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Diffusion - Cultural similarities between Old and New Worlds - Atlantis ?

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Author Topic: Diffusion - Cultural similarities between Old and New Worlds - Atlantis ?  (Read 4788 times)
Mark of Australia
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« on: September 25, 2007, 02:09:31 pm »

The old chestnut - Are the apparent similarities between the ancient civilisations of Old and New Worlds caused by their cultures having a common origin or influence from Atlantis Huh

I don't think this has been specifically questioned in a thread yet .Only relevant posts with a bearing on this question have been dispersed throughout the forums various topics. I intend this thread to collect the various ideas and facts that are specific to this question. I intend my first article above as an example of what is appropriate .

  A kind of catalogue of the various similarities between Old and New world civs.
« Last Edit: September 25, 2007, 02:14:27 pm by Mark Ponta » Report Spam   Logged

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Mark of Australia
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« Reply #1 on: September 25, 2007, 02:13:45 pm »

Snake-bird gods fascinated both Aztecs and pharaohs

Mon 24 Sep 2007, 17:05 GMT
 
 By Robin Emmott

MONTERREY, Mexico, Sept 24 (Reuters Life!) - Ancient Mexicans and Egyptians who never met and lived centuries and thousands of miles apart both worshiped feathered-serpent deities, built pyramids and developed a 365-day calendar, a new exhibition shows.

Billed as the world's largest temporary archeological showcase, Mexican archeologists have brought treasures from ancient Egypt to display alongside the great indigenous civilizations of Mexico for the first time.

The exhibition, which boasts a five-tonne, 3,000-year-old sculpture of Egyptian pharaoh Ramses II and stone carvings from Mexican pyramid Chichen Itza, aims to show many of the similarities of two complex worlds both conquered by Europeans in invasions 1,500 years apart.

"There are huge cultural parallels between ancient Egypt and Mexico in religion, astronomy, architecture and the arts. They deserve to be appreciated together," said exhibition organizer Gina Ulloa, who spent almost three years preparing the 35,520 square-feet (3,300 meter-square) display.

The exhibition, which opened at the weekend in the northern Mexican city of Monterrey, shows how Mexican civilizations worshiped the feathered snake god Quetzalcoatl from about 1,200 BC to 1521, when the Spanish conquered the Aztecs.

From 3,000 BC onward Egyptians often portrayed their gods, including the goddess of the pharaohs Isis, in art and sculpture as serpents with wings or feathers.

"The feathered serpent and the serpent alongside a deity signifies the duality of human existence, at once in touch with water and earth, the serpent, and the heavens, the feathers of a bird," said Ulloa.

Egyptian sculptures at the exhibition -- flown to Mexico from ancient temples along the Nile and from museums in Cairo, Luxor and Alexandria -- show how Isis' son Horus was often represented with winged arms and accompanied by serpents.

Cleopatra, the last Egyptian queen before the Roman conquest of Egypt in 30 BC, saw herself as Isis and wore a gold serpent in her headpiece, Ulloa added.

UNCANNY SIMILARITIES

In the arts, Mexico's earliest civilization, the Olmecs, echo Egypt's finest sculptures. Olmec artists carved large man-jaguar warriors that are similar to the Egyptian sphinxes on display showing lions with the heads of gods or kings.

The seated statue of an Egyptian scribe carved between 2465 and 2323 BC shows stonework and attention to detail that parallels a seated stone sculpture of an Olmec lord.

There is no evidence the Olmecs and Egyptians ever met.

Shared traits run to architecture, with Egyptians building pyramids as royal tombs and the Mayans and Aztecs following suit with pyramids as places of sacrifice to the gods.

While there is no room for pyramids at the exhibition -- part of the Universal Forum of Cultures, an international cultural festival held in Barcelona in 2004 -- organizers say it is the first time many of pieces have left Egypt.

They include entire archways from Nile temples, a bracelet worn by Ramses II and sarcophagi used by the pharaohs.

Mexico has also brought together Aztec, Mayan and Olmec pieces from across the country.

