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''Platos Atlantis & Saint Johns Revelation are the Same Story''

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pLANeT@LANTis
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« Reply #15 on: December 18, 2014, 02:12:00 am »

    I'm not so sure I understand that The Republic can be compared to the Atlantis story in the same allegorical sense. The Republic reads somewhat like a handbook for the betterment of humankind by expressing the virtues of Beauty, Love and Harmony thru training from early childhood in the arts of music, gymnastics and mathematics. This training leads into early adulthood and assists the individual in making the right choices when selecting the ideal mate and producing genetically superior offspring conceived thru true love, rather than  ill conceived thru lust and promiscuity. This is not easy reading and requires some level of concentration for almost every page of these 400 plus pages.
    Whereas the Atlantis story is fairly easy reading and about 40 pages in all, reads more like a fairytale script for a Walt Disney movie.
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Arcturus
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« Reply #16 on: December 19, 2014, 12:13:19 am »

The motive of both the Republic and TImaeus and Critias seems pretty much the same even if the works themselves are somewhat different. That motive seems to be a bit redundant, but then we are talking about a philosopher who perhaps wanted to make the same point. Opinion throughout history seems a bit divided, even in Plato's time.

Plutarch was not a contemporary of Plato, writing centuries afterwards, but he does seem to suggest that Solon actually did get the story and passed it down to Plato:

Quote
Now Solon, having begun the great work in verse, the history or fable of the Atlantic Island, which he had learned from the wise men in Sais, and thought convenient for the Athenians to know, abandoned it; not, as Plato says, by reason of want of time, but because of his age, and being discouraged at the greatness of the task; for that he had leisure enough, such verses testify, as-

"Each day grow older, and learn something new;" and again-

"But now the Powers, of Beauty, Song, and Wine,
Which are most men's delights, are also mine." Plato, willing to improve the story of the Atlantic Island, as if it were a fair estate that wanted an heir and came with some title to him, formed, indeed, stately entrances, noble enclosures, large courts, such as never yet introduced any story, fable, or poetic fiction; but, beginning it late, ended his life before his work; and the reader's regret for the unfinished part is the greater, as the satisfaction he takes in that which is complete is extraordinary. For as the city of Athens left only the temple of Jupiter Olympius unfinished, so Plato, amongst all his excellent works, left this only piece about the Atlantic Island imperfect. Solon lived after Pisistratus seized the government, as Heraclides Ponticus asserts, a long time; but Phanias the Eresian says not two full years; for Pisistratus began his tyranny when Comias was archon, and Phanias says Solon died under Hegestratus, who succeeded Comias. The story that his ashes were scattered about the island Salamis is too strange to be easily believed, or be thought anything but a mere fable; and yet it is given, amongst other good authors, by Aristotle, the philosopher.


THE END

http://classics.mit.edu/Plutarch/solon.html

So, I take from that the story was passed down from Sais, Egypt to Solon, but Plato gave it some embellishments.
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pLANeT@LANTis
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« Reply #17 on: December 20, 2014, 03:29:57 am »

    Quote: "but Plato gave it some embellishments."

     Yes! That is what I'm trying to say, and to what degree of embellishments? Just some embellishments or alot of embellishments or somewhere in between?

    The part about Solons' ashes being scattered about Salamis island is an interesting connection in word play. How closely does 'Salamis' sound like 'Atlantis' and Salamis happens to be the closest island to Athens near to the port of Piraeus!

    Therefore I propose and make a little conclusion based on this bit of word play and alliteration:

    #1.  Athens + Salamis = Atlantis

    #2.  Sais = Sa (lam) is
   
                                                                                                                       -dp-

   
« Last Edit: December 20, 2014, 08:03:18 am by pLANeT@LANTis » Report Spam   Logged
pLANeT@LANTis
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« Reply #18 on: December 20, 2014, 05:55:37 am »

    Please understand I'm trying to analyze this Atlantis story from the local perspective of what was happening all around Plato from his physical line of sight out to sea, the island of Salamis, the surrounding hills and mountains, the Plain of Attica and the oblong mound of white Marble in the center of this plain called the Acropolis and the recent addition of a temple to Athena atop this mound called the Parthenon, which he sat upon and called the center of his universe as he read the stars every night and baked in the glorious Greek sunshine under deep deep blue blue skies every day. This was his world and nothing could be any better. I mean even the Gods and Goddesses had called this home. A 'dome of light' covered all of Greece and visitors entering this dome from all directions for the first time, unknownst to them noticed it! Even today amongst all the pollution and chem trails it is still there.
     The tales of Solon surely would have got him pondering about  bigger and grander possibilities of human accomplishments on this earth. Plato himself had visited Egypt, I mean this was a very popular destination when the consistent north wind called the Meltemi blew for days on end without letting up. And it was really not that far away, Athens to Alexandria was only like 550 miles. Then the strong south wind called  the Sirocco would blow from the Sahara desert, bringing red dust and tropical insects to Greece. So the sailing seasons north and south where determined by these two dominant winds, and commerce and trade and stories flowed back and forth between Greece and Egypt for centuries, or even for milleniums before Plato.   -dp-
   
