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Can anyone account for Plato's detailed descriptions of Atlantis & Athens?

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Author Topic: Can anyone account for Plato's detailed descriptions of Atlantis & Athens?  (Read 2337 times)
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senator Bam
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« Reply #15 on: August 16, 2015, 06:07:37 am »


One part reason why it gives such detailed details is because Atlantis city was/is real/true.  Atlantis has been found (Tiahuanaco).
The real Atlantis city was also a microcosm image/analogy, so its details were of interest. The Atlantis account says it was true history and not just allegory. It says it was good because it was true as well as also ideal.
Why do modern historians seek to know details of historical cultures/etc?

To many people criticise sources like Atlantis account, Herodotus, "Nennius", bible, etc without objectively looking to see if they are true or not. When we have found/proven they are true the "experts" actually dismiss/deny/evade/ignore/cover-up/"discredit" the evidence just for their artificial "criticism" reasons. Eg we found/proved "Arthur's" **9** battle sites yet they still claim "Nennius" just compiled a composite list from various sources. We found Atlantis city and they still claim Atlantis is just allegory (despite the account saying exact opposite).

If the Atlantis account hadn't given such quality and quantity details it would be harder to prove/disprove. Only one site matches all. Incidentally, the Inca picture from the Coriancha also shows a number of the details in the Atlantis account including large rectangular plain with criss-crossing channels, 2 crops a year, concentric circles city, the sea (Titicaca), cliffs, the small hill (Akapana), Poseidon & Clito (or Clito's parents or twins), etc.
Yes it is like actual eye-witness.

We answered the "9000/8000/1000" years in our last few replies in the pinned thread in this same subforum above this thread/topic.
There is no or no major embellishing of the Account, it is true. And why do people keep claiming it is all allegory but then insist the 9000/8000/1000 yrs is totally "literal"? The longer the time the less likely story to be so accurately preserved details, which is further evidence the time is not totally literal not evidence that the account is not true. Atlantis (and Athens) was contemporary with ancient history down to the 12th or 19th dynasty (the **** and tobacco in New Kingdom mummies, the south american fan palm in depictions of Toakkari sea peoples).

I don't agree that Atlantis is not any where else in Greek myth/legends. Atlantis is in lots of cultures histories/myths/legends, some we now know. I listed some in the 'narrowing down where Atlantis was/not' and 'Atlantis Tiahuanaco' threads/topics.

There are some similarities with biblical preflood world, though Atlantis is not the preflood world.
Tarshish-Kittim in bible seems to match Atlantis/Tiahuanaco.

Atlantis was not close to Athens (in space not time). You know that there are continental/tectonic/regional/global scale catastrophes/events like contiental shifts, crust displacements, etc. Accounts say Atlantis (or Scheria) was distant spot, farthest of men, no contacts with others, etc.
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« Reply #16 on: August 23, 2015, 02:57:33 pm »

Atlantis has been found (Tiahuanaco).

Dear Bam, apparently, the interpretation of Plato you are using is incorrect. Or perhaps, if you can read the same old Greek version of Plato that Nikas claims to possess and has translated, I dare say that both of you cannot be right! So which is it, is Atlantis in the Atlantic Ocean or in the Mediterranean Sea? Nikas claims he has found Atlantis, and is 100% certain. Are you willing to wager 101% for your claim? If I have to guess at which of you two is correct, I would wager 1001% that you are both 100% wrong. But, I favor you more, since, at least, you are in the Atlantic, although in the wrong Hemisphere, latitude wise, as far as the capital city goes.
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« Reply #17 on: August 23, 2015, 08:29:32 pm »

Atlantis has been found (Tiahuanaco).
Dear Bam, apparently, the interpretation of Plato you are using is incorrect. Or perhaps, if you can read the same old Greek version of Plato that Nikas claims to possess and has translated, I dare say that both of you cannot be right! So which is it, is Atlantis in the Atlantic Ocean or in the Mediterranean Sea? Nikas claims he has found Atlantis, and is 100% certain. Are you willing to wager 101% for your claim? If I have to guess at which of you two is correct, I would wager 1001% that you are both 100% wrong. But, I favor you more, since, at least, you are in the Atlantic, although in the wrong Hemisphere, latitude wise, as far as the capital city goes.

I will be more than happy to try reply in defense of my thesis (for which see 'narrowing down where atlantis was/not' and/or 'atlantis tiahuanaco') if i have the time and health etc. (As always, i waited all week and nothing, then when i am almost ready to go do other things i seriously need & want to i now suddenly have to reply.)

Sorry i didn't realise you posted same reply in this thread too. I don't like to post reduplication (waste e-space) but need to reply to this so i will post copy of reply here too.

Yes Atlantis was in the Atlantic, in the "real ocean" not in the Mediterranean smaller inner sea, as the Account says. The Atlas mountains are in farthest western North Africa. Some say the Atlantic pelagos was the one outer pelagos of Mediterranean.

Atlantis was "western" according to sources. The western hemisphere has more water. Atlantis was very large and therefore doesn't fit in other places. They invaded upto Tyrrhenia and Libya/Egypt indicating from west.
The southern hemisphere has more water. I searched all around North and South America and only one place in Americas matches (Peru) [and only one place in Peru].
See west vs east, and south vs north in my thread 'narrowing down where Atlantis was/not'.

If people can't post the Greek text in Roman alphabet that is not my fault. Most translations of last 2500 yrs agree on many details.

