Mahmoud Ineedajihad's Visit to Columbia University

[19Merlin69]

There is a current event that, for the moment, is really entertaining me.  Mahmoud Ineedajihad's (Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad) visit to the U.S. and the ensuing controversy about his public appearances.   On the one hand I am a proponent of free speech, but on the other - as our fore-fathers indicated - that speech is only protected if it is not designed to incite or cause harm.  So, having said that, I am left to laugh a little at those who would welcome him to a forum where they can "hear his side of the story" regarding commentary on topics such as the holocaust and human rights.  People actually think they're going to have an opportunity to "take him to task" and be victorious.   Silly people - that can only happen when the other side is really there to learn.  I am forced to wonder if the University would be as accommodating to the Grand Wizard of the KKK if he asked for an audience to discuss his desire to remove slavery history from text books, while at the same time calling for the destruction of all Africans; and funding efforts to do so...


I listened to the President of Columbia University (Lee Bollinger), where he is invited to speak, vow to use a planned question and answer session to challenge Ineedajihad's denial of the Holocaust, call to destroy Israel and Iran's pursuit of nuclear weapons.   For some reason he believes that his school is "rising above the fray" in an effort to genuinely educate Iran's President in the error of his ways.  Bollinger almost sounds convincing when he says that this, "...will not be a forum for the President to gain an audience for his message [of hate and intolerance].  We are simply continuing Columbia's long-standing tradition of serving as a major forum of robust debate."  Much of his faculty has rallied in support of his decision, as have many of the students; all of which are rumored to be educated adults who are competent to make such a decision.  Sadly, for so many of us in the country, Lee and his supporters have violated  Merl's rule #2:  "Believing something is true does not make it so."

Of course the University is going to give Iran's raving madman a forum to spread his vitriolic criticism of democracy, the western world in general, and again - suffer through his revision of Jewish Holocaust history.  We know that he's getting that opportunity because, HE'S GOING TO BE ALLOWED TO SPEAK!  Any assertion to the contrary is folly from the mouths of the insane.  He will have gained an audience, media coverage and credibility and will manage to deliver his message to those whom he is targeting; paid for by the American tax payer and consumer!  The really funny thing about this is, not only has he denied the Holocaust and called repeatedly for Israel's destruction, he has gone beyond words and worked hard to put his plan into action!  His support for Hezbollah, who's sole purpose IS THE DESTRUCTION OF ISRAEL AND THE WESTERN INFLUENCE in the Middle-East, is well documented and even advertised by his government.  The nuclear weapons claim isn't even worth litigating when the other issues are so clear-cut.

Mahmoud Ahmadinejad is not an unintelligent man and he will have bested Lee Bollinger and the supporting faculty & students of Columbia University; just by speaking.   The American government and the media outlets who cover the event will be greatly embarrassed by the event no matter how much evidence is brought to bear to counter his commentary.  Finally,  the unwitting public who will be exposed to his circus will have been dealt a blow to their (already diminishing) intellect having heard his rhetoric.  All it will take is one person to say, "Wow -- he might have a point..." and Mahmoud will have succeeded. 

I love this country - where else in the world could a rouge state leader come to ridicule the host, in public on their own soil, with the host's money and walk away with a smile?  Certainly not in Iran!  Come and get us Mahmoud; we deserve what you're about to do.  Lay a reef on ground zero for the "fallen victims" (as he puts it), while you're at it.  I know that you're referring to the hijackers and support crew of terrorists that managed to flee or dissolve into the background, but so many others don't.  Hell - that hardly matters in a country that insists on being the beacon of democracy, even when it's being infiltrated & infected intellectually, morally, financially and physically. 


Hopefully we're going to wake up sooner than we did the last time...  Whatever Hitler said, nobody took him seriously. They treated his raving lunacy as simply tasteless benign entertainment; mutterings of a madman. They found him darkly amusing. It took the incineration of six million Jews and the destruction of much of Europe to discover that, ultimately, the joke was on us.  In light of Columbia's invitation, it is fair to ask what, level of evil must the president of Iran perpetrate in order to incur a much-deserved boycott?

