with London/England?

From my own research I think its pretty sure from the Classical sources and other evidences that Tartessos was/is in south west Iberia and most likely somewhere between the Guadiana and Guadalquivir rivers. The most likely site is Huelva which Wikipedia lists quite a few quality evidences for.

Tarshish might or might not be Tartessos. I'm not sure of what location is most likely. Its details do seem pretty similar to Atlantis.

Atlantis city I am pretty sure is Tiahauanco in Peru/Bolivia wich has a number of compelling matches evidences (including the hill/mountain in centre, concentric circles, etc). Atlantis can't be in Galilee or Babylon/Hillah as they don't match details such as size, distance, direction, high mountains, large plain, "sunk", etc. The great city of Asshur in Genesis 10 also possibly matches both Tiahuanaco and Atlantis city.

London/Britain might match some other ancient uncertain location lands.

Tartessos/Tartessus identification details:
name Tartessos, meaning turdus "thrush"?
in Iberia.
an island.
very prosperous market.
harbour city.
great squared stones which Romans reused in other sites.
a tidal river (Tartessos/Baetis) which is largest in Iberia and which rises from the Pyrene mountain or Celtic lands and runs down / flows out to the sea by 2 mouths/arms which the city is between.
beyond/outside the Pillars of Herakles/Hercules/Melkart.
king Arganthonius "silver" ruled for 80 yrs & lived to 120 yo.
king Gargoris who invented bee-keeping.
rich in metals/tin/gold/copper.
a huge trade monopoly.
tin trade.
trading partners of Phoenicians.
nobles fond of hunting, travel, arts, sciences.
may have worshipped Astarte or Potnia and Baal or Melkart.
weasels there.
was in the west like Salmydessus was in the east.
may have disappeared due to conquest by Carthaginians in 533 bc, or may have been lost due to flooding.
700(0)/600(0) yrs before Strabo (63 bc - ad 21).

Tarshish details:
Name means rss/rasasu "mine" or "yellow/jasper" or "solid, rocky", or "a destruction that breaks into pieces of white, ie white volcanic ash rock or pumice" or "hard, hardness, severity, breaking, broken, subdued, subjected" or "gravitational energy, precipitant force".
navy/ships of (10:22, 2:16, 23:1, 60:9, 27:5).
Reached from Tyre, Ophir, Aqaba (3 yrs return trip), east wind, Joppa & Nineveh (10:22, 22:48, Chronicles 9:21, Chronicles 20:36, 48:7, Jonah).
metals/silver/gold (10:22, 10:9, 27:12).
ivory (10:22).
apes/babbons/monkeys (10:22).
peacocks/parrot (10:22).
merchant(s), riches (27:12, 38:13).
kings of (72:10).
daughter of (23:10).
stronghold (23:14).
in the heart of the seas (27:25)?
young lions (38:13).
There is no "and" between Tarshish & Kittim, which may mean Elishah & Tarshish are a pair, or Tarshish & Kittim are linked (Genesis 10).
versus Ishmael/Havilah/Egypt (Jasher 50:1-6)?
"name of a sea 2000 parasangs wide"?
stone of Tarshish.

