my family came to canada in 1789 from the choptank river in maryland usa where they had been for over 100 years. they left salisbury england when one of my ancestors was non-comedically roasted for being a good catholic. i have no roots in central europe even genetically.
as i said i am not selling anything. this information comes from the national geological body of a european union country not me. they are real scientists saying you are wrong. i am just a good listener.
i welcome conversations with any expert even if they are only self promoted. by profession i'm a marketing geologist but i have had much time and opportunity to broaden.
it seems you like to write and you obviously love the way you write so do something intelligent to benefit yourself.
peace
You say you are a good listener, but your not. However, do you claim that you are also a good reader? I mean that you have now, twice made me the author of others' words; Aristotle and Plato. Don't be like Peter and deny me trice. I have not been proven wrong, as you say both times, as I was, and please open wide those eyes, referencing Aristotle's written work, and his geographic knowledge of the known world to the Greeks of his times. In fact, in the same work I referenced, Aristotle mentions the Danube and Hyperboria also, and the area that you are placing the pillars at. However, you must not be familiar with Aristotle's works, and apparently not even Plato's. If you had, you would have noticed my poor attempt at satire, and you would have guessed that what I wrote, mostly, are the words of Plato. As I was trying to convey to you that Plato was a very intelligent person, and very knowledgeable of history, geography, etc., etc., especially poetical literature. The very fact that the major poets of old, Hesiod, Homer, Solon, Pittacus, Bias, Simonides.......and of course, Pindar, of which I quoted to you a couple of his passages is very, very evident in Plato's writings.
Why do I mention this? Well, was not our ancient genius well versed with Pindar's works? He and others of his time had full access to Pindar's entire works, and unlike us that rely on a few fragments only, which is all that have survived for us, don't you think that they must have been more familiar with Pindar's ode that you cited? But, if Plato and Aristotle tell us, clearly, that the pillars of Heracles are our modern day straights of Gibraltar, how do you contend with that? Especially when coming from Aristotle, who was a very precise scientific man, even if he had a few things wrong when it came to the cosmos, and some other subjects. Your point, which you have gotten from, no doubt, the internet, perhaps something like this:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pillars_of_Hercules, and on which you selected to use only a portion, the reference to Pindar, and for which you further selected one of his odes to make your case, is still not very reliable, as I said before, as proving the Pillars of Heracles to be around the mouth of the Danube's terminating point. But still I fail to see where mythology is corroborating science, as you claim.
Anyway, besides the fact that Pindar is not the first source, as you claim, to mention the pillars of Heracles, Pindar was a difficult poet to understand. You must really understand his prose to derive any benefit from it for use here, and the discussions on Atlantis. Also, you must “broaden” your mind much further, and go “past” the pillars before you admonish Aristotle, Plato, and anyone here on this site who is a real expert. I'm not an expert by any means or might, although I rely on others' expertise to make the point I was making. Don't go around the obstacles, but be brave and powerful, again like Heracles, and smash through that mountain of ignorance that hovers over you and come to reason and truth. But do watch for falling rocks when you cross over to the Atlantic through those pillars. Watch your translations too. The Danube was not the Danube to Pindar, it's the Istrus. And the only thing Pindar says about the Istrus, is as to where Heracles brought back the olive tree from. But keep in mind that the olive tree was a gift from Athena to the Athenians. See where, even today, there are olives commercially grown to assess Pindar's ode. Also, look for symbolism in his poems, such as the meaning of the olive tree, and its oil had to the Greeks; their use of olive branches/leaves to make garlands to place on winners of contests, especially those that the odes refer to, and also the anointing of the body with the oil of the olive fruit. And learn that the upper Danube was not known to the Greeks as to all its tract and origin. Most Greeks, as probably did Aristotle too, relied on Herodotus. Herodotus claimed that the origin of the Istrus was from the country of the Celts in the extreme west, surging in the current day location of the Pyrenees. There, logically, from the springs of the “Danube” Heracles brought back the Olive tree. Since he found himself around those neck of the woods, working on his tenth labor, which was to fetch the Cattle of Geryon of the far West and bring them to Eurystheus; this marked the westward extent of his travels.
