Morocco and Eastern Atlantis

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atalante
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   posted 01-25-2005 09:21 AM                   
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Ulf,
You provided an excellent link about ancient ships, which claims the oldest ship drawings are located in Egypt's Eastern Desert, between the Nile River and the Red Sea.
That region also contains ruins of the oldest known gold mines. Ancient ships may have been used to transport the ancient gold,
so I am re-posting here a message which I previously put in the Zep Tepi topic.

atalante
Member posted 01-22-2005 13:34
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Research during 2002-2005 has located what is believed to be the earliest goldsmiths in the world. Tentatively the culture is dated 5500-3100 BC. It was located in southeast Egypt, near the Red Sea, in the Valley of Daghbeg.
quote from the Discovery Channel in Feb 2002: http://dsc.discovery.com/news/briefs/20020204/egyptian.html

The discovery of several mines that date to 5,500-3,100 B.C. in southern Egypt leads researchers there to believe the ancient Egyptians were the first to extract gold and to use the precious metal for making jewelry.

While the exact dates of the mines have yet to be confirmed, researcher Ali Barakat of Egypt's Geological Survey Authority recently told the Egyptian State Information Service that the Egyptians who lived both near the Red Sea and in the Valley of Daghbeg were the world's first goldsmiths.

Barakat added that the ancient Egyptians were the first to map geological charts of gold mines. He also said that they developed an effective technique for extracting gold from quartz veins.
According to Barakat, remnants of tools and ditches suggest that workers would grind stone containing gold into a fine powder. Water would be added to help dissolve deposits. The mixture then was poured into square-shaped basins that would trap sediments and leave the gold for collecting.

...

Although the metal was plentiful, it was reserved for nobility.

"The Egyptians referred to it as the skin, or the flesh, of the gods," she said. "Because of its color, gold was also associated with the sun."

endquote

That article by Discovery Channel was based on a press release in January 2002 by the Egyptian State News Agency. http://www.sis.gov.eg/online/html4/o230821.htm

One very interesting element of this story is that large "channels" have now been discovered in association with perhaps the earliest gold mining culture in the world.

These archaeological finds help to explain the function (i.e. sedimentary ore processing) of some upstream "channels" in Plato's story of Atlantis.

And farthermore, the ancient Egyptians had told Solon/Plato that Atlantis had a massive amount of gold, as reported in Critias 120e-121a. http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?doc=Perseus:text:1999.01.0180

Critias 120e
Consequently they thought scorn of everything save virtue and lightly esteemed their rich possessions, bearing with ease

[121a] the burden, as it were, of the vast volume of their gold and other goods; and thus their wealth did not make them drunk with pride so that they lost control of themselves


Mythically speaking, this 5500-3100 BC period for Egypt's Daghbeg gold mines can correlate to the "golden age" which was ruled by the Greek god Cronos.







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Posts: 2590 | From: Tucson AZ USA | Registered: Apr 2003   

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Smiley4554

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  posted 01-25-2005 10:11 AM                   
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Thanks, Tom.
Absonite: You are the first to point out that the names of the oceans were not what we call them today, but say that the Mediterranean was no harbor based upon what it appears today.


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the Atlantic Ocean (or simply "Ocean") of the ancients of the times of Plato, Herodotus, Aristotle and others was the whole of the earth encircling ocean.

This power came forth out of the Atlantic Ocean, for in those days the Atlantic was navigable; and there was an island situated in front of the straits which are by you called the Pillars of Heracles; the island was larger than Libya and Asia put together, and was the way to other islands, and from these you might pass to the whole of the opposite continent which surrounded the true ocean;


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This description is distinctly separating 2 completely different bodies of water ... i.e. the Atlantic Ocean and the "true ocean" beyond which would be the ocean that you are speaking about.

But, it is quite clear that they are 2 distinctly different bodies of water, and the ancients knew the difference.

Also, in this passage, the location is clear. An island was

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an island situated in front of the straits which are by you called the Pillars of Heracles
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, and this distinctly locates Atlantis in front of the open mouth of the Mediterranean Sea.

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You think the Mediterranean is just a harbor? Try swimming it sometime.
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You are "assuming" that the Mediterranean has always been as it is now, but it hasn't. There was a time when a whole lot more land was above the Mediterranean Sea's level. So, if we put it into perspective, at one time, the Mediterranean could have been what they would have called a "harbor".

