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2nd Peter, Chapter 3, verses 5-8, Authorized King James Version

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TWGilbert
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« on: March 17, 2014, 03:03:22 pm »

2nd Peter, Chapter 3, verses 5 – 8: “For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished. But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.”

Anyone out there ever made a connection with the idea that this might be a reference to Atlantis? I think so, but I'm into really esoteric stuff anyway. Like.............I actually think that Paul is actually A-Paul-O mentioned in Acts who was actually Apollo or Apollonius of Tyanna.

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Autolocus
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« Reply #1 on: March 17, 2014, 09:07:09 pm »

HI TWGilbert and welcome to the forum! The Bible might be mentioning Atlantis in many chapters. Some hold that each mention Tarshish is actually Atlantis. The Bible seems to elude in Isaiah 23 that the city of Tarshish was destroyed and the name Tarshish is mentioned 21 times. 21 in Biblical numerics is the sin of sinfulness. 

Also, in Revelations, the city of Babylon is destroyed by an angel, maybe that is Atlantis, too..?
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Autolocus
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« Reply #2 on: March 17, 2014, 09:18:18 pm »

Here is the passage of Revelations I was looking for, try and tell me this isn't a reference to Atlantis! I have underline the pertinent part:

Revelation 18

New International Version (NIV)
Lament Over Fallen Babylon

18 After this I saw another angel coming down from heaven. He had great authority, and the earth was illuminated by his splendor. 2 With a mighty voice he shouted:

“‘Fallen! Fallen is Babylon the Great!’[a]
    She has become a dwelling for demons
and a haunt for every impure spirit,
    a haunt for every unclean bird,
    a haunt for every unclean and detestable animal.
3 For all the nations have drunk
    the maddening wine of her adulteries.
The kings of the earth committed adultery with her,
    and the merchants of the earth grew rich from her excessive luxuries.”
Warning to Escape Babylon’s Judgment

4 Then I heard another voice from heaven say:

“‘Come out of her, my people,’
    so that you will not share in her sins,
    so that you will not receive any of her plagues;
5 for her sins are piled up to heaven,
    and God has remembered her crimes.
6 Give back to her as she has given;
    pay her back double for what she has done.
    Pour her a double portion from her own cup.
7 Give her as much torment and grief
    as the glory and luxury she gave herself.
In her heart she boasts,
    ‘I sit enthroned as queen.
I am not a widow;[c]
    I will never mourn.’
8 Therefore in one day her plagues will overtake her:
    death, mourning and famine.
She will be consumed by fire,
    for mighty is the Lord God who judges her.
Threefold Woe Over Babylon’s Fall

9 “When the kings of the earth who committed adultery with her and shared her luxury see the smoke of her burning, they will weep and mourn over her. 10 Terrified at her torment, they will stand far off and cry:

“‘Woe! Woe to you, great city,
    you mighty city of Babylon!
In one hour your doom has come!’

11 “The merchants of the earth will weep and mourn over her because no one buys their cargoes anymore— 12 cargoes of gold, silver, precious stones and pearls; fine linen, purple, silk and scarlet cloth; every sort of citron wood, and articles of every kind made of ivory, costly wood, bronze, iron and marble; 13 cargoes of cinnamon and spice, of incense, myrrh and frankincense, of wine and olive oil, of fine flour and wheat; cattle and sheep; horses and carriages; and human beings sold as slaves.

14 “They will say, ‘The fruit you longed for is gone from you. All your luxury and splendor have vanished, never to be recovered.’ 15 The merchants who sold these things and gained their wealth from her will stand far off, terrified at her torment. They will weep and mourn 16 and cry out:

“‘Woe! Woe to you, great city,
    dressed in fine linen, purple and scarlet,
    and glittering with gold, precious stones and pearls!
17 In one hour such great wealth has been brought to ruin!’

“Every sea captain, and all who travel by ship, the sailors, and all who earn their living from the sea, will stand far off. 18 When they see the smoke of her burning, they will exclaim, ‘Was there ever a city like this great city?’ 19 They will throw dust on their heads, and with weeping and mourning cry out:

“‘Woe! Woe to you, great city,
    where all who had ships on the sea
    became rich through her wealth!
In one hour she has been brought to ruin!’