There are some things about Nikas' theory that got my interest. I am wondering if Gozo and Malta are analogous to Gadeira and Atlas/Atlantis. (Atlas is analogous to Andes/South America, Gades might be analogous to Mexico/North America. We found that the meanings of Tarshish-Kittim in Genesis 10 are definitely connected with Atlantis/America. Perhaps Tarshish & Kittim are Gadeira and Atlas?) See meanings of Tarshish & Kittim at http://www.christianityboard.com/topic/21830-table-of-70-nations-gen-10/ , with the addition of Kittim can also mean "westerners" according to one source seemingly.
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« Reply #18 on: August 23, 2015, 08:58:16 pm »

 Huh
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senator Bam
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« Reply #19 on: August 24, 2015, 04:54:46 am »

Thank-you Nikas. Can we just take one thing at a time because otherwise i get too overstressed (and hence i don't answer very well, like i see that some/alot of what i wrote below is not written/explained very well). I will answer them all now, but prefer any further discussion on any of these to be on just one thing at a time.

How do you know how big was Atlantis? give us details. Plato uses a unit of measurement which is STADIA/STADIO which we don't know how big was. it could have been from 50 meters to 200 meters which makes the island from 200 km up to 1,000 km. nothing more. Nowhere it says it was a continent. It says the continent that was next to it. opposite Africa, which is the western Europe. The guy that tells the story is located in Egypt, and the opposite continent is Europe.

# 1. The first one i will answer is "how do you know how big was Atlantis".

As i have posted in the section on "large island or small island" in the 'narrowing down where Atlantis was' thread/topic in this forum:

i. The Atlantis account says Atlantis was larger than Libya and Asia combined.
i(a). Some people claim it is "between" not "larger than", but the majority of translations of the last 2500 yrs agree with larger than. Herodotus said Europe was larger than Asia & Libya (though in another place he says abit different). Theopompus said Meropis was larger than Asia, Europe & Libya.
i(b). Some people claim "larger than" is just empire/sphere not the island, but the other details of the account clearly imply the "whole island" of Atlantis was large landmass.

ii. The Atlantis account says Atlantis had (high(est)) mountains (and rivers, and woodlands/forests).

iii. The Atlantis account says Atlantis had a large plain. (This plain matches in size etc the Atliplano.)
As far as i am aware he doesn't give any stadia size for the whole island, only for the Plain and the royal island capital city.

iv. The Atlantis account says Atlantis  had many species of animals including elephants.

v. The Atlantis account says Atlantis  had 10 kings regions.

vi. The Atlantis account says Atlantis  had a large population and army.

vii. The Atlantis account says Atlantis  was self-sufficient in most all things.

viii. "island" in ancient cultures like Egyptian, biblical, Greek could mean any of either : island, continent, peninsula, coastland/s, planet, the old world "world island", pangaea.
Aristotle seems to call continents surrounded by sea "islands".
[South America would have been more of an island before continental shift?]

ix "not far to the west of Europe ... memory of a larger island" Proclus.
"... seven islands ... and three others of great size ... a thousand stadia in area...." Proclus.
"a large island was swallowed up" Marcellinus.
"island equal in size to Libya or Asia" Tertullian.

x. Kirchir's spurious map.

xi. The continent Maurigosima (& king Peiru-un) of Chinese?
The 2 continents/landmasses/islands Kusa & Pushkara, or Vishnukranta of Indian?

Where does it say that? Is the Egyptian describing the empire. It says that they controlled the island and parts of the nearby continent and from next, Lybia (next to Malta), until Egypt, and from Europe until Tyrrhenia (next to Malta)


# 2. "where does it say [invaded up to Tyrrhenia & Libya/Egypt]? Is the Egyptian describing the empire."

The Atlantis account says that the Atlanteans controled outside the pillars/Mediterranean, and invaded/conquered/controlled inside the pillars/Mediterranean up to Tyrrhenia and Libya or Egypt.
Yes the Egyptian is describing an empire/sphere in this instance.
Your Greek translation "from next Libya to Egypt" and "from Europe to Tyrrhenia" if it is correct doesn't actually dis/prove anything (no offense meant) because that reading can still be seen to fit with the traditional reading &/or with our thesis anyway.
One of the Hebrew meanings for Kittim is "invaders" & "westerners".

not a single clue on ancient writing does point to Atlantis outside Mediterranean. None.

3. "not a single clue on ancient writing does point to Atlantis outside Mediterranean. None."

I would have to go through all my files and collate a list of all the many seeming possible references to Atlantis in Classical and other sources/cultures, but to just give a few:

i. the Atlantis account says Atlantis was before/facing/outside the Pillars/mouth; in the 'real ocean' and not in the inner sea; controlled outside the pillars and inside the pillars upto Tyrrhenia & Libya/Egypt.
The quote from your own translation says "outside they came from the sea of Atlas".
+ As we showed in reply on size of Atlantis above, Atlantis was a large island and can't fit in the Mediterranean.

ii. Some sources say that the Atlantic pelagos was the only one outer pelagos of the Mediterranean?

iii. Atlantis was in western (Atlantic) ocean/sea. (I can't find the Classical source/s, but i am sure i remember seeing at least one or two that said 'Western sea/ocean'.)

