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Lisa Wolfe
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Orichalcum
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January 26, 2015, 06:13:04 pm »
Orichalcum
Orichalcum or aurichalcum is a metal mentioned in several ancient writings, including a story of Atlantis in the Critias dialogue, recorded by Plato. According to Critias (460 – 403 BC), orichalcum was considered second only to gold in value, and was found and mined in many parts of Atlantis in ancient times. By the time of Critias, however, orichalcum was known only by name.
Orichalcum may have been one type of bronze or brass, or possibly some other metal alloy. In 2015, metal ingots were found in an ancient shipwreck in Gela (Sicily), which were made of an alloy primarily consisting of copper and zinc, i.e. a form of brass.[1]
In numismatics, orichalcum is the golden-colored bronze alloy used for the sestertius and dupondius coins. In many fictional pop culture contexts, such as novels and video games, orichalcum is the name given to a valuable ore that can be mined and crafted into powerful armor and weapons.
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Lisa Wolfe
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Re: Orichalcum
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Reply #1
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January 26, 2015, 06:15:47 pm »
Overview
The name derives from the Greek ὀρείχαλκος, oreikhalkos (from ὄρος, oros, mountain and χαλκός, chalkos, copper or bronze), meaning literally "mountain copper" or "copper mountain".
The Romans transliterated "orichalcum" as "aurichalcum," which was thought to literally mean "gold copper". It is known from the writings of Cicero that the metal they called orichalcum, while it resembled gold in colour, had a much lower value.[2]
Orichalcum has variously been held to be a gold/copper alloy, a copper-tin or copper-zinc brass, or a metal no longer known. However, in Vergil's Aeneid it was mentioned that the breastplate of Turnus was "stiff with gold and white orachalc".
In later years, "orichalcum" was used to describe the sulfide mineral chalcopyrite, and to describe brass. However, these usages are difficult to reconcile with the text of Critias,[3] because he states that the metal was "only a name" by his time, while brass and chalcopyrite continued to be very important through the time of Plato until today.
Joseph Needham notes that the 18th century Bishop Richard Watson, a professor of chemistry, wrote that there was an ancient idea that there were "two sorts of brass or orichalcum". Needham also suggests that the Greeks may not have known how orichalcum was made, and that they might even have had an imitation of the original.[4]
In 2015, a number of ingots believed to be orichalcum were discovered in a sunken vessel (in the coasts of Gela in Sicily), which has tentatively been dated as being 2600 years old. Analyzed with X-ray fluorescence by Dario Panetta, of TQ - Tecnologies for Quality, the 39 ingots turned out to be an alloy consisting of 75-80 percent copper, 15-20 percent zinc, and smaller percentages of nickel, lead and iron
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Lisa Wolfe
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Re: Orichalcum
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Reply #2
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January 26, 2015, 06:16:10 pm »
Ancient literature
Orichalcum is first mentioned in the 7th century BC by Hesiod, and in the Homeric hymn dedicated to Aphrodite, dated to the 630s.
According to the Critias by Plato, the three outer walls of the Temple to Poseidon and Cleito on Atlantis were clad respectively with brass, tin, and the third outer wall, which encompassed the whole citadel, "flashed with the red light of orichalcum". The interior walls, pillars and floors of the temple were completely covered in orichalcum, and the roof was variegated with gold, silver, and orichalcum. In the center of the temple stood a pillar of orichalcum, on which the laws of Poseidon and records of the first son princes of Poseidon were inscribed. (Crit. 116–119)
Orichalcum is also mentioned in the Antiquities of the Jews - Book VIII, sect. 88 by Josephus, who stated that the vessels in the Temple of Solomon were made of orichalcum (or a bronze that was like gold in beauty). Pliny the Elder points out that the metal had lost currency due to the mines being exhausted. Pseudo-Aristotle in De mirabilibus auscultationibus describes orichalcum as a shining metal obtained during the smelting of copper with the addition of "calmia" (zinc oxide), a kind of earth formerly found on the shores of the Black Sea
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Lisa Wolfe
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Re: Orichalcum
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Reply #3
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January 26, 2015, 06:16:45 pm »
Numismatics
A sestertius coin from the time of Caligula
In numismatics, the term "orichalcum" is used to refer to the golden-colored bronze alloy used for the sestertius and dupondius coins. It is considered more valuable than copper, of which the "as" coin was made.