And to conclude, I will quote Socrates' own words on the matter, and you be a man about it, and come away from ignorance, and hear Socrates' last words, as he was about to die shortly thereafter:
“If this is the right moment for an imaginative description, dear Para, it will be worth your while to hear what it is really like upon the earth. I believe that the real earth, viewed from above, is supposed to look like one of these balls made of twelve pieces of skin...I believe that it is vast in size, and that we, who dwell between the river Phasis and the Pillars of Heracles inhabit only a minute portion of it, as we live around the sea like ants or frogs round a pond, and there are many other people inhabiting similar regions. There are many hollow places all round the earth, places of every shape and size, into which the waters have collected.....”
Now the River Phasis according to the same sources you are likely using is: The Rioni or Rion River (Georgian: რიონი Rioni, Greek: Φᾶσις Phasis) which is the main river of western Georgia. It originates in the Caucasus Mountains, in the region of Racha and flows west to the Black Sea, entering it north of the city of Poti (near ancient Phasis). The city of Kutaisi, once the ancient city of Colchis, lies on its banks. Therefore, when Socrates, an Athenian, and Greek, says that He and all Hellenes, and all others around the banks of the sea or a pond, such as the Med is often described, are between the river Phasis and the Pillars of Heracles, surely your proposition that the pillars are near the mouth of the Danube's terminating point, is totally contradictory to Plato's Atlantis tale, and logic. Just as your assumption and interpretation of Pindar's ode is wrong.
Therefore, it's best if you keep to geology, if that is truly your business, and leave poets and poems, and the interpretations of them, to those that are divinely inspired, as Socrates tells us. For you do not see that, Pindar, in concluding the ode, is praising Theron's abilities and charioteer skills to the max, and is referring to his natural ability, and his coming from such an illustrious family that has gone far in power and wealth, to go also far in victories at the games. And in this “far,” since Theron is a Sicilian Greek, and Sicily is west to the location of the games, Pindar quantifies just how far, and therefore he mentions and references reaching the Pillars of Heracles, also west of Greece and Sicily too, since those pillars were thought to be farthest anyone should venture, since the other side was, mainly, unknown and full of speculations as to what was there, and there were many myths about it, filled with monsters and perils galore. That is why Pindar, at the end of the ode, regards anyone wanting to venture further west of the pillars nothing but fools. And having Theron go further than the pillars, would no longer be a praise, but an insult, as Pindar considers Theron to be not only a superb athlete, but also of superb mind (wise).
Do you see your own reference backfiring? You make an erroneous assumption that the first part of the ode is directly tied to the end, and the reference to the pillars. The Olive tree is tied to Heracles third labor, going after the Ceryneian Hind, and in lenghty pursuit through lands outside of Hellas, including the land of the Danube (Istrus) he encounteres both Artemis, Apollo's sister, and the hyperborians. Whereas, the Pillars of Heracles, were tied to his tenth labor, the cattle of Geryon, and also his 11th, the Apples of the Hesperides. On his tenth, Heracles had to go to the island of Erytheia in the far west (sometimes identified with the Hesperides), or with the island which forms the city of Cádiz) to get the Cattle. On the way there, he crossed the Libyan desert and became so frustrated at the heat that he shot an arrow at the Sun. The sun-god Helios "in admiration of his courage" gave Hercules the golden chariot Helios used to sail across the sea from west to east each night. Hercules rode the chariot to Erytheia; Hercules in the chariot was a favorite motif on black-figure pottery. Such a magical conveyance undercuts any literal geography for Erytheia, the "red island" of the sunset. With the 11th labor, we have Heracles and Atlas, and again the Hesperides of the far west.
But in the presence of the honored gods, those who gladly kept their oaths enjoy a life without tears, while the others undergo a toil that is unbearable to look at. Those who have persevered three times, on either side, to keep their souls free from all wrongdoing, follow Zeus' road to the end, to the tower of Cronus, where ocean breezes blow around the island of the blessed, and flowers of gold are blazing, some from splendid trees on land, while water nurtures others. With these wreaths and garlands of flowers they entwine their hands.
Yes, there are many marvels, and yet I suppose the speech of mortals beyond the true account can be deceptive, stories adorned with embroidered lies; and Grace, who fashions all gentle things for men, confers esteem and often contrives to make believable the unbelievable. But the days to come are the wisest witnesses. It is seemly for a man to speak well of the gods; for the blame is less that way. One has only to read Pindar's Pythian 4 ode, “For Arcesilas of Cyrene Chariot Race 462 B. C.” to see that no mention of the pillars of Heracles are there, although it is speaking of Jason and the Argonauts travel to that part of the world you place the pillars at, by the same Pindar, that you obviously do not understand.