iv. If the pillars of Hercules/Melkarth are at Gibraltar/Gades/Tartessos/Huelva, then facing/opposite pillars can only be (south-)west). (Tartessos was outside the pillars in Herodotus. Tartessos seems to match Huelva, and there is Hercules name at Huelva.)

v. Atlantis was # days sail from coast of [west] Africa/'Libya'. - Diodorus Siculus.

vi. Hebrew Tarshish-Kittim meanings & descriptions clearly match Atlantis & America across Atlantic.
[Meanings of Kittim include "invaders, westerners".]

vii. the Atlantic has always been the Atlantic ocean as far as i know since Herodotus and Plato.

viii. Atlas mountains are in farthest west North Africa.

ix. Kirchir's spurious map.

x. Atlantis and Scheria/Phaeacia were said to be distant point in the Atlantic, remotest, unmixed with other mortals, etc.

xi Egyptian accounts of sea peoples say "from the ends of the world/earth", "great darkness", "9th bow/arc", "the isles and mainland of the outer circle of water".

xii. **** and tobacco in new kingdom mummies.
South American fan palm in Assyrian depictions of Toakkari sea peoples.
The statue of man on horse pointing [?south-]west with word/name cati/cates "this way" (Quechua) in Azores.

What does that mean? because it has more water it has to be Atlantis?

# 4. "what does that mean? because it has more water it has to be Atlantis?"

Well, Atlantis was larger than Asia &/or Libya, so it was a large landmass, plus Atlantis/Poseidon/'real ocean' are somewhat connected with ocean/water/sea.
In geopolitical of Haushofer & MacKinder (and as Flem-Ath pointed out):
 The southern hemisphere has majority/unity of ocean/sea/water .
The eastern hemisphere has majority of land.
The north-east quadrant has majority of land.
The land hemisphere is roughly centred on Atlantic.
The water hemisphere is roughly centred on Pacific ocean.
So we have:
n/land2, s/water1, w/water2, e/land1;
and,
ne/land1&2, sw/water1&2, nw/land2&water2, se/water1&land1;
plus,
Atlantic land, Pacific water.
So, which hemispehere/s and which quadrant best fits Atlantis land and water/ocean/sea (and direction) details/descriptions?
(Also, Hrozny gave pictures/descriptions of Indus Valley seals etc with 2 steps/feet & a boat.)

Critias(in Plato) explains that the real name of Atlantis is ATLAS which written in Etruscan (Sicilian language old european dialect) becames MALTA!!! Also, the extremity of the Island of Malta is called GADIRA and in Greek Melite (it means best honey in Latin) Critias explain that Greeks call Gadira EUMELON which means best honey.


# 5. Atlantis/Atlas/Atlantic name; Gadeira name.

Atlas/Atlantis: The Atlantis account says/implies that the names are Greek translations of Egyptian translations of Atlantean names. So the Atlas/Atlantis name may not necessarily have any cognate in the real place. As for having synonymous meaning, Atlas fits the Andes (near heaven) better than anywhere else. The Atlas mountains in far west N Africa are analogous/parallel/mirror position to Andes. The Atlas motif is prominent in Peruvian pictures (spade symbol).
[As we have already said, Gozo and Malta geographical (and names?) might even be analogous/parallel/mirror positions to Gadeira and Atlas/Atlantis??]
Can your Malta name be both Atlas name/menaing and Gadeira meaning? [Maybe name/mt Etna is similar to name/mt Atlas?]

Gadeira/Eumelon:
There are many possible matches for Gadeira/Gadira/Gades including: Cadira in Venezuela?, Kedarus (Sanchuniathon), Adirondacks (east USA), Agadir (nw Africa), Gades/Cadiz/Ceuta (sw Spain), el-Khadir "the green one", Hu Gadarn, Cati/Cates (Azores), Gadira (extremity Malta), Melite/Malta, Gozo?
Necho's fleet sailed from Gadeira to Ethiopia/India.
Gadeira in Atlantis is opposite Gades in Spain [i.e. Atlantis is south-west].
Gadeira can mean "enclosure/fortification/fortress/fort /sheep-fold, walled city" [or "fortune"? or "the green"?]; Eumelus/eumelos can mean "rich in sheep" or "good music" [or melon? or honey?].  There is walled 'stede citades' "seven cities" in n.e. Brazil?
[Malta has links with Tierra Dentro in sw Columbia (not too far from Peru).]

What sources. give us details. Plato never said west/westerns. He said Nison Gar Protu Stomatos. An Island before you reach the mouth (pillars of hercules). Atlantis is inside a mouth(Period!) So is not outside the Pillars, but inside the pillars, which at the time of Atlantis it had the shape of a mouth.

6. Western.

i. Atlantis account says before/facing/outside pillars [which can only be (south-)west]; invaded/controlled inside pillars up to Tyrrhenia and  Libya (implying west not east of Italy/Libya).

ii. Atlas mountains are in farthest west North Africa.

iii. One of more Classical sources say Atlantis in Western sea/ocean (i can't find it but am sure i saw it (i lost 15 years study notes in a crisis about 7 years ago)).

iv. "in the Atlantic sea, on the coast of Europe" - Marcellinus.
"not far to the west of Europe ... memory of a larger island" - Proclus.
Three large islands in the western sea/ocean (one is Poseidonis). - Proclus or another source i can't find.

v. Kittim meanings include "invaders", "westerners".

vi. western hemisphere has less land and more water than eastern.

vii. Amenti/Urani/Aaru/Pet/Tuat "land of setting sun" seems to match Atlantis.