Some scientists believe that orichalcum may also have been used for jewelry for poorer people, as it had a similar appearance to gold.
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Lisa Wolfe
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Re: Orichalcum
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Reply #4
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January 26, 2015, 06:17:16 pm »
In popular culture
Orichalcum is often mentioned in a number of high fantasy works and video games of fantasy theme, as one of the more valuable ores, along with fictional mithril. Notable examples include Exalted, Dungeons & Dragons, Shadowrun, Earthdawn, Star Ocean, Golden Sun, The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim, Guild Wars 2, Terraria, and Bravely Default.
Orichalcum is a power source in the adventure game Indiana Jones and the Fate of Atlantis. It is mentioned several times in various entries in the Final Fantasy videogame franchise as well as in Kingdom Hearts II, where it was used as the primary ore in forging the Ultima Weapon. In Kid Icarus: Uprising, Lord Dyntos tells Pit that his vehicle, the Great Sacred Treasure, is made of orichalcum.
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Re: Orichalcum
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Reply #5
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January 26, 2015, 06:18:07 pm »
Mysterious Ancient Metal Found In Ancient Shipwreck. Link To Atlantis?
January 11, 2015 by Alanna Ketler. 10 Comments.
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According to the legend, there was an 8th continent known as Atlantis. This mysterious continent was said to have sunk a long time ago and when it did it took all of its orichalum with it. Orichalum is a metal that is mentioned in several ancient writings including the story of Atlantis in the Critias dialogue, which was recorded by Plato around 360 BC. According to the dialogue, orichalcum was very valuable and was second only to gold in value.
Now a team of divers say they have recovered no less than 39 blocks of this precious metal from a shipwreck that is believed to have happened 2600 years ago. This ship was likely from somewhere in Greece or somewhere in Asia Minor and was carrying this metal to Gela in Southern Sicily, when it was then caught in a storm and sank to the bottom of the ocean about 300 meters from the port.
According to Sebastiano Tusa, of Sicily’s Sea Office, “Nothing similar has ever been found, we knew of orichalum from ancient texts and a few ornamental objects.” In the aforementioned Critias this metal was mined only on Atlantis and was used to completely cover the inside of Poseidon’s temple.
Many scholars today, agree orichalum is a brass-like alloy, made in antiquity by cementation. This process was reportedly achieved with a reaction to zinc ore, copper metal and charcoal in a crucible. The 39 ingots, which were found, were analyzed with X-Ray fluorescence by Dario Panetta, of Technologies For Quality and, sure enough, the metal turned out to be made with 75-80% copper, 15-20% zinc, and a small percentage of nickel, iron and lead.
Tusa also stated “The finding confirms that about a century after its foundation in 689 B.C., Gela grew to become a wealthy city with artisan workshops specialized in the production of prized artifacts.” He says this because the 39 ingots were destined to workshops in Gela and were used in very high quality decorations.
Tusa’s team of divers plans to excavate the entire shipwreck to shed some more light on the history of Sicily, and possibly, Atlantis.
http://www.collective-evolution.com/2015/01/11/mysterious-ancient-metal-found-in-ancient-shipwreck-link-to-atlantis/
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Hermocrates
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Re: Orichalcum
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Reply #6
on:
February 06, 2015, 12:16:11 pm »
Quote from: Lisa Wolfe on January 26, 2015, 06:15:47 pm
Overview
The name derives from the Greek ὀρείχαλκος, oreikhalkos (from ὄρος, oros, mountain and χαλκός, chalkos, copper or bronze), meaning literally "mountain copper" or "copper mountain".
The Romans transliterated "orichalcum" as "aurichalcum," which was thought to literally mean "gold copper". It is known from the writings of Cicero that the metal they called orichalcum, while it resembled gold in colour, had a much lower value.[2]
Orichalcum has variously been held to be a gold/copper alloy, a copper-tin or copper-zinc brass, or a metal no longer known. However, in Vergil's Aeneid it was mentioned that the breastplate of Turnus was "stiff with gold and white orachalc".
