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Science will never find Atlantis

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Hermocrates
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« on: June 08, 2015, 12:08:03 pm »

Just as Socrates told us that he did not find the answers to truth/reality and understanding existence, by studying natural philosophy (natural science), so it is with Atlantis. The supposed, "Lost" Continent will never be found under the sea, no matter where one seeks it, in any part of the globe. Atlantis can only be found philosophically/religiously; it never sunk then. I mean this; only through logic and fully understanding Plato/Socrates and all the peculiar, intentional, irrational/rational, accounts written by Plato as regarding land topography, description and dimensions, climate, type of vegetation, mineral, and animal resources, infrastructures, engineering feats, political/military conditions and history of Atlantis/Athens, and also just a very brief statement depicting a world that had many other cultures and countries, besides Atlantis, Athens, and Egypt, etc. These, just to mention the major topics.  The "tale" is to be taken, as a whole, as truth or fiction, but not to piecemeal it as one wishes. However, to understand fully, one has to consider the abrupt ending, and missing remainder of the Critias, and also take into consideration the missing third dialogue, Hermocrates, and also the missing Philosopher dialogue from the incomplete trilogy (Sophist, Statesman...) Also to consider and give keen thought to those little, beneficial, "white lies" contained in the two dialogues, Timaeus, and Critias, although not very evident in these dialogues, just as white lies are also present but, explicitly, mentioned in the Republic.   
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Lisa Wolfe
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« Reply #1 on: June 11, 2015, 12:40:33 am »

Too bad we have never been able to locate the pillar in the Temple of Neith (in Sais, Egypt), then we would know for sure that Plato was speaking the truth!
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Hermocrates
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« Reply #2 on: June 12, 2015, 07:57:38 pm »

Too bad we have never been able to locate the pillar in the Temple of Neith (in Sais, Egypt), then we would know for sure that Plato was speaking the truth!


Something of that magnitude and importance to the Egyptians, would not only have been written about in the Temple of Neith, but also elsewhere in Egypt. Again, to know if Plato spoke the truth is only a matter of logic and reason.
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parta
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« Reply #3 on: September 07, 2015, 09:22:50 am »


at sgem2011 the national geological institute of a european union country announced that they had found atlantis. since sgem is not an event that is written about this information was known only to geologists until archaeologists were guided to gadiera and the pen of geryon. archaeologists are however labeling the region "garden of eden" rather than atlantis. it is a shame this type of information doesn't get out to the public until at least 10 years after the fact but its best to be absolutely sure i guess.

atlantis hunters should probably have noted where the first ever mention of the pillars of heracles places them. after that atlantis leaps out a satellite image, soil map and archaeological record.

peace
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Hermocrates
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« Reply #4 on: September 09, 2015, 11:24:44 am »

Too bad we have never been able to locate the pillar in the Temple of Neith (in Sais, Egypt), then we would know for sure that Plato was speaking the truth!


Do you think that a single pillar, or an even an entire temple could recount the whole story of Atlantis, especially considering the entire discourse given by Timaeus?  And do you think, logically, that this information that the priests claimed to have been preserved by them all those thousands of years, and the explanation as to why that kind of information survives in Egypt, would so conveniently disappear in the times following Solon? Not to sound as if I'm contradicting myself, but Plato was speaking the truth. That is, a truth it was, if someone will only understand fully.
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Hermocrates
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« Reply #5 on: September 10, 2015, 11:05:08 am »


at sgem2011 the national geological institute of a european union country announced that they had found atlantis. since sgem is not an event that is written about this information was known only to geologists until archaeologists were guided to gadiera and the pen of geryon. archaeologists are however labeling the region "garden of eden" rather than atlantis. it is a shame this type of information doesn't get out to the public until at least 10 years after the fact but its best to be absolutely sure i guess.

atlantis hunters should probably have noted where the first ever mention of the pillars of heracles places them. after that atlantis leaps out a satellite image, soil map and archaeological record.

peace

Peace you say? Why your news is news to all those here with their very own pet projects of their very own idea and location of Atlantis, which happens to differ, mostly. And in Jesus' own words, "It's war and division you bring to them, not peace." For sure, someone who will notice your post will very likely request proof from you and from those of the national geological institute "country" you are telling of to this forum. But I'm sure that if you are telling something that really happened, many here will be privy to it already, since this forum is a mine full of experts on Atlantis, and for sure they are up to date. For me, I welcome any truth as to the whereabouts of the Garden of Eden too, besides Atlantis, so that mankind can return back to our beginnings. But I'm afraid that the find of the garden of Eden is very difficult to prove as such, because it had even less details about its physical description and location pointers for anyone to, "scientifically" assess the truth about any claims of having found it. But, if anyone finds the tree of life, the tree of knowledge, and the Archangel with a flaming sword in hand barring the entrance into it, then perhaps people will take notice. But the eventual scientific proof of having found Eden is noticing God walking in the midst of the garden, in the cool of the day.