I'd hate to witness another repeat performance from our history that we could've, should've, would've - but didn't catch.

From the website: http://merlinsscience.0catch.com/

[Jade Hellene]

I agree that Columbia shouldn't have invited him to speak, but equating Ahmadinejad with Hitler is ridiculous.  He is a figurehead, the Mullahs control Iran, he doesn't, who cares what his views are? He's not even that popular in his own country. 

Even if he did control Iran, he would be no threat to Israel.  He's not even close to getting nuclear weapons (more Bush administration hype), his missiles can't even reach Israel, and Israel has the most powerful military in the region, outside of us. They would clean his clock if they really were worried about him, look, they just bombed Syria and Syria did nothing.

Oh, and Hitler was taken seriously far earlier than the discovery that he had killed 6 million Jews.  They actually took him seriously all along, which is why the Jews (like Aklbert Einstein) began fleeing Germany as soon as he came to power, and why the European countries didn't act when he began occupying the Rhineland (in 1936) and the Sudetanland (in 1938). France and England didn't act against him, not because they didn't take him seriously, but because they didn't want another war.

[19Merlin69]

As is typical for you and I, I disagree.  Mahmoud does far more that play a figurehead role and his desire for nuclear weapons is not imaginary or hyped.  If you look back, you'll see that I also agree that he is not as close as he says he is, but the desire to possess them is real.  Be that as it may, I didn't even bother to deal with the "potential nuclear risk" in my commentary - I limited it to actual events that are on record and can be easily researched.  Tieing your rebuttal to that topic really serves no purpose, and dismissing his activities based upon his inability to launch missiles into Israel ignores the facts at hand.  Like I said:  HE SPONSORS HEZBOLLAH and they DO LAUNCH MISSILES into Israel on a daily basis.

Your comprehension of what I clearly said wanes even further in your discussion of Hitler - check your history.  Hitler had been rounding up and killing the "undesirables" long before "THE FINAL SOLUTION" even began to play out and the extermination of his enemies wasn't particularly well known until we were able to infiltrate the ranks of his inner sanctum.  In Winston Churchill's diary, he said, "It would not be until later winter in 1943 that reports of his brutality to the Jewish people began to be reported with any clarity and the summer of 1944 proven.  The leaders of the Roosevelt and Stalin were no more surprised than I that the monster had sunk to such depths as a means to and end but we were shocked to learn that this had begun long prior to any signs of his impending defeat - this was part of his initial plans dating back to the 30's.  We were stunned and repulsed when that news surface at Nuremberg and even the Arab nations were forced by morality to turn their faces upward and question their faith in light of the evidence.  God, it seems, forgot the Jews for a time."

My wife had many a family member lost during that phase of our history, and we even have a pair of surviving aunts who lived (as Jews) in Germany up until they were snatched in 1945.  They, who lived within a day of Auschweitz, had never known of it and were completely stunned to find out that it had been in operation long before their arrival. 

Hitler was not taken seriously until it was too late, and that date was September 1, 1939.  What occurred after and the steps taken by the Allies to defeat him were too little - too late.

[Jade Hellene]

Like I said:  HE SPONSORS HEZBOLLAH and they DO LAUNCH MISSILES into Israel on a daily basis.

So, if they SPONSER HEZBOLLAH and DO LAUNCH MISSILES into Israel on a DAILY BASIS (assuming that today is also one of those days), what does it matter if Iran declares war on Israel or not?  Apparently, Israel will have missiles launched against them irregardless of whether there is an actual delcaration.

We have established that Iran is still many years away from developing a nuclear weapon, since you also didn't object to the actuality that he isn't the one really ruling Iran either, I assume we all now agree that Iran isn't quite the imminent threat that the corporate media would like you to believe it is.  Ahmerdinijad is a propagandist and a Holocaust denier, nothing more - annoying, but that's about it.

As for Hitler:

Your comprehension of what I clearly said wanes even further in your discussion of Hitler - check your history.

