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Helios
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« Reply #60 on: February 12, 2009, 10:31:11 pm »

Quote
The flood of Deukalion would be the main flood remembered by Greeks which the Egyptian priest also commented that this was the only deluge remembered by the greeks.

Yes, the Egyptian priest clearly states that the Greeks only have memory of the flood of Deucalion, and no other.  Obviously, the Atlantis flood was many years prior to Deucalion, even in the context of Timaeus.

Quote
If your basement is flooding through your floor drain, a backwater valve should remedy the problem,although I am sure you are already aware of that.


Thanks for the suggestion, I will look into it.
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"This power came forth out of the Atlantic Ocean, for in those days the Atlantic was navigable; and there was an island situated in front of the straits called the Pillars of Heracles; the island was larger than Libya and Asia put together..."
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« Reply #61 on: February 13, 2009, 10:30:25 pm »

Here's an excellent site on Libya called Temehu.

Brief history & prehistory of Libya

http://www.temehu.com/History-of-Libya.htm#Libyan-Tannit

The Temehu tribes of Ancient Libya

http://www.temehu.com/Temehu.htm

Quote:

The Delta was called Tameh'et , one interpretation of which is 'the lotus land', just as pictured by its hieroglyph of three lotus flowers rising from a circle (the sign for 'city'). In connection with Meh' , a mention must be made of the Seven Wise Ones of the goddess Meh'-urt , who came from water at the feet of Nu or Nun, and who, in very early times, resided over the “ weighing of words ” in the Hall of Meh'-urt and thus rightly identified with Libyan Maat and Neith . This simple fact was known to many scholars and Egyptologists, like Sir Alan Gardiner who has noted that the name of the Libyan tribe Temeh'w means “ Lower Egypt ” as well as the “ Delta ” , whence mh's “ the crown of Lower Egypt ” . The ancient Egyptian Timhy (Tymhy) Stone of Wawat, found in one of the Egyptian lists of royal gifts, may indicate that the stones were of a particular type purveyed to the Egyptian by the Temehu. G. W. Murray (The Road to Chephren's Quarries) relates that the Temehu Libyans were employed in the labour gangs at the quarries; while other sources affirmed that the Temehu were famous for being skilled stone workers and that the monuments built of polygonal masonry in Cyrenaica were the work of the Temehu people whom often referred to as “the Westerners” ('those who dwell west of the Nile'). The name was also mentioned as Henet-Temehu , the princess daughter of Thenet-Hep , the wife of Ahmose I, which further illustrates the Libyan element in the Egyptian dynasties.

The Libyan struggle to free the taken land of Neith is pre-dynastic in nature, and their recent pact with the maritime bandits, who came to plunder Egypt as others had done before and after, was no more than another tactic in their long war against the armies of the conquering pharaohs. There was never such a thing as Libyan Invasion (or invasions); they only appear so if they were mentioned in isolation, by the enemy, of course. To be fairer to the truth, from the extant preserved material one can safely ascertain the pharaohs to have been the invaders of the region, who, as told by their own history, forcibly unified Libyan Lower Egypt and Nubian Upper Egypt into what is known as Egypt: the House of Libyan Ptah. This was the subject of several studies including the one presented at The Symposium On " Libya Antiqua " , held in Paris between the 16th and the 18th of January 1984, and titled: " The Tehenu In The Egyptian Records " . The paper, written by A.H.S. El-Mosallamy and prepared at the request of the Unesco, told us nothing we do not already know, but nonetheless it was a recent summary of the basic facts put forward in the last century by Petrie, Breasted, Bates, Galassi, Maspero, Borchardt and many others whom history had practically forgotten, and was largely drawn from the ancient records preserved by Eratosthenes, Manetho, Plutarch, Plato, Herodotus, Diodorus and the ancient Egyptian records, as those of the pyramid papyri of Berber Unas (or Unis: the god who swallowed all the gods).

The pre-dynastic existence of the Temehu and the Tehenu is ascertained from several facts, the most important of which is the Palermo Stone , the oldest document in the world, which preserves a long list of pre-Dynastic Libyan kings & queens of Lower Egypt before its invasion by the pharaohs. The Delta city of Sais was the centre of the worship of the Libyan Goddess Neith and most scholars generally agree that the inhabitants of Sais were mostly of Libyan Berber origin. Other Libyan Delta cults included those of the Libyan Cat-Goddess Bast at Bubastis, and Osiris & Isis at Buziris, who went on to dominate the Egyptian and Roman pantheons, and even survive to the present day in Europe as the secret cults of Isis & Osiris. It is therefore generally concluded that the Berber Tehenu tribes were the natives of the Egyptian Delta long before the menace of Menes , who forcibly unified Egypt and invaded the Tehenu territories in the north and the Temehu's and Nubian's in the south about 3100 BC (or 3400 BC according to other sources).