How did you find this site, and what motivated you towards these here neck of the "woods," if I may ask?
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parta
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« Reply #6 on: September 10, 2015, 12:50:21 pm »


Peace you say? Why your news is news to all those here with their very own pet projects of their very own idea and location of Atlantis, which happens to differ, mostly. And in Jesus' own words, "It's war and division you bring to them, not peace." For sure, someone who will notice your post will very likely request proof from you and from those of the national geological institute "country" you are telling of to this forum. But I'm sure that if you are telling something that really happened, many here will be privy to it already, since this forum is a mine full of experts on Atlantis, and for sure they are up to date. For me, I welcome any truth as to the whereabouts of the Garden of Eden too, besides Atlantis, so that mankind can return back to our beginnings. But I'm afraid that the find of the garden of Eden is very difficult to prove as such, because it had even less details about its physical description and location pointers for anyone to, "scientifically" assess the truth about any claims of having found it. But, if anyone finds the tree of life, the tree of knowledge, and the Archangel with a flaming sword in hand barring the entrance into it, then perhaps people will take notice. But the eventual scientific proof of having found Eden is noticing God walking in the midst of the garden, in the cool of the day.

How did you find this site, and what motivated you towards these here neck of the "woods," if I may ask?

peace comes when science says religeomythology wins. when everyone walks away happy.

what is the first text that mentions the pillars of heracles and where are they placed? can i hear from the experts?

the garden of eden is a kikkar. on the edge of the kikkar proper is the coffer that survived the first flood. the second flood saw the wood from the coffer used to make an ark. the coffer and kikkar survive because an excavation always does. these are the 2 varas of yima, atlantis and the pen of geryon, the abzu and gissag-kul of enki, the hidden circles and enclosure for protection of osiris-re the bahitra of visnu...etc etc.

sgem.org is a pretty big deal but i doubt very very much anyone here would even know someone who may have attended at anytime. its geology  so no coverage. if there is noone promoting this atlantis [ie there is no need for money] there is no coverage. if there is no coverage but money the work gets done. the announcement came in the first feature open lecture on the first day at sgem2011. the presenter was a senior geologist at the ngir in bucharest.

the university of belgrade held its first international workshop on the garden in 2013. it was attended by 16 universities from 7 countries.

how and why am i here? is this a hard forum to find or something? don't think so. am i promoting something for sale? no. am i a romanian nationalist? no i am canadian for 6 generations. do some people in the world want and deserve information. yes.
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Hermocrates
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« Reply #7 on: September 11, 2015, 02:07:13 pm »

You asked; "what is the first text that mentions the pillars of heracles and where are they placed? can i hear from the experts?"

I do not know about him being an expert that many here will accept, but I will provide you with a reference of one with not a mean reputation, Aristotle. Although there were many other previous mention as to the location of the Pillars of Heracles, but for the purpose at hand, Plato's Atlantis, here is what I can offer you.

The Pillars of Heracles were know to the Greeks, and therefore also to Plato, as the modern day location of Gibraltar. Aristotle, one of Plato's intimate disciples, and a pupil of the Academy for 20 years during Plato's lifetime, clearly, and without a doubt indicates, in his Meteorologica, that the pillars were this very location, the narrow mouth dividing the Med from the Atlantic. And in this work of Aristotle, one also can see the knowledge of geography that the Greeks of those times had, which also, clearly shows their specific knowledge of the outer ocean, the Atlantic.

But do me a favor, do not tell a certain "Nikas" on this site about it, as he will tell you that the Pillars of Heracles in the "Etruscan" dialect means "Pantelleria."
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parta
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« Reply #8 on: September 11, 2015, 04:28:36 pm »

The Pillars of Heracles were know to the Greeks, and therefore also to Plato, as the modern day location of Gibraltar. Aristotle, one of Plato's intimate disciples, and a pupil of the Academy for 20 years during Plato's lifetime, clearly, and without a doubt indicates, in his Meteorologica, that the pillars were this very location, the narrow mouth dividing the Med from the Atlantic. And in this work of Aristotle, one also can see the knowledge of geography that the Greeks of those times had, which also, clearly shows their specific knowledge of the outer ocean, the Atlantic.


its not good for an expert or anyone with an interest not to know what the person who introduced the term "pillars of heracles" says. he was greek.

Pindar
Olympian 3
For Theron of Acragas Chariot Race 476 B. C.

