Atlantis Online
November 20, 2019, 11:00:09 am
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Satellite images 'show Atlantis'
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/3766863.stm
 
  Home Help Arcade Gallery Links Staff List Calendar Login Register  

Timaeus on Atlantis in Eight Parallel Editions

Pages: 1 [2] 3 4 5   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Timaeus on Atlantis in Eight Parallel Editions  (Read 4129 times)
cicero
Sr. Member
****
Posts: 93

The historical-critical approach to Atlantis


WWW
« Reply #15 on: November 09, 2007, 01:44:51 pm »

I did identify the range of sections at the beginning of this thread, and I put each section of Timaeus into its own post. Since there are only six sections presented here, I thought that this was enough to easily ascertain which one a person is reading, but apparently this was not sufficient.  So just for you Cicero, each section has now been identified!
Great! Many thanks!
I am sure that not only I am pleased ...!
Report Spam   Logged

The historical-critical approach to Atlantis! http://www.atlantis-scout.de/
Danaus
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 188



« Reply #16 on: November 14, 2007, 11:32:44 pm »

"That people manage to get Atlantis in the Mediterranean is ...unforgivable."
-- The Aegean Sea was supposedly named after Aegeus in the days of Theseus.  I found a quote saying that the previous name of the Aegean Sea was.... Atlantic Sea.
Report Spam   Logged
cicero
Sr. Member
****
Posts: 93

The historical-critical approach to Atlantis


WWW
« Reply #17 on: November 15, 2007, 02:26:41 am »

"That people manage to get Atlantis in the Mediterranean is ...unforgivable."
-- The Aegean Sea was supposedly named after Aegeus in the days of Theseus.  I found a quote saying that the previous name of the Aegean Sea was.... Atlantic Sea.
Let's examine what you said:
" I found a quote saying that ..."
Ok. What does that mean?
For us readers: Nothing. Simply nothing. Because we cannot check it!
So far this information is worthless from a scientific point of view.
Would you please be so kind to give us the source of this information?
Then the information gains value.
Many thanks
Report Spam   Logged

The historical-critical approach to Atlantis! http://www.atlantis-scout.de/
Mark of Australia
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 703



« Reply #18 on: November 15, 2007, 04:32:51 am »

I'm saluting that one cicero .

The most annoying thing in Atlantology is the poor standard of scholarship that causes people to think it acceptable to make claims about ancient texts etc. without giving clear references to the source of their information.

It's unacceptable in books about Atlantis but I don't think Danaus has done anything wrong since this is 'just' a forum and anyone can ask him for the source. I would be a little irritated if his claim turned out to be a mirage though..

An example of what I would call pathetic in this regard, is a claim made in 'When the Sky Fell' by Rand and Rose Flem-Ath , it mentions twice how Athanasius Kircher claimed his map of Atlantis was originally stolen from Egypt by the invading Romans. There was no explanation for the source of this vital information. And when I finally got an answer from Rand Flem-Ath he just said he couldn't really remember how that arose !  Needless to say I am forced to ignore the claim now.

All I can say is if you're not sure of the claims you are making about ancient texts ,say so.



« Last Edit: November 15, 2007, 06:39:11 am by Mark Ponta » Report Spam   Logged
cicero
Sr. Member
****
Posts: 93

The historical-critical approach to Atlantis


WWW
« Reply #19 on: November 15, 2007, 06:13:16 am »

I'm saluting that one cicero .

...

All I can say is if you're not sure of the claims you are making about ancient texts ,say so.

Thank you very much, Mark Ponta.
Concerning the Kircher-map: Its legend is "Situs", i.e. "position" of Atlantis.
So Kircher intended to illustrate with this map the position of Atlantis as he saw it,
but nothing more. The rest is typical baroque phantasy drawings.
Report Spam   Logged

The historical-critical approach to Atlantis! http://www.atlantis-scout.de/
Danaus
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 188



« Reply #20 on: November 15, 2007, 11:29:19 pm »

I appologize for interrupting the topic.  Here is the Calcidius Timaeus:
http://gizacalc.freehostia.com/Library/Plato/Timaeus%20-%20Calcidius%20Latin%20+%20English%20+%20dividers.doc
**********
I was asked for some references, to my earlier statement.
1. Aegean Sea was named after Aegeus; What was the previous name?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aegean_Sea
"It was said to have been named after the Greek town of Aegae, or Aegea, a queen of the Amazons who died in the sea, or Aigaion, the "sea goat", another name of Briareus, one of the archaic Hecatonchires, or, especially among the Athenians, Aegeus, the father of Theseus, who drowned himself in the sea when he thought his son had died.