Then we have the Egyptian pre-dynastic records such as the inscriptions found in Neith's temples, showing the usual Libyan signs and Neith's tattoos as well as the names of queens and princesses, which usually contained the element Net or Nit; Narmer's ivory cylinder commemorating his so called victory over the Libyans; the pre-dynastic Kerki knife bearing similar representations of pre-dynastic Libyans as those of the later Egyptians; and, of course, the name " Tehenu " itself, found on King Scorpion's statue (ca. 3300 BC), from which respected Egyptologists convincingly deduced that the struggle between the ancient Libyans and the Egyptians goes back to pre-dynastic times, as pointed out by both Breasted (1906) and Bates (1914), and also to the beginning of the Northern Kingdom of the Delta when the invading pharaohs were forcibly trying to unify the two kingdoms: the northern Libyan Lower Egypt and the southern Nubian Upper Egypt. This means that if the wars of the Tehenu-Temehu and the Egyptians were pre-dynastic, then the existence of the Tehenu and the Temehu people in Egypt surely goes even farther back in time.

This conclusion is also supported, in addition to the above Egyptian genealogy which classifies all Libyans as Temehu or Temehw (e.g., modern Temaheq or Tuareg), by the fact that several scholars generally agree that the Egyptians always referred to the Tehenu and the Temehu with titles indicating their nativity to the region and not as foreigners; and by the fact that the Egyptians were indeed very careful not adopt any foreign gods and as such their adoption of the Libyan Neith, Amon, Bast, Sekhmet, Set and many others is a strong indicator that they did not consider the Libyans as " foreigners " . The established Libyan royal line of kings and queens in the Delta during and after the invasions of Menes, and the disputed royal lines of the Palermo Stone, are also a good example of this. Of course, there is one thing almost everyone fails to mention, and that is there is hardly any serious studies exploring Libyan history and as such Libyan history remains to be written. If the amount of work and volumes produced in relation to Egypt or Greece were also produced in relation to Libya, a totally new world would emerge from the bottom of the Libyan desert.

Hence Neith's Temple in the Delta (at Sais) bore the name of " House of the king of Lower Egypt " , and the Egyptian " uraeus " serpent was deduced, from a scene of four Libyans in Sahure's temple at Abusir, to have been descended from an early Libyan king of the Delta. In addition to the Delta, the Tehenu of Lower Egypt were also the inhabitant of the Fayyum and the other oases of the region. In fact, these Berber oases were not invaded by the pharoahs until the time of the New Empire, and were not totally colonised by the pharaohs until the time of Ramses III, aginst whom the Libyans became known for their attacks on Egypt. Breasted asserts that these oases dwellers, from which the Egyptians of Hatshepsut extracted much tribute, were none other than the Libyan Tehenu of the Delta. The Temehu's territories, however, began immediately south of the Tehenu's and extended all the way down to Middle Nubia - an area where Oric Bates, during his short life, conducted an extensive study of its cemeteries and came to conclude that the Nubians and the Libyans were more related than previously thought, and thus the Temehu Berbers were also known to archaeologists as " the C-Group of Nubia " . Even today, the Arabs of modern Egypt call the Nubians " Barabera " .


From the first dynasty onwards the Libyans continued their attempts to reclaim Lower Egypt. During the start of the dynastic period the name Tehenu was found inscribed on the Narmar (or Narmer) Plate and also reappeared during the second and the third dynasties (2778- 2723 BC), when, according to Manetho, the Libyans continued the struggle against the invading pharaohs and particularly against the pharaoh Nefer-Ka-Re. Then during the fourth dynasty the pharaoh Snefru reportedly took 11,000 Libyans as prisoners of war. All these facts are not a figment of the imagination but an important part of human's early history, which has been largely ignored and even suppressed. In fact the wars were so rife during this early period that they were brought to a temporary lull during the Old Kingdom by king Khufu (Greek Cheops), the second king of the 4th Dynasty (ca. 2613-2494 BC) and the builder of the great pyramid of Giza. Apparently king Khufu married a Libyan princess in order to bring peace to the region so that he could concentrate on his monumental work.

" Bringing peace to the region " , " during the building of the great pyramid of Giza " , " so that he can concentrate on his work " is not a sign of 'menace', but a powerful indicator of the long conflict between the Libyans and Egyptians right from the start, and long before the recent Shishenq and Tefnakht returned to continue the work of the ancestors!