I pray that I may be pleasing to the hospitable sons of Tyndareus and to Helen of the beautiful hair while I honor renowned Acragas by raising my song in praise of Theron's victory at Olympia, won by the choicest of horses with untiring feet. With this in view the Muse stood beside me when I found a shining new manner of fitting the splendid voice of the victory procession to the Dorian sandal. For the garlands twined around his hair exact from me this sacred debt, to blend harmoniously for the son of Aenesidamus the embroidered song of the lyre and the cry of the flutes with the arrangement of words, and Pisa bids me to raise my voice—Pisa, from which god-fated songs come often to men, for anyone over whose brow the strict Aetolian judge of the Greeks tosses up around his hair the gray-green adornment of olive leaves, fulfilling the ancient behests of Heracles; the olive which once the son of Amphitryon brought from the shady springs of the Danube, to be the most beautiful memorial of the Olympian contests, when he had persuaded the Hyperborean people, the servants of Apollo, with speech. With trustworthy intentions he was entreating them for a shady plant, to be shared by all men and to be a garland of excellence in the grove of Zeus which is hospitable to all. For already the altars had been consecrated to his father, and in mid-month the full evening's eye shone brightly, the Moon on her golden chariot, and he had established the consecrated trial of the great games along with the four years' festival beside the sacred banks of the Alpheus. But Pelops' sacred ground was not flourishing with beautiful trees in the valleys below the hill of Cronus. He saw that this garden, bare of trees, was exposed to the piercing rays of the sun. And so his spirit prompted him to travel to the land of the Danube, where the horse-driving daughter of Leto had received him when he came from the mountain-glens and deep, winding valleys of Arcadia; through the commands of Eurystheus, compulsion from his father urged him on the quest of the doe with the golden horns, which once Ta˙gete had inscribed as a sacred dedication to Artemis who sets things right. Pursuing that doe he had also seen that land beyond the cold blasts of Boreas; there he had stood and marvelled at the trees, and sweet desire for them possessed him, to plant them around the boundary-line of the horse-racing ground with its twelve courses. And now in his kindness he comes regularly to this festival of ours, together with the godlike twin sons of deep-waisted Leda. For Heracles, when he ascended to Olympus, assigned to them the ordering of the marvellous contest of men, the contest in excellence and in the driving of swift chariots. And so my spirit somehow urges me to say that glory has come to the Emmenidae and to Theron through the dispensation of the sons of Tyndareus with their fine horses, because that family comes to them with the most hospitable feasting-tables of any mortal men, observing the rites of the blessed gods with pious thoughts. If water is best and gold is the most honored of all possessions, so now Theron reaches the farthest point by his own native excellence; he touches the pillars of Heracles. Beyond that the wise cannot set foot; nor can the unskilled set foot beyond that. I will not pursue it; I would be a fool.


which means there should be a pelagos [of atlas] at the junction of the danube and sava at 10kbc.... and there was

11640bp

as plato says its a nesos mostly fashioned by nature but helped by the hand of man




the pelagos drained away and became unnavigatable

8000-6000bp

the coffer [or the pen of geryon at gadiera...vara of yima etc]...
https://www.google.com/maps/@45.015004,21.0232746,4703m/data=!3m1!1e3?hl=en



see how it blocked the advance of the early holocene sands




amazing accuracy




see how it cuts the outside wall of the kikkar [dotted arc]


recent archaeological discoveries can pintpoint who took this story [of yima and the vara] to egypt etc and when.

its all good fun and fascination if you have no agenda but the truth.

peace
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Hermocrates
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« Reply #9 on: September 12, 2015, 12:36:27 pm »

The Pillars of Heracles were know to the Greeks, and therefore also to Plato, as the modern day location of Gibraltar. Aristotle, one of Plato's intimate disciples, and a pupil of the Academy for 20 years during Plato's lifetime, clearly, and without a doubt indicates, in his Meteorologica, that the pillars were this very location, the narrow mouth dividing the Med from the Atlantic. And in this work of Aristotle, one also can see the knowledge of geography that the Greeks of those times had, which also, clearly shows their specific knowledge of the outer ocean, the Atlantic.


its not good for an expert or anyone with an interest not to know what the person who introduced the term "pillars of heracles" says. he was greek.

Pindar
Olympian 3
For Theron of Acragas Chariot Race 476 B. C.