I know my history while you, in turn, seem to be in the business of rewriting it.  You originally said:

Whatever Hitler said, nobody took him seriously. They treated his raving lunacy as simply tasteless benign entertainment; mutterings of a madman. They found him darkly amusing. It took the incineration of six million Jews and the destruction of much of Europe to discover that, ultimately, the joke was on us.

Wrong
They may not have known how bad he was until the very end, but Europe, America and the Jews he persecuted before the Holocaust ALWAYS took him seriously. As I said, he persecuted the Jews in his very first year in power and absorbed the Rhineland, Sudetanland, Czechloslavakia and Austria all BEFORE World War II even began.

Again, it wasn't that they didn't take him seriously that caused them not to act, it was because Europe simply didn't want another war.

The only people who never took him seriously were the fools in the German government who thought they could control him by making him Chancellor.   

[Anassa]

You may be confusing hezbollah with hamas.
Lebanon-based Hezbollah hasn't fired any rockets into Israel since the war last year.
Palestinian Hamas, and also Islamic Jihad, continue to fire rockets into Israel.

[Baphomet]

I completely endorse Ahmerdinijad's appearance before Columbia University.  Repugnant as his views may be, too often Americans are trying to cow people into limiting free speech.

If his views are so crazy, what do the rest of us have to fear from them?

[Luke Hodiak]

Ahmadinejad 'petty, cruel dictator,' school president says

Story Highlights
NEW: Educator: Ahmadinejad doesn't have courage to answer questions

Iran's Mahmoud Ahmadinejad says world's religions have same basis

Iranian president tells AP that he doesn't think U.S. is preparing for war

Ahmadinejad also tells AP that Iran "will not attack any country"

Next Article in U.S. »


 Read  VIDEO
     
NEW YORK (CNN) -- Columbia University president Lee Bollinger excoriated Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad on Monday, going through a long list of documented actions and remarks by the firebrand Iranian leader and his government.

 


Protesters gather at Columbia University against plans for Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad to speak.

 1 of 2  "Mr. President, you exhibit all the signs of a petty and cruel dictator," Bollinger said to applause from many of the 600 people in the room for a speech from the Iranian leader.

He cited the Iranian government's "brutal crackdown" on dissidents, public executions, executions of minors, and other actions.

And he assailed Ahmadinejad's "denying" of the Holocaust as "ridiculous" and "dangerous propaganda." He called the Iranian leader either brazenly provocative "or astonishingly uneducated."

"The truth is that the Holocaust is the most documented event in human history," he said.

He said he doubted Ahmadinejad would show the intellectual courage to answer the questions before him.

Ahmadinejad responded quickly.

"We don't think it's necessary before the speech is given to come in with some series of claims."

He said Bollinger's comments included "insults" and false claims, and flew in the face of an environment that's supposed to let people speak their minds.

Earlier, in a question-and-answer videoconference with the National Press Club, Ahmadinejad said the Middle East can govern itself without interference from the United States and other Western nations.

Speaking from New York to the luncheon in Washington, Ahmadinejad said Iran wanted to see "an independent powerful Iraq ... which will benefit the entire region."

"We are two nations interconnected," he said of Iran and Iraq. "We are brothers and friends."

But he said the region could didn't need U.S. help.

"We oppose the way the U.S. government tries to manage the world. ... We propose more humane methods of establishing peace," he said during a question and answer session with the press club.

He also said all the world's religions have the same common ground, "justice and friendship."

The views of all religions must be respected and "we must all move hand in hand," Ahmadinejad said.

Earlier in an interview with The Associated Press, Ahmadinejad said he didn't think the United States was preparing for war against Iran.

"I believe that some of the talk in this regard arises first of all from anger. Secondly, it serves the electoral purposes domestically in this country. Third, it serves as a cover for policy failures over Iraq," he told the AP.

The Iranian president said his country would not attack Israel.

"Iran will not attack any country," the AP quoted Ahmadinejad as saying.

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Despite an outcry against Ahmadinejad that included New York tabloid headlines such as "The Evil Has Landed," John Coatsworth, acting dean of Columbia's School of International and Public Affairs, said it is important for Americans to hear from the Iranian leader.