In later years, "orichalcum" was used to describe the sulfide mineral chalcopyrite, and to describe brass. However, these usages are difficult to reconcile with the text of Critias,[3] because he states that the metal was "only a name" by his time, while brass and chalcopyrite continued to be very important through the time of Plato until today.
Joseph Needham notes that the 18th century Bishop Richard Watson, a professor of chemistry, wrote that there was an ancient idea that there were "two sorts of brass or orichalcum". Needham also suggests that the Greeks may not have known how orichalcum was made, and that they might even have had an imitation of the original.[4]
In 2015, a number of ingots believed to be orichalcum were discovered in a sunken vessel (in the coasts of Gela in Sicily), which has tentatively been dated as being 2600 years old. Analyzed with X-ray fluorescence by Dario Panetta, of TQ - Tecnologies for Quality, the 39 ingots turned out to be an alloy consisting of 75-80 percent copper, 15-20 percent zinc, and smaller percentages of nickel, lead and iron
All these speculations are just fine; what is orichalcum? But we must also ask; why is it a key in finding Atlantis? Where is the "logic" as to why Plato would even mention it? Plato tells us that it was dug out of the earth. Therefore we must assume that, even though we are not specifically told any further metallurgic processes, it's not an alloy obtained by a human processes.
Where is the catch? Can we assume that it is/was a pure metal, needing only purification from other unwanted contaminants, just as gold and silver is subjected to when dug out from the earth? If we assume this, then the periodic table is missing orichalcum, and science needs to discover it. But this requires a further question. Do we know of any one pure substance that is so unique as to be only present in a specific place on earth, and found nowhere else? Another point to consider about this mysterious substance is that Plato specifically omitted to mention, by name, any of the other solid and fusile substances dug from the earth on the island; why? Also consider that the substance orichalcum, unlike gold or silver, was found in many parts of the island. This clearly alludes to the “fact” that it was abundant and plenty to go around, since it was also used liberally on the temple of Poseidon; more so than gold and silver. It was used on the walls, floors and pillars, besides the other places that gold and silver were also used on the temple, with the exception of the pinnacles; consider the size of the temple, one stadia by 1/2 stadia, and a proportionate height. That's a lot of walls, floors, and pillars. Consider all the other places that orilcalcum was said to have been used in the tale. Is not the value of gold and silver, mainly, based on the basis of rarity, now as then? Next, since Plato stated that it was second only to gold in value, how does orichalcum beat silver in value, which is, obviously, exceedingly more abundant than silver, as told by Plato? Consider further. If orichalcum was that valuable and abundant, and Atlantis was, as Plato tells, a great shipping empire, having business dealings even with the states within the pillars of Heracles, surely orichalcum, even if isolated as to being present only on the island continent of Atlantis, would have been an object of trade/payment, just like gold and silver. Therefore how come we still have no certain information on orichalcum? No one, to date, has found any trace of it, geologically, or historically as far as a valuable substance; whether pure or alloyed. And if it was an alloy after all, when has an alloy ever been more valuable to man than silver, unless of course, it is alloyed with much gold or silver its self? But an alloy containing much brass and/or copper being more valuable than silver? No way, now or then. But again, based on some descriptions as to where gold was used; the statues within the temple and their enormous sizes, one would think that gold was not so sparse either, not to mention silver. Perhaps we can surmise that Plato means only gold or silver plated? But he made that specific distinction about the use of ivory being wrought, but not the statues. And speaking about ivory? Was not ivory valuable to our ancients, as it is to us moderns? That was abundant too in the temple, it seems, as the interior roof was of ivory; but then again, Plato did say that Atlantis had lots of elephants too; so much for little old Santorini being the island of Atlantis.
So where is the catch, as I stated? Would a man of great logic and immense literary talent, our Plato, the great foundation of Western thought, expose himself to these kinds of questions from any of his many opponents and critics? I’m certain that Plato, if he really wanted to tell us a good story, whether to make a philosophical point, or to vaunt his dear Athens, would have given us something more credible. Either by using an existing myth and doctoring it a bit, or would have made one up that lends to itself less, much less, logical criticism, and at the same time, render the tale much more plausible and gullible, even to highly educated persons. To begin, we need to ask; would Plato have left something around that was not even finished, just as a starter?