Possible candidate locations of Tartessos in Iberia/Spain/Portugal (around the coast from west to east):
(Douro/Durius river, nw Portugal?)
(Tagus/Tejo river, sw Portugal?)
Lisbon/Olisipo/AlisUbbo, sw Portugal?
(Sado/Calipus river, sw Portugal?)
Mertola, se Portugal?
(Guadiana/AnavelAnas/Odiana river, sw Spain?)
necropolis at/in Medellin on the Guadiana, sw Spain?
(Odiel river, sw Spain?)
isla Saltes, sw Spain?
Huelva, sw Spain (enormous harbour walls, stone staircases, campina fertil, Arenilla & Umbria, Hercules place name)? *
(Rio Tinto, sw Spain (copper mines, canals between Tinto & Guadalquivir)?)
Niebla/Neibla sw Spain (inland harbour, cyclopean ruins)?
(Sierra Morena sw Spain (rich mineral deposits?)
(Marisma de Hinojos within Donana sw Spain?)
(Donana National Park (marshes, dunes, canals between Tinto & Guadalquivir, a 50 m x 40 m building which is half the size of Atlantis' palace/temple)?) *
(las Marismas del Guadalquivir, sw Spain?)
(Guadalquivir/Baetis/Kertis/Rerkes river, sw Spain (network of canals)?)
(Turdetani "thrush" tribe, Baeturia, sw Spain (most civilised, least warlike, writing, books, poems, laws)?)
ElCarambolo hill in Camas, sw Spain (gold hoard, wares)?
Seville/Hispalis, sw Spain (sun temple)?
Arcos?
Jerez, sw Spain?
Cadiz/Gades/Gadir, sw Spain (temple Melkart)? *
Barbate, sw Spain?
Spartel Bank sw Spain?
Carteia/ElRocadillo, sw Spain (Pliny)?
Tarteia, sw Spain? *
Carpia/Karpessos, sw Spain (Pausanias, Appian)? *
Gibraltar/Jabaltariq/Calpe, sw Spain?
Cartagena/SanRoque, sw Spain?
Ronda/Arunda, sw Spain (hydraulic engineering works, cyclopean ruins)?
Cartagena/Carthagonova, se Spain?
Elche/Elx, se Spain?
Tortosa, ne Spain?
(Ebro/Iberus river, ne Spain?)
Zaragosa/CaesarAugusta ne Spain?
Mt Montserrat (bull carved in stone)?
Tarragona/Tarraco, ne Spain?
Barcelona/Barcino, ne Spain (whale)?
(Ter river, ne Spain?)

Other suggested locations of Tarshish &/or Tartessos outside of Iberia/Spain/Gibraltar/Portugal/Andorra/Navarre:
Tarascan/Tabascan (Mexico/Mesomaerica)?
Tara (Ireland)?
Tintagel/Truro (UK)?
Dart (UK)?
Tardenoisian (sw France)?
Megalithic/heliolithic culture (see rock/stone/hard & force/energy meaning of Tarshish)?
Ceuta (nth Morocco)?
Tetouan (nth Morocco)?
Tech (sth France)?
Massilia (se France)?
Sardinia (Italy)?
Etruscans (Italy)?
Tarxien (Malta)?
Tartarus (far west, Hades, Greek/Classical/Roman)?
Thera (see volcanic meaning of Tarshish)?
Atlantis (Greek/Egyptian/Atlantean, definitely matches Tiahuanaco)? *
Russian?
Troy (nw Turkey)?
Dardanelles (nw Turkey/Greece/Bulgaria)?
Sardis?
Tarhuntassa (Hittite)?
Trapezium (ne Turkey)?
Tarsus (se Turkey)?
Atur-res/Pathros (Egypt)?
Tarshish (rss "mine" / "yellow/jasper" / "solid/rocky", sea ... parasangs wide, Biblical/Hebrew)? *
Atrahasis (Mesopotamian & Hittite/Hurrian)?
Susan?
Thar (India/Pakistan)?

References/sources on Tartessos (or Tarshish or Iberia) :
Appian
Aristotle
Atlantis Online forum
Atlantipedia
(Bible (Genesis 10, Ezekiel 38, Jonah))
Charles Berlitz Mystery of Atlantis & Mysteries from Forgotten Worlds.
Prof Blanco
BBC
(Book of Jasher (50:1-6))
(britam.org)
VS Bambrough headnheart.blogspot.com (defunct)
Sprague de C(h)amp & R Ley
(Ignatius Donnelly Atlantis Antediluvian World)
Ephorus
(Esarhaddon)
R Freund
Robert Graves White Goddess
(Google earth/maps)
Herodotus The Histories
(Herman Hoeh Compedium of History vol 2)
Hennig
Hermann
Justin (3rd cent historian)
Jessen
(Jewish Encyclopedia)
Simcha Jacobovici
Peter Kolosimo Timeless Earth
(Dr Kuhne)
JM Luzon
Ivar Lissner
Livy
(Sabatino Moscati World of the Phoenicians)
Nora Stone (Phoenician)
National Geographic
(James/Jim Nienhuis Genesis Veracity)
WA Oldfather (in American Journal of Philology)
Pausanias
Pliny
Pytheas
Plautus The Capitives
(David M Rohl on Italy/Spain)
Strabo
Schulten
Jurgen Spanuth Atlantis of the North
satellite
(Z Sitchin Lost Realms)
Tartessian/Turdetanian inscriptions
J Villarias-Robles
E Maria Wishaw
Wikipedia
(Zangger Flood from Heaven)
2011 surveys.