"Iran is going to ... hold the key to peace in the Middle East. We have to deal with and negotiate with leaders like this however much we may disagree with their views," Coatsworth said on CNN's "American Morning."

As a world leader, Ahmadinejad "has a platform wherever he wishes to have one. What he doesn't have is a classroom, an opportunity to present his but defend them in the face of challenges and tough questions," Coatsworth said.  Watch how the university has been criticized for the visit »

Christine C. Quinn, speaker of the New York City Council, said Columbia should not be giving Ahmadinejad a platform. "All he will do on that stage ... is spew more hatred and more venom out there to the world," Quinn said.

Hamid Dabasi, a professor of Iranian studies at Columbia, called the whole forum "misguided."

Matteen Mokalla, a Columbia student of Iranian descent, said, "This is a great opportunity for us to directly question him and ask him and challenge him."

But Liat Shetret, an Israeli-American student, noted that students will not "directly" question Ahmadinejad. Instead, she said, students are only allowed to write their questions on cards, which others then will select to be read to him. "We're not necessarily engaging him in any sort of discussion," she said.

Ahmadinejad will give a speech lasting half an hour or more before taking any questions at all, school officials said.

The Iranian leader has made statements suggesting that Israel be politically "wiped off the map," though he insists that can be accomplished without violence. He has questioned the existence of the Holocaust and warned Europeans that they may pay a heavy price for support of Israel.

Ahmadinejad also has drawn fire for his insistence that Iran will defy international demands that it halt production of enriched uranium. Iran insists it is producing nuclear fuel for civilian power plants, but Washington accuses Tehran of trying to create a nuclear weapons program.

Also, the United States says Iranian explosives and weapons are making their way to Shiite Muslim militias in Iraq's sectarian conflict and have been used against U.S. troops in the 4-year-old war. U.S. commanders say they have captured Iranian agents involved in supplying those weapons to the militias, some of which have longstanding ties to the Islamic republic.

In an interview broadcast Sunday on CBS' "60 Minutes," Ahmadinejad denied U.S. accusations that Iranian weapons are being used against American troops in Iraq, saying, "Insecurity in Iraq is detrimental to our interests."

He said U.S. officials are blaming his country for problems unleashed by the American-led invasion of Iraq in 2003.

"American officials, wherever around the world that they encounter a problem which they fail to resolve, instead of accepting that, they prefer to accuse others," he said. "I'm very sorry that because of the wrong decisions taken by American officials, Iraqi people are being killed and also American soldiers."

He added, "If they accuse us 1,000 times, the truth will not change."

Ahmadinejad landed in New York on Sunday to attend the U.N. General Assembly session, which opens Monday. He is set to speak Tuesday at the United Nations.

Even before his arrival, he rankled New York officials by offering to "pay his respects" at the site of the World Trade Center, destroyed by al Qaeda's 2001 attacks.

Iran is ruled by a Shiite government hostile to the fundamentalist Sunni al Qaeda. But the United States calls Iran the world's top state sponsor of terrorism because of its support of the Lebanese Shiite militia Hezbollah and other militant groups.


Speaking to Iranian nationals Sunday in the U.S., Ahmadinejad said Iran "has fulfilled all its commitments" regarding the nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty, Iran's Islamic Republic News Agency reported.

Other nations, "despite their commitments and because of their selfish nature and monopolistic views," are not helping Iran enjoy the benefits of nuclear energy, the agency quoted him as saying. E-mail to a friend

Copyright 2007 CNN. All rights reserved.This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten, or redistributed. Associated Press contributed to this report.

[19Merlin69]

Jade -

As usual, you read a piece and ignore the rest.  Your ability to focus on a single issue, take it out of context, misconstrue its meaning and then rush to the absurd is incredible.

I have no idea of where you are coming from with your response - you didn't bother to read and comprehend what I wrote.  Your reply is all of the proof I need of that.

