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Plato's Dialogues

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Gwen Parker
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« Reply #45 on: March 10, 2007, 12:47:09 pm »

Interesting points, Bluehue, but they don't tend to take a lot in of what Plato actually talked about!

In the first place, the Pillars of Hercules were pretty much defined as being the Straits of Gibraltar by all the ancient historians.  Even if they weren't, there are those references to the extremities of Atlantis facing Gades.  We also have a pretty accurate geographic description of both the Med and the Atlantic.

Saudi Arabia probably does have some cities buried beneath the sands, though I'm not certain they have anything to do with Atlantis!

Gwen
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« Reply #46 on: March 13, 2007, 12:18:05 pm »

DEAR,  GWEN

As you may have noticed on my 8 MB  TIMELINE ; the Dutch Text is on the Left preceding, the English Text on the right!( so click/move to the right-tophand-corner! to read the English Summary please.)

Atlantis DATE is 1075-855 bc WHY?
Plato exaggerated all by a decimalpoint!  This is not a digression or writing Error it was intentional:
it is plain for all to see that Plato intentionally exaggerated the Figures by multipying by 10, If and I am sure THAT you don't believe me, let us look at the simple EVIDENCE and put it for a GRAND  JURY! Am I guilty of Fibbing?


 Cry  10 Kings; !0 islands; 10   artificial-Rivers; larger than Two-Continents, 10.000 years ago; 2ooo.ooo inhabitants( which could've been only 20.000 !)20.000 gold-Carts etc.
at the ( Horizontal, not vertical)World-Ocean( Oikumene=Commonwealth-)=Not the Atlantic but the Indian-Ocean!   Cry


Maybe the ancient historians have referred to Gibraltar as the definite-"Pillars"-of Hercules as facing Gades/Cadiz/Gadeira/Gadara, but the harbour of Atlantis itselves was also named Gad-Tara/ El-Ghadir=The Harbour!)So they were just the Port-Gates or Harbour Promotories facing Two-Continents! So there goes your "Pillar"Theorie(-s)as mounds on BOTH sides of a Strait!


ATLANTIS litteraty means Holy-ATHE; the "Land-of-ATHE"more precicely the Flat-Table-Land of the Kingdom of ATHE.  The only Geographical reference to a land named ATHE is in ADEN.( from the name of ADEN-Province: ATHE only found in the "Philips-Atlas".)


The italians were the first colonizers of EAST-Africa that drew maps with the ( Biblical)names of now tiny villages that used to be Palacial Capitals in Biblical times( 1000-500 bc.) Since in modern Cartography Maps are drawn to a small- Scale those former Capitals whittled down to empty villages have been stricken from the map ( replaced by new larger Town-settlements.)and are thus historically virtually unknown.


For instance the GEO-names: Valley of SITTIM, SODOM & GOMORA still exist in Ethiopia under their more original GEO-names: Valley of SIDAMO( with OGADEN=house of King OG!)Shea-SODDU & Shea-GHIMIRRAH are to be found in the present province of: GEMU-GOFU; the Jewish Tribe of Gilgud has it's base in GILGUUDUUD in Somalia; The 'LAND 'O-GOSHEN' was not in the Black-Nile delta near Caïro, but in the Blue-Nile-valley still named: GODSHAM; or GOZAN. Where the populace still speaks "GEEZE".   Is that a coïncidence or did Mission-Bishop Frumentius re-name the Ethiopian parishes of AZANIA(- AZAE of Plato's 10 Atlantean Kings!)to a biblical Geography in 332 ad ??


The connection to Atlantis with Arabia-Foëlix is that these Towns of: ADEN & SUR, were the Mother-Cities of their namesake COLONIES: Sidon(= raS-AiDON/Saida!-Sion.) and TYRUS(= Tsur.)  Jerusalem is thus a direct colony of SION as the Daughter-of-Sion.  Thus Sion is noneother that the ADEN=EDEN of the biblical Paradise, corrupted over time from, Ras-Aden/Poseidon into:just"SION".


That you cannot find any reference to this in Classical Archaeology or that it differs from the classical Historians is correct because it just occured to me last year 2005   The proof of the Pudding is taking "Gibraltar"as a Latin Translation Error, I know that this sounds corny, but I explain again that WHO equates Plato's :"ASIA"with present Turkey and not with Plato's ASIA Major, which is Arabia-Foëlix, must get his head examened!   This is not a crusade for the Trut,  I just appeal to your common sences!