I pray that I may be pleasing to the hospitable sons of Tyndareus and to Helen of the beautiful hair while I honor renowned Acragas by raising my song in praise of Theron's victory at Olympia, won by the choicest of horses with untiring feet. With this in view the Muse stood beside me when I found a shining new manner of fitting the splendid voice of the victory procession to the Dorian sandal. For the garlands twined around his hair exact from me this sacred debt, to blend harmoniously for the son of Aenesidamus the embroidered song of the lyre and the cry of the flutes with the arrangement of words, and Pisa bids me to raise my voice—Pisa, from which god-fated songs come often to men, for anyone over whose brow the strict Aetolian judge of the Greeks tosses up around his hair the gray-green adornment of olive leaves, fulfilling the ancient behests of Heracles; the olive which once the son of Amphitryon brought from the shady springs of the Danube, to be the most beautiful memorial of the Olympian contests, when he had persuaded the Hyperborean people, the servants of Apollo, with speech. With trustworthy intentions he was entreating them for a shady plant, to be shared by all men and to be a garland of excellence in the grove of Zeus which is hospitable to all. For already the altars had been consecrated to his father, and in mid-month the full evening's eye shone brightly, the Moon on her golden chariot, and he had established the consecrated trial of the great games along with the four years' festival beside the sacred banks of the Alpheus. But Pelops' sacred ground was not flourishing with beautiful trees in the valleys below the hill of Cronus. He saw that this garden, bare of trees, was exposed to the piercing rays of the sun. And so his spirit prompted him to travel to the land of the Danube, where the horse-driving daughter of Leto had received him when he came from the mountain-glens and deep, winding valleys of Arcadia; through the commands of Eurystheus, compulsion from his father urged him on the quest of the doe with the golden horns, which once Ta˙gete had inscribed as a sacred dedication to Artemis who sets things right. Pursuing that doe he had also seen that land beyond the cold blasts of Boreas; there he had stood and marvelled at the trees, and sweet desire for them possessed him, to plant them around the boundary-line of the horse-racing ground with its twelve courses. And now in his kindness he comes regularly to this festival of ours, together with the godlike twin sons of deep-waisted Leda. For Heracles, when he ascended to Olympus, assigned to them the ordering of the marvellous contest of men, the contest in excellence and in the driving of swift chariots. And so my spirit somehow urges me to say that glory has come to the Emmenidae and to Theron through the dispensation of the sons of Tyndareus with their fine horses, because that family comes to them with the most hospitable feasting-tables of any mortal men, observing the rites of the blessed gods with pious thoughts. If water is best and gold is the most honored of all possessions, so now Theron reaches the farthest point by his own native excellence; he touches the pillars of Heracles. Beyond that the wise cannot set foot; nor can the unskilled set foot beyond that. I will not pursue it; I would be a fool.


which means there should be a pelagos [of atlas] at the junction of the danube and sava at 10kbc.... and there was

11640bp

as plato says its a nesos mostly fashioned by nature but helped by the hand of man




the pelagos drained away and became unnavigatable

8000-6000bp

the coffer [or the pen of geryon at gadiera...vara of yima etc]...
https://www.google.com/maps/@45.015004,21.0232746,4703m/data=!3m1!1e3?hl=en



see how it blocked the advance of the early holocene sands




amazing accuracy




see how it cuts the outside wall of the kikkar [dotted arc]


recent archaeological discoveries can pintpoint who took this story [of yima and the vara] to egypt etc and when.

its all good fun and fascination if you have no agenda but the truth.

peace

So your true nature comes through. You must be an angler of man, that you put forth your hook and bait, intending to catch a mighty prey; an expert of Atlantis? Well, I'm afraid that if you think me a big fish, or caught by your well disguised deception, adorned with a cry for help, think again, as I used Aristotle's very own mouth to bite your hook. You will have to take up your admonishment directly with him, if Aristotle did not know, who or when, the very first mention of the pillars was uttered or written. But perhaps you are premature, as you cannot convince many of the real “experts” on this site, as to your idea of the location of the pillars.

By Zeus and Apollo, I have to admire your surpassing brevity on how you have proven my ignorance, though. And how has your rhetoric convinced me, only those gods know. Am I to understand that about which you speak? I'm glad to hear it, as Pindar was often quoted by Socrates, but how is your rhetoric relative to a “scientific” proof of Plato's Atlantis? Tell me, Para, are you serious, or in jest? What you say seems to be very strange, and not at all conditioned by many of Plato's words. Are you not a regular declaimer, and running riot in the argument? Perhaps I was too modest with you, which led to my being entangled by you in this apparent trap you laid down. You sound like some of the parrots that perch around this site. Shame on you, as you knew all along the answer to the question you posed. Don't you know that dishonesty is shameful and unjust? Law is the king of all, of mortals as well as immortals; makes might to the right, doing violence with the highest hand; as I infer from the deeds of Heracles, for without buying them, nor having received them freely, he carried off the oxen of Geryon. Are you, likewise, trying to carry away the palm? Neither here, nor in a court of justice could you state a case, or give a reason of proof, nor offer valiant counsel on another's behalf. What you have provided, of what value is it? Your ideas are exactly that which converts a man/woman of sense into a fool. Take my advice and refute no more, but do learn the philosophy of this business of Atlantis, and acquire the reputation of wisdom, and leave to others their pet projects and thesis of the whereabouts of our dear departed Atlantis. I am not surprised at my own incapacity to give a plausible account of my own. But to me, the wonder is rather that the poets of the past are no better at being the source for this subject, and everyone will notice that the poets are just a tribe of imitators, and these things are past their capacity, which they cannot adequately represent in truth, as they add deities, poetry, drama, speculations, and their vivid imagination, to turn and twist things for their fancy.