Khufu's attempts, however, were not fully successful, as we are told that both the kings Sahu-Ra and Ni-User-Ra (of the fifth dynasty) continued to brag about defeating the Libyan armies and about the bounty they brought as offerings to their divine fathers. This means that the wars were almost continuous from pre-dynastic times right down to the Middle Kingdom (ca. 2200-1700 BC), during which the Egyptian pharaohs managed to regain the upper hand and extracted tribute from the Libyans; and as a result a large number of Berbers served in the army of the pharaohs, and some even rose to high positions in the palace; probably, eventually leading the Libyans to regain control over Egypt about (ca. 945 BC), when the Libyan Berber king Shishenq succeeded in establishing the 22nd Dynasty and thereby starting what narrow-minded Egyptologists know as " The Libyan Period " . The ancient Temehu tribes were among the allied tribes of the powerful Berber Meshwash (Meshwesh), the subjects of Shishenq, who ransacked Jerusalem during his reign as king of Egypt. The fact that the allied tribes included several Berber groups, like the Ribu and the Tehenu of eastern Libya, illustrates a common cause to liberate rather than invade one's land. A few dynasties later, Berber Tefnakht , the chieftain of Neith's Sais and the king and founder of the 24th dynasty (722 - 715 BC), attempted to gain control over the whole of Egypt; but after acquiring Memphis and proceeding southward to Heracleopolis, he was met by the Cushite Piankhi and eventually lost in 713–712 BC to Shabaka, the founder of the Nubian 25th dynasty.

And then, there is another interesting point rarely mentioned but by a few respected scholars: the pharaohs were in the habit of chiseling out most of the references they did not wish to survive and thus censorship is not that new. They were also in the habit of inscribing only their victories and rarely had the courage to catalogue their defeats and therefore all the references to the Libyans were closely tied to the word: " defeat " . Expectedly, there was no mention of Libyan victory (or victories). For instance we have evidence showing the blunt removal of the name of the Libyan God Amen from several stone engravings after the Akhnaten revolution, during which Amen was replaced by Aten. To refer to this rich period of Berber history as " the Libyan invasion " does not necessarily represent the truth, and it is strongly advised that students of Libya should always refrain from depending on established sources alone. [A good example of this is the Palermo Stone saga!]

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« Reply #62 on: February 15, 2009, 04:55:12 am »

DECODING HERODOTUS BY AEJOR MN (PAULO RIVEN)

Herodotus: 11,340.yrs = 341.kings based on 3 generations = 100.yrs(33.33)
341/3 = 113.67 gen.X 100.yrs = 11,367.yrs
11,367 + 526.= 11,893.bC.

Menes = 244 kings = 81.33 gen. x 100 = 8,133.yrs
8,133 + 526 = 8,659.bC.

Modern record.
3200(Menes) - 526 = 2,674.yrs/244 = 10.96.yrs per king

Herodotus; -341 X 10.96 = 3737.36 + 526 = 4263.36.bC.
Turin Canon-279 x 10.96 = 3057.84 + 526 = 3583.84.bC.(35 missing kings prior Menes)
   "   "   -254 x 10.96 = 2783.84 + 526 = 3309.84 (10 missing kings prior Menes)
   "   "   -244 x 10.96 = 2674.24 + 526 = 3200.24

2.79 error factor for Herodotus.(11,893/4263.36)

Psammetic III = 526.bC.
Amassis = 570.bC.

PLATO'S ATLANTIS;

Plato Athens,Greece founding = 9,000.yrs./2.79 = 3225.81.yrs
Plato Sais,Egypt founding = 8,000.yrs./2.79 = 2867.38.yrs

3225.81 + 570 = 3795.81.bC...Athen's Greece founded (Athena)
2867.38 + 570 = 3437.38.bC...Sais,Lower Egypt founded (Neith)

------------------------------------------------------
EUSEBIUS AND MANETHO

24,900 lunar / 2206 solar = 11.29 factor of conversion from Lunar to Solar

GODS; Ptah(Hephaestus) to Bidis-13,900 lunar years(30 day months) - /11.29 = 1231.2 solar years

DEMI-GODS;..........................1,255 / 11.29 = 111.16
OTHER KINGS;......................1,817 / 11.29 = 160.94
30 MEMPHIS KINGS;.............1,790 / 11.29 = 158.55
10 THINIS KINGS;.....................350 / 11.29 = 31
SHADES AND DEMI GODS;...5,813 / 11.29 = 514.9

TOTAL;.................11,025 / 11.29 = 976.55 solar
GODS;.................13,900 / 11.29 = 1231.2

TOTAL ....24,925 / 11.29 = 2207.75 SOLAR YEARS

PTAH....HEPHAESTUS
AMON....SOL (SUN)
THOTH...AGATHODAEMON (HERMES)
GEB.....CRONUS
OSIRIS..ZEUS DIONYSIOS
SET.....TYPHON
HORUS...APOLLO
KINGS
BIDIS
--------------------------------------------------------