Your answer is the genuine classic comment on diverters of Plato's Atlantis Location: opposite the city of Gadiz/Gades.  THOSE  supposed Pillars of Hercules (Stupid-CapsLock!)-THAT flanked "Atlantis" are 180% degrees elsewhere on the Middle-East map. Thus for centuries the South of Spain was taken for granted,  to be Atlantis-proper or by its alternative name: Hesperis corrupted into:  Hispagnia/ Hispagnola.


But by reading closer Marrocco or Marukesh appears to be Atlantis-proper hence the "Atlas-Mountains"there! Which are a cartographic abberation! of Hekataios from 512 bc.


The Spanish king Ferdinand himself proclaimed Spain the HEIR of Atlantis and Marrocco the unfullfiled Bridal-Prize: called:  Kabira /Cabyla was the chosen Bride of King Chebrus, although this happened back in 1055 bc, the Spanish king Ferdinand went to claim "Spain's"Bridal-Prize by occupying the whole of Marrocco from: 1500-until in 1515 the rogue-Sultanat of Mauretania re-took it leaving to Spain/Atlantis, only a small piece> Spanish -Morroco at:Tangiers,
 

How will this dawn unto your perception  slowly: that my single discovery is that,These socalled "Pillars-of-Hercules" were formerly called the FOUR Pillars of Chronos from 1075 bc, until Hercules visit there in 855 bc.


In 855   bc Hercules/Herakles banged his club on the floor and separated Europe from Africa!  So historians for 2000 years naturally assumed that this occurred at Gibratar !     But was it that obvious? No not by a long shot. because in Plato's time the only place called Africa in AFRICA was Jubuti/ Land of the AFARS & Issas, opposite: ADEN in Arabia(=EURIPPA.)


You see when Plato wrote his "Dialogue"Treatise, in 366 bc for TYRANT DIONYSSOS-1 OF SYRACUSE (ON CICILLY) Damned CapsLock!) Plato was referring to the Greek-cartography which matched his geographi cal description.


Plato, impossibly-could have refferred to the Roman-Cartography that the Roman Compilers used to describe Plato's greek Cartography!   And this -impossible Transversion from greek Cartography to a fully 180%reversed Roman Cartography is what Plato's roman/latin-readers did not fathom: They thought that long before the Romans all countries had Roman GEO-Names including the ones Plato mentioned, this is a folly notion rather naïv even. a simple writing error send his readers barking-up the wrong tree for 2000 years!  New-York as a name started only in 1666 no sooner you know!   Suppose that you had not known that the former name was New-Amsterdam, that You would accuse me of telling a Fib!    But "New-Amsterdam? YES I knew that( You think!)


Did it not occur to You, Gwen, as a seasoned educated amateur/Atlantologist,  that the sentence:"Inbetween = Mezo-the Continents of Asia(-Minor?) and Lybia(-interior?) was this Isle of Atlantis', means actually NEVER in the Atlantic-Ocean?!)( Columbus who started the Hoax of Atantis-in-America, held his arabian map of-indeed-Atlantis upside-down with South on top, leading Columbus straight to: "West-India" Brazil+ Antillies!
So Columbus and America and Atlantean-Spain are out! 
Modern (=Roman!)Lybia & Asia is  when taking the Gibraltar option as dubious, definitely with-IN the Mediterranean, rather Opposite Athens or "Salamis"'


Actually I am kidding, bringing-up the real Location slowly, remember!  The Greek Asia was Asia-Major which is present-day Saudi-Arabia, YOUR notion of Asia(= Asia-Minor) did not exist in Plato's time it was then a part of Persia which the Romans conquerred Re-naming it ASIA-Minor only in in 133 bc when King Attalus-3 of Pergamum presented 50% of Turkey to the Romans!


So for the love of God, how can anyone assume, that Plato in his geographic-Location of Atlantis, could ever have meant ASIA-Minor!?   Arabia-Foëlix ( wrongly spelled as Arabia-Felix=Happy fortunate Arabia.)was Saudi-Arabia  because it was a pretentious Name,THEN but it is quite opposite ASIA-Minor!


Are You still holding on that ancient DOGMA of the (TWO-)Pillars of Hercules were in Gibratar opposite Cadiz?  whilst THAT should be by the realignment of the Upside-down-Map-position, be thus: Perim/Bab-el-Mandab-Strait  Where Captain Hanno in 600 bc departed for his circumference, NOT of the whole of Africa but onlu until Jibuti and the South-Arabia Coast called the ( S-)AFFARA-Coast from which  SAFFARIES & CARAVANS were launced and where the KARA mounds were and the AFFAR-TRIANGLE, that gave it's name to the Whole of the African(= IVRIKIYA) Continent!