"Any visitor to Egypt and Mexico might be disappointed by the gaps in the museums. The only thing Egypt declined to loan were the mummies," Ulloa said
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Gwen Parker
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« Reply #2 on: September 28, 2007, 02:51:14 am »

Great idea for a thread, Mark!  It woud be interesting if we could find some resemblance between Egyptian hieroglyphs and those of the Mayans, a few common symbols or something, but the writing looks nothing alike.  And yet, maybe the Egyptians didn't have any relation to the Mayans, but maybe some other older Mesoamerican tribe?  Where is George Erikson when you need him?  Smiley
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Bianca
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« Reply #3 on: September 30, 2007, 02:45:46 pm »



I agree with you, Gwen.

The first signs of the Maya culture go back to 1800 BCE.

Their precursors were the OLMECS.  Fortunately we know what the Olmecs looked like.
If we look at those huge carved heads, it's easy to see what race they belonged
to.  AFRICAN!  There you are!   The connection to Egypt!

Let's assume that the heads were carved to commemorate LEADERS (most likely, look at
the effort it took to carve them).  Then these 'leaders' could have come from far away in
boats/ships. 

We know  the Kingdom of Kush took over Egypt  a few times.  The people of Kush were/are
of the Negro race.

We know from Thor Heyerdahl's voyages transatlantic crossing can be accomplished even with
reed boats.
« Last Edit: September 30, 2007, 02:49:21 pm by Bianca2001 » Report Spam   Logged

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Bianca
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« Reply #4 on: September 30, 2007, 04:05:45 pm »




Ivan Van Sertima is another diffusionist. 



In THEY CAME BEFORE COLUMBUS, he also makes a case that "tribes" from Africa arrived in Central America by boat. 



The evidence includes Olmec stone sculptures and numerous Mayan carvings showing Negroid and Semitic features. 











Much of Van Sertima's evidence comes from the work of Alexander von Wuthenau, professor of Mexican art history at the University of the Americas in Mexico City.  His thirty-five years of work produced hundreds of examples of other racial groups in Mayan art.

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Bianca
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« Reply #5 on: September 30, 2007, 04:16:42 pm »







This topic was being discussed here:

http://atlantisonline.smfforfree2.com/index.php/topic,60.0.html


and was going really well until somebody muscled in with her monkey theory and a bunch
of pictures of those simians.  She also forcibly kept asserting that her knowledge that we
were wrong came from her (newly acquired) VAST knowledge of linguistics.

You know the type, a "female Blue Hue".....


Soooooooooo, everybody, as usual, left the thread completely. 

ANOTHER THREAD DERAILED. 

PLEASE DON'T LET IT HAPPEN TO THIS ONE!!!
« Last Edit: September 30, 2007, 04:17:26 pm by Bianca2001 » Report Spam   Logged

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Bianca
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« Reply #6 on: September 30, 2007, 04:35:02 pm »

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Bianca
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« Reply #7 on: September 30, 2007, 04:38:11 pm »







Oh, yes, one more:


Edgar Cayce also claimed that the "Lost Tribes of Israel" also reached the Americas.....
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Morrison
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« Reply #8 on: October 01, 2007, 03:34:37 am »

Specifically, some researchers have linked the Olmecs origin with the Mande Empire of West Africa.  Genetic evidence is supposedly lacking, however, it is changing all the time, and I am convinced that even geneticists are resistant of making such a link, aware of it's political ramifications.

The Mande tribe, for those who haven't heard of them:

The Mande peoples are credited with the founding of the largest ancient West African empires. The Mandé are closely related to both West Atlantic-speakers (such as the Fulani and Wolof) and Nilo-Saharan -speakers (such as the Songhay), in terms of culture and ethnicity. Some sources say that the Mandé are defined by culture and language rather than by ethnicity, since many different ethnic groups have adopted Mandé languages, names, and traditions.