Why do you think that they find so many submerged cities?


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Who called it a harbor?
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This power came forth out of the Atlantic Ocean, for in those days the Atlantic was navigable; and there was an island situated in front of the straits which you call the Columns of Heracles: the island was larger than Libya and Asia put together, and was the way to other islands, and from the islands you might pass through the whole of the opposite continent which surrounded the true ocean; for this sea which is within the Straits of Heracles is only a harbor, having a narrow entrance, but that other is a real sea, and the surrounding land may be most truly called a continent.
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If you note, he said specifically

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for this sea which is within the Straits of Heracles is only a harbor, having a narrow entrance,
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So, yes, he did say that the Mediterranean Sea was a "harbour", but he also was comparing & distinguishing it from the Atlantic Ocean so that no one would get the 2 confused with each other. Whether or not he meant it as such is another matter.


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Posts: 6724 | From: Arkansas...USA | Registered: Jan 2001   

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Ulf Richter

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   posted 01-25-2005 12:32 PM                   
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atalante,
You have pointed to a very important clue:

> The discovery of several mines that date to 5,500-3,100 B.C. in southern Egypt leads researchers there to believe the ancient Egyptians were the first to extract gold and to use the precious metal for making jewelry<

When this part of Egypt was a famous source of gold, it is obvious why the Atlanteans may have travelled there by ship - via Mediterranean and Nile river - to get this precious metal. It is also possible that they, having special experience in gold mining, were exploring new sources and during one of these expeditions came to this remote place, as our today oil explorers are searching everywhere on the globe.

Anyway, the leaders or kings ruling a place where this precious metal was mined and traded, got wealthy and migthy and it is not astonishing therefore, that the first dynasty of Egypt was developing in this area.


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Posts: 782 | From: Schwabenheim, Germany | Registered: Sep 2002   

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Ulf Richter

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   posted 01-25-2005 12:32 PM                   
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atalante,
You have pointed to a very important clue:

> The discovery of several mines that date to 5,500-3,100 B.C. in southern Egypt leads researchers there to believe the ancient Egyptians were the first to extract gold and to use the precious metal for making jewelry<

When this part of Egypt was a famous source of gold, it is obvious why the Atlanteans may have travelled there by ship - via Mediterranean and Nile river - to get this precious metal. It is also possible that they, having special experience in gold mining, were exploring new sources and during one of these expeditions came to this remote place, as our today oil explorers are searching everywhere on the globe.

Anyway, the leaders or kings ruling a place where this precious metal was mined and traded, got wealthy and migthy and it is not astonishing therefore, that the first dynasty of Egypt was developing in this area.


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Posts: 782 | From: Schwabenheim, Germany | Registered: Sep 2002   

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Ulf Richter

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   posted 02-06-2005 12:08 PM                   
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The boat with high prow and stern of the Phaistod disk and the Gebel el Arak knife is also depicted on the Narmer pallet (above right), perhaps it has something to do with the dead enemies?
http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.toutankharton.com/images/prehistoire/nagadaii_petite.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.toutankharton.com/egyptologie/prehistoire.php&h=187&w=1 61&sz=9&tbnid=HHtKIo8PnBsJ:&tbnh=96&tbnw=83&start=42&prev=/images%3Fq%3DNaqada%
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Posts: 782 | From: Schwabenheim, Germany | Registered: Sep 2002   

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Boreas
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   posted 02-06-2005 04:09 PM                   
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6.200 year old carving of ship.
From the famous mesolittic site at Alta, the western neighbour to The North Cape.
http://www.imv.uit.no/ommuseet/enheter/ark/forskning_Alta.htm
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Posts: 433 | From: Namsos, Norway | Registered: Jan 2004   

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Ulf Richter

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   posted 02-10-2005 02:55 AM                   
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Boreas,
thank you for the interesting link. In the "Tribes of Atlantis II" thread you provided also a link which shows a lot of old pictures of the ships with high prow and stern, which probably the Libyans have used to sail to Egypt:
http://freepages.history.rootsweb.com/~catshaman/15Sailors/05sailors1.htm


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Posts: 782 | From: Schwabenheim, Germany | Registered: Sep 2002   

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Smiley4554

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  posted 02-14-2005 10:13 AM                   
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If the Egyptologists stop @ 3500 BC, and go no further back, and since we have evidence of older civilizations as far back as 6000 BC, then it would appear that they do really have their heads in the sand.
Why? Well it is possible that the reason they want to go no further back is simply because if they do (and they may already know this to be true) they will have to admit that their civilization which appeared almost overnite were not the only advanced civilization to have lived in Egypt.