How about Lybia  ? , in Plato's time THIS Lybia(=interior) also did not Exist!  Plato rather meant the GREEK-"Lybia-sub-Sive-Aethiopia"meaning presentday Erytraea/and even the whole of East-Africa including: Somaliland & Azania/Ethiopia !


Inbetween those Two "continents or just Coastal-Area's lay that Isle of Atlantis, but we now know that By Isles (=NESOS,)Plato meant Promotories with Extinct Volcano's connected to the mainland by an isthmus in Modern Jargon by a silted-over slough ( named: Shefala /Sephela, in antiquity)or coastal-plain called a TOMBOLO. A geophysical freak or feature of Nature above tectonic fissures, : Aden-Ras; Mascate-Ras, Fartak-Ras etc. which almost every "RAS"i n the Gulf-of-ADEN has. Any Earthquake would than trigger not Fire but a ( methane-hydrantgaz-propelled water spout.)


The biggest "Isle"in THAT area is RAS-Aden-Crater an extinct Mud-Volcano that matches the measurements of the Royal Metropolis of Atlantis"Isle" namely 2.000 by 3.000 stades/Stadia: 20/30 Km


Plato also said that Atlantis was drowned during a Spring-Flood thus during an extraordinary HIGH-Tide and subsequently drowned and was washed into a mudsheol. Is there not something odd in this sentence?
Why are scientists and especially Oceanographers looking for Atlantis UNDER water?
Are they too quick/hasty-impatiënt   readers ?   Cannot they read what it says? Did it not OCCUR to any-of-them that any Flood is of a temporary nature and that thus Atlantis has risen again though not unscanted, and should logically be above sea-level minus a bit of slit-Mud !?( today we would name this phenomenon a TSUNAMI,

Alas for the indigenes WHITE-Elephants in Atlantis the people killed them as causes or the bewitchers  of the Evil Tsunami, when the Elephants becan to Whail like SIRENS and an hour later the Tsunami started the onlookers -naturally-thought that it was not nature- but the Elephants or rather as they were called THEN; the Sea-Horses/Hippocampii, of POSEIDON, that caused the EarthQuakes and so they were declared TABOO, in Egypt but not in the buddist countries where the stricken Ganeesha was honored as the white Elephant/Luck-bringer instead of the Atlantean  voracious-BEAST.    When the Tsunami occurred Shiva was disturbed by the warning wailing of the Sirens or Flying-Elephants so he clipped their"Wings"and they descended and became the Himalayan Mountains!( 1075 bc.)


Sure, several writers that were better readers than most! have assumed that Atlantis was in the Egyptian Sahara-Desert like BENOIT( Tibesti-Hoggar-en Nag & Tassili-Mound in central-Algeria-Erg.) and RIDER HAGGARD ("She-")who supported the believe that the Kabyl-Berbers & the Tuareggs were the survivers of the former Atlantis of-the-Sahara.


( Sir-)Ralph Fiennes the infamous Filmstar, whilst still a 2-nd Lieutenant and Royal-archaeologist in Oman has found UBAR-the Atlantis-of-the Sands in SALALA/=Safara-Metropolis, which was: OPHIR, that GARDEN that King Solomon owned-in-Paradise>(= Atlantis!)  So he was close by!   Engineer Stan-Deyo from Berkeley Univ.Calif. was also close in assuming that Atlantis was a part of French Somalia(=Jibuti), he too, mannaged to seek out and avoid, the mistake of naming the Pillars of Hercules "Gibraltar."and was well aware that Bab-el-mandab was the greek rendering, a former landbridge split apart during Hercules roaming as a mercenary/condottieri-general in 855 bc.


BUT WHO STARTED TO PERPETUATE THE:"GIBRALTAR-DOGMA"?  in 2003 this was the brazilian linguist: GEORGEOS-DIAZ-MONTEXANO he iniciated the notion that when we follow the latin text of Plato closely: Namely that Atlantis was NOT in MID-Atlantic-Ocean but surely at it's perifery:thus, not Bimini, but the Gibraltar Straits, but yet within the"Atlantic"than ,must have been at the mouth of the Strait or Fretum of Gibraltar at the Atlantic side where the biggest Mud-Shoal was Cape Spartel 50 meters below Sealevel, but how deep UNDER the Mud itselve he could not say because that would be 150 or 100 meters lower.  Since nobody believed him Then, he started a game in cahoots with Collina-Girard who agree to issued the same claim, in order that GEORGEOS could start an international smear campaign a classical polemic fight with a respectable Scientific, collegue; a donkey-fight,  that reached the World-Press.