Surely you are not trying to sell another perspective and location for Atlantis, are you? Or are you just searching for past glory for that obscure region of your native roots?  But I'm afraid that if we continue with your argument and story, the Egyptian priests will have turned out to be just mere story tellers, and not at all blessed with prophetic powers, and truth. Nikas has already made the priests ignorant of Sicily and Malta, although they, according to his thesis, were fluent and knowing with the Etruscan language and civilization.

What do mean to teach us with your presentation of, yet, more Google images? In accordance with the wishes of this site, do you think that you have provided overwhelming proof and have great powers of persuasion over us? Where does your account stand in placement with some of the other more imaginative suppositions and outlandish claims? It seems that you are wanting us to believe that you too have claimed the price. Is this idea of yours an original one, or is there someone before you? When was the first scientific corroboration to Pindar's identification of the pillars as being in your neck of the woods? But I'm afraid that your reference, Pindar, may not really be a good witness for scientific purposes, but good only in appearance.

Pindar, who was he? Was he not just another poet that did not fare well with Plato and Socrates? Nevertheless, lose not hope for your cause, as hope cherishes the soul of him who lives in justice and holiness, and is the nurse of his age and the companion of his journey; hope which is mightiest to sway the restless sole of man. Hope is last to die!

Let the real exerts here make sport with you. Nikas perhaps, will cherish a round or two with you on the location of the pillars. He also claims to be an expert in Greek and many other languages, and he claims to be a scientist of sort, and he too uses Google images as backing evidence of his Atlantis. See his posts on his having found the pillars near Malta, in the Med.

Peace to you too, my friend!
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parta
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« Reply #10 on: September 12, 2015, 01:43:02 pm »

my family came to canada in 1789 from the choptank river in maryland usa where they had been for over 100 years. they left salisbury england when one of my ancestors was non-comedically roasted for being a good catholic. i have no roots in central europe even genetically.

as i said i am not selling anything. this information comes from the national geological body of a european union country not me. they are real scientists saying you are wrong. i am just a good listener.

i welcome conversations with any expert even if they are only self promoted. by profession i'm a marketing geologist but i have had much time and opportunity to broaden.

it seems you like to write and you obviously love the way you write so do something intelligent to benefit yourself.

peace
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Hermocrates
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« Reply #11 on: September 13, 2015, 06:28:14 pm »

my family came to canada in 1789 from the choptank river in maryland usa where they had been for over 100 years. they left salisbury england when one of my ancestors was non-comedically roasted for being a good catholic. i have no roots in central europe even genetically.

as i said i am not selling anything. this information comes from the national geological body of a european union country not me. they are real scientists saying you are wrong. i am just a good listener.

i welcome conversations with any expert even if they are only self promoted. by profession i'm a marketing geologist but i have had much time and opportunity to broaden.

it seems you like to write and you obviously love the way you write so do something intelligent to benefit yourself.

peace

You say you are a good listener, but your not. However, do you claim that you are also a good reader? I mean that you have now, twice made me the author of others' words; Aristotle and Plato. Don't be like Peter and deny me trice. I have not been proven wrong, as you say both times, as I was, and please open wide those eyes, referencing Aristotle's written work, and his geographic knowledge of the known world to the Greeks of his times. In fact, in the same work I referenced, Aristotle mentions the Danube and Hyperboria also, and the area that you are placing the pillars at. However, you must not be familiar with Aristotle's works, and apparently not even Plato's. If you had, you would have noticed my poor attempt at satire, and you would have guessed that what I wrote, mostly, are the words of Plato. As I was trying to convey to you that Plato was a very intelligent person, and very knowledgeable of history, geography, etc., etc., especially poetical literature. The very fact that the major poets of old, Hesiod, Homer, Solon, Pittacus, Bias, Simonides.......and of course, Pindar, of which I quoted to you a couple of his passages is very, very evident in Plato's writings.

Why do I mention this? Well, was not our ancient genius well versed with Pindar's works? He and others of his time had full access to Pindar's entire works, and unlike us that rely on a few fragments only, which is all that have survived for us, don't you think that they must have been more familiar with Pindar's ode that you cited?  But, if Plato and Aristotle tell us, clearly, that the pillars of Heracles are our modern day straights of Gibraltar, how do you contend with that? Especially when coming from Aristotle, who was a very precise scientific man, even if he had a few things wrong when it came to the cosmos, and some other subjects.  Your point, which you have gotten from, no doubt, the internet, perhaps something like this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pillars_of_Hercules, and on which you selected to use only a portion, the reference to Pindar, and for which you further selected one of his odes to make your case, is still not very reliable, as I said before, as proving the Pillars of Heracles to be around the mouth of the Danube's terminating point.  But still I fail to see where mythology is corroborating science, as you claim.