No my dear comrades in search of Atlantis, Plato is to be taken very seriously. My gut feelings are that, every word that Plato wrote was very carefully and meticulously used in the construction of all his dialogues/works with a specific scope in mind. There is truth and purpose in everything he related to us. But, for our benefit and an ultimate intended good towards us, there are, at key points throughout, those little “white” lies, just as the “founders” of his Republic use. And to tell the "truth" myself, I do not think that anyone to date, scholar or profane, has hit upon the “real” purpose and scope. This last is easy to state but almost impossible to defend by me, because, not being a scholar, I would need a world more of indulgence from my audience than Timaeus or Critias received from Socrates.
But Socrates has already granted to me, Hermocrates, all the indulgence I will need, in order that I may provide myself with a new beginning, so as to not being compelled to say the same things over again; if you know what he meant!
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senator Bam
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Re: Orichalcum
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Reply #7
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February 06, 2015, 06:38:35 pm »
I wanted to comment on this topic before but between Lisa's great info and the great info in Atlantipedia orichalcum article there was not much i could add (excepting my own Tiahuanaco orichalc info). (Though i disagree with the Sicily find being Atlantean orichalc because too late date and wrong location etc.)
So there was a white orichalc too. So Atlantipedia saying can't be findrine because white is answered.
"Two golds" (Atlantipedia). "Two brasses/orichalcs" (Lisa). "Two [leads?/tins?]" (Bailey).
Maybe there were two of every metal or pairs like gold & silver, mercury & sulphur?
3 metals Gold, Silver, Oreichalc may parallel 3 metals brass, tin, oreichalc.
Quote from: Hermocrates on February 06, 2015, 12:16:11 pm
All these speculations are just fine; what is orichalcum? But we must also ask; why is it a key in finding Atlantis? Where is the "logic" as to why Plato would even mention it? Plato tells us that it was dug out of the earth. Therefore we must assume that, even though we are not specifically told any further metallurgic processes, it's not an alloy obtained by a human processes.
Where is the catch? Can we assume that it is/was a pure metal, needing only purification from other unwanted contaminants, just as gold and silver is subjected to when dug out from the earth? If we assume this, then the periodic table is missing orichalcum, and science needs to discover it. But this requires a further question. Do we know of any one pure substance that is so unique as to be only present in a specific place on earth, and found nowhere else? Another point to consider about this mysterious substance is that Plato specifically omitted to mention, by name, any of the other solid and fusile substances dug from the earth on the island; why? Also consider that the substance orichalcum, unlike gold or silver, was found in many parts of the island. This clearly alludes to the “fact” that it was abundant and plenty to go around, since it was also used liberally on the temple of Poseidon; more so than gold and silver. It was used on the walls, floors and pillars, besides the other places that gold and silver were also used on the temple, with the exception of the pinnacles; consider the size of the temple, one stadia by 1/2 stadia, and a proportionate height. That's a lot of walls, floors, and pillars. Consider all the other places that orilcalcum was said to have been used in the tale. Is not the value of gold and silver, mainly, based on the basis of rarity, now as then? Next, since Plato stated that it was second only to gold in value, how does orichalcum beat silver in value, which is, obviously, exceedingly more abundant than silver, as told by Plato? Consider further. If orichalcum was that valuable and abundant, and Atlantis was, as Plato tells, a great shipping empire, having business dealings even with the states within the pillars of Heracles, surely orichalcum, even if isolated as to being present only on the island continent of Atlantis, would have been an object of trade/payment, just like gold and silver. Therefore how come we still have no certain information on orichalcum? No one, to date, has found any trace of it, geologically, or historically as far as a valuable substance; whether pure or alloyed. And if it was an alloy after all, when has an alloy ever been more valuable to man than silver, unless of course, it is alloyed with much gold or silver its self? But an alloy containing much brass and/or copper being more valuable than silver? No way, now or then. But again, based on some descriptions as to where gold was used; the statues within the temple and their enormous sizes, one would think that gold was not so sparse either, not to mention silver. Perhaps we can surmise that Plato means only gold or silver plated? ....