It is always a pleasure to  witness/see/ hear a talkshow with an entertaining conversation like the ones with David Letterman; Sein-Feld or NBC's  JAY  LENNO, aapplied to Atlantis like a show simulating about the better arguments between Apple-MAC-intosh and PC-Microsoft-users: Both think they are right in that sence this POLEMIC between two scholars about the Location of Atlantis triggered 4 Atlantic Website owners to do the same;Since 2003,  reason why I am now writing today about the only real Location of fabled Atlantis: RAS-Aden.


I contacted SCI-FI-TV-Channel by Email, to Contract a contribution to their recent Atlantis-Quest TV-Program, but the Editors,  told me that I was not scheduled-in and besides IF I was the real discoverer the other contributors freedom of speech would be in yeopardy and their"Scientific"contributions would be Worthless.and that would mean the death of the Program, so for various reasons My version was deemed superfluous.


Since the clever Spartel-Hoax scheme of GEORGEOS and Collina-Girard did not produce enough intrest, GEORGEOS devised another clever plan: The FIRST World-Conference about the Location of Atlantis in 2005 on the isle of Melos once thought to be one of the 2 "Pillars-of-Hercules (= ERCULO)in Greece! the socalled:"promotories of:"TAENARUM and MALEAS"(=EUMELOS which is, supposedly: Milos.)as a passage in Critias( 114A-B.)seems to indicate !


Nearly ALL 55 Oceanographic Atlantologists at: "Melos" chose for an Atlantis UNDER  (Sea-) water, GEORGEOS hench-men were the first to be doubted on his own conference!  And the FIRST interview given on that Project, was of a Collegue-professor,  of Collina-Girard who, on his own admitted since exclusively the greek  Easychair Classicists & archaeologists and one american named Sarmast, knew of the Locations of secondary:"Pillars-of-Hercules"( like"Athos")That made Those at Gibraltar(= Alph & Cabyl") suspicious, so that after this Conference, They now seemed the least probable location for "The Pillars".


So I consequently  ask you, after you have seen/read the sampled/compilated evidence, above  AGAINST the"Pillars"at Gibraltar, because of a faulty translation from Greek to Roman/Lation geography, in view of this do you support the Perim-Bab-el-Mandab-Option, or do you not want to upset the applecart and keep following the Bandwaggon of Gibraltar as-the-genuine-" 2-Pillars-of-General-Hercules"?


PS as Heracles did his 12 Labours mostly in France & Italy for Erystheus of Mycena with Gibratar as his"Pillars"the consequence of taking Perim/Bab-el-Mandab"as the Pillars, is that most of his 12 Labours, were done in EAST-Africa and EGYPT with Eurystheus as King-of-ADEN and not of Mycena( MIKENE.which was one of the half-dozen names by which Aden was also known in antiquity!)

Sincerely Yours,     Cry  "BlueHueCry



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( Blue's)THEORY, locating"original" Atlantis( in Aden-Yemen.)
1: ATLANTIS =Fake=Latin name, original Greek: ATHE(=a Region in Aden)
2: Atlantic-OCEAN=Greek: RIVER-of-Atlas+also" Known "World-OCEAN(=Red-Sea)
3: Greek-obsolete-Numeral 'X' caused Plato's Atlantisdate:9000=900
Mark of Australia
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« Reply #47 on: March 13, 2007, 06:29:31 pm »

Dear BlueHue

I can't help getting involved  Smiley 

firstly ,I found it very interesting what you said about Ferdinand declaring Spain to be the heir of Atlantis .Where did you read that ?  I would like to find out more about it .

Secondly, about the Asia Minor/major ,Libya  argument . Plato seems quite clearly to be merely comparing those places ,(however big they may be),  with the size or greatness of Atlantis .
   The Asia and Libya  sentence has no bearing on the 'location' of Atlantis.

Thirdly , your enthusiasm is clear due to your style of writing ,I like it , but I can see that you might get many people offside .Suggesting a conspiracy perpetrated by Diaz-Montexano and Collins-Girard is definately a bit too much.

You have got me intrigued by this Ras Aden crater ,can you post its longitude and latitude? ,I could look it up on Google Earth.

Who first identified the crater as Atlantis Huh forgive me if you have already mentioned it somewhere else.