Anyway, besides the fact that Pindar is not the first source, as you claim, to mention the pillars of Heracles, Pindar was a difficult poet to understand. You must really understand his prose to derive any benefit from it for use here, and the discussions on Atlantis. Also, you must “broaden” your mind much further, and go “past” the pillars before you admonish Aristotle, Plato, and anyone here on this site who is a real expert. I'm not an expert by any means or might, although I rely on others' expertise to make the point I was making. Don't go around the obstacles, but be brave and powerful, again like Heracles, and smash through that mountain of ignorance that hovers over you and come to reason and truth. But do watch for falling rocks when you cross over to the Atlantic through those pillars. Watch your translations too. The Danube was not the Danube to Pindar, it's the Istrus.  And the only thing Pindar says about the Istrus, is as to where Heracles brought back the olive tree from. But keep in mind that the olive tree was a gift from Athena to the Athenians. See where, even today, there are olives commercially grown to assess Pindar's ode. Also, look for symbolism in his poems, such as the meaning of the olive tree, and its oil had to the Greeks; their use of olive branches/leaves to make garlands to place on winners of contests, especially those that the odes refer to, and also the anointing of the body with the oil of the olive fruit. And learn that the upper Danube was not known to the Greeks as to all its tract and origin. Most Greeks, as probably did Aristotle too, relied on Herodotus. Herodotus claimed that the origin of the Istrus was from the country of the Celts in the extreme west, surging in the current day location of the Pyrenees. There, logically, from the springs of the “Danube” Heracles brought back the Olive tree. Since he found himself around those neck of the woods, working on his tenth labor, which was to fetch the Cattle of Geryon of the far West and bring them to Eurystheus; this marked the westward extent of his travels.

 And to conclude, I will quote Socrates' own words on the matter, and you be a man about it, and come away from ignorance, and hear Socrates' last words, as he was about to die shortly thereafter:

“If this is the right moment for an imaginative description, dear Para, it will be worth your while to hear what it is really like upon the earth. I believe that the real earth, viewed from above, is supposed to look like one of these balls made of twelve pieces of skin...I believe that it is vast in size, and that we, who dwell between the river Phasis and the Pillars of Heracles inhabit only a minute portion of it, as we live around the sea like ants or frogs round a pond, and there are many other people inhabiting similar regions. There are many hollow places all round the earth, places of every shape and size, into which the waters have collected.....”

Now the River Phasis according to the same sources you are likely using is: The Rioni or Rion River (Georgian: რიონი Rioni, Greek: Φᾶσις Phasis) which is the main river of western Georgia. It originates in the Caucasus Mountains, in the region of Racha and flows west to the Black Sea, entering it north of the city of Poti (near ancient Phasis). The city of Kutaisi, once the ancient city of Colchis, lies on its banks. Therefore, when Socrates, an Athenian, and Greek, says that He and all Hellenes, and all others around the banks of the sea or a pond, such as the Med is often described, are between the river Phasis and the Pillars of Heracles, surely your proposition that the pillars are near the mouth of the Danube's terminating point, is totally contradictory to Plato's Atlantis tale, and logic. Just as your assumption and interpretation of Pindar's ode is wrong.

Therefore, it's best if you keep to geology, if that is truly your business, and leave poets and poems, and the interpretations of them, to those that are divinely inspired, as Socrates tells us. For you do not see that, Pindar, in concluding the ode, is praising Theron's abilities and charioteer skills to the max, and is referring to his natural ability, and his coming from such an illustrious family that has gone far in power and wealth, to go also far in victories at the games. And in this “far,” since Theron is a Sicilian Greek, and Sicily is west to the location of the games, Pindar quantifies just how far, and therefore he mentions and references reaching the Pillars of Heracles, also west of Greece and Sicily too, since those pillars were thought to be farthest anyone should venture, since the other side was, mainly, unknown and full of speculations as to what was there, and there were many myths about it, filled with monsters and perils galore. That is why Pindar, at the end of the ode, regards anyone wanting to venture further west of the pillars nothing but fools. And having Theron go further than the pillars, would no longer be a praise, but an insult, as Pindar considers Theron to be not only a superb athlete, but also of superb mind (wise). 

Do you see your own reference backfiring? You make an erroneous assumption that the first part of the ode is directly tied to the end, and the reference to the pillars. The Olive tree is tied to Heracles third labor, going after the Ceryneian Hind, and in lenghty pursuit through lands outside of Hellas, including the land of the Danube (Istrus) he encounteres both Artemis, Apollo's sister, and the hyperborians. Whereas, the Pillars of Heracles, were tied to his tenth labor, the cattle of Geryon, and also his 11th, the Apples of the Hesperides. On his tenth, Heracles had to go to the island of Erytheia in the far west (sometimes identified with the Hesperides), or with the island which forms the city of Cádiz) to get the Cattle. On the way there, he crossed the Libyan desert and became so frustrated at the heat that he shot an arrow at the Sun. The sun-god Helios "in admiration of his courage" gave Hercules the golden chariot Helios used to sail across the sea from west to east each night. Hercules rode the chariot to Erytheia; Hercules in the chariot was a favorite motif on black-figure pottery. Such a magical conveyance undercuts any literal geography for Erytheia, the "red island" of the sunset. With the 11th labor, we have Heracles and Atlas, and again the Hesperides of the far west.