   
« Last Edit: December 20, 2014, 08:14:28 am by pLANeT@LANTis » Report Spam   Logged
pLANeT@LANTis
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« Reply #19 on: December 20, 2014, 07:39:05 am »

   But what I just don't understand and find really bizarre to comprehend, is if Solon and Plato both had really visited Egypt, why haven't they talked about the Pyramids and megalithic structures of Egypt which would have been in even more pristine condition than they are today! In all of Platos' writings that I'm aware of he mentions the Pyramids in a disappointing one or two sentences. Today we have volumes and volumes being published on the Great Pyramid alone! And yet these monuments had no impact on any of those writers, including the Biblical writers? That they would not even express their feelings and thoughts upon seeing these monstrous monuments for the first time, just does not make any sense to me?
    I find it very hard to believe that all thru the entire Bible there is not a word mentioned of the Pyramid or any of the megalithic structures of Egypt? And yet we have a constant reference to Solomons temple, when in comparison to the Pyramids and other Egyptian monuments, Solomans temple was really an inferior structure.
    So as we can obviously witness, the fix was in even way back then! A certain  group edited and controlled what was being published.
    It is simply this reason I can't fully accept the Atlantis story as presented by Plato as fact. It is so full of ludicrous details like the "depth" and "width" of canals, and yet omits the most critical measurements like longitude and latitude???   -dp-
« Last Edit: December 20, 2014, 08:41:20 am by pLANeT@LANTis » Report Spam   Logged
Arcturus
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« Reply #20 on: December 20, 2014, 07:13:14 pm »

Plato actually describes the measurements of the canals, etc. as just what he has been told (in Critias). Having said that, I am sure he exaggerated somewhat.

There is a very good reason why the pyramids aren't mentioned by Solon, yes, he went to Egypt, but he didn't go to Cairo, he went to Sais.  Those days, distances were a lot longer to travel. Its the very reason why so many theorists like the Minoans as Atlantis, they were close by.




As for why the pyramids aren't mentioned in the Bible, didn't the Jews help build them? They wrote the Bible, it would be hard to believe they would celebrate a monument to their own oppression.

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pLANeT@LANTis
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« Reply #21 on: December 21, 2014, 06:53:33 am »

    You just confirmed the point I'm trying to make. Don't you think if the jews had actually worked on the Pyramids we would have been told about it? Remember why  they were in Egypt in the first place! Joseph had been sold into slavery by his jealous brothers to the Egyptians. They lied to their father Jacob and said he had been eaten by a lion. Years later the brothers came to Egypt begging for food at the granary where Joseph worked and he recognized them. He forgave them for their nasty deeds and invited them and their father Jacob and his four wives to come and live in the land of plenty, and that was an offer they couldn't refuse. So they came and multiplied for many generations! Therefore it wasn't really oppression as much as it was the succeeding Pharaohs had had enough of them and felt they had worn out their welcome and wanted them outa there. So they conjured up that whole Exodus story to save face.    -dp-
« Last Edit: December 21, 2014, 10:32:25 pm by pLANeT@LANTis » Report Spam   Logged
pLANeT@LANTis
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« Reply #22 on: December 21, 2014, 09:25:09 am »

    The fact that Solon came 550 miles from Athens to Alexandria and wouldn't go that extra 100 miles down a well travelled and very elaborate river system of the Nile delta that would take him practically to the base of the Great Pyramid just makes no sense to me at all! Especially after he had been told the story of Atlantis by the Egyptian priests and how the colossal monuments throughout Egypt may have been the remants of the technology passed down by the survivors. I mean one could walk that distance in a few days if they had to. Therefore I have my doubts about this Solon story because of this key issue. I just can't imagine someone of Solons' stature coming this far and not going that little extra distance to witness the greatest monument of all time. And if he did why is their no record of it?

    As for the measurements of the canals as he was told, in Critias, was the script written by Plato!