viii. Azores statue pointed west.

ix. Atlantis as remnant of Golden/Saturnia/Chronian fits western. Isles of the Blest.

x. Protu/before & inside mouth/pillars can not be the same.
It also depends on what side/direction you see "before" as being; and depends on where you place the pillars &/or mouth. The pillars & mouth make more sense at Spain than at Sicily; and for "before" the west side makes more sense than the east side.
There were 12 pillars of Hercules, but all the details of the Atlantis account and of other sources like Herodotus imply that the Spain ones are the ones meant.

what does real ocean means? Plato Said Exothen ormithesan ektu Atlantiku Pelagos. (outside they came from the Sea of Atlas). He mentions the ocean later and he calls it Panpelagos. Pelagos in it self is a small, shallow, closed sea. The greek dixtionary explains that. bigger than Pelagos is a regular see, called thalatis/thalasa and then we have the ocean which in Plato's time was called Pan-pelagos (everywhere sea).

7. pelagos, & real ocean.

I really appreciate your own translation here. What you wrote on 'Atlantiku pelagos' seems right, and agrees with our thesis!

i. From the quote from your own translation i am now wondering if the "Atlantic sea/pelagos" / "the sea of Atlas" could also/alternatively refer to Lake Titicaca?

Just to give my usual old answers on "Atlantic sea/pelagos" as Atlantic ocean not Mediterreanean sea:

ii. According to some, the Atlantic pelagos was the only one outer pelagos of the Mediterranean.

iii. pelagos can mean open sea, and deep down in modern usage.
+ How come pelagos is used in pan-pelagos then, if it is only small/shallow/closed sea?
(Panpelagos recalls modern Panocean / Panthalassa.)


iv. As far as i understand/remember, the Atlantis account says/implies that Atlantis was not in the inner small Mediterranean sea, and was in the outer real ocean and/or in the Atlantic?
(Geopolitics also has similar view/idea of outer ocean/s and small indentations.)

v. before the continental shift the Atlantic Ocean would have been upto half the current distance/width/size (and more enclosed, and abit shallower).

vi. pelagos might be related to Peleg and "earth divided" of Genesis 10 & 11?


vii. 3 concentric water circles (pelagos, thalassa, panpelagos), does that sound familiar?

viii. Other sources mention Egyptian sin-wer ["great water circle"]; Egyptian wadj-wer "great green"; Hebrew "great sea"; "Western sea/ocean"; Chronian sea; Atlantic sea/ocean; "Ethiopian sea/ocean"; "Erythrean/red sea". (E.g. see Strabo, Herodotus, Spanuth.)

ix the account still mentions the real ocean / pan-pelagos. If the opposite continent was near/beyond Atlantis, then Atlantis fits better in outer ocean not in Mediterranean. I do not see that the opposite continent can be Europe, though the real ocean that the opposite continent surrounds could  be either side of it [Pacific and/or Atlantic in our scenario].


x. Bedrich Hrozny gave pictures from Indus valley seals etc showing2  feet/steps & a boat.
(Tarshish-)Kittim in bible is also prominently associated with ships/fleet/navy.

xi. "the external sea" - Proclus.
"a remote land in the middle of the ocean" - Timagenes.

the Atlas mountains disapeared when Atlantis went down. If there mountains today then those aren't the Atlantian mountains. furthermore, nowhere the writings of Plato did call the Mountains in Atlantis Atlas mountain.

8. Atlas mountains.

It is true that the Atlantis account doesn't actually call the highest mountains of Atlantis "Atlas", but the general evidence from all sources implies that they match. Diodorus Siculus seems to. Regardless, the Atlas montains in farthest west North Africa are analogous/mirror/parallel to Andes. The Andes are "close to heaven". The Atlas world pillar/tree motif is found in prominently in Peru more than anywhere else that i have seen (the spade symbol above head in Peru masks), and in some Peruvian/Andean pictures it is even rising from the concentric circles city. What more can people ask than practically the actual name written in pictures, combined with all the other strong/exact matches for the temple/palace, and city, and plain, and mountains, etc?
The Account says the mountains were high/highest (and on the sea side of the island). The Andes are described in sources as next/equal to Himalayas. Not many places in the world can match the mountains (and sea and plain and direction and size etc).


9. "the Atlas montains disappeared when Atlantis went down"

There are alot of assumptions of most people about Atlantis "sinking"/"submergence" as to what people assume it could and couldn't be.
There are not any much actual details in the account as to what did and didn't happen in the "sinking"/"submergence". All we know is that Atlantis was "swallowed up" in terrible quake/s and flood/s [and disappeared/vanished according to some sources], and that there was some "shoal / muddy sea". Atlantis appeared to have been swallowed up or "sunk" or "submerged", but people fail to see that this is just *appeared* and not any further exact specific witnessed account details as to what did/didn't happen.
How can mountains next in size to Himalayas have went down? and how is it that such high mountains haven't been found down under?
When one considers all the details of the Atlantis account (and any other historical sources/evidences), and all the historical/geographical possibilities, then one should be able to see that some "sinking/submergence" possibilities are or are not very possible. Atlantis sinking seems to be either continental shift or crust displacement or possibly one or two other possibilities. The large island did genuinely appear to have been swallowed up in the catastrophe, but in the catastrophe the mountains and city part of Atlanis large island was pushed/pulled up. Not many people consider Atlantis in Andes because they dismissed it because they just assume that Atlantis can't "sink" and be raised at same time.