20 “Rejoice over her, you heavens!
    Rejoice, you people of God!
    Rejoice, apostles and prophets!
For God has judged her
    with the judgment she imposed on you.”
The Finality of Babylon’s Doom

21 Then a mighty angel picked up a boulder the size of a large millstone and threw it into the sea, and said:

“With such violence
    the great city of Babylon will be thrown down,
    never to be found again.

22 The music of harpists and musicians, pipers and trumpeters,
    will never be heard in you again.
No worker of any trade
    will ever be found in you again.
The sound of a millstone
    will never be heard in you again.
23 The light of a lamp
    will never shine in you again.
The voice of bridegroom and bride
    will never be heard in you again.
Your merchants were the world’s important people.
    By your magic spell all the nations were led astray.
24 In her was found the blood of prophets and of God’s holy people,
    of all who have been slaughtered on the earth.”



http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation+18
« Last Edit: March 17, 2014, 09:20:01 pm by Autolocus » Report Spam   Logged
TWGilbert
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« Reply #3 on: April 05, 2014, 11:01:23 am »

The more I read the above the more I am inclined to agree with you. Well done, thanks! TG
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Hermocrates
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« Reply #4 on: June 11, 2015, 10:11:48 pm »

This comes a little late, since I just noticed it, but perhaps too early too, if that is possible, since I have not perused other posts to see if your train of thought is shared/covered by other comments within this forum. My point is this. In what way do you think that this passage or other passages contained in the Bible, as also pointed out by the previous responder to your post, relate to Atlantis? What logical reasoning have you to show us to assert such connection as being something plausible?
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Rennes-le-Château
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« Reply #5 on: June 12, 2015, 12:37:18 am »

he Biblical references to Tartish always seemed to be related to Atlantis, the city was wealthy and to the west.
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Hermocrates
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« Reply #6 on: June 12, 2015, 02:34:05 pm »

he Biblical references to Tartish always seemed to be related to Atlantis, the city was wealthy and to the west.

Is that all it takes? Just wealthy and to the west, and bingo! We have Atlantis. Not buying this wealth. The only way that Atlantis is tied to the Bible, the New Testament to be specific, is to the second coming of Jesus. What I mean is that once, a poll was made by the newspaper men of England back in the 50s, I believe, and it came out that the most news worthy story would be; first, the second coming of Jesus, and number two, the definite discovery of Atlantis. I, myself would reverse the order, but only because the discovery of Atlantis will precede Jesus' second coming.  Still it's interesting that anyone would even consider a connection between Atlantis and the Bible. Very interesting indeed, but unfortunately unless someone who harbors such thoughts can give a great deal of details and a good and reasonable account of how and why the two are related, then it may as well be just another "wild goose chase", as the saying goes.  But realistically is that not what we are all doing here? Chasing the goose that had laid a wealthy goose egg? I'm afraid that Socrates/Plato are not that easy to catch, if you get my drift.
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Rennes-le-Château
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« Reply #7 on: June 12, 2015, 07:57:20 pm »

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Is that all it takes? Just wealthy and to the west, and bingo! We have Atlantis.

Sadly, that is all it does take to relate to Atlantis in the ancient world, in fact, other places have been connected to Atlantis with even less.

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Still it's interesting that anyone would even consider a connection between Atlantis and the Bible.

Why is it so interesting to you? The Bible is not a literal history, it is a complex blend of allegory, mythology and local color, it isn't to be taken as a literal document. That is, unless you really believe stories like Adam & Eve, Noah's Ark and the Tower of Babel were actually true. The world is not 6,000 years old as the Bible says it is, there was never a global flood, the universe was not created in seven days. The point is, even if Atlantis was literally mentioned in the Bible, it wouldn't be proof its existence it would be just another myth in the Bible whose veracity would be up for dispute, like Samson and Delilah or Noah's Ark.
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Hermocrates
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« Reply #8 on: June 13, 2015, 08:44:21 am »

Quote
Is that all it takes? Just wealthy and to the west, and bingo! We have Atlantis.

Sadly, that is all it does take to relate to Atlantis in the ancient world, in fact, other places have been connected to Atlantis with even less.

Quote
Still it's interesting that anyone would even consider a connection between Atlantis and the Bible.