Mandé
 
 
Total population
Between 10 and 20 million
 
Regions with significant populations
West Africa



Descended from ancient Central Saharan people, akin to the Bafour or Imraguen of Mauritania, the Mandé are an identifiable people spread throughout the western Sahel. They are known as having been among the first on the continent to produce woven textiles (by a process known as strip-weaving), and as the founders of the Ghana Empire and Mali Empire, as well as being responsible for the expansion of the Songhai Empire empire across West Africa. However, archaeological testimony also supports that they were among the first peoples on the continent, outside the Nile region and Ethiopia, to produce stone settlement civilizations. These were built on the rocky promontories of the Tichitt-Walata and Tagant cliffs of Mauritania where hundreds of stone masonry settlements, with clear street layouts, have been found. Some settlements had massive surrounding walls, while others were less fortified. In a deteriorating environment, where arable land and pasturage were at a premium, the population grew and relatively large-scale political organizations and, ultimately, military hierarchal aristocracies emerged. With a mixed farming economy—millet production combined with the rearing of livestock —this copper-based agro-pastoral society traded in jewelry and semi-precious stones from distant parts of the Sahara and Sahel. In the words of one archaeologist, these abandoned sites represent “a great wealth of rather spectacular prehistoric ruins” and “perhaps the most remarkable group of Neolithic settlements in the world” (Mauny 1971: 70).

Between 200 BC and 100 AD, the entire Sudan experienced significant dry episodes, which were part of the general drying trend that had been seriously underway since before 2000 BC. As the desert began to expand, the population headed South.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mand%C3%A9
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Morrison
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« Reply #9 on: October 01, 2007, 03:36:30 am »

I am actually a bit surprised that so many archaeologists claim that the Olmecs don't have any African conection, any fool can see that they do.   Smiley
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Bianca
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« Reply #10 on: October 01, 2007, 04:27:22 pm »






This "OLDCHESTNUT"  is even older than we think.  This article is dated 1972, 35 years ago:






                                                       Ancient America



By Blair A. Moffett



Part One



In a just published book, "Before Columbus" (Crown Publishers, Inc., N.Y. 1971; 224 pages, $6.50; see review article, "A Question of Maps," Sunrise August 19, 1967), Dr. Cyrus H. Gordon, head of the Department of Mediterranean Studies at Brandeis University, New York, has performed an important service to a growing number of scholars, both professional and amateur.

These are scholars whose own reflections and investigations tell them that there is much more to the testimony of the mute megalithic and related archaeological records of the "pre-Columbian" New World than has yet been revealed -- or for that matter been accepted even as a possibility by their more conservative and methodologically rigid colleagues.

Professor Gordon's main conclusion is that there must have flourished, at least as early as the Bronze Age, a great civilization of Sea People whose knowledge of astronomy and the arts of shipbuilding and navigation enabled them to ply all the oceans. They should not be considered, he feels, as tied to a particular land, because apparently they embraced several ethnic and linguistic elements from various areas. Not only did they devise our alphabet, but they were unquestionably associated with the Minoans and Phoenicians, as well as with the highly developed inhabitants of pre-Columbian America, thus playing a key role in the history of world civilization.

In support of this thesis, Dr. Gordon has assembled a mass of testimony from several sources:

countless Mesoamerican ceramic figurines that portray Far Eastern, African Negro, and Caucasian types, references by Greek authors of the classical period as well as in early American texts, examples of cultural transmissions between Old and New Worlds, archaic writing such as that on the Metcalf Stone, evidence from comparative linguistics, and recently examined maps and records of ancient mariners and sea captains.

Some specific findings among the many that he offers are (1) the appearance in Ecuador about five thousand years ago of Japanese pottery of the Jomon period; (2) a Roman sculptured head of about 200 A.D. excavated professionally in stratified remains in Mexico; (3) a hoard of Mediterranean coins discovered off the coast of Venezuela, some of which are of eighth century A.D. Arabia but most are Roman of early dating; and (4) the unearthing of a cache of Roman coins from 132-135 A.D. in Kentucky, an account of which is in preparation for publication. Some of Dr. Gordon's discoveries of language links between ancient Mesopotamia and Mesoamerica will be discussed in a subsequent article.
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Bianca
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« Reply #11 on: October 01, 2007, 04:34:45 pm »







Dr. Gordon acknowledges his debt to Charles H. Hapgood, whose Maps of the Ancient Sea Kings (See review article, "A Question of Maps," Sunrise, August 1967) concluded that at least 6,000 years B.C. there had existed a world-wide civilization some of whose most important members were expert navigators and sea kings. Hapgood offered startling evidence that some of these people must have lived before the most recent ice age had ended in the Northern Hemisphere and when Alaska was still connected with Siberia by the Pleistocene ice age "land bridge." Moreover, he shows that they were able to determine longitude, an art that was later forgotten until the mid-eighteenth century A.D.