# 10. One question from me:
What will it take to convince people? Every discovery i have made its always the same. No matter what stark evidences we have people don't see it. (Is my writing really that bad?) We never seem to be able to get anyone to state what one or number/combination of things that people would be convinced by (except unreasonible/impossible). As i said, we have stark matches for many details (the size of the temple/palace, the distance to the sea from city, the concentric circles city, the small hill [Akapana], the plain, the Atlas motif, the sea, the mountains, the bulls & sacrifice, the 3 crops a year, etc etc) and have strong confirmation from Peruvian sources (the Coricancha picture, the Atlas motif, the other pictures i posted of the concentric circles city, etc).
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« Reply #20 on: August 24, 2015, 11:22:36 am »

 Huh
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senator Bam
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« Reply #21 on: August 24, 2015, 09:06:13 pm »

there are two ways for me to prove you wrong. the long way and the short way. the short way is to prove to you that Atlantis was inside the pillars of Hercules. it doesn't mater where, as long as it is inside and not outside. If I do that, would you accept that your theory is wrong? So, the only thing I am going to do is prove that Atlantis was inside the pillars and not outside. that's the challenge. do you accept?  Roll Eyes

Thankyou Nikas.

I am in absolutely no doubt whatsoever that Atlantis city is Tiahuanaco because the matches are all stark beyond doubt (the hill [Akapana], the circles, the distance to sea, the cisterns, the size of the palace/temple, the 2 crops a year, the great plain, the mountains, the Atlas motif, etc).
I always seek the truth and i have cases of where i have had to accept i was wrong and other was right (even though it hurt my ego/pride), but i am positive this is not wrong. I may be wrong about some details, but the Atlantis city is certainly Tiahuanaco.

I accept any challenge (but with the note that depends on my time and health and situation). The shorter the better.

One thing at a time is good, but i think there are more major points first than the inside/outside pillars.
The inside/ouitside the pillars is only one thing and not the most important, and we can not base dis/proof all only on one not-most-important thing unless it is absolutely no doubt dis/proof.
My reading of the english versions of the Atlantis account (which i re-read earlier today) says outside not inside pillars/mouth/strait / Mediterranean, and that the pillars/mouth was near Gibraltar.
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« Reply #22 on: August 25, 2015, 03:33:45 pm »


Firstofall, go and read Plato, because you have no idea what he is talking about.  I just handed your ass on the plate…. I can’t talk to you seriously anymore. You’re ignorant on the subject.

[/quote]

Excellent, Nikas, and I will do precisely as you bid me. Plato will I read, and then relate it to you. The prelude is charming, and is already accepted by me---may I beg of you to proceed to the "strain," as I think you are full of "knowledge," and need to "dump" it where it belongs.
 
You know Nikas, I think you are right about me not knowing Plato very well, and who does? You don't for sure. But I do know you well enough, though. Just one look at the stuff you write, and it's obvious that it does not take much to realize that you are, at best, just an idiot, and a dumb one at that, if one can further discern the variation of idiocy. Do you really think that anyone believes that there are here, in this blog, serious, and professional searchers of Atlantis? You are just full of it. **** I mean, and anyone familiar with Plato can easily smell you out, even with a really bad cold. That is all about I can share with you, without really getting vulgar. Were it possible for you to understand Plato, I would begin to believe in miracles. There is no way possible for you to understand such fine thoughts. I suggest you go and battle it out with that other idiot that has illusions of winning debates, and talks about asses, too; he/she will give you your moneys worth. But beware, the ears on that "ass" are of the long type, like yours. Let us see who has the longest ones, you or he/she. Anyway, when you raise that trophy you are claiming, and we all can see your name in lights, and also on the front of every magazine and newspapers the world over, then you can hand me my ass on a plate. And seeing that you will be very wealthy from all that orichalcum, gold, and silver they will raise from the sea bottom, make it a gold plate, please. 
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« Reply #23 on: August 25, 2015, 11:04:41 pm »

there are two ways for me to prove you wrong. the long way and the short way. the short way is to prove to you that Atlantis was inside the pillars of Hercules. it doesn't mater where, as long as it is inside and not outside. If I do that, would you accept that your theory is wrong? So, the only thing I am going to do is prove that Atlantis was inside the pillars and not outside. that's the challenge. do you accept?  Roll Eyes

Thankyou Nikas.

I am in absolutely no doubt whatsoever that Atlantis city is Tiahuanaco because the matches are all stark beyond doubt (the hill [Akapana], the circles, the distance to sea, the cisterns, the size of the palace/temple, the 2 crops a year, the great plain, the mountains, the Atlas motif, etc).
I always seek the truth and i have cases of where i have had to accept i was wrong and other was right (even though it hurt my ego/pride), but i am positive this is not wrong. I may be wrong about some details, but the Atlantis city is certainly Tiahuanaco.

I accept any challenge (but with the note that depends on my time and health and situation). The shorter the better.

One thing at a time is good, but i think there are more major points first than the inside/outside pillars.
The inside/ouitside the pillars is only one thing and not the most important, and we can not base dis/proof all only on one not-most-important thing unless it is absolutely no doubt dis/proof.
My reading of the english versions of the Atlantis account (which i re-read earlier today) says outside not inside pillars/mouth/strait / Mediterranean, and that the pillars/mouth was near Gibraltar.