    I haven't done the research for this yet, but I suspect this to be the reality behind Platos' precise depth of the canals. My theory suggests; like I stated earlier, if Plato had imagined the possibility of sailing ships arriving at the base of the Acropolis and the Parthenon from the port 6+ miles away he would have consulted with the experts as to what depth would need to be excavated, and therefore those were the calculations he used in his Atlantis story.
    The lay of the land from the Acropolis to the port of Piraeus is fairly level and today the major highway seems to follow a shallow valley,  probably an ancient riverbed. Of course their has been a lot of earth changes in this region since Platos' time, and as one can witness today the ancient city of Athens is several feet below the modern street level.

    If someone reading this wants to take it upon themselves to do the math and determine the current elevation above sea level at the base  of the Acropolis of Athens minus the elevation of ancient Athens in the area of the ancient market called Plaka, where the excavated ruins are distinctly visible many feet below street level. Then the second part of this equation would be determining the sea level at the port of Piraeus during Platos' lifetime and then do the rough calculations as to what depth would allow the largest ships of his time to sail up to the Acropolis.
    I would appreciate someone making the effort to determine this "depth of canal" and we can then compare notes and conclude whether my theory holds water and that is; I believe the "depth of canal" Plato uses in his Atlantis story will correspond exactly within a few feet of our calculations of  the "depth of canal" required at the base of the Acropolis in Platos' day.     -dp-
« Last Edit: December 22, 2014, 03:04:45 pm by pLANeT@LANTis » Report Spam   Logged
pLANeT@LANTis
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« Reply #23 on: December 22, 2014, 09:18:25 am »

    Quote from Arcturus:

"As for the whole world being Atlantis, I'll go you one better and ask this, what if this whole world had been named Atlantis before it was named the Earth..? All the ruins about us then might very well be remnants of this ancient empire."

    You may have been referring to my avatar !o!


    Here is a quote from "The Stairway to Heaven" by Zecharia Sitchen, from Chapter V - The Gods Who Came to Planet Earth:
    
   "From the Sumerian cosmological tales and epic poems, from texts that served as autobiographies of these gods, from lists of their functions and relationships and cities, from chronologies and histories called King Lists, and a wealth of other texts, inscriptions and drawings, we have pieced together a cohesive drama of what had happened in prehistoric times, and how it all began.
    Their story begins in primeval times, when our solar system was still young. It was then that a large planet appeared from outer space and was drawn into the solar system. The Sumerians called the invader NIBIRU - "Planet of the Crossing"; the Babylonian name for it was Marduk. As it passed by the outer planets, Marduk's course curved in, to a collision course with an old member of the solar system - a planet named Tiamat. As the two came together, the satellites of Marduk split Tiamat in half. Its lower part was smashed into bits and pieces, creating the comets and the asteroid belt - "the celestial bracelet" of planetary debris that orbits between Jupiter and Mars. Tiamat's upper part, together with its chief satellite, were thrown into a new orbit, to become Earth and the Moon.
    Marduk itself, intact, was caught in a vast elliptical orbit around the Sun, returning to the site of the "celestial battle" between Jupiter and Mars once in 3600 Earth-years.

    When Marduk invaded our solar system, it brought with it the seed of life. In the collision with Tiamat, some of the seed of life was transferred to its surviving part - Planet Earth. As life evolved on Earth, it emulated evolution on Marduk. And so it was that when on Earth the human species just began to stir, on Marduk intelligent beings had already achieved high levels of civilization and technology."

    p.s.  note Tiamat and Atlantis have 5 letters in common.    -dp-
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pLANeT@LANTis
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« Reply #24 on: December 22, 2014, 08:33:59 pm »

   Interesting side note here:

                                    "LIVE NOW"

    As we talk Of Babylon, Cat Stevens new album Tell Em I'm Gone is being debuted tonight on CMU (Central Michigan University) Public Radio program called World Cafe. They just played his "Raised in Babylon". Sounded great!!!

                                 www.wcmu.org



« Last Edit: December 22, 2014, 08:44:51 pm by pLANeT@LANTis » Report Spam   Logged
Arcturus
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« Reply #25 on: December 24, 2014, 02:00:47 am »

Quote
    The fact that Solon came 550 miles from Athens to Alexandria and wouldn't go that extra 100 miles down a well travelled and very elaborate river system of the Nile delta that would take him practically to the base of the Great Pyramid just makes no sense to me at all!

He may well have done that, Plato, too, but Herodotus wrote extensively about the pyramids the century before, so the idea that Egypt had pyramids was not exactly novel at that time. Your earlier point about the story either being a metaphor conceived by Plato or that the whole planet was Atlantis is well taken, though. The question is, did they conquer it or come here from somewhere else..?