ATLANTEAN CHRONOLOGIES BY AEJOR MN (PAULO RIVEN)

AETERNAL FATHER CREATOR AEJON..6482.bc
2ND GARDEN OF CREATION..................6435....Tansania,Avila(Africa)
_________________________________________________________________

EGYPTIAN GODS..1231.2.yrs..5495.bC(Hephaestus)..(2242 CHALDEAN YEARS TO FLOOD)
__________________________________________________________________

+87.KINGS.(954yrs)..DEMI-GODS....4264...-Atlantean Delta Empire
......................................................4241...-Egyptian Calendar
......................................................3795....Athen's Greece founded
......................................................3437...-Sais founded,Delta
.........................................Atlantean war begins.........................
254.KINGS......................................3310...-Atlantean Libyan Mareia,Delta,L.E.3rd nome

........Atlantean war ends,Atlantis island sinks,mediterranean cultures perish.................
__________________________________________________________________

*********DELUGE FLOOD................3253.bC....DELUGE FLOOD************
__________________________________________________________________
Pharaoh Menes.(244th)...................3200...-Egyptian Dynasty I,Upper Egypt
Psammetic III...................................526.bC.
..........................................................0....Jesus The Son of God
.........................................Feb.15th,2009.aD.(8491.aJA)..today's date.
__________________________________________________________________
341 Kings(Herodotus)

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« Reply #63 on: February 15, 2009, 06:58:43 pm »

Here is a good website that I found today which will answer most of your geological or scientific questions of why I propose the biblical flood to 3253.bC. In the course of my research two key dates stand out,6482.bC and 3253.bC which ironicaly in either event,the Heckla Volcano erupted around each era. It shows a cycle of 3229 years for great catastrophes upon Earth perhaps caused by a slight earthshift or stall of rotation. Herodotus stated that the egyptian priests of Heliopolis told him that in the span of some 11,000 years, that twice the sun set where it rose and rose where it set. Since it is us who revolve around the sun,then this phenomena can only be caused by one of those two events mentioned above. In either event,egypt was spared from great catastrophes which is why we look to them for historical records that were able to survive when others had to start over like children.

Herodotus also mentioned that he noted seashells and salt stains on the pyramids which also indicates evidence for a great flood and that the pyramid was built prior to this flood.

Something that Robert Schoch and John West should have accounted for in their dating research of the sphinx which would have accelerated the erosion.


Climate, Culture, and Catastrophe in the Ancient World

http://www.stanford.edu/~meehan/donnellyr/summary.html

What on Earth Happened in 3200 BC?