Bam, I would be very much inclined to accept your claim, rather than Nikas, for sure, I would, if these were the only two choices. You are, at least, rational and ask the correct questions when it comes to logical justifications. He, Nikas, on the other hand, is asking you to provide proof, or logical explanations for your thesis, whereas, he does not give any at all, just gibberish, expecting to fool the ignorant. I still think this Nikas is trying to pull an April's fool out of season, on this site. He certainly does not know Plato, nor do I think that he can read any better than a fourth grader. He certainly has no idea of what logic is. I do not think that he knows the Greek language any better than he does English, if at all. He definitely does not know where Malta got its name, originally. He shows how illiterate he is. Ask him to provide the Etruscan language dictionary that clearly states that Atlas, in Etruscan, means Malta. For that matter, ask him to show any Etruscan writings citing Atlas. Apparently he has no idea of ETRUSCAN history, or language to begin with. The Etruscans never ventured any lower than Naples, Italy. He tells us that Etruscan is an old Sicilian language, and that shows he does not even know his geography. The Maltese original language of 5,000 BC was old Sicilian, not the Etruscan. He must not be aware that Etruscan writings are next to impossible to find, except for some writings on a few memorial tombs still existent in central Italy. There is hardly any mention in history of any interaction between Etruria and Malta, except, perhaps through Phoenician traders. By the way, Malta derived its name from the Phoenicians, although the Greeks, later, also have their name for it, and which the Romans kept it the same in Latin. But also remember that Latin has a lot of Greek words in its vocabulary.

When the Phoenicians arrived to the Maltese islands, some believe that they may have found them largely uninhabited and used them as safe anchorage for their ships, so goes the name for it; Malat, or Maleth. It is a known fact that the Carthaginians -- who were themselves descendants of the Phoenicians -- later colonized Malta. It is not really clear what happened to the people of Malta (or who were they) who pre-dated the Phoenicians. Thereafter, the mighty Carthaginians were challenged by the warring Romans for domination over Sicily and Malta. Remember that the Romans fought the Etruscans and completely defeated them, and any remnant of them where incorporated in the Roman culture before Rome turned south and to Sicily and Malta. The Etruscans had nothing to do with Malta, let alone have a name for the three tiny specs of land in the waters south of the Sicilian coast. That is a fact. There is no need to further provide evidence to show how idiotic are Nikas' claims, as it is a moot point. Anyone that makes dumb statements like: "the basis of the truth of Atlantis is because it is written in dialogue format," deserves to be frowned upon. Also if you noted, he tells you that we don't know what Plato meant by the measurement of a Stadia, yet he claims that what he found ARE exactly the measurements given by Plato. What a clown this guy.

One cannot debate with idiots, and that is exactly what Nikas appears to be, in reality. Had he some really good justifications and logical arguments with some plausible outcome, then it would be different. But as it stands, as I see it, he is making you do work with justifying your thesis, which it is unnecessary, since he has nothing to offer you in return, except "bulls**t." His challenge to you is precisely what I mean. I would just tell him where to go, in a few words, as he will not understand anything complex and of "length." How long in meters is an ancient stadia? One has only to look that up, for the record. Just like anything else this idiot claims, and then one can see just how long his nose is by now, after all the lies he tells; a nose at least ten stadia long; Greek stadia, that is, which is slightly shorter than a Egyptian stadia, just to give him a sense of justice and shorten his nose a tad bit, for a couple of facts he got right! It's an Egyptian story, so use an Egyptian stadia, and it's 209 meters.

You will win the bet, hands down. But can you, Bam, take pleasure and satisfaction in beating a child still in swaddling clothes?
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« Reply #24 on: August 26, 2015, 12:20:30 am »

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Just one look at the stuff you write, and it's obvious that it does not take much to realize that you are, at best, just an idiot, and a dumb one at that, if one can further discern the variation of idiocy. Do you really think that anyone believes that there are here, in this blog, serious, and professional searchers of Atlantis? You are just full of it. ****


Anyone else need anymore proof that this poster resorts to  juvenile insults each time he begins losing debates?  He is right about one thing, the forum is filled with professional researchers. Unfortunately, he is not one of them, though. He is here, though, to spread his religious ideology and desperately loses composure each time he gets humiliated during debates. Sad, really.

Quote
One cannot debate with idiots, and that is exactly what Nikas appears to be, in reality.

Only to you. Nikas has long been a visitor to Atlantis forums and been a researcher in the field  He even had his own forum based on Atlantis once. Even if we might not share all his beliefs, we know him to be a serious and respected researcher on this subject.  Who are you? Just a bitter windbag who goes around insulting everyone each time he gets embarrassed in a debate.

You are simply a sad little man who believes the Bible and Plato have some correlation and run around insulting others when they don't share your strange beliefs. You are in dire need of some therapy, pal. I am telling you that for your own good. Sad
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« Reply #25 on: August 26, 2015, 05:38:16 pm »

 Huh
« Last Edit: September 13, 2015, 08:23:44 pm by nikas » Report Spam   Logged
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« Reply #26 on: August 26, 2015, 05:56:45 pm »

Hermocrates: i don't think you should use words like dumb, idiot, clown, child/swadling, bull, lies, gibberish, fool, ignornat, etc in refering to people and/or their theories. This is the same sort of thing i dislike about orthodox academics lyingly calling us/ours things like pseudo, nonsense, not know basics, etc. Nikas has still found something interesting there, and he has some good Greek translation points. At least Nikas is one of the only people to have replied to me on my thesis.