I have always believed the Atlanteans might have come from elsewhere. I also believe they were a sea-faring race. One other member did a topic here sometime back about how the spiral appears in stone art all over the world. I believe the spiral is the mark of an ancient sea-faring race which we now call Atlantis. Who knows what they really called themselves..?
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Arcturus
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« Reply #26 on: December 24, 2014, 02:03:11 am »

Here is the topic I mentioned:

http://atlantisonline.smfforfree2.com/index.php/topic,108.0.html
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pLANeT@LANTis
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« Reply #27 on: December 24, 2014, 07:00:40 am »

 QUOTE from Arcturus:

"He may well have done that, Plato, too, but Herodotus wrote extensively about the pyramids the century before, so the idea that Egypt had pyramids was not exactly novel at that time. Your earlier point about the story either being a metaphor conceived by Plato or that the whole planet was Atlantis is well taken, though. The question is, did they conquer it or come here from somewhere else..?

I have always believed the Atlanteans might have come from elsewhere. I also believe they were a sea-faring race."
[/quote]

     I haven't read what Herodotus said about the pyramids!  I assume he must have seen them. But to say that they weren't exactly novel at that time when in fact they were so much more imposing in scale than the Greek architecture, and even years later Solon or Plato would have nothing to say about that and expound on Herodotus observations, like I said makes no sense to me in the real world and makes me doubt the veracity of this whole story of Solon visiting Egypt?
     I mean these guys were supposedly the intellectuals of their day and would have gone out of their way, bend over backwards, dragged themselves bound, blindfolded, gagged, and screaming to witness this greatest monument of all time.
     So something is very fishy here in all this apparent documentation of Solon and Plato visiting Egypt and the only complete focus is on the story of Atlantis received from the priests at Sais and nothing else is recorded of their journey is very suspicious; as if it was being censored and edited OR just completely fabricated by Plato from his view of the Universe from the Parthenon, mincing stories he heard with his wild imagination!
    Lets face it, that is what creative writers do and call it "true" for the sake of capturing an audience and using artistic licence, by admitting something like; "well it wasn't really a lie, it was a white lie", meanwhile making it sound like it's OK and excusing themselves from criticism.

     Most ancient myths and legends talk of Beings coming from elsewhere, implying from outer space! I don't believe Atlantis was the be all and end all of civilizations, it was just one of many colonies of much more advanced and older intelligences that arrived here from other galaxies and entered our solar system which happens to be on the outer fringes of one the spiralling arms of our Milky Way galaxy. They were mostly giants that took a pit stop here on a planet that was too small for them, before moving on toward the galactic center.
     I believe there were many extraterrestial explorers that arrived on Earth over billions of years of our history. It is only the latest accounts like Platos' Atlantis story that have survived and in the meantime that is all we have to go on and thus forums like this one evolves and generates interest into a much bigger mystery, that researchers like Michael Crimo, Graham Hancock, John Michell, Michael Tellinger, Robert Bauval and many more, who claim the Earth was settled by advanced civilizations for hundreds of thousands, if not millions of years.    -dp-



 
« Last Edit: December 24, 2014, 07:49:36 am by pLANeT@LANTis » Report Spam   Logged
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« Reply #28 on: December 24, 2014, 04:43:03 pm »

Quote
  I haven't read what Herodotus said about the pyramids!  I assume he must have seen them. But to say that they weren't exactly novel at that time when in fact they were so much more imposing in scale than the Greek architecture, and even years later Solon or Plato would have nothing to say about that and expound on Herodotus observations, like I said makes no sense to me in the real world and makes me doubt the veracity of this whole story of Solon visiting Egypt?

Look at it like this, if you went to New York and saw the Empire State Building, or the Twin Towers when they were around, sure you would be moved by their immensity, but would you write a whole account about them when you got home?   Smiley

Herodotus wrote all about them, here is the passage in the Histories where he wrote extensively about them:

http://www.gutenberg.org/files/2131/2131-h/2131-h.htm

Also, remember that neither Plato or Solon were historians, Solon was a lawmaker, Plato, a philosopher, which was similar in those days.
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pLANeT@LANTis
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« Reply #29 on: December 25, 2014, 12:34:27 am »

     First of all Merry Christmas to all and thank you Arcturus for your contributions.

     Herodotus was born in southwest Asia near to my family background from the Greek island of Simi just north of Rhodos. So this information you just linked me to has special sentimental significance.
    His fascinating knack for details is too much to absorb in one sitting or many sittings and his years of immaculate research becomes part of my vast library of Bookmarks.
     After scanning thru some of this I didn't find his Pyramid stuff tho!

     -dp-
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