http://www.stanford.edu/~meehan/donnellyr/paleo.html

3000 BC: A Scientific Index, sorted by chronological time

http://www.stanford.edu/~meehan/donnellyr/3000ind.html

 
13000 Global, End of Ice Age (warmer)
10500 Global, Younger Dryas (colder)
9500 Global, Younger Dryas (warmer)
8100 Global, Severe cold snap (colder)
8000  Eden in Egypt (warm)
6200 Greenland, Donnelly Atlantis (cold)
6000 mesopotamia, Mesopotamia delta (sea level)
5000 Global, GISP2 team, the latest from (cold)
4850 California, Warmest time, (bristlecone pines,) (warm)
4500 Territorial control and mound building (warm)
4000 Ireland, Irish elm decline (cold)
4000 Europe, Atlantic hypsithermal (warm)
4000  Holocene delta development worldwide (sea level)
4000 Mesopotamia, Mesopotamia delta (sea level)
4000 Mesopotamia, Sea level, Persian Gulf (sea level)
3700 Mesopotamia, Burrows' flood, (flood)
3600 California, Central coast (warm, dry)
3500 Europe, Upper treeline in alps (cold)
3500 Europe, Early agriculture (archeology)
3500  Han River delta (sea level)
3500 China, Han River delta (sea level)
3500 Fiji, Fiji sea level (sea level)
3500 Mesopotamia, Leonard Woolley's flood (flood)
3500 Morocco, Arid interval (dry)
3500 mesopotamia, Tigris and Euphrates alluvial plain (sea level)
3500 Global, Holocene delta development worldwide (sea level)
3500 South Carolina, South Carolina sea level (sea level)
3400 Egypt, Pharoah Sneferu at Meydum (archeology)
3400 Mississippi, Mississippi delta (flood)
3300 Europe, Belgian coast (sea level)
3300 Global, July summer cooling, Soviet Union (cold)
3300 California, Mid Holocene wet (warm, cold)
3300 California, San Francisquito Bay (sea level)
3270 New England, Elm collapse (cold)
3250 Europe, Piora oscillation, Europe (flood)
3250 Europe, Newgrange start (archeology)
3250 Global, Atmospheric methane (cold, warm)
3250 Global, Sulfate in GISP2 (cold)
3250 Global, Stormy weather (flood)
3250 Egypt, Egypt Nile delta (sea level)
3250 New England, Hemlock decline New England (cold)
3250 Florida, Pine bursts (cold)
3250 Peru, Huascaran glacier (cold)
3250 California, Santa Barbara basin off the coast (cold)
3212 Europe, French coastal megaliths (archeology)
3200 Ireland, Cessair (flood myth)
3200 Mesopotamia, Tigris-Euphratres (warm, dry)
3200 Missouri', Pomme de Terre River (flood)
3199 Europe, Irish oaks (cold)
3190 Global, Heckla eruption, Iceland (cold)
3160 California, Sunnyvale girl (archeology)
3150 Europe, Iceman of the Alps (cold)
3150 Global, Sulphate spike (cold)
3150 Greenland, Camp Century, Greenland (cold)
3150 Global, Paleoclimatic flood, global (flood)
3150 Turkey, Lake Van Oscillation (flood)
3150 USA, SW, SW US flood peak (flood)
3113 Mexico, Mayan recreation (flood myth)
3110 China, Yangtze River (flood)
3100 Europe, Stonehenge (start) (archeology)
3100 Greenland, GISP ice core (warm, cold, warm)
3100 Egypt, Egypt, Unification (archeology)
3100 Nebraska, Republican River, (flood)
3100 California, Sierra cooling (cold)
3100 USA, End of alluvial period (dry, warm)
3100 Boston, Sticks from fish wier (warm, cold, sea level)
3090 Egypt, Egypt, Nile (flood)
3075 Ireland, Newgrange Megalithic Tomb (archeology)
3075 Ireland, Newgrange Megalithic Tomb (archeology)
3050 Europe, Brittany coast emerges (sea level)
3050 Greenland, Methane peak, (cold)
3050 Canada, Devon Island (cold)
3020 California, Stanford Man II (archeology)
3001 Israel, Mt. Sedom (warm, flood)
3000 Europe, Carnac Megaliths (archeology)
3000 Europe, Wooden tracks (archeology)
3000 China, Tibet, Sumxi Lake (warm, dry)
3000 Peru, Onset of ENSO (warm, flood)
3000 Global, Radiocarbon base has tripled (archeology)
3000 Global, Sea level stillstands (sea level)
3000 Mesopotamia, Natural Catastrophes during Bronze Age (archeology)
3000 Mesopotamia, Sumerians in Mesopotamia (archeology)
3000 Israel, Ancient Egyptians in Palestine (archeology)
3000 Sahara, Canoes and elephants (warm)
3000 Egypt, Sumerian influences on Egypt (archeology)
3000 Louisiana, Native American mounds (archeology)
3000 USA, W, General wetting Western U.S (dry, warm)
3000 California, Bristlecone pines (cold)
3000 Wyoming, Ancient French Trapper (archeology)
3000 Oregon, Diamond Pond, (dry, warm)
3000 California, California hunter-gath transition (archeology)
2970 Europe, Floods in Netherlands (flood)
2900 Global, Huang Ho River (flood)
2900 Mesopotamia, Mesopotamian flood (flood)
2800 Mesopotamia, The Flood and Noah's Ark (flood)
2800 California, Summer warming, (warm)
2700 Mesopotamia, Gilgamesh, king of Uruk (archeology)
2700 Nevada, Woodrat midden, (dry, cold)
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« Reply #64 on: February 15, 2009, 11:33:40 pm »

Greetings, friend Riven, good to see you posting again:

Quote
The Libyan struggle to free the taken land of Neith is pre-dynastic in nature, and their recent pact with the maritime bandits, who came to plunder Egypt as others had done before and after, was no more than another tactic in their long war against the armies of the conquering pharaohs.


This is fascinating as it reminds me of the Hyksos, who have been presumed to be both the Atlanteans of myth as well as a Jewish people (see the recent new theory on the Exodus).  The fact that they also had something to do with freeing the land of Neith (Neith being the foundress of Sais, where Plato is said to have first heard the Atlantis tale) only adds to that slendid hypothesis.

Sarah
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"If I forget thee, O Jerusalem, may my right hand fail..." - King David, Psalms 137:5

http://www.zwoje-scrolls.com/shoah/index.html

http://www.holocaustchronicle.org/
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« Reply #65 on: February 17, 2009, 07:18:29 pm »

Hi Sarah,thanks.