[knakker]

It is clear that the essence of my postings has completely passed you by.

Then for the umpteenth time. You approach Atlantis from an archaeological point of view, I do this from the theological point of view. These are two completely different approaches. Atlantis city cannot be Tiahauanco, which after all is not on the seabed. Moreover, in Timaios 25, Plato clearly mentioned the continent on the opposite side which is of course America, wherever Tiahauanco lies. The west where Plato placed Atlantis was actually the Greek underworld and not a physical island, which is what Plato made it. Atlantis as Tiahauanco would also not fit in the Biblical system of the aionian times.

You say that Atlantis cannot be Babylon / Al-Hillah because of the wrong direction and the size etc. Then you have not understood all my postings or you probably have not even read them. To begin with, Babylon is a desert city but connected to all the seas of the world through the Euphrates and, according to Revelation 17: 1-5, lies at the heart of all the world's seas. Furthermore, End Time Babylon / Hillah is the commercial capital of the Fourth End Kingdom mentioned in Daniel 2:40 and &: 19 & 7:23. This empire is in the Middle East, has ten kings and is certainly the size that Plato mentioned. Asia Minor is now Turkey. Why did Plato place Atlantis in the west while Babylon is in the east. This is because everything was mirrored within the range from sunrise to sunset.

More precisely, Babylon is located not only to the east but also to the north of Jerusalem. The south is then Egypt. Furthermore, it is quite clear that Athanasius Kircher's Atlantis map has the shape of a harp. Just like the Sea of ​​Galilee (Psalm 49: 4). Around this lake were ten cities that resonated with the ten kings of Atlantis. One of those cities was Gadara that resonated with Gadeira. All I admit to you is that it is not entirely certain whether Tartessos is indeed Tarshish. But it is obvious to think this. Tarshish, according to King Esarhaddon, was not a peninsula but an island completely surrounded by the sea.

Ezekiel 38:13 is about End Time Tarshish that still exists in our time. In the passage we read about a mighty seafaring island with independent ex colonies (young lions). This can only be England and not Spain. Who won the Falklands war again? Not the Spanish colonies. In the time of King Solomon we already read about Tarsish, which is England. This also means that the Strait of Gibraltar was not blocked by the mud of Atlantis, as Plato claimed.

leon elshout, https://roodgoudvanparvaim.nl

[knakker]

And... nothing is sure about what Tartessos exactly was, a city, area, country, river or all three. So let us be carefully to project Tartessos on Andalusia. If Tartessos is indeed Tarshish, which souns reasonable then I would say that Tartessos is both England, London and the Thames.

[senator Bam]

It is clear that the essence of my postings has completely passed you by.

Then for the umpteenth time.

Then you have not understood all my postings or you probably have not even read them.

I don't know what other posts you are referring to, I was replying to this thread/topic which I did read and understand though only very few details were given.

You approach Atlantis from an archaeological point of view, I do this from the theological point of view. These are two completely different approaches.

We should seek to synthesize all relevant types/fields of of evidences. I have searched the bible for Atlantis and found a number of possible candidates with the two best matches for the city being Asshur in Genesis 10 and Tarshish. But any candidate for Atlantis must match all the details given in the Atlantis Account, and match geography & history.
I'm not interested in fantasy or convenient.