You mentioned the 'Melos Conference' BlueHue , I have been waiting for the official proceedings to be published ,it was promised afterall ,,.. it would surely be one of the greatest books about Atlantis instantly upon publication , but still nothing ?!!  , So I wouldn't count my chickens til 2008 actually comes around...  hint hint  Wink

Oh,  if Gwen is Moderator  , can I be the sidekick ?
« Last Edit: March 13, 2007, 06:47:05 pm by Mark Ponta » Report Spam   Logged
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« Reply #48 on: March 15, 2007, 12:44:14 pm »

DEAR,   MARK PONTA[/b] 

 Shocked REGARDLESS whether Plato, were comparing two 'Continents"for their Size or Might(>Georgeos!)the

 Cry Continent of Asia( = not: Minor.)was not Turkey,  & Lybia(= was not present Lybia) as geo-positioning for Atlantis, It is still a discredit to Scholars  and yourselve, that historians  cannot see that Plato can impossibly have taken reference to Nations that were created, I mean " really: invented admistratively" by the Roman Tax-collectors, 200 years  AFTER  Plato's  death.


Okay this is just an argument, I am not throwing stones,  but cannot you get it into your head,  that ASIA-Minor is Turkey and ASIA- Major is Arabia?   Since the NAME ASIA-Minor was only invented by the Romans, for a totally different if aligned Nation,  back in 133 ad ( From the King Attalus-3 whose family came from Asia-Major and in who's honor the country of Pergamum was donated, and thus re-named Asia-Minor, in 133 ad, don't you tink, that it should be very obvious that Plato in his comparison 200 years EARLIER, was refering to another ASIA , called: major thus Arabia and  not to: ASIA minor? 


Don't take it for granted, but the difference in distance for locating Atlantis is 5.000 km , So by not being able to tell the difference between ASIA-Minor and -Major, you are throwing away 5.000 Km. but that's "peanuts" for you I suppose?


If you continue to think that Asia minor or Major are the same country or region,  the likes of me, would not like to have you for a partner on a bet-quest financed by SCIFI-TVchannel station,  for the historical Atlantis Location!


You know yourself that GREECE also GRAECIA; MAGNA-MOREA , MACEDON, ETC.over the centuries before and after Christ, has suffered names changes from differend namegivers by temporary conquerrers:  Attica was named after the son ATTIS of Cecrops than after his Daughter ATHiS than after his greatgrandson PELOPS, Thrace was renamed during the Trojan war to: THRESPOTHIA  Who is to say that these EPONYMS covered Lands with the same Boundaries left alone in the same country ??

South-Rhodesia(=Zimbabwe)and Zambia are also not the same Country ( anymore.)and Katanga and Zaïre once were named Congo Leopold-Ville,  and South-Africa was once named:"TRANS-Vale"Palestine:"Trans-Jordan"ELAM>Persia!Etc.  Ethiopia used to be called "MAGAN" or HABEScH !Also: Aussan or:AXUM


For the purpose of avoiding strife amongst the various Greek Tribes the administrator  Perikles invented a taxsystem into Caste system insted of into a tribal system, therefor he changed the natural indigenes tax-boundaries amongst the Tribes into Random artificial ones, so that the descendants of the original tribes would forget their multiracial origin.   


 Grin   Did not the egyptian Priest Sonchis at Saïs ( a fib?)tell the same:"The GREEKS were a NEW  NATION,  they forgot all about their multi-tribal origin,  even in Plato's time most of the Athenian aristocracy came from non Athgenian tribes that impossibly could trace their ancestors back to the time that ( OTHER) Greek Tribes were defending a greek City that only 500 years late would be known as: ATHENS .      meaning that the Athens that was confronting the Atlanteans could have been an folklore from immegrant greeks that cam elswhere in this case: ADEN in south Yemen.


 SUN-DIAL"wristwatches"from XENIA? anachronisms:

in the socalled un-finnished left ending of Timeaus Dialogue found in Spain recently ( on this Forum ) the narrator tells that the Athenians repulsed the attacking Atlanteans with their hellenic Fleet from Piraeus.