Oreichalc is only one of a number of keys in finding Atlantis. Only a site/place that matches all the details of the Account (the great plain, mountains, in Atlantic, orichalc, concentric circles city, elephants, etc) can be Atlantis. [That site is Tiahuanaco/Peru/South America.]
Yes orichalc was a metal that was mined, but it was also smelted according to various accounts.
Orei-chalc can mean "gold or mountain + copper/bronze or belonging to heaven or gold".
Jesus feet in Revelation were oreichalc, probably like the Roman coin/s though. Gold is "pure", brass is "judgment".
The Andes is a world source of copper/tin/zinc, and had alot of gold (conquistadores, eldorado), and has orichalc-like metals/alloys (tumbaga "gold-copper"), brass/etc (Crespi collection), etc.
There are nail holes in blocks at Tiahuanaco/Pumapunku.
Everyone makes a big deal about the Sicily find but ignores Mattievich's Andean find mentioned in same newspaper article.
Compare Hittite metal amutum 40 times value of silver ("must be iron"?).
It is not true that no one has found any trace of it. The issue is people dispute and disagree and deny everything.
You ask alot of good/interesting questions, but please don't just assume Plato made it up, and don't just ask those questions without also objectively looking to see if the Account Atlantis is true history. You can't say no one has found it without reading/considering all our discovery evidences, and/or without proving it.
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Rennes-le-Château
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Re: Orichalcum
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Reply #8
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February 07, 2015, 01:52:09 am »
Which ancient account mentions white orichalcum? I heard it was only red.
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senator Bam
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Re: Orichalcum
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Reply #9
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February 07, 2015, 10:19:21 am »
Quote from: Rennes-le-Château on February 07, 2015, 01:52:09 am
Which ancient account mentions white orichalcum? I heard it was only red.
Lisa said in reply # 1 :
".... However, in Vergil's Aeneid it was mentioned that the breastplate of Turnus was "stiff with gold and white orachalc". ...."
She also said in the one titled "overview" that Needham said there was ancient idea that there was "2 types of brass or oreichalc" [I am not sure whether the correct is brass or oreichalc though?].
Atlantipedia oreichalc page says findrine is white, and that Sykes thought/said findrine is similar to oreichalc (though Atlantipedia disagrees with Sykes).
It may be that only the pseudarguros was white/silver though?
I had heard that oreichalc was ["reddish" "gleaming/sparkled like fire"] (rough memory only) too. (Red/gold/fire/sun are connected in ancient.)
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Re: Orichalcum
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Reply #10
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February 11, 2015, 02:22:39 pm »
Quote from: senator Bam on February 06, 2015, 06:38:35 pm
I wanted to comment on this topic before but between Lisa's great info and the great info in Atlantipedia orichalcum article there was not much i could add (excepting my own Tiahuanaco orichalc info). (Though i disagree with the Sicily find being Atlantean orichalc because too late date and wrong location etc.)
So there was a white orichalc too. So Atlantipedia saying can't be findrine because white is answered.
"Two golds" (Atlantipedia). "Two brasses/orichalcs" (Lisa). "Two [leads?/tins?]" (Bailey).
Maybe there were two of every metal or pairs like gold & silver, mercury & sulphur?
3 metals Gold, Silver, Oreichalc may parallel 3 metals brass, tin, oreichalc.
Quote from: Hermocrates on February 06, 2015, 12:16:11 pm
All these speculations are just fine; what is orichalcum? But we must also ask; why is it a key in finding Atlantis? Where is the "logic" as to why Plato would even mention it? Plato tells us that it was dug out of the earth. Therefore we must assume that, even though we are not specifically told any further metallurgic processes, it's not an alloy obtained by a human processes.
