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Diodorus & Herodutus' Versions of Atlantis

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Morrison
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« on: February 20, 2007, 09:19:44 pm »

The following were uncovered by our old friend Herr Saltzman (I will give credit where it is due).

Here's what Herodotus says about the Atlanteans:

At the distance of ten days' journey from the Garamantians there is again another salt-hill and spring of water; around which dwell a people, called the Atarantians, who alone of all known nations are destitute of names. The title of Atarantians is borne by the whole race in common; but the men have no particular names of their own. The Atarantians, when the sun rises high in the heaven, curse him, and load him with reproaches, because (they say) he burns and wastes both their country and themselves. Once more at the distance of ten days' there is a salt-hill, a spring, and an inhabited tract. Near the salt is a mountain called Atlas, very taper and round; so lofty, moreover, that the top (it is said) cannot be seen, the clouds never quitting it either summer or winter. The natives call this mountain "the Pillar of Heaven"; and they themselves take their name from it, being called Atlantes. They are reported not to eat any living thing, and never to have any dreams.

Thus from Egypt as far as Lake Tritonis Libya is inhabited by wandering tribes, whose drink is milk and their food the flesh of animals. Cow's flesh, however, none of these tribes ever taste, but abstain from it for the same reason as the Egyptians, neither do they any of them breed swine. Even at Cyrene, the women think it wrong to eat the flesh of the cow, honoring in this Isis, the Egyptian goddess, whom they worship both with fasts and festivals. The Barcaean women abstain, not from cow's flesh only, but also from the flesh of swine. West of Lake Tritonis the Libyans are no longer wanderers, nor do they practice the same customs as the wandering people, or treat their children in the same way."
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Morrison
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« Reply #1 on: February 20, 2007, 09:22:51 pm »

And now Diodorus:

2. But now that we have examined these matters it will be fitting, in connection with the regions we have mentioned, to discuss the account which history records of the Amazons who were in Libya in ancient times. For the majority of mankind believe that the only Amazons were those who are reported to have dwelt in the neighborhood of the Thermodon river on the Pontus; but the truth is otherwise, since the Amazons of Libya were much earlier in point of time and accomplished notable deeds. Now we are not unaware that to many who read this account the history of this people will appear to be a thing unheard of and entirely strange; for since the race of these Amazons disappeared entirely many generations before the Trojan War, whereas the women about the Thermodon river were in their full vigor a little before that time, it is not without reason that the later people, who were also better known, should have inherited the fame of the earlier, who are entirely unknown to most men because of the lapse of time. For our part, however, since we find that many early poets and historians, and not a few of the later ones as well, have made mention of them, we shall endeavor to recount their deeds in summary, following the account of Dionysius [Skytobrachion], who composed a narrative about the Argonauts and Dionysus, and also about many other things which took place in the most ancient times.

Now there have been in Libya a number of races of women who were warlike and greatly admired for their manly vigor; for instance, tradition tells us of the race of the Gorgons, against whom, as the account is given, Perseus made war, a race distinguished for its valor; for the fact that it was the son of Zeus, the mightiest Greek of his day, who accomplished the campaign against these women, and that this was his greatest Labor may be taken by any man as proof of both the pre-eminence and the power of the women we have mentioned. Furthermore, the manly prowess of those of whom we are now about to write presupposes an amazing pre-eminence when compared with the nature of the women of our day.

three amazons preparing for battle 53. We are told, namely, that there was once in the western parts of Libya, on the bounds of the inhabited world, a race which was ruled by women and followed a manner of life unlike that which prevails among us. For it was the custom among them that the women should practice the arts of war and be required to serve in the army for a fixed period, during which time they maintained their virginity; then when the years of their service in the field had expired, they went in to the men for the procreation of children, but they kept in their hands the administration of the magistracies and of all the affairs of the state. The men, however, like our married women, spent their days about the house, carrying out the orders which were given them by their wives; and they took no part in military campaigns or in office or in the exercise of freedom of speech in the affairs of the community by virtue of which they might become presumptuous and rise up against the women. When their children were born the babies were turned over to the men, who brought them up on milk and such cooked foods as were appropriate to the age of the infants; and if it happened that a girl was born, its breasts were seared that they might not develop at the time of maturity; for they thought that the breasts, as they stood out from the body, were no small hindrance in warfare; and in fact it is because they have been deprived of their breasts that they are called by the Greeks Amazons.