That is if people apply the Atlantean war or the Exodus in the period of the Hyksos.
It is clear in Plato's works that there was a great deluge that occured before deukalion's flood which varies from 1529-1450.bC
My understanding is that before this great deluge was the atlantean war and then the war ended where the greeks were victorious and everyone went back home. Then there occured this great deluge that sank Atlantis in the Atlantic ocean and also wiped out Athens.
This appears clear as to the magnitude of that event which effected the entire mediterranean that could have over ran the red sea and flooded the euphrates valley also where babylon and uruk are. Which concludes that this greatest deluge must also have been the biblical deluge which was said to have been the 3rd flood before deukalions.


3795.bC...Attica(Athens) founded 9000 years prior to Solon (years = generations= 2.79 conversion)

3437......Sais,Egypt founded 8000 years prior to Solon

Huh?......Atlantean War begins

Huh?......Atlantean war ends,Greeks victorious,countries liberated

3253..(3).Great Flood(biblical),mediterranean event,Atlantis sinks,Athens destroyed,Euphrates valley flooded

3200......Egypt Unified,Phoenicia,(Tyre,Byblos,Sidon),Babylon,Nineveh,Uruk,Akkad,Malta,Crete etc, cities arise.

1754..(2).Flood of Ogyges(Eusebius,Africanus)

1628..(1).Santorini,Thera Volcanic eruption, Flood

Huh?......Actaeon 1st king of Athens
1582......Cecrops -an Egyptian king of Athens
1574......Deukalion-king of thessaly

1529..(0).Deukalion's Flood

1522......Amphictyon-king of Athens after deukalion's flood

570.......Solon visits Sais(ca.564)-Atlantis legend revealed

450.......Herodotus Histories

420.......Critias II in possession of Atlantis writing from Dropides

399.......Socrates poisoned

360.......Plato writes Timaeus and Critias account of Atlantis

..0.......Jesus The Son of God

350.aD....Chalcidius preserves Timaeus in Latin
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« Reply #66 on: February 18, 2009, 12:34:21 am »

This is very good work, Riven!  How do you arrive at 3400 for the date of the Atlantean war and what event do you choose that leads to to cataclysm that Plato wrote about?
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« Reply #67 on: February 18, 2009, 12:36:04 am »

If you do not mind, I should like to start a separate topic on "Climate, Culture, and Catastrophe in the Ancient World" using your Stanford information.  It is a very good reference.
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« Reply #68 on: February 18, 2009, 10:05:15 pm »

Hi Georgium;

I don't know the exact date of the war, but I have it trapped between the founding of Sais,3437.bC and the Biblical flood at 3253.bC.

I have been saying for many years now that the Atlantean war occured prior to Pharaoh Menes or 3200.bC because the countries were liberated after the war and relics like the narmer palette,tehenu palette,gebel el arak knife,tomb 100 map and my cycladic stone map of atlantis all date around 3000-3500.bC and remind us of the war.

My paper,Flight of a kings golden sandals in my secret of the 9000 years thread takes a close look at kings reigns for Egypt,Babylon and Phoenicia and how herodotus interpretated 11,340 years for 341 kings which when compared to our modern egyptian king records revealed a conversion factor of 2.79.

Meaning that like the 10 patriarchs of bible who are more than 8000 years old in an actual timespan of 1656 years, so it is also that the 11,340 years of herodotus which also was spoken of in generations is actualy only some 4064 years in terms of kings reigns as compared to our modern record of egyptian kings.

That means that the 9000 and 8000 years of plato are dated at 3795 and 3437.bC.

In egyptology or archaeolgy sais was founded before 3000.bC.

We know from the Atlantean story that the war took place after the founding of Athens and Sais because the Egyptian priest said that they were going to be attacked also and that this war occured before the greatest deluge of all which was also before the deukalion flood ca 1529.

Which according to the story the war would be anywhere between 8570.bC-1529.bC, if you don't include my meaning for the 9000 years. The other clue is that the critias describes a bronze age civilization and not a stone age culture so too say.

In any case,the war was fought before the greatest deluge of all before the flood of deukalion.
Then the greeks won the war and liberated all the countries as is written.
Then afterwards there occured the greatest deluge of all which not only sank Atlantis in the atlantic ocean in front of the pillars of hercules, but also the athenians were flooded and disappered into the mud as is written.

This concludes the magnitude of this greatest deluge which also reflects the magnitude of the biblical flood that I date to 3253.bC and appears to be the key event around the war and coincidently happens to fit right between 3200.bC and my new date for Sais.

Also plato tells us about 10 antedeluvian kings and the ending of critias also reflects the anger of zeus when he destroyed deukalion which is a spin off of the oldest flood story from nippur tablets ca2100.bC as the hebrews also absorbed into their flood story of 2350.bC.

neither the deukalion 1529 or the hebrew flood 2350 is the biblical flood.