Why is it so interesting to you? The Bible is not a literal history, it is a complex blend of allegory, mythology and local color, it isn't to be taken as a literal document. That is, unless you really believe stories like Adam & Eve, Noah's Ark and the Tower of Babel were actually true. The world is not 6,000 years old as the Bible says it is, there was never a global flood, the universe was not created in seven days. The point is, even if Atlantis was literally mentioned in the Bible, it wouldn't be proof its existence it would be just another myth in the Bible whose veracity would be up for dispute, like Samson and Delilah or Noah's Ark.

I do not follow your contradictions. Are you using the same criterion in all this? Is the Myth of Atlantis any different than the "Myth" of the Bible? You seem to just be preferring one myth to another. What say you, is Atlantis a myth or not? I will answer that for you. It is a myth according to your definition and Plato's own account; I mean Poseidon being the father of the Atlantian race, who are we kidding? Is that what you define as literal history? You prefer one myth over another, as you term the Bible to be. I'm not advocating one or the other, and I'm only commenting on your own comments in a logical sense. According to you Atlantis is a myth. And if a myth, what are you doing here on this site with all your posts? Do you really think that a myth can ever be found in reality? So I'm assuming that you are on this site just for "kicks", and not seriously intending to really find Atlantis, or discover if anyone else has, right?
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Rennes-le-Château
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« Reply #9 on: June 13, 2015, 11:57:32 am »

I'm not following your not following what you believe to be my supposed contradiction.

I never said Atlantis was a myth, I said:

The Bible is not a literal history, it is a complex blend of allegory, mythology and local color, it isn't to be taken as a literal document.The point is, even if Atlantis was literally mentioned in the Bible, it wouldn't be proof its existence it would be just another myth in the Bible whose veracity would be up for dispute, like Samson and Delilah or Noah's Ark.

Atlantis is not a myth, it appears nowhere in Greek mythology, only Plato's writings, which lends the story its added weight. The fact that Plato wrote about it and states many times it is "true," gives it its weight.

He did not write about Samson and Delilah.

He did not write about the Exodus, Noah's Ark, Genesis or Joseph and his amazing technicolor raincoat. 

The fact that he wrote about Atlantis and usually wrote about historical events, as I said, is what gives it its weight.  Not so, the Bible which includes many a myth in it that has never been proven, like Noah's Ark. So you are actually saying something that I never said.

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According to you Atlantis is a myth. And if a myth, what are you doing here on this site with all your posts?

Actually, I do believe in Atlantis, but getting back to your point, do you think only believers are allowed here? Is that a criteria for joining? The forum has a lot of sub forums on it and until the day the rules are changed for joining or apparently you become a moderator, anyone can join as they like.
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Hermocrates
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« Reply #10 on: June 13, 2015, 07:25:51 pm »

No, no, and no to all your responses Rennes. Anyone can be here on this site, as I gather. You are not into Plato for philosophy, as it appears to me, but only for Atlantis. This I'm surmising from your last reply. You also seem to be someone that has no faith in the Bible on the basis of "faith." The Bible itself is not in question here, obviously. Your logical reasoning is very "corrupt" if you cannot fathom what I had related. You are still using two different "rules" for judging what is myth and what is not, when comparing Plato's mention of Atlantis and the Bible's stories. Remember that both Atlantis and any story in the Bible has a God as its beginning. Atlantis has Poseidon, and the Bible has Jehovah. Scientifically, if that is your premise for rejecting the Bible stories, and accepting the Atlantis story, reason is contrary to both, when it comes to "scientific" evidence. Therefore you are not being rational, but I would say that you are "preferential." You prefer Atlantis over the Bible stories. My opinion is that you don't understand Plato. Perhaps it's because you are not a philosophy student, and have hit upon Plato only for the mystic and popularity of the Atlantis Myth. But I could be wrong, as I'm only assuming from your responses. Now, if you had really understood Plato, reading the Timaeus, you would have noticed that Plato did indeed talk about those same stories in the Bible, only they are the Greek versions. Also throughout Plato's writings, if you had read them and paid close attention, you would have noticed a Greek Samson; Heracles (Hercules) is the name. Just to mention one. Plato addresses, cites, and uses much of Greek Mythology. Does this place any more credence on these deities, only because Plato speaks of them? Use common sense if you cannot grasp or are unfamiliar with our philosopher, please.