As mythology relates, their home was on an island which, because it was in the west, was called Hespera, and it lay in the marsh Tritonis. This marsh was near the ocean which surrounds the earth and received its name from a certain river Triton which emptied into it; and this marsh was also near Ethiopia and that mountain by the shore of the ocean which is the highest of those in the vicinity and impinges upon the ocean and is called by the Greeks Atlas. The island mentioned above was of great size and full of fruit-bearing trees of every kind, from which the natives secured their food. It contained also a multitude of flocks and herds, namely, of goats and sheep, from which the possessors received milk and meat for their sustenance; but grain the nation used not at all because the use of this fruit of the earth had not yet been discovered among them.

The Amazons, then, the account continues, being a race superior in valor and eager for war, first of all subdued all the cities on the island except the one called Mene, which was considered to be sacred and was inhabited by Ethiopian Ichthyophagi, and was also subject to great eruptions of fire and possessed a multitude of the precious stones which the Greeks call anthrax, sardion, and smaragdos; and after this they subdued many of the neighboring Libyans and nomad tribes, and founded within the marsh Tritonis a great city which they named Cherronesus after its shape.

54. Setting out from the city of Cherronesus, the account continues, the Amazons embarked upon great ventures, a longing having come over them to invade many parts of the inhabited world. The first people against whom they advanced, according to the tale, was the Atlantians, the most civilized men among the inhabitants of those regions, who dwelt in a prosperous country and possessed great cities; it was among them, we are told, that mythology places the birth of the gods, in the regions which lie along the shore of the ocean, in this respect agreeing with those among the Greeks who relate legends, and about this we shall speak in detail a little later.

Now the queen of the Amazons, Myrina, collected, it is said, an army of thirty thousand foot-soldiers and three thousand cavalry, since they favored to an unusual degree the use of cavalry in their wars. For protective devices they used the skins of large snakes, since Libya contains such animals of incredible size, and for offensive weapons, swords and lances; they also used bows and arrows, with which they struck not only when facing the enemy but also when in flight, by shooting backwards at their pursuers with good effect. Upon entering the land of the Atlantians they defeated in a pitched battle the inhabitants of the city of Cerne, as it is called, and making their way inside the walls along with the fleeing enemy, they got the city into their hands; and desiring to strike terror into the neighboring peoples they treated the captives savagely, put to the sword the men from the youth upward, led into slavery the children and women, and razed the city.

But when the terrible fate of the inhabitants of Cerne became known among their fellow tribesmen, it is related that the Atlantians, struck with terror, surrendered their cities on terms of capitulation and announced that they would do whatever should be commanded them, and that the queen Myrina, bearing herself honorably towards the Atlantians, both established friendship with them and founded a city to bear her name in place of the city which had been razed; and in it she settled both the captives and any native who so desired. Whereupon the Atlantians presented her with magnificent presents and by public decree voted to her notable honors, and she in return accepted their courtesy and in addition promised that she would show kindness to their nation.

a gorgonAnd since the natives were often being warred upon by the Gorgons, as they were named, a folk which resided upon their borders, and in general had that people lying in wait to injure them, Myrina, they say, was asked by the Atlantians to invade the land of the afore-mentioned Gorgons. But when the Gorgons drew up their forces to resist them a mighty battle took place in which the Amazons, gaining the upper hand, slew great numbers of their opponents and took no fewer than three thousand prisoners; and since the rest had fled for refuge into a certain wooded region, Myrina undertook to set fire to the timber, being eager to destroy the race utterly, but when she found that she was unable to succeed in her attempt she retired to the borders of her country.