Others: i also think you have been abit unkind to Hermocrates too. I haven't seen Hermocrates mention anything much about the bible. (Besides which Atlantis is found in the bible as we have tried to show (Moses wrote long before Solon, in fact they found Deuteronomy in the kings/chronicles before Amasis 2).)
Sean Bam.
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« Reply #27 on: August 26, 2015, 08:47:00 pm »

Hermocrates: i don't think you should use words like dumb, idiot, clown, child/swadling, bull, lies, gibberish, fool, ignornat, etc in refering to people and/or their theories. This is the same sort of thing i dislike about orthodox academics lyingly calling us/ours things like pseudo, nonsense, not know basics, etc. Nikas has still found something interesting there, and he has some good Greek translation points. At least Nikas is one of the only people to have replied to me on my thesis.


Bam,
It is said; "give credit where due," and, "always tell the truth." I was only retaliating, in most cases. Also, it's always good to tell what you think. Like cures like! With certain people, after they wear out your patience, it just comes natural to address them in those terms, as they do not understand good manners, nor logic. Besides, it's criminal like, and totally insulting to anyone's intelligence, if one has any, when someone makes such an incredible claim, and expects to be taken seriously. I do not mean a claim to have found Atlantis, as that can be eventually verified, if it is true. But I'm referring to his claim that he, of all human beings, past and present, alone can understand and interpret, correctly, Plato's ancient Greek. What a fantastic claim! What of all those really great scholars that have given us Plato's translations/interpretations through the ages? Especially when we are told by real experts, that Plato, actually, is credited with creating and using some new terminology, to express his philosophical and novel ideas, for which until then the language had no terms to express them, and this was classified as a beginning of modern Greek, at that time. Ancient Greek had three major dialects. Anyway, Plato and other classic Athenian writers wrote in the Attic sub dialect of the Ionic dialect, one of the major three. in fact, all Classical Literature that survived is written in Attic Greek, this includes extant text of Plato and Aristotle. Ironic is it not? And what of Plato's own disciples? Were they just as stupid as the moderns in understanding their master's dialect and thoughts? What audacity, for someone to make such a claim, and require to be taken seriously, and not expect a few words of appropriate "praise" in return! But that is not the point, is it? The point is how to deal with such idiocy, or intentional pranking, whichever it may be, as it is childish either way.

Did you not note how this same Nikas, the one wanting respect and recognition for his claim, just brushed your claims aside? Did you not notice his hypocrisy in standards when assessing your claim? Did you notice his childish challenge to you? What else do we need to tell this person what we really think?

Now, do you really think that if someone, a serious scholar or/and adventurer, searching for Atlantis becomes 100% certain of this find, would be on the web, bragging and clamoring for recognition, while at the same time wanting secrecy for fear of plagiarism of his find? No way! It seems, as I noticed of Nikas' history of postings here, that he has been at this for about 5 years with his Malta claim. Now he claims he can't divulge anything, as it's a secret until his negotiations with the Maltese government officials has provided a deal for him.  What a crack of "dung", if you understand my slang. 

I wish you well with your thesis. But, at the same time,  I have to restate to you, in a polite manner, that I'm not convinced that you have located Atlantis, either. 
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« Reply #28 on: August 27, 2015, 05:03:03 pm »

But I'm referring to his claim that he, of all human beings, past and present, alone can understand and interpret, correctly, Plato's ancient Greek. What a fantastic claim! What of all those really great scholars that have given us Plato's translations/interpretations through the ages?

Yes that thought has occured to me too. But the problem is that there are cases of where original languages texts have long been misinterpreted/mistranslated/misunderstood, a case in example is the bible verses on the crucifiction week where the English translation of the Greek is inadequite/incorrect. (Moreover the reason why the NT was written in Greek seems to be because of its "complex" conveyance?) So how do we know for sure his is not right? From the bits he has posted they seem/feel right.
His translation(s) could possibly be wrong, they could well be right, but either way i am totally confident that our find is right.

The fact is that i have had the same problem with orthodox academics. The fact is they trash anyone who supposedly doesn't understand the original languages, linguistics, "basics", etc. Look at my "(King) Arthur's" 12 battles discovered posts/paper and see how the orthodox academics raised similar linguistics issues that i had to answer/address eg "castellum means fortlet not fort", ostium/aber can mean either mouth or confluence, etc. None of the critical points ended up dis/proving anything against our discovery/thesis, but it gets darn annoying/burdensome/bogged-down having to re-write everything and all the massive time and effort it takes. Orthodox academics/linguists think they are all-right "proper scholarship"/"science"/etc and others are just all-wrong "pseudo"/"fringe"/"nonsense"/etc, and they think that they can dis/prove thinks only on one or a few difficult/disputible things like linguistics. Same thing happened with Joseph in Egypt, they dismiss all the evidences just because of phonetics assertions.

Did you not note how this same Nikas, the one wanting respect and recognition for his claim, just brushed your claims aside? Did you not notice his hypocrisy in standards when assessing your claim?

Well, to be fair in the last 2-8 years practically everyone (including you) has and does mostly dismiss/ignore all my discoveries and evidences. The problem is its "all or nothing" and our papers are "never good enough", and orthodox academics/linguists have tons of established criticisms about linguistics, "suspect" sources ("textual criticism"), etc.