Here is also a little help in logical thinking. You stated that Atlantis appears only in Plato's writings, therefore it has to be true. Wrong! If something is true, and of such an epic proportion as Atlantis was made out to be by Plato, how come no one else had mentioned it before? I mean in the way that Plato gives detailed account of it.  That only proves the opposite. Further, does not science tell us that civilized man did NOT exist 11,500 years ago? I understand that evidence if difficult to come by stemming that far back, especially since it supposed to be beneath water. But, how about the rest of the civilized world that also, as Plato tells us, existed along with Atlantis, and Ancient, ancient Athens? Where is the archaeological proof, or literal historical accounts of those?  Where is the chain between the Atlantis age and the priests of Egyptian Sais, which related the story to Solon? Where in Egypt has anyone found any kind of mention of Atlantis and the civilized world then existing, during all those intense and prolific archeological expeditions? No, not even the great professor, Dr. Jones, ever though of going searching for the Lost Atlantis; the lost Ark of the Covenant yes, the Crystal Skull yes, but Atlantis? No!

You are quick to point out the fallacies of the Bible stories, and then you swallow the ones Plato dishes out. The saying that best describes your condition is that you, "Strain a gnat and then swallow a camel."  If you cannot believe the Bible, then you cannot believe in Atlantis. You cannot have your cake and eat it too. Therefore criticize if you must, and also tell us your opinion; that is all anyone here can do, but please be consistent and use the same ruler. 
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Rennes-le-Château
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« Reply #11 on: June 13, 2015, 08:11:39 pm »

And a big No, no, and no to all your responses Hermocrates. You are a Theolgian looking for a means to justify your faith. While your post, and coincidentally Robert's were also largely a character attack on me, I have to remind you that this is an archaeological website and most people here are looking for proof that Atlantis existed, and will not be buying into your metaphysical agenda.
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You are not into Plato for philosophy, as it appears to me, but only for Atlantis.

Just like 99% of the people who research Atlantis.

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You also seem to be someone that has no faith in the Bible on the basis of "faith."

Unlike you, I keep my faith separate from my beliefs in science, you apparently marry the two. If so, please divulge your evidence that the world is only thousands of years old or that there was a global flood. The point is, if you can't, you are a hypocrite.

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The Bible itself is not in question here, obviously.

More accurately put, it's not  at question for you because you are an apparent religious zealot.

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You are still using two different "rules" for judging what is myth and what is not, when comparing Plato's mention of Atlantis and the Bible's stories.

No I am not, as I said earlier, the Bible is a complex blend of myth, folklore and local color, Plato says in Timaeus and Critias that Atlantis was "true." Had he not said so, we would not be having this discussion.
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Remember that both Atlantis and any story in the Bible has a God as its beginning.

We are not looking for proof of Poseidon's existence anymore than we are looking for proof of God. We are looking for Atlantis, at least some of us are. Every religion has a central deity at the head of it incidentally, everything down from Zoraster, I suppose you have never heard of him.

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My opinion is that you don't understand Plato. Perhaps it's because you are not a philosophy student, and have hit upon Plato only for the mystic and popularity of the Atlantis Myth.

My apologies if you thought this was a philosophy website, but, judging from your posts, you have very little understanding of Plato yourself, especially since you believe he was a devout Christian like yourself and are looking in seemingly desperate ways to link your beliefs to him.

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Now, if you had really understood Plato, reading the Timaeus, you would have noticed that Plato did indeed talk about those same stories in the Bible, only they are the Greek versions. Also throughout Plato's writings, if you had read them and paid close attention, you would have noticed a Greek Samson; Heracles (Hercules) is the name. Just to mention one.

The stories of Hercules and Samson have absolutely nothing to do with each other, save for they were both strong. Plato doesn't mention any of the stories of the Bible in ANY of his writings, if he did, by all means, please present the evidence for it. You won't because you can't.

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Here is also a little help in logical thinking.

Love the superior tone, by the way, an old debating trick. When you have NOTHING to add to discussion, like you do, act superior. From my point of view of you, you are basically a Theologian trying to cram his beliefs, not evidence down the throats of anyone who will listen to them, but whatever. Anyone reading this knows what you are selling.

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You stated that Atlantis appears only in Plato's writings, therefore it has to be true. Wrong! If something is true, and of such an epic proportion as Atlantis was made out to be by Plato, how come no one else had mentioned it before? I mean in the way that Plato gives detailed account of it. 