55. Now as the Amazons, they go on to say, relaxed their watch during the night because of their success, the captive women, falling upon them and drawing the swords of those who thought they were conquerors, slew many of them; in the end, however, the multitude poured in about them from every side and the prisoners fighting bravely were butchered one and all. Myrina accorded a funeral to her fallen comrades on three pyres and raised up three great heaps of earth as toms, which are called to this day "Amazon Mounds". But the Gorgons, grown strong again in later days, were subdued a second time by Perseus, the son of Zeus, when Medusa was queen over them; and in the end both they and the race of the Amazons were entirely destroyed by Heracles, when he visited the regions to the west and set up his pillars in Libya, since he felt that it would ill accord with his resolve to be the benefactor of the whole race of mankind if he should suffer any nations to be under the rule of women. The story is also told that the marsh Tritonis disappeared from sight in the course of an earthquake, when those parts of it which lay towards the ocean were torn asunder.

As for Myrina, the account continues, she visited the larger part of Libya, and passing over into Egypt she struck a treaty of friendship with Horus, the son of Isis, who was king of Egypt at that time, and then, after making war to the end upon the Arabians and slaying many of the, she subdued Syria; but when the Cilicians came out with presents to meet her and agreed to obey her commands, she left those free who yielded to her of their free will and for this reason there are called to this day the "Free Cilicians". She also conquered in war the races in the region of the Taurus, peoples of outstanding courage, and descended through Greater Phrygia to the sea; then she won over the land lying along the coast and fixed the bounds of her campaign at the Caicus River. And selecting in the territory which she had won by arms sites well suited for the founding of cities, she built a considerable number of them and founded one which bore her own name, but the others she named after the women who held the most important commands, such as Cyme, Pitana, and Priene.

These, then are the cities she settled along the sea, but others, and a larger number, she planted in the regions stretching towards the interior. She seized also some of the islands, and Lesbos in particular, on which she founded the city of Mitylene, which was named after her sister who took part in the campaign. After that, while subduing some of the rest of the islands, she was caught in a storm, and after she had offered up prayers for her safety to the Mother of the Gods, she was carried to one of the uninhabited islands; this island, in obedience to a vision which she beheld in her dreams, she made sacred to this goddess, and set up altars there and offered magnificent sacrifices. She also gave it the name of Samothrace, which means, when translated into Greek, "sacred island," although some historians say that it was formerly called Samos and was then given the name of Samothrace by Thracians who at one time dwelt on it. However, after the Amazons had returned to the continent, the myth relates, the Mother of the Gods, well pleased with the island, settled in it certain other people, and also her own sons, who are known by the name of Corybantes--who their father was is handed down in their rites as a matter not to be divulged; and she established the mysteries which are now celebrated on the island and ordained by law that the sacred area should enjoy the right of sanctuary.

In these times, they go on to say, Mopsus the Thracian, who had been exiled by Lycurgus, the king of the Thracians, invaded the land of the Amazons with an army composed of fellow-exiles, and with Mopsus on the campaign was also Sipylus the Scythian, who had likewise been exiled from that part of Scythia which borders upon Thrace. There was a pitched battle, Sipylus and Mopsus gained the upper hand, and Myrina, the queen of the Amazons, and the larger part of the rest of her army were slain. In the course of the years, as the Thracians continued to be victorious in their battles, the surviving Amazons finally withdrew again into Libya. And such was the end, as the myth relates, of the campaign which the Amazons of Libya made.

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Danaus
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« Reply #2 on: March 06, 2007, 10:59:56 pm »

Here my quick thoughts:
Both Herodotus and Diodorus are pointing towards Africa... to a place called Libya.  In the examples given, Libya is somewhere between Egypt and Lake Tritonis(Tunisia, south of Carthage).

Lake Tritonis is a debateable... a couple of places to the east seem to be refered to as Lake Tritonis as well.  One Tritonis in Cyrene, one in Egypt.

I have dated Corybas, but the corybantes are ambiguous.