Atlantis city cannot be Tiahauanco, which after all is not on the seabed.

This is the most often criticism that many people keep throwing at my Tiahuanaco thesis. However the wording of the original language version of the Atlantis Account is not so definite that Atlantis island/city "sank", and it is not clear whether the whole large island "sank" or just the royal island capital city "sank", and it doesn't say how long it "sank" for as it doesn't cover all the time after/since then until now. And Tiahuanaco is described as being involved in a very similar words description event eg "an avalanche/flood of water, and a sudden upheaval of unknown nature" etc (compare "quake(s) & flood(s)" etc in Atlantis Account). But unfortunately everyone I try to show the evidences to just keeps asserting "Atlantis is/was sank, Tiahuanaco isnt/didnt".
For more evidences see http://www.allempires.com/forum/ebook_view.asp?BookID=105&ChapterID=1593

Moreover, in Timaios 25, Plato clearly mentioned the continent on the opposite side which is of course America, wherever Tiahauanco lies.

The Atlantis Account doesn't say the Opposite Continent was America/Americas.
The Opposite Continent can't be Americas because there is not sunken/submerged large landmass (Atlantis) between Americas & Europe/Africa.
With Atlantis as (South) America(s) the Opposite Continent can be either Antarctica, North America, Asia, Australia, Mu/Lemuria.
The Atlantis Account is ambiguous so it is even possible that the opposite continent is actually the large island of Atlantis (South America) as seen from the royal island capital city Tiahuanaco in the Atlantic sea Titicaca.

Atlantis as Tiahauanco would also not fit in the Biblical system of the aionian times.

I assume you mean the conflict of 9000 yrs before Solon date.
The Atlantis 9000 yrs date is true but it it not certainly not literally true because of a number of reasons including Sais and Athens were not arround then, it conflicts with Bible's chronology, the Atlantis Account seems to imply Atlantis was bronze age & time of Mycenaeans.
The great city of Asshur of Genesis 10 would fit Atlantis as being one of the earliest founded cities.

To begin with, Babylon is a desert city but connected to all the seas of the world through the Euphrates and, according to Revelation 17: 1-5, lies at the heart of all the world's seas. Furthermore, End Time Babylon / Hillah is the commercial capital of the Fourth End Kingdom mentioned in Daniel 2:40 and &: 19 & 7:23. This empire is in the Middle East, has ten kings and is certainly the size that Plato mentioned. Asia Minor is now Turkey.

Why did Plato place Atlantis in the west while Babylon is in the east. This is because everything was mirrored within the range from sunrise to sunset.

No good. Atlantis Account and other sources clearly implies western direction literally eg invaded/conquered upto Tyrrhenia/Italy and Libya/Egypt, Atlantic sea, Pillars of Hercules.
Unless Babel/Shinar is not Babylon/Sumer (or Rome).

More precisely, Babylon is located not only to the east but also to the north of Jerusalem. The south is then Egypt.

Where does Bible say Babel/Babylon was north?

Furthermore, it is quite clear that Athanasius Kircher's Atlantis map has the shape of a harp. Just like the Sea of ​​Galilee (Psalm 49: 4).

Kirchir is not necessarily very reliable. His map clearly has Atlantis in Atlantic between North or South America and Europe & Africa. His Atlantis is land not sea. His Atlantis is similar shape to South or North America.

Around this lake were ten cities that resonated with the ten kings of Atlantis.

I think your match with the 10 horns/kings of Daniel/Revelation is better (I also had this match too). I don't think the 10 cities of Galilee are a good match.

One of those cities was Gadara that resonated with Gadeira.

I also noticed that too, but it doesn't match in details. There are a score of places that have similar names to Gadeira of the Atlantis Account including the Kedarus of Sanchuniathon and Kedar in the bible, Gades/Gadir. Agadir, Adirondacks. etc.

All I admit to you is that it is not entirely certain whether Tartessos is indeed Tarshish. But it is obvious to think this. Tarshish, according to King Esarhaddon, was not a peninsula but an island completely surrounded by the sea.