 Grin This is supposed to be around 10.000 bc! when Athens had not built that harbour yet ( in:400 bc.)and the Term 'Helenistic" only existed as late as 300 bc !
Nay even the whole peageant of Greece did not exist before 1199 bc,when the Trojans started to Colonize it!    Grin               

Sincerely   Cry  "BlueHue"   Cry
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( Blue's)THEORY, locating"original" Atlantis( in Aden-Yemen.)
1: ATLANTIS =Fake=Latin name, original Greek: ATHE(=a Region in Aden)
2: Atlantic-OCEAN=Greek: RIVER-of-Atlas+also" Known "World-OCEAN(=Red-Sea)
3: Greek-obsolete-Numeral 'X' caused Plato's Atlantisdate:9000=900
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« Reply #49 on: March 15, 2007, 01:14:09 pm »

DEAR   MARK  Ponta,

About the Melos 2005-Conference and the role of GEORGEOS in it.
I only knew a week before July 13 2005 from a very attentive Forum member of: Bernardo@Atlan.Org that this "MELOS"Conference ever existed our WHOLE important Website was not informed about this clever scheme by  'GEORGEOS'and his companion in cahoots: Collina-Girard


I am certain that GEORGEOS, was involved in organizing this Conference, because it was in the Line of expectation that after his promotion of a Mud Shoal in the Atlantic off-Spain failed it's objective, he would attempt the same on an even grander scale, or at least he was capable to organize it!


Anyway he is the only Webmaster that has issued all the results of the Lectures that's why there was no official issue by the Melos Conference organisation Bureau:'GEORGEOS'IS "Melos-2005"! I was one of the first newcomersd to contribute to his New Atlantis-Website, but I got ssoon a strange message"Banning"me from participating in it.       


Since then I have forgotten what the proper Code for this AtlantisForum was and have no Knowledge how it fared, so if you want to parouse the official"results from the
"MELOS-2005-WORLD-Conference on Atlantis"you will have to ask 'GEORGEOS'he seems to know more about it than the naked eye can see. . . . and without GEORGEOS, staring the dogfight between two scientists over the Location of Atlantis on Spartel, the would not be any Atlantis-Hype todaynor Atlantis Forums, they all started after GEOR-GEOS started his Dispute with Collina-Girard   So about "MELOS"you will have to contact and ask himself and please avert/inform me of the result!   Thank You!


 Huh  As for my  litterary sources, Since I suffer from an unrecognized form of pre-Natal- ???Alzheimer's Disease, I ware boots without shoelaces, and have dayly trouble remembering where I kept my House key, left alone authors's names, so I just say:  Dr.Velikovsky: Earth in Upheavel ( 1960)


Sincerely  Cry  "BlueHue"   Cry

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( Blue's)THEORY, locating"original" Atlantis( in Aden-Yemen.)
1: ATLANTIS =Fake=Latin name, original Greek: ATHE(=a Region in Aden)
2: Atlantic-OCEAN=Greek: RIVER-of-Atlas+also" Known "World-OCEAN(=Red-Sea)
3: Greek-obsolete-Numeral 'X' caused Plato's Atlantisdate:9000=900
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« Reply #50 on: March 16, 2007, 04:34:37 am »

Dear BlueHue

                 I have no problem accepting your definition of Asia and Libya .I think it is too vague to come to any firm conclusions concerning the size of Atlantis so I basically overlook that part of the description.

 I am content to just take from it though, that Atlantis was a fairly BIG island.  How big?  well as I just said ,it is too vague to tell .. ok lets try to narrow it down a little ..could it have been as big as South America?  yes it could have (even though I dont believe that) but there is room for that interpretation in Platos description.
        Could it have only been the size of Britain ?   Yes ,I think that is reasonable from the vague description ,'larger than Asia and Libya' whatever that means! ,since the ancients only meant the coastal area.  As you clearly show ,BlueHue ,it is a minefield trying to figure out how different people at different times defined an area.

I actually do believe that it was roughly similar in area to Britain.

So basically I dont put much store in that 'Asia ,Libya ' line  since the state of geographical knowledge in Solons or Platos time was extremely poor.And we clearly can't be sure what was meant by Asia and Libya,,or how it translates to a geographical area ,considering that the ancients only included the narrow strip of land on the coast in there definition of Libya or Asia.
So we cant rely too much on that oft quoted line despite your fervent assertions BlueHue.
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« Reply #51 on: March 16, 2007, 06:52:19 am »

Plato's description of the Atlantean land mass was indeed vague, but I have no doubts that Atlantis was continental in size.  As we know from history, "Asia" referred to a much smaller territory in ancient times, but the term "Libya" encompassed all of Africa except for Egypt.  I'll have to check my notes, but I believe there is evidence that Africa was circumnavigated by the ancients.  That would give them some idea of the size of the continent even if they only knew about the coastline.

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« Reply #52 on: March 16, 2007, 09:12:39 am »

hi Tom

Yes , the Pharaoh Necho commisioned a Phoenician crew to sail around Africa ,

you can find that in Herodotus .
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« Reply #53 on: March 18, 2007, 04:30:11 am »

I saw my info from an Atlantis webstie claiming the Azores as the location,  it used the word "frequently" when referring to mammoth bones being dredged up along the Azores and Mid-Atlantic Ridge.  Mark saw his info from a scientifc journal, although we can't find which one. Odd, isn't it?