I can see that anyone that is capable of tracing his origins that far back in time, with a little extra “expounding,” can easily reach far back enough to touch Atlantis, first-hand. I have faith in you, and that is why I have gone so far with your hook in my mouth, because it hooked me so “bad” that I had to work long and hard to get Plato and Aristotle off the hook. But to me, you resemble a certain bird-brain on this very site; birds of a feather flock together. Although I suspect that it may be the one and same bird.
Peace, and be sure to send back those red cows back to Geryon, where they belong; just look to the west and follow your nose as it's pointing. If you need further instructions from Pindar, try this: But Cheiron rescued him and carried out the destiny which had been fated by Zeus. And Peleus, having thwarted all-powerful fire, and the sharp claws of bold-plotting lions, and the edge of their terrible teeth, married one of the Nereids throned on high, and saw the fine circle of seats in which the lords of sky and sea were sitting, as they gave him gifts and revealed the future strength of his race. Beyond Gadeira towards the western darkness there is no passage; turn back the ship's sails again to the mainland of Europe, for it is impossible for me to tell the full story of the sons of Aeacus.
I leave you with a modern poem; one of my favorites. Perhaps you will recognize it, even if I changed a word or two...
Stairway To Atlantis:
There are people who are sure that all that glitters is gold, and they are buying a stairway to Atlantis. When they get there they know, if the details don't match, with words of their own they can get what they came for. Ooh ooh and they are buying a stairway to Atlantis. There's a sign on the walls that don't match, but they want to be sure, 'Cause you know sometimes words have two meanings. In an olive tree by the brook there's a songbird who sings, sometimes all of our thoughts are misgiven. Ooh, it makes me wonder, will we ever find it? Ooh, it makes me wonder. There's a feeling I get when I look to the west, that is where it must be, and my spirit is crying for leaving. In my thoughts I have seen those Rings of smoke through the trees, and the voices of those who standing high on Google are looking. Ooh, it makes me wonder, will we ever find it? Ooh, it really makes me wonder. And it's whispered that soon, If we all recall Plato's tunes then the piper will lead us to reason. And a new day will dawn for those who stand long, and when it is found, then the forests will echo with laughter. If there's a bustle in your hedgerow, don't be alarmed now, It's just a spring clean for the May queen. Yes, there are two paths you can go by, but in the long run there's still time to change the road you're on. And it makes me wonder. Have we found it? Your head is humming and it won't go, and in case you don't know, the piper's calling you to join him. Dear people, can you hear the wind blow, and did you know that our stairway lies on the whispering wind. And as we wind on down the road, our shadows taller than our soul. There walks another one, someone we all know, who shines white light and with Google wants to show how ev'rything still turns to Atlantis. And if we listen very hard the tunes will come to us at last. When all are one and one is all, and to be a rock and not to roll around the earth, then we have fund our a stairway to “heaven.”
Heaven in Etruscan "Sicilian" dialect equates to Atlantis, but you will not recognize that, unless, like me, you are an expert in the Etruscan "dialect," just as much as you are an expert on Pindar. But Perhaps, as I have twice suggested, seek out "Nikas" if you want a real expert to spar with; the pillars' location are his specialty, as he arrogantly claims, and he "sure" knows Etruscan. With this I have concluded embarrassing Aristotle and Plato, and myself too, of course.
With peace you left me, and with a peace of my mind I leave you. Happy hunting in the dream land of the Hyperboreans! And Aristotle sends his thoughts too! "From Pyrene (this is a mountain towards the west in Celtice) there flow the Istrus and the Tartessus. The later flows outside the Pillars, while the Istrus flows through all of Europe into the Euxine. Well we will have to forgive Aristotle for making the Danube that much longer, but seeing that he had a hard time seeing over the Alps from his perspective, anyone can make that kind of mistake, but not yours. Give me a break, whomever you are! Now I understand you. Great or small, never mind about that, take your Google images and place them in an appropriate place; and I'm assuming that you are, at least, that much intuitive enough to understand me, for a change. It's all about correct placement, but be sure to close the lid and flush it!