Although he focuses mainly on Mediterranean-Mesoamerican prehistoric links, as his professional competence lies in those areas, Professor Gordon uses his discoveries to range much farther, believing that to restrict investigation to any one area is dangerous unless we have in view the total nature of the research problem we face, which is that of the existence of an ancient world-wide ecumene. He emphasizes that these transoceanic mariners came to the Americas from many places and during many periods, not only from Japan to the shores of Ecuador around 3000 B.C., but very possibly from China, Southeast Asia, and India via the Pacific.

While much of his data is new and he has brought together both new and old evidence in a fresh way, Dr. Gordon is only one of a long and honorable line of well-known as well as obscure protagonists of the startling ancientness of the New World.

Lecturing at Oslo in 1936, for example, the Norwegian scholar A.W.Brogger spoke of a period roughly 4,000 or 5,000 years ago as a golden age of deep sea navigation when all the world was known. In 1940, the American polar researcher and explorer, Vilhjalmur Stefansson, said the idea that "man of the Old World discovered the Americas from Brazil to Greenland" five thousand or more years ago is still only a theory, although "we can prove it likely" (Greenland, p. 26). Elsewhere in his books Stefansson described this early era as one during which Stone Age and Bronze Age inhabitants "swarmed the Atlantic." He wrote:

There are rock carvings in Norway to indicate that Norwegians were sailing the seas, and doubtless visiting Britain, contemporaneously with the New Stone Age sailors of Crete, who have been considered here as of from 4,000 to 10,000 B.C. The same navigators were, in that case, visiting the Arctic in the same period those of them, that is, who were not living within the Arctic Circle and visiting the Temperate Zone instead. (Great Adventures and Explorations, pp. 22-23.)

We may also mention Peter H. Buck's treatment of early Pacific voyages in his Vikings of the Pacific. (First published as Vikings of the Sunrise, 1938.)
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« Reply #12 on: October 01, 2007, 04:41:18 pm »








One of the earliest and most controversial investigators of prehistoric America was Ignatius Donnelly, a lawyer who served as a Minnesota Congressman from 1863 until 1870, and was described as "perhaps the most learned man ever to sit in the House." After researching the matter for years, Donnelly published his Atlantis, The Ante-Diluvian World in 1882. His thesis was that both ancient America and the Mediterranean, as well as the west coast of Europe, had received their early populations from a former continent which he named Atlantis. He devoted his book to a remarkable collation of archaeological, geological, linguistic, mythological, and other related findings. These, he believed, offered solid evidence for a mid-Atlantic continental land mass having existed as the seat of mighty and advanced peoples who gradually deserted it over the centuries, fleeing to east and west as portions of it sank beneath the waters. Finally, its remaining population perished in the submergence of the island of Poseidonis, in a day and a night 11,536 years ago as recounted by Plato in the Critias and the Timaeus.

Donnelly was perhaps the first trained, intelligent mind of our time exhaustively to research and bring together the major data available in his day which pointed to a myriad of features common to prehistoric and ancient inhabitants of both the Old and New Worlds.

Despite the novelty of his theme, and the later irresponsible claims for "lost continents" such as the Mu of James Churchward that have tended to discredit the historicity of Plato's references as well as the existence of formerly peopled lands in general, Donnelly's research has ever since formed a background for scientific argumentation and inquiry on the part of both opponents and supporters. As Louis A. Brennan said in 1959, we cannot dispose of the problem "by sweeping Donnelly's Atlantis exposition under the carpet."