Myrina can be dated by "Sipylus and Mopsus".  One of these is date-able, the other is not.  One day I will have to re-study this.
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« Reply #3 on: March 06, 2007, 11:27:28 pm »

Hey Danaus,

Have you ever heard of Chott el Djerid? It's a seasonal lake, located in Tunisia, dry in summer, marshy in the winter. It has been associated with Lake Tritonis.  Here is more about it:



 
Chott el Djerid near the road from Tozeur to Kebili

Chott el Djerid (Arabic: شط الجريد‎) is a large endorheic salt lake in southern Tunisia, at 33.7° N 8.4344444° E.

It is the largest salt pan of the Sahara with a surface area of over 7.000 km² (some sources state 5.000 km²). Due to the extreme climate with annual rainfall of only 100 mm and temperatures reaching 50° C, water evaporates from the lake. In summer Chott el Djerid is almost entirely dried up, and numerous fata morgana's occur.

South of Chott el Djerid, the Grand Erg Oriental desert begins. The towns of Kebili and Douz are also located south of the lake.

The lake can be crossed by foot and even by car, but this is very dangerous since the salt crust isn't always too firm.

Chott el Djerid was used as a filming location for the Star Wars series, among others.
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Trent
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« Reply #4 on: March 06, 2007, 11:30:16 pm »


CHOTT EL JERID:
Dry salt lake


'Chott' is the word used in Tunisia for lakes that stays dry through the hot season, but which has some water in the winter. The largest, the Chott el Jerid, covers 5,000 sq km at the most, and lies in the middle of Tunisia, close to the Algerian border. Chott el Jerid was some thousand years ago part of the Mediterranean Sea. The chott is easily accessed, as an elevated causeway has been built across it, from Kebili to Tozeur. The part on the eastern side is called Chott el Fejej.



The trip is highly recommended, and offers some great sights, especially when the sun shines on the salty surface, and reflections together with the heat gives startling optical effects. Earlier, many caravans were lead astray by the mirages out on the chott. On the surprising side, souvenir stalls and cafés are found all along the causeway.
There are possible hazards that everyone should take into consideration: the causeway is sometimes so much covered by sand that crossing is made difficult, and in hot weather some would find the trip unpleasant.

http://lexicorient.com/tunisia/chott_el_jerid.htm
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Trent
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« Reply #5 on: March 06, 2007, 11:33:30 pm »


CHOTT EL JERID:
Empty lake




A bus, stranded in the middle of nowhere, and many kilometres away from the road.



http://lexicorient.com/tunisia/chott_el_jerid01.htm
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nikas
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« Reply #6 on: March 22, 2007, 12:17:51 am »

Guys you missing the point here;

It talks about Atlantis being next to Libya, and pillars being near Libya. C’amon which island is near Libya? MALTA.

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To discuss the account which history records of the Amazons who were in Libya in ancient times.

So they are in Libya, the amazons.

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Only Amazons were those who are reported to have dwelt in the neighborhood of the Thermodon River on the Pontus;

You see how Pontus stands for coasts. If it was Sea, he is talking about River. A river inside the sea???

Quote
Amazons of Libya were much earlier in point of time and accomplished notable deeds.

Once more the amazons were in Libya

Quote
the race of these Amazons disappeared entirely many generations before the Trojan War, whereas the women about the Thermodon river were in their full vigor a little before that time, it is not without reason that the later people, who were also better known, should have inherited the fame of the earlier, who are entirely unknown to most men because of the lapse of time.

So this shows that Amazons and Atlanteans were there many generations before the Trojan War. This disqualifies the Trojans as being Atlanteans. Also it disqualifies Santorini and Crete. Think about it; Santorin’s civilization went down around 1600 B.C Trojan war was around that time. But this one states that it happened way before the Trojan War. So Atlanteans lived way before the Mycenaean society. BINGO!

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that there was once in the western parts of Libya, on the bounds of the inhabited world,

another clue about Libya being the end of the world. The pillars. Also Atlantis being within the reach of Libya. This one just disqualifies anything outside Mediterranean. Even Spain. It doesn’t talk about Spain at all. It doesn’t even mention the land across Libya. Only Islands near Like Malta e.t.c

Quote
a great city which they named Cherronesus after its shape.