But in the presence of the honored gods, those who gladly kept their oaths enjoy a life without tears, while the others undergo a toil that is unbearable to look at. Those who have persevered three times, on either side, to keep their souls free from all wrongdoing, follow Zeus' road to the end, to the tower of Cronus, where ocean breezes blow around the island of the blessed, and flowers of gold are blazing, some from splendid trees on land, while water nurtures others. With these wreaths and garlands of flowers they entwine their hands.

Yes, there are many marvels, and yet I suppose the speech of mortals beyond the true account can be deceptive, stories adorned with embroidered lies; and Grace, who fashions all gentle things for men, confers esteem and often contrives to make believable the unbelievable. But the days to come are the wisest witnesses. It is seemly for a man to speak well of the gods; for the blame is less that way. One has only to read Pindar's Pythian 4 ode, “For Arcesilas of Cyrene Chariot Race 462 B. C.” to see that no mention of the pillars of Heracles are there, although it is speaking of Jason and the Argonauts travel to that part of the world you place the pillars at, by the same Pindar, that you obviously do not understand.


I can see that anyone that is capable of tracing his origins that far back in time, with a little extra “expounding,” can easily reach far back enough to touch Atlantis, first-hand. I have faith in you, and that is why I have gone so far with your hook in my mouth, because it hooked me so “bad” that I had to work long and hard to get Plato and Aristotle off the hook. But to me, you resemble a certain bird-brain on this very site; birds of a feather flock together. Although I suspect that it may be the one and same bird.

Peace, and be sure to send back those red cows back to Geryon, where they belong; just look to the west and follow your nose as it's pointing. If you need further instructions from Pindar, try this: But Cheiron rescued him and carried out the destiny which had been fated by Zeus. And Peleus, having thwarted all-powerful fire, and the sharp claws of bold-plotting lions, and the edge of their terrible teeth, married one of the Nereids throned on high, and saw the fine circle of seats in which the lords of sky and sea were sitting, as they gave him gifts and revealed the future strength of his race. Beyond Gadeira towards the western darkness there is no passage; turn back the ship's sails again to the mainland of Europe, for it is impossible for me to tell the full story of the sons of Aeacus.
 
I leave you with a modern poem; one of my favorites. Perhaps you will recognize it, even if I changed a word or two...

Stairway To Atlantis:
There are people who are sure that all that glitters is gold, and they are buying a stairway to Atlantis. When they get there they know, if the details don't match, with words of their own they can get what they came for. Ooh ooh and they are buying a stairway to Atlantis. There's a sign on the walls that don't match, but they want to be sure, 'Cause you know sometimes words have two meanings. In an olive tree by the brook there's a songbird who sings, sometimes all of our thoughts are misgiven. Ooh, it makes me wonder, will we ever find it? Ooh, it makes me wonder. There's a feeling I get when I look to the west, that is where it must be, and my spirit is crying for leaving. In my thoughts I have seen those Rings of smoke through the trees, and the voices of those who standing high on Google are looking. Ooh, it makes me wonder, will we ever find it? Ooh, it really makes me wonder. And it's whispered that soon, If we all recall Plato's tunes then the piper will lead us to reason. And a new day will dawn for those who stand long, and when it is found, then the forests will echo with laughter. If there's a bustle in your hedgerow, don't be alarmed now, It's just a spring clean for the May queen. Yes, there are two paths you can go by, but in the long run there's still time to change the road you're on. And it makes me wonder. Have we found it? Your head is humming and it won't go, and in case you don't know, the piper's calling you to join him. Dear people, can you hear the wind blow, and did you know that our stairway lies on the whispering wind. And as we wind on down the road, our shadows taller than our soul. There walks another one, someone we all know, who shines white light and with Google wants to show how ev'rything still turns to Atlantis. And if we listen very hard the tunes will come to us at last. When all are one and one is all, and to be a rock and not to roll around the earth, then we have fund our a stairway to “heaven.”

Heaven in Etruscan "Sicilian" dialect equates to Atlantis, but you will not recognize that, unless, like me, you are an expert in the Etruscan "dialect," just as much as you are an expert on Pindar. But Perhaps, as I have twice suggested, seek out "Nikas" if you want a real expert to spar with; the pillars' location are his specialty, as he arrogantly claims, and he "sure" knows Etruscan. With this I have concluded embarrassing Aristotle and Plato, and myself too, of course.