[19Merlin69]

You may be confusing hezbollah with hamas.
Lebanon-based Hezbollah hasn't fired any rockets into Israel since the war last year.
Palestinian Hamas, and also Islamic Jihad, continue to fire rockets into Israel.

Actually, no - I didn't confuse the two.  Hezbollah's "break in the action" has been almost entirely driven by the Lebanese reassertion of their own border, making it impossible for them [Hezbolla) to hit any point in Israel from a point outside of it.  Hamas received the bulk of their Qassam rockets since the end of the war through a Syrian intermediary linked to Hezbollah and ultimately Iran.  Defense reports from the EU and Britain tracked the movement with sattelites.  If that wasn't enough, Iran, Syria and Hezbollah are working out a new strategy:  Build, supply and fire longer range missiles that can be guided.  That's the difference between the Qassam rockets (short range, low payload and unguided) and the new Zilzals and Fatah-110 missiles; each have a large payload and can fly guided for 250 Km.  It's also well known that N. Korea is building SCUD-C and SCUD-D factories in Syria.  These are essentially reverse-engineered Rusiian SS-21 ballistic missiles.  The first 1 or 2 of those into Israel will have a chilling effect on diplomacy I'll bet.  Check out the stuff that the media doesn't regularlly report on at Defense News.com and Jane's Defence.com - I think you'd be surprised to find out how much is known that goes unreported in the Western Press.

[19Merlin69]

I completely endorse Ahmerdinijad's appearance before Columbia University.  Repugnant as his views may be, too often Americans are trying to cow people into limiting free speech.

Free speech has limits, and for anyone to assert that "all speech is protected" is absurd.  I, nor anyone else for that matter, has the right to do any of the following:

1.  Lie in public about anyone else.  That encompasses libel and slander.
2.  Give false or misleading statements, no matter how much they may believe it is true.
3.  Supply false testimony or bear witness to ficticious events.
4.  Mislead, mis-represent or miscontrue by virtue of enlisting the participation of others in events that they would otherwise avoid.

The U.S. Supreme court, the World court, and 15 European country's superior courts have all weighed in on the above 4 items and each have ruled against "free speech" protections when the violations exist.

Many of the courts ruled against those protections in light of the aforementioned violations for the same reason:  Each of the four are most often applied in order to incite.  The remaining countries refused protection because "Lying" is not a form of protected speech.  That a pretty simple interpretation, but it seems reasonable to me.

If his views are so crazy, what do the rest of us have to fear from them?

What we can, do or should fear is the handful of people who actually took something positive from the speech - and their later actions.

I stick by my earlier comment...  Would they have been as open to allow Hitler or the KKK express their fundamentally retarded views in a public forum?

[Jade Hellene]

Free speech has limits, and for anyone to assert that "all speech is protected" is absurd.  I, nor anyone else for that matter, has the right to do any of the following:

1.  Lie in public about anyone else.  That encompasses libel and slander.
2.  Give false or misleading statements, no matter how much they may believe it is true.
3.  Supply false testimony or bear witness to ficticious events.
4.  Mislead, mis-represent or miscontrue by virtue of enlisting the participation of others in events that they would otherwise avoid.

Yes, unfortunately for you, the threshold doesn't apply to foriegn "dignitaries" who are visiting the United States, as undignified as your Iranian friend may be.

[19Merlin69]

I cannot evene imagine why you would call him that - He's not my friend.  Take note that I'm the one who started the thread complaining about him being allowed to vomit his rhetorical nonsense "freely."  I support his (and every other) country's right to study physics - including their sovereign right to experiment with nuclear reactions.  I also support his right to protect his border from foreign invasion in any way he sees fit, within established rules.  However, I disagree with practically 100% of his actions of the past 5 years and the political actions of his country for the last 40.  There is a huge difference between agreeing with enforcement of a sovreign nation's rights and the way they actually do it.

To get back to the issue at hand though, I would like to point out that Ineedajihad DID manage to speak, make his point and ultimately achieve something far more important - sympathy.  As long as criticism of Lee Bollinger's tactics takes place in the media - Mahmoud wins.  It was a mistake to let him speak.