Well, that is why Atlantis remains such a captivating mystery, and it WAS mentioned in other accounts, at least in part. There are threads here devoted to that topic. You apparently don't believe in Atlantis, fair enough, so where is your proof of Noah's Ark or any of those other Bible stories you believe in. I am guessing you don't have any, though you have spent way more time looking for them than you have Atlantis.

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If you cannot believe the Bible, then you cannot believe in Atlantis.

Plato writes that the story is "true," a "fact and not a fiction." The notion of a Bronze Age society to the west of the Pillars of Hercules being wiped out by a flood is far more plausible than the obvious myths described in the Bible, many of which, like the notion of the global flood, have already been disproven by science.
« Last Edit: June 13, 2015, 08:16:24 pm by Rennes-le-Château » Report Spam   Logged
Rennes-le-Château
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« Reply #12 on: June 13, 2015, 08:22:03 pm »

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No, not even the great professor, Dr. Jones, ever though of going searching for the Lost Atlantis; the lost Ark of the Covenant yes, the Crystal Skull yes, but Atlantis? No!

You do know Indiana Jones was just a movie, right? Huh
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Hermocrates
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« Reply #13 on: June 14, 2015, 04:27:25 pm »

Rennes........Just as I had thought. You are a devilish of a sparring partner for anyone with any hint of intelligence. But then again ignorance is equal to assumption. I assumed you were someone who was a tid bit intelligent, and you assumed that I'm a religious zealot. So much for assumptions. Our discussion ends here and now, before it progresses to nasty words on either side. But I will leave you with a parting gift, if you are able to, critically, recognize and be honest with yourself, and which is that you are totally ignorant of Plato's works. Especially for the parts that interest you so much; Atlantis. Read and understand, if you are able to, the Timaeus and the Critias for what they are worth. However, don't bother to apologize to me, I already understand your predicament. Happy hunting, and really hope you learn something from your search, or most likely, from others' searching. I "prophesy" that unless you really become proficient in philosophy, and especially Socrates and Plato, you will never find your way out of a paper bag, let alone find your way home back in Atlantis! But perhaps if you can inquire with the Delphi Oracle, you can get at least one direction....the same one I have just given you.  You are quick with your ignorance, now let see how quick you are with that little bit of intelligence that are able to mustard, in realizing your ignorance that it is ignorant and futile to attempt to find Atlantis without knowledge of the "facts" of the myth. Therefore if you can understand what I'm saying, and you are not, as I see it, you will never find it, unless you become a devout, and knowledgeable student of Plato; all his works and not just a couple of pages addressing Atlantis. But that is just a start, read other philosophers as well. And you should read the Bible, too, as well as all the other major religions texts, but only after you understand Plato, otherwise you will remain in the dark, as you are now. Are you a "scientist" by any chance? I mean if you want to see scientific proof, how would you know what proof is?   

So long fellow searcher!
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Rennes-le-Château
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« Reply #14 on: June 14, 2015, 07:35:36 pm »

And thank you for supporting all my assumptions towards you, Hermocrates. Rather than present any proof to support your pompous assumptions, you resorted to name-calling and insults. Yes, great example of taking the higher ground. Oh, I forget, you don't have any higher ground, you simply believe if your tone is arrogant enough, people will swallow whatever swill you are dishing out. Wrong.

Here is one for you: you are a pompous, hypocritical windbag. I don't know who you thought you were reaching when you came here with your religious beliefs, but you had to realize that you would run into Atlantis researchers in a website based on Atlantis and not philosophy students. Is that supposed to be a revelation to you?

Most of your last post (like all or your posts incidentally) amount to mindless posturing, this one I really have to address, though:

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you are totally ignorant of Plato's works. Especially for the parts that interest you so much; Atlantis.

This coming from the person who began this topic trying to build a correlation between Plato's works and the Bible, something that only a devout believer in the Bible would do. I ask again, where are your proofs that Plato and the Bible are talking about the same thing?  Where are all the many correlations between Greek myth and the Bible that you claim to exist? I'll bet you haven't touched on that topic at all and are only going by your faith. The surest sign that someone has lost and argument is when they cut out rather than defend any of their assertions, and, of course, as you did, throw a few snippy insults in on the way out.

Well, I will keep asking for those proofs each time you pollute this forum with your pompous preaching. Hopefully, next time you will have the sense to at least have a semblance of them.

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