Atlantis is not exactly a fiction; it is a reference in Plato. Just so was Troy a myth, and the whole Homeric narrative with it, until Heinrich Schhemann, with the simplicity of a believer in fairytales, dug it up, right where Homer said it was. (No Stone Unturned, p. 228.)


It is to be regretted that many later scholars have ignored or overlooked much of the solid scholarship in comparative linguistics and religion that is contained in Donnelly's book. He deserves far more credit than he has received for his pioneering work, now being given more up-to-date treatment by Hapgood, Gordon, and others in substantiation of the existence in very ancient times of a powerful and highly advanced global civilization.
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Bianca
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« Reply #13 on: October 01, 2007, 04:44:38 pm »








Speaking in 1969 at the meeting of the American Historical Association at Washington, D.C., Dr. Vincent H. Cassidy of the University of Ohio rightly reminded his professional colleagues that while Plato's Atlantis is, understandably, receiving much current attention, his "other continent" receives "studied neglect."

With this, Professor Gordon is in agreement -- "It is futile to dwell on the lost island of Atlantis and then to forget [Plato's] plain reference to the continent that seals off the Atlantic Ocean on the West" -- citing this land as being clearly America, and Plato's rather casual mention of it as simply indicative that its existence was well-known to the learned Greeks of his time.

But the Americas have a Pacific as well as an Atlantic coastline. Louis Brennan cites the discovery during the International Geophysical Year of a range of submerged mountain ridges extending 600 miles southwest from Peru to Easter Island, and observes that Easter Island is the easternmost of a series of islands extending in stepping-stone fashion fully to the Asian mainland.

He views as even more important the corollary finding of the Easter Island Rise, which sweeps northward from there through the Galapagos Islands to join the South and Central American continental coast and form a broad, far-reaching shelf from Ecuador to Mexico.

His conclusion is that, in the early epochs we are considering, the Pacific had sufficient islands and perhaps even larger land masses above its waters to have made navigation across it not only safe but attractive. Steady trade and contact between Pacific Asia and the west coast of the Americas apparently continued until the island chain was broken by the submergences of many of its links nearer to the western seaboard of the Americas.
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« Reply #14 on: October 01, 2007, 04:48:09 pm »








We have already noted the early Japanese contact with Ecuador's coastal peoples. Dr. Gordon includes references also of Chinese expeditions to North and Central America that took place in the twenty-third century B.C., if not before, and again in the fifth century A.D. The earlier account is contained in The Classic of Mountains and Seas, a record of world features said to have been compiled at the request of the Emperor Shun about 2250 B.C.

Both of these Chinese voyages to America have been expertly reconstructed by Henriette Mertz, (Pale Ink.) who shows the areas in North and Central America through which the Oriental visitors traveled, such as the Sand Dunes of Colorado (now a National Park) and that state's Black Gorge (Black Canyon of the Gunnison). They saw the great desert, and wrote of the Grand Canyon of Arizona in glowing, poetic terms. They admired the aspen forests and the redwoods, the unusual rivers and numerous animals, and described the bird resembling a large domestic fowl "with ratlike legs and claws like a tiger," having dark feathers but a white head -- obviously the bald eagle. The widespread use of corn and the prevalence in certain areas of the mulberry tree impressed them, but so did the La Brea Tar Pits in what is now the Los Angeles area, which they called the 'Sea of Varnish,' and the giant horse effigy at Sacaton in Arizona. All these and other features of this strange land were set down in some detail.

In the Mahabharata, one of the two Sanskrit epics of ancient India, mention is made of the visit of Arjuna, a prince of the Bharatas, to Patala, the "antipodes," and of his marriage there to the princess Ulupi, a daughter of one Kauravya, the king of the Nagas.

Commenting on this, H. P. Blavatsky wrote that Pundit Dayanand Saraswati, then the greatest Sanskrit and Puranic authority in India, had personally confirmed her view that Patala was America, and that the visit of Arjuna to that land from what was then India took place 5,000 years ago. (The Secret Doctrine, II, 214.)
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