Cherronesus = peninsula. You see that he ancient had a different word for peninsula. And Nisos stands only for Island.

Quote
Setting out from the city of Cherronesus, the account continues, the Amazons embarked upon great ventures, a longing having come over them to invade many parts of the inhabited world. The first people against whom they advanced, according to the tale, was the Atlantians, the most civilized men among the inhabitants of those regions, who dwelt in a prosperous country and possessed great cities; it was among them, we are told, that mythology places the birth of the gods, in the regions which lie along the shore of the ocean, in this respect agreeing with those among the Greeks who relate legends, and about this we shall speak in detail a little later.

So we established the location of amazons. In Libya, somewhere near today’s Tunisia. Now the first to get advanced by Amazons are the Atlanteans. So it means they were the neighbors. Neighbors near Tunisia. MALTESE people and the area around them.

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queen Myrina, bearing herself honorably towards the Atlantians

Aren’t ancient Maltese people worshiping a mother goddess…?!?! Hmmhmhmh

Quote
Myrina accorded a funeral to her fallen comrades on three pyres and raised up three great heaps of earth as toms, which are called to this day "Amazon Mounds".



Quote
Amazons were entirely destroyed by Heracles, when he visited the regions to the west and set up his pillars in Libya,

C’mon people Libya (Tunisia people Tunisia and Sicily). It doesn’t mention Spain at all. I mean it doesn’t describe anything like Gibraltar.

Quote
As for Myrina, the account continues, she visited the larger part of Libya, and passing over into Egypt.

Hello…they’re neighbors!!

Guys I never read these records before but they only further prove my theory. What else can I provide you with?
Is it possible to obtain the Greek version of this writings? I am going to use them in my essay.

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« Reply #7 on: March 22, 2007, 01:46:58 pm »

Hi Morrison,

The Herodotus and Diodorus accounts are a bit fanciful but interesting. What I don't understand is how they relate in any way to Plato's story of Atlantis.  Also, I would like to know how these accounts support your idea that Atlantis was located in South America.
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« Reply #8 on: March 22, 2007, 02:26:00 pm »

You see how Pontus stands for coasts. If it was Sea, he is talking about River. A river inside the sea???
Ah yes, Nikas.  Have you ever heard of the Gulf Stream?  It's the river that flows through the Atlantic Ocean. 
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nikas
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« Reply #9 on: March 22, 2007, 02:50:55 pm »

You see how Pontus stands for coasts. If it was Sea, he is talking about River. A river inside the sea???
Ah yes, Nikas.  Have you ever heard of the Gulf Stream?  It's the river that flows through the Atlantic Ocean. 

really, have you heard of Primitive people that lived in greece at that time and knew nothing about gulf streams and would consider them god's will to ...i dont know what..... He is talking about an actual river inland. Read it carefully before you comment on it.
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« Reply #10 on: March 22, 2007, 09:35:42 pm »

Morrison,
Good post on Diodorus.  That is the Book 3 reference. 
He has a book 4 reference as well:
http://www.theoi.com/Text/DiodorusSiculus4B.html

Other neat things scattered in his writing:
Book 1: The Athenians built Sais.  They are the only greeks who call themselves asty, like the egyptian city.
Book 5: Athenians built Sais.

http://books.google.com/books?ie=UTF-8&hl=en&id=agd-eLVNRMMC&dq=Hecateus+date:100-1922&prev=http://books.google.com/books%3Fas_q%3DHecateus%26num%3D10%26lr%3D%26as_epq%3D%26as_oq%3
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« Reply #11 on: March 23, 2007, 08:27:28 am »

really, have you heard of Primitive people that lived in greece at that time and knew nothing about gulf streams and would consider them god's will to ...i dont know what..... He is talking about an actual river inland. Read it carefully before you comment on it.