Now, do you really think that if someone, a serious scholar or/and adventurer, searching for Atlantis becomes 100% certain of this find, would be on the web, bragging and clamoring for recognition, while at the same time wanting secrecy for fear of plagiarism of his find?

Perhaps it is understandible? I half-wish i had not given away all of my discoveries for free since this corporatist/capitalist & "academic" western world and establishment is so mean and cruel.

But, at the same time,  I have to restate to you, in a polite manner, that I'm not convinced that you have located Atlantis, either. 

Well, what would convince you? I have already said/shown many times that we have stark matches for most all the details of the Account including: the hill [=Akapana], the concentric circles, the size of the palace/temple, the distance to the sea, the large plain (& ditch & channels), the Atlas pillar motif, the 2 crops a year, the [conduits], the bulls (&) sacrifice, the largeness of the whole island, the high mountains on sea side, the mid point of the island, the (violent) quakes, etc. Pick one.  (And what is your own theory?)

Atlantis in pictures:

This Peruvian/Andean mask has the Atlas pillar rising from the 2/3 circles city
http://atlantisonline.smfforfree2.com/index.php?topic=33831.msg258213#msg258213
http://atlantisonline.smfforfree2.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=33831.0;attach=281;image

This Peruvian/Andean picture has the 3 circles, twins?
http://atlantisonline.smfforfree2.com/index.php?topic=33831.msg258213#msg258213
http://atlantisonline.smfforfree2.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=33831.0;attach=282;image

This diagram/map of Tiahuanaco from Posnansky has
1/2 circle/s, the hill [Akapana], the palace/temple, canal/river?
http://atlantisonline.smfforfree2.com/index.php?topic=33831.msg258213#msg258213
http://atlantisonline.smfforfree2.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=33831.0;attach=284;image
http://atlantisonline.smfforfree2.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=33831.0;attach=287;image

This Peruvian [Pumapunku?] picture from Jim Allen's site has the circles city:
http://atlantisonline.smfforfree2.com/index.php?topic=33831.msg258214#msg258214
http://atlantisonline.smfforfree2.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=33831.0;attach=288;image

this Sillustani Stone inscription has concentric circles, cliff?
http://atlantisonline.smfforfree2.com/index.php?topic=33831.msg258214#msg258214
http://atlantisonline.smfforfree2.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=33831.0;attach=290;image


this Inca picture from the Coricancha picture has the
circles, plain & ditch & channels, Poseidon & Clito (or parents of Clito or twins), the hill [Akapana], cliff/s, sea [Titicaca], canal/river, 2 crops a year ["sun/stars & moon/clouds = summer and winter"], etc
http://atlantisonline.smfforfree2.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=33831.0;attach=277;image
http://atlantisonline.smfforfree2.com/index.php?topic=33831.msg258222#msg258222
http://f.tqn.com/y/archaeology/1/S/7/_/1/coricancha-altar.jpg
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-bjmO_QlWUWg/T7Hgo3qHuOI/AAAAAAAAADw/QAxP_NQvw3Q/s320/Altar+de+Coricancha.jpg
« Last Edit: August 27, 2015, 05:10:15 pm by senator Bam » Report Spam   Logged
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« Reply #29 on: August 28, 2015, 01:13:59 am »

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Renes, don't worry about him,

regards, Nikas

Thanks Nikas, I am not worried about him, mainly because he is another in a long line of religious blowhards, all about posturing and that's it.

Quote
Others: i also think you have been abit unkind to Hermocrates too. I haven't seen Hermocrates mention anything much about the bible. (Besides which Atlantis is found in the bible as we have tried to show (Moses wrote long before Solon, in fact they found Deuteronomy in the kings/chronicles before Amasis 2).)
Sean Bam.

Actually, Sean, he is actually Only interested in pointing out his theological beliefs. He doesn't even believe in Atlantis, is simply trying to get anyone he talks with here to say that Atlantis does not exist and that Plato was having "visions." I debated this windbag back in June in one of two threads. Here is one of them:

2nd Peter, Chapter 3, verses 5-8, Authorized King James Version

http://atlantisonline.smfforfree2.com/index.php/topic,33103.0.html

I wouldn't blame you for not wanting to read the whole thread, but here are some of his quotes in them (his quotes, not mine):

Quote
This I'm surmising from your last reply. You also seem to be someone that has no faith in the Bible on the basis of "faith." The Bible itself is not in question here, obviously. Your logical reasoning is very "corrupt" if you cannot fathom what I had related. You are still using two different "rules" for judging what is myth and what is not, when comparing Plato's mention of Atlantis and the Bible's stories. Remember that both Atlantis and any story in the Bible has a God as its beginning. Atlantis has Poseidon, and the Bible has Jehovah. Scientifically, if that is your premise for rejecting the Bible stories, and accepting the Atlantis story, reason is contrary to both, when it comes to "scientific" evidence. Therefore you are not being rational, but I would say that you are "preferential." You prefer Atlantis over the Bible stories.


You are quick to point out the fallacies of the Bible stories, and then you swallow the ones Plato dishes out. The saying that best describes your condition is that you, "Strain a gnat and then swallow a camel."  If you cannot believe the Bible, then you cannot believe in Atlantis. You cannot have your cake and eat it too. Therefore criticize if you must, and also tell us your opinion; that is all anyone here can do, but please be consistent and use the same ruler.

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