What are Esarhaddon's actual words?
"Island" in Greek, Egyptian, Biblical can mean either isle/island, peninsula, continent, coastlands.
Sources say Tartessos was between 2 river mouths. Bible doesn't seem to say if Tarshish was an island.

Ezekiel 38:13 is about End Time Tarshish that still exists in our time. In the passage we read about a mighty seafaring island with independent ex colonies (young lions). This can only be England and not Spain. Who won the Falklands war again? Not the Spanish colonies. In the time of King Solomon we already read about Tarsish, which is England.

Britain is not the only seafaring nation in history, and Tarshish isn't the only one in the bible. The ships of Kittim could be Britain (or USA or Atlantis).
I don't think young lions matches colonies.
Some details of Tarshish & of Tartessos which I listed don't match Britain.
Yes Ezekiel's merchants of Tarshish existed in his times and are in "end time" prophesy, so they might not match Atlantis, and they may match some modern nation, but I don't see much of a match with Britain.

This also means that the Strait of Gibraltar was not blocked by the mud of Atlantis, as Plato claimed.

The muddy shoal/sea was where the island "sank".
The Pillars of Hercules in Atlantis Account are not identified as Gibraltar in the Atlantis Account. Though they could be the ones there. Some scholars have cast doubts on the Gibraltar location. Atlantis was protu "before" the Pillars. "outside they came from the sea of Atlas (Titicaca)", which some say means the Atlanteans "came outside". "Atlantis was inside the Pillars, Athens was outside the Pillars". The Pillars were the most distant point of the world. The evidences seemingly suggest that the pillars may have been near Atlantis city. There are possible matches for the pillars in Peru area and/or other places between Peru and Gibraltar.
There are matches for muddy sea in Peruvian http://www.allempires.com/forum/ebook_view.asp?BookID=105&ChapterID=1647 near end .

[senator Bam]

To begin with, Babylon is a desert city but connected to all the seas of the world through the Euphrates and, according to Revelation 17: 1-5, lies at the heart of all the world's seas. Furthermore, End Time Babylon / Hillah is the commercial capital of the Fourth End Kingdom mentioned in Daniel 2:40 and &: 19 & 7:23. This empire is in the Middle East, has ten kings and is certainly the size that Plato mentioned. Asia Minor is now Turkey.

Sorry I missed this bit. There doesn't seem to be any edit post option?

I  agree that the 10 horns/kings of Daniel/Revelation might be 10 kings of Atlantis (& modern Atlantis Rising).
But the harlot/**** Babylon is riding the beast in Revelation so she is not the beast, though it is possible she is the capital city as you suggest.

The archaeological Babylon doesn't fit Atlantis of the Atlantis Account.
The biblical harlot Babylon in Revelation does sit among the waters, which might be "lies at the heart of the the worlds seas" like you suggest, though I'm not sure if that is what it means.

Babylon in Revelation might be Atlantis city as you have suggested (and as I have also wondered myself too). But in Genesis 10 I think Atlantis better matches the great city of Ashur rather than Babel. So I'm not totally sure myself what the correct match is in the bible for Atlantis city. The great city of Asshur and the harlot Babylon are both one of the only few cities in bible to be called "great". "Nineveh" in Jonah and Nahum/Habbukuk/Zephaniah might also be connected figuratively.

[knakker]

Plato was clear in the fact that Atlantis sunk completely to the sea bottom (See Revelation 18:23; Jeremiah 51:63-64) and that the continent on the otherside was America. You are right that there is no continent between Africa and America on thne sea bottom. Because it was the location of the Greek underworld. There was never any island Atlantis there. Never.

For the rest of your answers, you completely miss the mark of what I try to explain you. Atlantis is much more complex than you describe. You cannot simply say that Atlantis is Assur. It doesn't work like that. Atlantis has to fit in the aionian times and in tsaphon from sunrise to sundown. Atlantis has NOTHING tyo do with ruins but everything with the end of world capitalism on the banks of the Euphrates. And I did my homework.