Eureka !!  I was going through some of my old notes that I'd taken down in researches over the years and I came across the note about the mammoth remains found in the ocean ..  Frankly ,it's a miracle that I found it because if you've seen my sprapbooks of notes with random pages stapled in so they dont get lost, You'd know what I mean .

Anyway , the note simply says  " 1967 edition of 'Science' Magazine reported mastadons and Mammoth teeth two - three hundred miles off Portugal "

I found this on a site just now :


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 Science 16 June 1967:
Vol. 156. no. 3781, pp. 1477 - 1481
DOI: 10.1126/science.156.3781.1477
 Prev | Table of Contents | Next 

Articles

Elephant Teeth from the Atlantic Continental Shelf
Frank C. Whitmore Jr. 1, K. O. Emery 2, H. B. S. Cooke 3, and Donald J. P. Swift 4
1 U. S. Geological Survey, Washington, D.C.
2 Woods Hole Oceanographic Institution, Woods Hole, Massachusetts
3 Department of Geology, Dalhousie University, Halifax, Nova Scotia
4 Puerto Rico Nuclear Center, Mayaguez



Teeth of mastodons and mammoths have been recovered by fishermen from at least 40 sites on the continental shelf as deep as 120 meters. Also present are submerged shorelines, peat deposits, lagoonal shells, anz relict sands. Evidently elephants and other large mammals ranged this region during the glacial stage of low sea level of the last 25,000 years.

 
But that is not off Portugal ,,I am sure I saw it .....Y ou know what these guys are like ,,they try to ignore anything anomolous ,,Its out there somewhere..

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Tom Hebert
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« Reply #54 on: March 18, 2007, 06:11:55 am »

Hi Mark,

I am delighted that mammoth bones have been found in the Atlantic, but isn't the continental shelf quite a bit different from the Mid-Atlantic Ridge?  The former could be explained by a melting ice-age.  The latter would have no explanation according to orthodox science.


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« Reply #55 on: March 18, 2007, 06:17:46 am »

You are exactly right Tom  ...,I am SURE I read that they found some remains 2 -3 hundred miles off Portugal .. I wouldnt have taken a note of it if it merely said the continental shelf of America..

It must be there somewhere ,,, maybe in the article somewhere ,,,that below was merely a short abstract ... you have to subscribe to be able to read the entire article ,, i would if i had a credit card  ...I dont trust the damn things . Lips sealed
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« Reply #56 on: March 19, 2007, 03:55:28 pm »

TO:   GWEN, Dick TOM and Harry,

INCREDIBLE that you all take for granted that Plato described Atlantis as an Isle in the middle of the Atlantic and that it had a size of Two continents!  Whilst even GEORGEOS recognized that this "Huge" Isle was at the very Perifery; some thought even of Ierland!( Ulf Ercisson.) The word  "SIZE"=Mesos was originally   "INBETWEEN"=MEZO


This Mesos=MEZO thing has allready been discovered by Ganalopoulos & Marinatos in: 1935   GEORGEOS has naturally ommitted it in his writings and cncentrated upon the wording" GREATER-in SIZE"  as:  MIGHTHIER( Translation by G.Bury in 1925.)and fooled everybody afresh.


You as observers are as stubborn as GEORGEOS !   Don't you realise that Plato has been translated wrong?  it is no matter of what differend people used as Units of measurements of the environement at differend times.  The Atlantis issue is about greek Cartography!  A.Minor,  is NOT the same as A.Major,  despite the simularity in name.


Anyone that has a working knowledge about the Sea-route Chart of 200 ad,( re-issued in 630 ad. by the Bysantine Nestorians to provide an escape route to India during persecutions of Emperor Phocas & Heraklios.)'Periplus Mare Erytraeum' it's observer, knows about ancient Mapping and should thus know that Atlantis is the same as The COMMONWEALTH of-Oikumenes" that was in ADEN(- Protectorate)


I, JUST was wondering if, YOU and GWEN still think OF ATLANTIS IN THE ATLANTIC AFTER A LENGTHTY discussion that it is not  and still you confirm the old falsehood- DOGMA that it is, you are DUNCES at locating Atlantis, I wonder if you have ever SEEN ancient Maps of ARABY!  With ADEN in the position of Atlantis.