A possible etymology is a derivation from the Greek word αἶγες (aiges) "waves" (Hesychius; metaphorical use of αἴξ (aix) "goat"), hence "wavy sea", cf. also αἰγιαλός (aigialos) "coast"."

2. Steisichorus(600 BC) says a known place in the Aegean was in the Atlantic Sea.
http://www.theoi.com/Kosmos/Erytheia.html
"Stesichorus, Geryoneis Fragment S86 (from Scholiast on Apollonius Rhodius) :
"Stesikhoros in his Geryoneis calls an island in the Atlantic sea Sarpedonian."
[N.B. Sarpedon was the island of the Gorgones, which lay near Erytheia. Geryon himself was the grandson of the Gorgon Medousa.]"

3. This quote shows Sarpedonia is in the Aegean.
http://www.mythindex.com/greek-mythology/S/Sarpedonia.html
"SARPEDONIA SARPHDONIA
A surname of Artemis, derived from cape Sarpedon in Cilicia, where she had a temple with an oracle. (Strab. xiv, p. 676.) The masculine Sarpedonius occurs as a surname of Apollo in Cilicia. (Zosim. i. 57.)"

4. The mythology of Sarpedon points to Turkey.
http://www.mythindex.com/greek-mythology/S/Sarpedon.html
"became king of the Lycians"

5. The Erythia which is near the Island of the Gorgons (Kisthene) (Kisthene is located by Strabo)... is near this cape Sarpedon.
http://www.mythindex.com/greek-mythology/E/Erythrus.html
"2. A son of Rhadamanthus, who led the Erythraeans from Crete to the Ionian Erythrae. (Paus. vii. 3. § 4.)"
« Last Edit: November 16, 2007, 08:29:18 am by Danaus » Report Spam   Logged
Mark of Australia
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 703



« Reply #21 on: November 15, 2007, 11:43:43 pm »

Hi Danaus ,

Do you know the origin of the view that Sarpedon ,the island of the Gorgones was near Erytheia  ??

Report Spam   Logged
Danaus
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 188



« Reply #22 on: November 15, 2007, 11:59:20 pm »

Hi Danaus ,

Do you know the origin of the view that Sarpedon ,the island of the Gorgones was near Erytheia  ??

There are 6 Erytheia's, but only one near Sarpedon. (Spain, Egypt, Cyrene, Cyprus, Turkey, Euboea)
********
The location of the Gorgons is mentioned by Aeschylus (pre-dating Plato); Aeschylus says Kisthene.

Strabo mentions 2 places called Kisthene... one in Southern Turkey, and the other near this Cape Sarpedon.  I think this is because Cilicia moved south at a later date.

http://greek-texts.com/library/Aeschylus/Prometheus_bound/eng/69.html
"The Gorgonean plain, Kisthene called"
« Last Edit: November 16, 2007, 08:14:47 am by Danaus » Report Spam   Logged
cicero
Sr. Member
****
Posts: 93

The historical-critical approach to Atlantis


WWW
« Reply #23 on: November 16, 2007, 03:17:13 am »

Hm, I can't understand this posting.
What do you want to say us? What do you want to show us?

There is still a lack of proof concerning the Aegean = Atlantian Sea idea.

And what is the "Calcidius Timaeus"?
Who wrote it?
When?
With which intention?
Recurring on which sources?
Etc.
Report Spam   Logged

The historical-critical approach to Atlantis! http://www.atlantis-scout.de/
Danaus
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 188



« Reply #24 on: November 16, 2007, 07:52:35 am »

Quote
There is still a lack of proof concerning the Aegean = Atlantian Sea idea.
Topic 1: I have re-worded the post above to make it more clear.

Quote
And what is the "Calcidius Timaeus"?
Topic 2: Here is info on Calcidius.  A Cicero Timaeus exists as well, but it describes the nature of the Kosmos (it starts at Paragraph 30? After Atlantis).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calcidius
"Calcidius was a fourth century Christian who translated the first part (to 53c) of Plato's Timaeus from Greek into Latin around the year 321 and provided with it an extensive commentary. This was done for Bishop Hosius of Córdoba. Very little is otherwise known of him."