No one can be certain of that.  They were not as primitive as you may think (give them some credit) and I'm sure they knew about the currents.  Now maybe they didn't call it an oceanic river, but it doesn't mean they didn't know of its existence.  I'm trying to propose an alternative suggestion (no matter how far fetched it may seem.)

In Feb. 2007 issue of Archeaology magazine is an article about a scientist in South America who believes he may have found a port city regularly used by the Egyptians.  He found foundations of limestone quarried from the local area, but the tools around the site where EGYPTIAN!  Age is the next thing to figure out.  What era was the port city?  I don't know, but it still shows that there is a possibility that the ancients knew about oceanic rivers such as the Gulf Stream.  They had to in order to travel to other continents.
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Danaus
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« Reply #12 on: March 23, 2007, 02:59:36 pm »

"they didn't call it an oceanic river"
-- Vague statement.  There was a "River Oceanus".  Also a "God of the Grove" called Oceanus.
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Morrison
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« Reply #13 on: March 24, 2007, 02:55:52 pm »

Hi Morrison,

The Herodotus and Diodorus accounts are a bit fanciful but interesting. What I don't understand is how they relate in any way to Plato's story of Atlantis.  Also, I would like to know how these accounts support your idea that Atlantis was located in South America.


Easily answered, Tom, they don't! I simply think it was worth our while to collect all the information purported by others to have some relationship with Atlantis, see what we have, and go from there.

I don't believe that Diodorus was talking about the "same" Atlantis as Plato. And, if he was, someone here should make a list of all the points that are in common.  There won't be much.
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« Reply #14 on: March 24, 2007, 03:04:05 pm »

Great find, Danaus, I have been looking for a comprehensive website on the writings of Diodorus for some time.

Other references to the Atlantides:


ATLAS AND THE HESPERIDES

[4.27.1] But we must not fail to mention what the myths relate about Atlas and about the race of the Hesperides. The account runs like this: In the country known as Hesperitis there were two brothers whose fame was known abroad, Hesperus and Atlas. Thse brothers possessed flocks of sheep which excelled in beauty and were in colour of a golden yellow, this being the reason why the poets, in speaking of these sheep as mela, called them golden mela.

[4.27.2] Now Hesperus begat a daughter named Hesperis, whom he gave in marriage to his brother and after whom the land was given the name Hesperitis; and Atlas begat by her seven daughters, who were named after their father Atlantides, and after their mother, Hesperides. And since these Atlantides excelled in beauty and chastity, Busiris the king of the Egyptians, the account says, was seized with the desire to get the maidens into his power; and consequently he dispatched pirates by sea with orders to seize the girls and deliver them into his hands.

[4.27.3] About this time Heracles, while engaged in the performance of his last Labour, slew in Libya Antaeus, who was compelling all strangers to wrestle with him, and upon Busiris in Egypt, who was sacrificing to Zeus the strangers who visited his country, he inflicted the punishment which he deserved. After this Heracles sailed up the Nile into Ethiopia, where he slew Emathion, the king of the Ethiopians, who had made battle with him unprovoked, and then returned to the completion of his last Labour.

[4.27.4] Meanwhile the pirates had seized the girls while they were playing in a certain garden and carried them off, and fleeing swiftly to their ships had sailed away with them. Heracles came upon the pirates as they were taking their meal on a certain strand, and learning from the maidens what had taken place he slew the pirates to a man and brought the girls back to Atlas their father; and in return Atlas was so grateful to Heracles for his kindly deed that he not only gladly gave him such assistance as his Labour called for, but he also instructed him quite freely in the knowledge of astrology.

[4.27.5] For Atlas had worked out the science of astrology to a degree surpassing others had had ingeniously discovered the spherical nature of the stars,76 and for that reason was generally believed to be bearing the entire firmament upon his shoulders. Similarly in the case of Heracles, when he had brought to the Greeks the doctrine of the sphere, he gained great fame, as if he had taken over the burden of the firmament which Atlas had borne, wince men intimated in this enigmatic way what had actually taken place.

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