Where is the catch? Can we assume that it is/was a pure metal, needing only purification from other unwanted contaminants, just as gold and silver is subjected to when dug out from the earth? If we assume this, then the periodic table is missing orichalcum, and science needs to discover it. But this requires a further question. Do we know of any one pure substance that is so unique as to be only present in a specific place on earth, and found nowhere else? Another point to consider about this mysterious substance is that Plato specifically omitted to mention, by name, any of the other solid and fusile substances dug from the earth on the island; why? Also consider that the substance orichalcum, unlike gold or silver, was found in many parts of the island. This clearly alludes to the “fact” that it was abundant and plenty to go around, since it was also used liberally on the temple of Poseidon; more so than gold and silver. It was used on the walls, floors and pillars, besides the other places that gold and silver were also used on the temple, with the exception of the pinnacles; consider the size of the temple, one stadia by 1/2 stadia, and a proportionate height. That's a lot of walls, floors, and pillars. Consider all the other places that orilcalcum was said to have been used in the tale. Is not the value of gold and silver, mainly, based on the basis of rarity, now as then? Next, since Plato stated that it was second only to gold in value, how does orichalcum beat silver in value, which is, obviously, exceedingly more abundant than silver, as told by Plato? Consider further. If orichalcum was that valuable and abundant, and Atlantis was, as Plato tells, a great shipping empire, having business dealings even with the states within the pillars of Heracles, surely orichalcum, even if isolated as to being present only on the island continent of Atlantis, would have been an object of trade/payment, just like gold and silver. Therefore how come we still have no certain information on orichalcum? No one, to date, has found any trace of it, geologically, or historically as far as a valuable substance; whether pure or alloyed. And if it was an alloy after all, when has an alloy ever been more valuable to man than silver, unless of course, it is alloyed with much gold or silver its self? But an alloy containing much brass and/or copper being more valuable than silver? No way, now or then. But again, based on some descriptions as to where gold was used; the statues within the temple and their enormous sizes, one would think that gold was not so sparse either, not to mention silver. Perhaps we can surmise that Plato means only gold or silver plated? ....
Oreichalc is only one of a number of keys in finding Atlantis. Only a site/place that matches all the details of the Account (the great plain, mountains, in Atlantic, orichalc, concentric circles city, elephants, etc) can be Atlantis. [That site is Tiahuanaco/Peru/South America.]
Yes orichalc was a metal that was mined, but it was also smelted according to various accounts.
Orei-chalc can mean "gold or mountain + copper/bronze or belonging to heaven or gold".
Jesus feet in Revelation were oreichalc, probably like the Roman coin/s though. Gold is "pure", brass is "judgment".
The Andes is a world source of copper/tin/zinc, and had alot of gold (conquistadores, eldorado), and has orichalc-like metals/alloys (tumbaga "gold-copper"), brass/etc (Crespi collection), etc.
There are nail holes in blocks at Tiahuanaco/Pumapunku.
Everyone makes a big deal about the Sicily find but ignores Mattievich's Andean find mentioned in same newspaper article.
Compare Hittite metal amutum 40 times value of silver ("must be iron"?).
It is not true that no one has found any trace of it. The issue is people dispute and disagree and deny everything.
You ask alot of good/interesting questions, but please don't just assume Plato made it up, and don't just ask those questions without also objectively looking to see if the Account Atlantis is true history. You can't say no one has found it without reading/considering all our discovery evidences, and/or without proving it.
1st. I'm not assuming anything; I know. I know that Plato did not make it up. We are all fishing here, and I'm "trolling" Atlantis, too. But, being my own captain of my boat", I have my hands on the wheel; I know where I'm going with my questions. I'm not posing the questions to myself, but to others on this site.
2nd. I say that unless we stick to the "facts" of the tale of Atlantis, as given only by Plato, we will never find it. We have to use logic to outsmart Plato, since he uses logic to tell us about Atlantis. But, as far as all the clues given us by Plato about Atlantis, just a few will not do. Not even many will get the job done. No, only 100% will do, anything short will lead all of us astray.
3rd... It is interesting that you have brought in Jesus in the picture. If Jesus wore colchicum shoes, than we need to ask Him who his shoe maker was; he will know where he got the material; God only knows. Revelation? What do you know about the New Testament Revelation? And what does it have to do with a Pagan like Plato? Did someone reveal this to you? And who revealed to you that colchicum is iron-ore? You know...you are right! But can you give me something more than Hittite history so that it can, truthfully, explain why you and me may be right? Another thing I will grant you is that Atlantis was/is much nearer to the Americas. In fact it is the only location that will ever fit Plato's story. Again, I could be wrong, as God only knows, and perhaps even His Son Jesus. But that is another "story" as they say, or is it?