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Posts: 6724 | From: Arkansas...USA | Registered: Jan 2001   

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Ulf Richter

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   posted 03-18-2005 02:15 PM                   
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Smiley,
you are right that the archeologists don´t pay enough attention to the cultures, which were the forerunners of the first dynasty in Egypt. Flinders Petrie , who detected the Naquada culture 3500 - 3100 BC, was the great exception.


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Posts: 782 | From: Schwabenheim, Germany | Registered: Sep 2002   

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Smiley4554

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  posted 03-21-2005 09:00 AM                   
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Naquada? I'll admit that I hadn't heard about that one.
http://www2.ida.net/graphics/shirtail/1912.htm

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...(Petrie) discovered many cemeteries on the western bank of the Nile, between the districts of Naquada and Ballas, the contents of which differed considerably from those of other graves in Egypt, and which he therefore regarded not as Egyptian but as belonging probably to a Lybian race." One of the remarkable differences was the posture of the buried dead. With few exceptions up to this time the dead were found lying on their backs or on their sides at full length, the bodies found by Dr. Petrie in the districts named were "doubled up, the knees drawn up, the hands before the face, and lying on the left side ... The funeral objects were peculiar." These considerations led Dr. Petrie to conclude that the race they represented was not Egyptian, A year later, however, the French Egyptologist Prof. E. Amelineau made discoveries of a similar character in the "rubbish mounds known as Umm el-Ga'ab, near the ancient, sacred city of Abydos." "The tombs of the kings of Abydos," remarks Prof. Steindorff, "being purely Egyptian (as the inscriptions found in them prove,) it naturally follows that the civilization brought to light through these tombs is also Egyptian, and does not belong to another people as Petrie at first assumed."
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http://artsales.com/ARTistory/Ancient_Ships/02_edpetros.html
Scroll about 1/2 way down to see some period pieces discovered.

So it really comes down to this. Was this culture not Egyptian?


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Posts: 6724 | From: Arkansas...USA 

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docyabut
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Rate Member   posted 03-21-2005 11:36 AM                   
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Smiley, heres a 5000 years old vase.
Decorated with an unusual burial scene, it had been considered a fake, as it was "too good to be true". The decoration on the vase shows a figure on a boat, lying on its back and curled in the foetal position. This is how some early Egyptians may have been buried before mummification was introduced.

Was the figure really a egyptain?
http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/this_britain/story.jsp?story=548420

 

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Ulf Richter

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   posted 03-26-2005 04:47 PM                   
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The remnants of the so called Naquada culture show many pictures of ships, painted on pottery or carved into rock walls:
http://www.artsales.com/ARTistory/Ancient_Ships/02_edpetros.html
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Posts: 782 | From: Schwabenheim, Germany | Registered: Sep 2002   

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José María de la Rosa

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Rate Member   posted 08-15-2005 12:10 AM                   
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Just bumping this thread up... This Topic is deserved to be in front page also. If Riven yet it can do it topics that like... and it is allowed... I also have right...

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Greetings, José M. de la Rosa."had for his portion the extremity (ακρας) of the island nearer (προς) of the Pillars of Hercules (Gibraltar), in (on, upon) the part of the country now called Gadeira(Cadiz)"

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Posts: 372 | Registered: Jul 2005  |

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José María de la Rosa

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Rate Member   posted 08-15-2005 09:03 AM                   
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Dear Ulf...

I believe that nobody could doubt that Libya has been part of Atlantis.

Is described in Plato of very clear way, and in addition, other authors like Siculus, also say it...

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Greetings, José M. de la Rosa."had for his portion the extremity (ακρας) of the island nearer (προς) of the Pillars of Hercules (Gibraltar), in (on, upon) the part of the country now called Gadeira(Cadiz)"

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Ulf Richter

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   posted 08-15-2005 02:25 PM                   
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In the paper of Ulrich Hofmann for the Milos Conference he writes about rock carvings of chariots in western North Africa.
This shows that the Lybian tribes used chariots already in very early times.

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Ulf

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Posts: 782 | From: Schwabenheim, Germany | Registered: Sep 2002