That's a good idea for a thread Georgium, I don't have a right to mind since it is Stanford's info. Smiley

Thanks.
« Last Edit: February 18, 2009, 10:13:04 pm by Paulo Riven » Report Spam   Logged

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« Reply #69 on: February 18, 2009, 10:59:12 pm »

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
As I have demonstrated - beyond any reasonable doubt as possible - the Athenians were already 9000 years old when the war began. In the Timaeus 23, it is clear that the age of Athens was 9000 years and that of Sais, in 8000, always before the visit of Solon. Ie, when Sais Solon visit and talks with the Egyptian priests and Sais had over 8000 years since its founding, and Athens was 9000 years.

The war begins with the start of the ninth millennium, ie approximately 1000 years before the conversation between Solon and the Egyptian priests. Because they were in the eighth millennium of the history of Sais, in the ninth millennium to the history of Athens.-Georgeos Diaz Montexano
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

9000 years before Solon or 9570.bC is the only time available in the Atlantis story.
In other words at the end of the 8th millenium because you don't count milleniums until 1000 years have passed by. Centuries are 100 years. 8000 years before Solon is when Sais was founded.

This is why we cannot say that 9000 years passed by and then a war took place in the 9th millenimum towards Solon (backwards),because the war would be happening at the same time Solon and the priest were talking about Atlantis or 570.bC. We only have 9000 years of time before Solon. If you don't get to the store by 9pm you can't get any pudding!


9000.yrs before Solon___8000ybS___war____war ends____deluge_____deukalion_______solon570.bc


9___(Cool_____8__(7)___7__(6)___6__(5)____5__(4)___4___(3)___3__(2)____2__(1)___1_________0


0___________1__(1)___2__(2)___3__(3)____4__(4)___5__(5)____6__(6)____7__(7)___8___(Cool___9

Athens______Sais__________________________________________georgeo's war__1570.bc_______9

(1) = milleniums = 1000 years

This is not to discredit your theory Georgeos of the war occuring ca1570.bC, but to be correct you would have to say your war(1570.bC) occured in the end of the 7th millenium or beginning of the 8th millenium "towards solon" because the 9th millenium starts where solon is at 570.bC.

This further proves that the translators made a mistake of Critias 108e by leaving the impression that 9000 years had passed since the war when the story begins with the founding of Athens 9000 years ago.
As I told you,if you say the war was in the 9th millenium "towards solon",then Athens would be 10,000 years before solon because your war is 1000 years before solon. We only have 9000 years to play with Georgeos which ends at the end of the 8th millenium.

People are saying this because of the sentence in Critias 108e which reads;

"Let me begin by observing first of all, that nine thousand was the sum of years which had elapsed [since] the war which was said to have taken place between those who dwelt outside the Pillars of Heracles and all who dwelt within them; this war I am going to describe."-Jowett

[108e] Now first of all we must recall the fact that 9000 is the sum of years [since] the war occurred, as is recorded, between the dwellers beyond the pillars of Heracles and all that dwelt within them2 ; which war we have now to relate in detail.-W.R.M.Lamb - Perseus Tufts

[108e] pantôn dê prôton mnêsthômen hoti to kephalaion ên enakischilia etê, [aph'] hou gegonôs emênuthê polemos tois th' huper Hêrakleias stêlas exô katoikousin kai tois entos pasin: hon dei nun diaperainein.

the entire-exactness-foremost-remind-anyone-that-of the head-existed-9000-years-[aph']-that-came into being-to disclose-war-beyond-heracles-stones-out-dwell in-and-that-inside-the whole-that-is binding on-at this very time-of thorough discussion

[aphthar]- I-incorruption,immortality II-integrity,sincerity

First of all,to remind us of the entire exactness that was 9000 years in all sincerity that had become,to disclose the war of all those outside from beyond the stones of heracles and all those who dwelled inside which entirely is dependant now on a throrough discussion.-Riven translation

or we could also say;

First of all, to remind us of the entire exactness that was 9000 years since it(the years) had become, to disclose the war....

Jowett is closer by saying "observing" rather than lamb who says "it is a fact" for the term "entire exactness" which as the end of the sentence also suggests that the exactness is dependant of a thorough investigation or discussion which later would provide a suggestive date for the war and not that 9000 years had passed since the war took place.


I think the problem is that the translators connected the war[since/aph'] with the 9000 years rather than leaving it as two separate phrases that would say
9000 years was the total years that passed by and during those 9000 years a war occured.

This is part of the beginning sentence where critias expresses that he wishes to recall from memory the exact particulars of the entire 9000 years and at which point the war may have occured.