Note: I haven't seen a translation of the commentary, yet... It is written throughout the story on lines above; one of my goals is to eventually transcribe/translate this commentary.
« Last Edit: November 16, 2007, 08:27:25 am by Danaus » Report Spam   Logged
cicero
Sr. Member
****
Posts: 93

The historical-critical approach to Atlantis


WWW
« Reply #25 on: November 16, 2007, 09:03:14 am »

Quote
There is still a lack of proof concerning the Aegean = Atlantian Sea idea.
Topic 1: I have re-worded the post above to make it more clear.
Hm, do you still state the equation Aegean = Atlantian sea?
I am confused.

Quote
And what is the "Calcidius Timaeus"?
Topic 2: Here is info on Calcidius.  A Cicero Timaeus exists as well, but it describes the nature of the Kosmos (it starts at Paragraph 30? After Atlantis).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calcidius
Hm, I got it, but what does it help?
400 AC is ca. 800 years after Plato.
And a Latin translation does not help more than an English translation.
Report Spam   Logged

The historical-critical approach to Atlantis! http://www.atlantis-scout.de/
Horus
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 461



« Reply #26 on: November 16, 2007, 09:05:14 am »

It doesn't matter.  We know the Atlantic and Aegean cannot be logically equated to one another in Plato's Dialogues because the island of Atlantis which was at a minimum 2000 X 3000 stadia (345 miles X 230 miles) cannot fit there -especially -and this is the really important part -when the massive peninsula of prediluvian Hellas occupied this sea before it sank leaving behind the Cyclades and other islands as "bones of a wasted body".

Besides that, maps from around Solon's time show and mark the Atlantic Ocean on the other side of Gibraltar.  In fact the Greeks had already founded a colony in eastern Iberia by 500 B.C. proving that they had plied and explored the Western Med at that time.  
Report Spam   Logged

"For the greater individual is the one who is the servant of all. And to conquer self is greater than taking cities."

Reading 3253-2
Danaus
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 188



« Reply #27 on: November 16, 2007, 10:56:45 am »

Quote
There is still a lack of proof concerning the Aegean = Atlantian Sea idea.
Topic 1: I have re-worded the post above to make it more clear.
Hm, do you still state the equation Aegean = Atlantian sea?
I am confused.
-- The mythical Sarpedon lived 2 generations before Aegeus.  His location in Turkey is known.  The quote from Steisichorus says this location in Turkey is located in the Atlantic Sea.  However, we know this location is in the Aegean Sea.  Either Steisichorus was wrong by declaring Sarpedonia in the Atlantic Sea, or he was right, by implying that before Aegeus, the Aegean Sea was named Atlantic Sea.

Quote
And what is the "Calcidius Timaeus"?
Topic 2: Here is info on Calcidius.  A Cicero Timaeus exists as well, but it describes the nature of the Kosmos (it starts at Paragraph 30? After Atlantis).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calcidius
Hm, I got it, but what does it help?
400 AC is ca. 800 years after Plato.
And a Latin translation does not help more than an English translation.

The Ancient Greek Translation provided by Burnett is from 1900AD.  His Greek Sources derived from Printed Sources after 1500AD.  All of the 8 translations mentioned are derived from these same Printed Sources.

The Calcidius Latin Translation was created before the days of Proclus; although this edition came from printed Sources as well.  The Wazsink study uses earlier sources, and the link above shows a 12th century manuscript.  I have provided a computer translation of the Latin Calcidius Translation.  If you would like to see a comparison of this computer translation to Bury's English translation... that can be found here:
« Last Edit: November 16, 2007, 11:07:11 am by Danaus » Report Spam   Logged
Danaus
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 188



« Reply #28 on: November 16, 2007, 11:02:40 am »

Calcidius via Blitz Latin 24d-25d:
Quote
"[24d] Indeed as the warlike and wise the goddess has thought the requiring-to-be-selected such area, which of his/her/their she might be like with the man [seditura].