With peace you left me, and with a peace of my mind I leave you. Happy hunting in the dream land of the Hyperboreans! And Aristotle sends his thoughts too! "From Pyrene (this is a mountain towards the west in Celtice) there flow the Istrus and the Tartessus. The later flows outside the Pillars, while the Istrus flows through all of Europe into the Euxine. Well we will have to forgive Aristotle for making the Danube that much longer, but seeing that he had a hard time seeing over the Alps from his perspective, anyone can make that kind of mistake, but not yours. Give me a break, whomever you are! Now I understand you. Great or small, never mind about that, take your Google images and place them in an appropriate place; and I'm assuming that you are, at least, that much intuitive enough to understand me, for a change. It's all about correct placement, but be sure to close the lid and flush it!
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parta
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« Reply #12 on: September 13, 2015, 06:48:31 pm »

why would i read all this? do you believe i can learn from it?

please tell all of us who wrote about the pillars of heracles before pindar. you say there was someone but you don't bother to tell us who. how can one learn from this?

its a poor intellect that doesn't follow the first best lead and until you prove otherwise pindar still owns this title.

ps i did say the junction of sava and danube [springs of ister]. that is the middle danube basin where was okeanos [pelagos of atlas]. i get the impression you think i mean the black sea area. you do know what a pelagos was at the time of plato i hope. no more wiki based scholarship please. if you can't use it as a reference in university it shouldn't be an acceptable source in any serious conversation.

pps herodotus also mentions the pillars of heracles up the danube but struggles with the story because he had no idea a pelagos had filled the midde danube basin [okeanos]. thats 2 sources.
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Hermocrates
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« Reply #13 on: September 14, 2015, 03:25:55 pm »

why would i read all this? do you believe i can learn from it?

please tell all of us who wrote about the pillars of heracles before pindar. you say there was someone but you don't bother to tell us who. how can one learn from this?

its a poor intellect that doesn't follow the first best lead and until you prove otherwise pindar still owns this title.

ps i did say the junction of sava and danube [springs of ister]. that is the middle danube basin where was okeanos [pelagos of atlas]. i get the impression you think i mean the black sea area. you do know what a pelagos was at the time of plato i hope. no more wiki based scholarship please. if you can't use it as a reference in university it shouldn't be an acceptable source in any serious conversation.

pps herodotus also mentions the pillars of heracles up the danube but struggles with the story because he had no idea a pelagos had filled the midde danube basin [okeanos]. thats 2 sources.

In "darkness" I found most here, and in darkness I leave you all. Plato's Atlantis in nowhere here, only fantasy. And how can Plato make those ambitious donkeys understand that their "long ears" does not make them belong to that better and nobler portion of their family, horses, especially when the donkeys are also deaf, dumb, and blind?  This site needs the Who's "Pinball Wizard" to play your game, and find Atlantis for you, as he does not hear any buzzes, bells" and "whistles, sees no lights flashing, and no "circles" either, but uses only his intuition and sense of smell. The Who will also tell you it's an "Eminence Front," and "I Can See for Miles." I see a lot of smoke on this site, but no fire. But in keeping with honesty, I have to admit that I did find traces of those bulls that were caught with nooses (logic) only, but only their "droppings." And that due to the great quantity and wide spread of this "fertilizer," I could not help "stepping" on it. Grasp the truth as a whole, and in the right way; you will then have no difficulty in apprehending the preceding remarks, and they will no longer appear strange to you. Seek out the others here of your kind, and measure who has the longest ones. I see, all too well, that there are no philosophers here, only kindergarten sophists and great braggers, mostly, save a few.

So long all you seekers and "experts," and like children, have fun in your playground of Atlantis. But, please, do be careful when the water starts to get over your heads in your search, as you are liable to drown in a sea of words.

In Latin "Etruscan" dialect I make my goodbyes to those that can understand it; veni, vidi, vinci......but only a lollipop, though. And this lollipop I leave here, as a winning "price" to you, the victor. Oh great and wonderful rival. The laws of song and the hurrying hours prevent me from telling a long story, especially since you will not read it, and I am drawn, by a magic charm on my heart, to touch on the new-moon festival. Nevertheless, although the deep salt sea holds you around the middle, strain against treacherous plots. We will be seen arriving in the light far above our enemies. But another man with another idea on the location of the Pillars, with an envious glance, broods in the darkness over an empty thought that falls to the ground. As for me, I know that whatever excellence ruling destiny gave me, time will creep forward and bring it to its appointed perfection. I will now retire to my observation post and watch you all Kick, Bite, and Bray, as you have done all along, long before I put in my two cents.
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parta
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« Reply #14 on: September 14, 2015, 07:10:28 pm »

of course i did read it. i was wondering why you thought i should. at the beginning you said pindar was not the first but failed to say who was. should i have read on because you are some wise sage who is to be listened to just because you are you?

for future reference if you say pindar was not the first then send people to wiki where it says pindar was the first you create problems for yourself and your credibility. not knowing that the pindar ode existed in the first place wasn't a great start. when someone actually doesn't know the first thing about a subject they fancy themselves an expert in it is heartbreaking to watch. i'm glad you've decided to take yourself off the air.

ps i usually require a cheque for one canadian dollar from my clients. i never cash them. save your lollipop for after school tomorrow but get your mommy to send me a cheque.
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