Which we discover that the war happened and ended in the time of a greater destruction that was prior to deukalion's flood and we realize the war also happened after the founding of Sais so it could not have occured in the time of Athens being founded at the end of the 8th
millenium before Solon or 9000 years.


Also, the biblical flood was not the hebrew flood of 2350.bC nor was it deukalion's flood of 1529.

Deukalion became king of Thessaly 8 years after Cecropes became king of Athens.

1582 cecropes
1574 deukalion
1529 flood of deukalion

There was no major destruction before deukalion in that time until Santorini ca.1628,so in all likeness,the only destruction Cecropes would have faced must have been the flood of deukalion.

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« Reply #70 on: February 19, 2009, 01:12:28 am »

Riven, I have been following your post and still don't quite "get" it.  Clearly, Plato states that the war occurred 9000 years before Solon. Why then do you pick only the third millenium for the Atlantean/Athens war to take place? Why do you believe Plato to be in error?

Nine thousand years, in any event, would seem to be a long time to pass on an oral tradition.
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« Reply #71 on: February 19, 2009, 02:22:28 am »

I'd go with the more recent time frame.  I have yet to see anyone come up with a plausible explanation on how a story can be passed on by oral tradition alone accurately over nine thousand years.
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« Reply #72 on: February 19, 2009, 03:35:05 pm »

Guardian of Truth;

I don't believe Plato to be in error, rather the translators as I tried to explain in the post above about the error of why we think the war occured 9000 years before Solon. The story begins to the founding of Athens 9000 years before Solon or 9570.bC. 1000 years after Sais was founded. Both the Greeks and Egyptians were involved in the war since the priest said that the Atlanteans attacked them also.
Obviously the war could not have occured 9000 years before Solon which reflects that there must be an error with the sentence in Critias by the translators that say, the war occured since 9000 years ago. I believe Plato's intent in that sentence was that the "exact particulars of the whole" 9000 years that had passed and when the war occured can be further revealed by intense discussion.

I also believe Plato is correct with the 9000 year statement which he left upto us to discover the "meaning" of those years. Unlike Herodotus who told us that he was speaking in terms of generations for his 341 Egyptian kings who total 11,340 years. That was the main clue for me to conclude that Plato also must have been speaking in terms of generations as this was common thought for those men including Solon. This made sense also because it would be easier for 2 men speaking of history to recall 3 generations = 100 years and compute a total rather than find a total list of generations and figure out their reigns or lifespans.

That led to this;

2.79 error factor for Herodotus.(11,893/4263.36)

Plato Atlantean era Greece founding = 9,000.yrs./2.79 = 3225.81.yrs
Plato Egypt founding = 8,000.yrs./2.79 = 2867.38.yrs

3225.81 + 570(Amassis) = 3795.81.bC...Athen's Greece founded (Athena)
2867.38 + 570 = 3437.38.bC...Sais,Lower Egypt founded (Neith)


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« Reply #73 on: February 20, 2009, 07:27:38 am »

Tiven, the trouble with a more recent time frame for the destruction of Atantis is that geology doesn't seem to support the sinking of a landmass in that era, whereas the end of the Ice Age seems better suited for one.

Where do you position Atlantis if it was supposed to have been a more recent sinking?
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« Reply #74 on: February 21, 2009, 12:44:23 am »

I have always placed the original Atlantis some 300 miles before the straites of Gibraltar at the Josephine,Torre and Ormonde Seamounts.

Above, I posted a lot of scientific material from Stanford detailing an event around my flood date of 3253.bC.

My original date of 6482.bC is also another time of many events that occured which fits better with the end of the ice age and the height of the warming period when the sahara was a savanna. Perhaps as those two key dates suggest, that Atlantis may have broken apart in different stages like Edgar Cayce also stated.

Really, the only evidence that we would have geologicaly of Atlantis sinking would be flood reports since no one has provided any data that I am aware of for a large island sinking in the ocean floor other than hypothesis. We do know there are shoals of mud in front of the straites like Spartel island that was also suggested as the site of Atlantis by a french professor. It would also be difficult after so many years have passed for underwater research (which is very,very expensive) on the ocean floor when the evidence could also be buried even deeper and covered.

I believe that the original Atlantis island was formed somewhere between 150-70 million years ago when the Atlantic first started forming and Atlantis was the center of pangea where the First Garden was. Smiley

It is important to remember also how large the Atlantean Empire was where many Atlantean towns or outposts can also be discovered by researchers around the world.

The island may have disappeared but us Atlanteans are still here.! Smiley

I was born in the middle of the Atlantic Ocean on the Azores islands so by birthright I am an Atlantean. Smiley

Actualy, I like to think of the name Atlantean on the same level as we say "Humans" today.

We are all Atlanteans. Smiley

Thanks Neptune...er I mean Poseidon. Smiley

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