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We won--DREAM Amnesty defeated; gets only 55 votes, needed 60

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Volitzer
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« on: December 18, 2010, 03:32:18 pm »

We won--DREAM Amnesty defeated; gets only 55 votes, needed 60 
 
Activists,

We won! The DREAM Act sponsors only got 55 votes to "invoke cloture." They needed 60 votes. The amnesty is killed.

You won!

No amnesty has become law all this century, thanks to you.

Now, it's our turn, starting January 5 in the new Congress. Our work of "True Reform" will begin.

A complete report from Roy will follow later today! Celebrate!

Jim Robb 
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Xanadu
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« Reply #1 on: December 18, 2010, 05:58:38 pm »

It's really a shame that 55 votes isn't enough for passage anymore.  What is this government coming to?
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Volitzer
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« Reply #2 on: December 20, 2010, 03:10:03 pm »

Fer God's sake it was for cloture !!!  CLOTURE !!!!

Okay for those who have no idea how the Senate works.

A Senator or a Representative can get up there and speak for hours on end on the floor because the founding fathers did not want free speech to ever be impeded.

However after the Civil War many Southern States had Senators and Reps holding up Civil-Rights legislation in the House and in the Seante, in order to overcome this problem they came up with CLOTURE RULES.  A Senator or a Representative has free reign to talk as long as they want when they are given the floor.  However if 60% of either house, the Senate or the House of Reps, wants to vote on an issue they can call for cloture in which the floor is closed for debate.  Since there are 100 Senators the count is 60, in the House of Reps since their population is 435 then 60% is 261.  Once the 60% has voted for cloture then the House and the Senate MUST move on to the issue at hand and vote on it.

Those who wanted AMNESTY opted for CLOTURE in the Senate,  those in opposition voted against CLOTURE.  Hence the issue of amnesty for illegal aliens won't get voted on.
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Skinwalker
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« Reply #3 on: December 20, 2010, 03:39:26 pm »

I don't think that anyone here is arguing what cloture is, only that the Senate rule about it is pretty lame.

Any Senator can de facto filibuster any piece of legislation?  That's too much power, almost like a President's own vet pen. Well, I didn't elect Demint of McConnell President of my country, or Hatch or any of the rest of those bozos.
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Volitzer
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« Reply #4 on: December 20, 2010, 03:46:43 pm »

Well then who should decide who gets to speak and who doesn't ?

Sounds rather dictatorial !!!
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Lord of the Rings
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« Reply #5 on: December 20, 2010, 04:24:31 pm »

Isn't the threshold of 60 votes the things that is dictatorial?  How much legislation can actually muster that?

It should be a simple majority, as it is any time a vote is taken in any other legislative body. The Senate is really backward, made for the status quo, and it's only intent is to slow down legislation.
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Juan Carlos Mendoza
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« Reply #6 on: December 20, 2010, 04:36:50 pm »

All Mexicans should be granted amnesty in the good ole U.S. of A. We are a good-hard-working people who will do all the jobs that American citizens do not wish to do. Why the problem with so many Americans??
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Volitzer
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« Reply #7 on: December 21, 2010, 01:23:18 pm »

Isn't the threshold of 60 votes the things that is dictatorial?  How much legislation can actually muster that?

It should be a simple majority, as it is any time a vote is taken in any other legislative body. The Senate is really backward, made for the status quo, and it's only intent is to slow down legislation.

If it weren't for CLOTURE RULES many of the civil rights laws that are on the books today would never have been passed cuz the Southern States would have filibustered for years and years.  Because CLOTURE RULES politicians in both houses were able bring civil rights isssues to the floor by ENDING delay tactic FILIBUSTERING.

Currently it takes 2/3rds to propose legislation and 3/4ths to ratify in both houses.  So we have 60% to call for cloture, 66% to propose a bill, and 75% to actually ratify it in one house then it actually goes to the other one to go through the same process.

In all cases it takes an increasing majority to get something done.
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Tom Hebert
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« Reply #8 on: December 21, 2010, 02:27:40 pm »

All Mexicans should be granted amnesty in the good ole U.S. of A. We are a good-hard-working people who will do all the jobs that American citizens do not wish to do. Why the problem with so many Americans??


Hi Juan,

What about a unified North American government?  That could solve a lot of problems on both sides of the border, don't you think?


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Volitzer
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« Reply #9 on: December 21, 2010, 03:44:16 pm »

Mexico wants to be Americans than secede from the Mexican Government and apply for statehood.

That is if you can find a gang to hold the territory for you while Congress passes a resolution.
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Lord of the Rings
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« Reply #10 on: December 21, 2010, 04:21:38 pm »

Isn't the threshold of 60 votes the things that is dictatorial?  How much legislation can actually muster that?

It should be a simple majority, as it is any time a vote is taken in any other legislative body. The Senate is really backward, made for the status quo, and it's only intent is to slow down legislation.

If it weren't for CLOTURE RULES many of the civil rights laws that are on the books today would never have been passed cuz the Southern States would have filibustered for years and years.  Because CLOTURE RULES politicians in both houses were able bring civil rights isssues to the floor by ENDING delay tactic FILIBUSTERING.

Currently it takes 2/3rds to propose legislation and 3/4ths to ratify in both houses.  So we have 60% to call for cloture, 66% to propose a bill, and 75% to actually ratify it in one house then it actually goes to the other one to go through the same process.

In all cases it takes an increasing majority to get something done.

I think you're still missing the point here. It is true that it now takes 60 votes to move legislation to even getting legislation moved.  The point is, that the NEED to get 60 votes was used rarely before 2006 (when the Republicans became the minority in the Senate) because both parties had the good sense to allow there to at least be a vote.

This chart is an old one, going only to 2008, but you can see how much the procedure has increased since the Republicans became the minority:



And yes, there were some rare instances where Strohm Thurmond, for instance, filibustered Civil Rights legislation (something Rand Paul also said he would have been against, had he been in the Senate then), but that was the old-fashioned read from the phone book filibuster that we saw in Mr. Smith Goes to Washington. It is not like today's filibuster, where a Senator can simply say, "I object," to stall legislation.

Either way, it is wrong for a Senator, many even from very small states can stall progress for the whole country.
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Juan Carlos Mendoza
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« Reply #11 on: December 21, 2010, 04:30:38 pm »

All Mexicans should be granted amnesty in the good ole U.S. of A. We are a good-hard-working people who will do all the jobs that American citizens do not wish to do. Why the problem with so many Americans??


Hi Juan,

What about a unified North American government?  That could solve a lot of problems on both sides of the border, don't you think?




That would be great, Tom!  All the North American people can be as one big happy family.  we can also combine our governments so the Mexican, American and Canadian people can have equal control in their government. No Borders!  That is how it should be.
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Volitzer
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« Reply #12 on: December 23, 2010, 01:00:08 am »

Then have Mexico apply for statehood.

I like Canada but America does not want their level of socialism.

I like Mexicans but Americans do not want a kleptocracy although we are pretty darn close with our republic in the condition it is in.
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