What is your guess on this last; you think that Jesus will return before or after Atlantis is found?
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senator Bam
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Re: Orichalcum
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Reply #11
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February 11, 2015, 07:37:09 pm »
Quote from: Hermocrates on February 11, 2015, 02:22:39 pm
1st. I'm not assuming anything; I know. I know that Plato did not make it up. We are all fishing here, and I'm "trolling" Atlantis, too. But, being my own captain of my boat", I have my hands on the wheel; I know where I'm going with my questions. I'm not posing the questions to myself, but to others on this site.
I am not fishing. I found the island and the city positively beyond any much doubt.
(Are you "not assuming" or are you "fishing" or both/neither?)
I will let you put the questions to others, but have to answre replies to me.
Quote from: Hermocrates on February 11, 2015, 02:22:39 pm
2nd. I say that unless we stick to the "facts" of the tale of Atlantis, as given only by Plato, we will never find it. We have to use logic to outsmart Plato, since he uses logic to tell us about Atlantis. But, as far as all the clues given us by Plato about Atlantis, just a few will not do. Not even many will get the job done. No, only 100% will do, anything short will lead all of us astray.
I did stick to the Accounts/"Tales" facts (not "facts"). I have found the site. I did use logic. I do have more or less all the major (& minor) details matching the place & time.
See:
http://atlantisonline.smfforfree2.com/index.php/topic,33901.0.html
Quote from: Hermocrates on February 11, 2015, 02:22:39 pm
3rd... It is interesting that you have brought in Jesus in the picture. If Jesus wore colchicum shoes, than we need to ask Him who his shoe maker was; he will know where he got the material; God only knows. Revelation? What do you know about the New Testament Revelation? And what does it have to do with a Pagan like Plato? Did someone reveal this to you? And who revealed to you that colchicum is iron-ore? You know...you are right! But can you give me something more than Hittite history so that it can, truthfully, explain why you and me may be right? Another thing I will grant you is that Atlantis was/is much nearer to the Americas. In fact it is the only location that will ever fit Plato's story. Again, I could be wrong, as God only knows, and perhaps even His Son Jesus. But that is another "story" as they say, or is it?
What is your guess on this last; you think that Jesus will return before or after Atlantis is found?
I did not say or mean to imply/say that oreichalc is iron ore. (I meant that that Hittite metal may not be iron but oreichalc, or that it is an example of metal as or more valuable than gold/silver then.) I say what oreichalc may be in the thread/topic i gave just above. Oreichalc can't be iron because it matches the brass/brazen/bronze/findrine age in the 4 world ages of various cultures
There may be some link beteen reddish oreichalc and iron though because there is a similarity of the "a certain earth"/pseudargurios (& zinc) that use to make oreichalc with the clay and iron of Daniel in bible. (And may connect with the steel age of Persian. Actually the two ages are pair "brass/bronze (3rd) and iron (4th)" age(s). Iron age began after Hittite, with the Dorians/Sea Peoples/Atlanteans.)
quote "there is a stone which when burned becomes **iron** and then when heated in a furnace with a certain earth (identified as smithonite (zinc ore)) distils pseudarguros (mock-silver identified as zinc) which combined with copper makes orichalc".
The name "Oreichalc" is not exclusive to Atlantis. Gold is pure/purified in bible; brass is judgement in bible.
Atlantis account doesn't come from Plato but only through/via from Solon etc before him.
Yes Atlantis can only be Americas (or Armorica plate), and only one place in Americas matches the city etc: Tiahuanaco. The island is (South) America, the city is Tiahuanaco.
We have found it, Jesus or "Jesus" (Antichrist) hasn't returned yet or not in the way orthodox say.
You perhaps refering to 10 horns of beast and 10 kings of Atlantis? or to the pre-flood world perhaps? Atlantis is post-flood, and "sank" about time of Moses/Joshua (Caphtor?).
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imap143
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Re: Orichalcum
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September 19, 2015, 01:25:52 pm »
Thank you guys
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