To these therefore to the laws even is it not that O [stioribus] and now to the customs towards the all manliness learned the old Athenians, as the own brothers of the divine family, with the most great and beyond capturing of the human glory with the titles of the praises to the nobility they are." -- Calcidius

"[24e] Out of which one the lofty and pre-beautiful we have discovered the deed in old memorials:

Huge formerly with the injuries and I count the impregnable hand, which near might have conquered now the altogether Europe and Asia, from your legions to be erased out of male Atlanticus the war with the all tribes and with the nations inflicting.

Indeed then that sea was being, I suppose, permeable having in the mouth and with the entrance of the bending the island, which mouth from you of Hercules is thought of the column;

Indeed which the more great island to the certain amount to have been as Libya and Asia s/he/it is brought.

Likewise therefore through her/it and through near others islands the journey then that with the advocates the supplies s/he/it was extending all the way towards the failure of the islands and the beginning of the bordering land," -- Calcidius

"[25a] with the true sea of the neighbour; Obviously with this within the mouth or Herculeas the columns the sea with the narrow certain with the shore, in which also now of the old port the steps may prepare, is divided from the suburb, but truly that sea of the immeasurable and priceless of the size the true sea.

Therefore in this with Atlantian most great island and the admirable force has stood out the all island of the kings and the neighbouring others of the maintaining and to the most great part of the suburb of the dominating," -- Calcidius

"[25b] accordingly the third of the borne universe, which Libya is said, all the way towards Egypt they have commanded, truly of Europe all the way towards Tyrrhenian sea. Indeed which the strength and the collected force and armed our, the o I solace, and your area, the more great this those the which tribes within the columns of Hercules stand to be assailed and s/he/it has gesticulated to assault.

Then therefore the manliness of your community beyond the all" -- Calcidius

"[25c] glory has shined forth, which on behalf of the common property of the all with the health and with the freedom with the despairing and abandoning with the fear the common protection with the all with the size of the intellect and with the military skills overtook it has, in order that through the most outer distinctions erupting at first s/he/it was routing the enemies of the human specie, s/he/it might pour hereafter, s/he/it might return you subjugate the freedom, might protect untouched in his/her/their and natural the freedom.

Nor thus much after s/he/it has happened, as with moving of the land and [illuuione]" -- Calcidius

"[25d] military splendid youth s/he/it might die your s/he/its of the day and of the night of the yoke and Atlantian whole island without the evidence of the more ahead existence s/he/it might be submerged, unless more lazy which that sea as other with the thick mud of the parting island and is had on top with the waves with the solid matter.

These are, O Socrates, old which Critias from Solon to himself the mattered and explained has told." -- Calcidius
Report Spam   Logged
cicero
Sr. Member
****
Posts: 93

The historical-critical approach to Atlantis


WWW
« Reply #29 on: November 16, 2007, 11:31:46 am »

It doesn't matter.  We know the Atlantic and Aegean cannot be logically equated to one another in Plato's Dialogues because the island of Atlantis which was at a minimum 2000 X 3000 stadia (345 miles X 230 miles) cannot fit there -especially -and this is the really important part -when the massive peninsula of prediluvian Hellas occupied this sea before it sank leaving behind the Cyclades and other islands as "bones of a wasted body".

Besides that, maps from around Solon's time show and mark the Atlantic Ocean on the other side of Gibraltar.  In fact the Greeks had already founded a colony in eastern Iberia by 500 B.C. proving that they had plied and explored the Western Med at that time.  

Horus, are you sure that the plains of Atlantis
had this size? What about errors typically made
with numbers? Could be that the plains had this size.
Could not be.

We do not know maps from Solon's times.
We can assume that Solon knew Gibraltar,
and this is almost certain.
But we have no maps, resp. map descritptions.
The first maps are from the scholars of Milet,
this is shortly after Solon's time.

It is important to know the geographical knowledge of Solon's time.
But wouldn't it be much more interesting to know the geographical
knowledgte of that egyptian writer, who wrote the Atlantis report
"9000 years" ago?

@Danaus:
Hm, you think you can find errors in the tradition of the greek text by
examining the Latin translation?
Have you found some errors? Can you demonstrate an example?
This would be interesting.
Report Spam   Logged

The historical-critical approach to Atlantis! http://www.atlantis-scout.de/
Pages: 1 [2] 3 4 5   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by EzPortal
Bookmark this site! | Upgrade This Forum
SMF For Free - Create your own Forum
Powered by SMF | SMF © 2016, Simple Machines
Privacy Policy