Some of You may claim to be annoyed by GEORGEOS, but when anothers tells You the Truth You don't see it neither.   Sorry for this sermon, but the wrong diagnosis in locating Atlantis is in the taking for granted that Plato's ASIA-major is identical to the Roman Compilator's ASIA-minor which is a totally different country alltogether 5.000 km apart !


And which, consequently, sent the researchers and explores quite up the other way, which may be forgivven because they lacked enough information and ignorance is bliss!

Sincerely:   Sad  "BlueHue"   Sad
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( Blue's)THEORY, locating"original" Atlantis( in Aden-Yemen.)
1: ATLANTIS =Fake=Latin name, original Greek: ATHE(=a Region in Aden)
2: Atlantic-OCEAN=Greek: RIVER-of-Atlas+also" Known "World-OCEAN(=Red-Sea)
3: Greek-obsolete-Numeral 'X' caused Plato's Atlantisdate:9000=900
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« Reply #57 on: March 19, 2007, 06:29:41 pm »

Dear BlueHue

I've just been going over this thread and a couple of things I notice that might be relevant are:

 1.)   The idea that the "... larger than Libya and Asia ..."  line could actually refer to the military power of Atlantis instead of it's geography is not something that originated with Georgeos Diaz-Montexano. I am sure I have read other earlier scholars who reached that conclusion aswell . Some of the  well known translations say " ...greater than Libya and Asia...".  (I really should provide proof of that claim.)

Ok ,I've just been looking at my version of Timaeus and Critias from " Plato : Complete Works " and here are a couple of points .In Timaeus it says "This island was larger than Libya and Asia combined" . Then, in Critias the line is kind of repeated ,"...This island,as we were saying,was at one time greater than both Libya and Asia combined. "    .So we have the use of 'larger' and 'greater' by different translators.In this case ,Timaeus by Donald Zeyl ,and Critias by Diskin Clay  .Awesome name - Diskin  Smiley 

 2.)    If Atlantis is on the Arabian peninsula how do you explain away the clear geographical references that explain how Atlantis ruled the coast of Africa from the Pillars of Hercules up to the coast of Egypt ,and the coast of Europe up to Tyrrhenia.?

3.) Yeah ,I know, BlueHue ,it is a little annoying when you have the 'truth' and people just ignore it.You just gotta get over it mate. Otherwise you start sounding really cranky ,and that ain't gonna convince anyone. I have my beliefs ,you have yours .People believe all sorts of  stuff.So what . We are trying to find a way forward on the question of Atlantis . Hopefully someday ,spectacular, undeniable physical evidence will be found so we can have some closure on this question.'Til then ,it's not a competition to see who here can win the most converts to their 'belief'. 
              ...For arguments sake ,If everyone here firmly believed your theory, would that actually get you any closer to proving it or finding the 'evidence'?   .It will cost a lot of money to send an expedition to Arabia to conduct an archaeological dig at the site... Just 'cause someone believes a theory doesn't mean they are ready to believe in it with their wallet (or purse)  Tongue 

Yeah its ok to say "Incredible that you all take for granted...",  then saying , "Are you as stupid as Georgeos...? " thats going a bit far ,,and Dunces?  that too.
I don't really care about that sort of nonsense ,I actually like it ,I find it amusing when a theorist 'insists' he is right ,and it appears they are shouting 'til they're 'Blue' in the face. It's hillarious. But you might actually offend someone. Take it easy , you don't wanna sound like your nemesis ...do you ?

Oh.and BlueHue, I have not seen any ancient maps of Arabia that show Aden in the position of Atlantis .Please post them so I can see the truth .

Sincerely

Mark
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« Reply #58 on: March 20, 2007, 03:15:22 am »

Good points, Mark, all of them.

Bluehue, each time I hear someone engage in name-calling or attempt to insult the intelligience of another, I know that they have a weak case.  I'm not offended.  Mostly because I find it a bit sad that you are apparently so insecure in our beliefs that you have to engage in rhetoric in support of them.

I never said that Atlantis was a huge continent in Atlantis, in fact, in the two and a half years I have been posting on these forums, I have never actually voiced any support for any particular theory at all. 

I will say it's wrong (in my opinion) to locate Atlantis anywhere but outside the Pillars of Hercules, though.  All the ancients were unanimous of where they were. If the one reference was all we had, you might well be right about the areas in the translation.  However, there are other aspects, too:

(From Tiameus) Here is a clear description of the geogpraphy of the Med and the Atlantic Ocean:
GREEK

[25a] epi tên katantikru pasan êpeiron tên peri ton alêthinon ekeinon ponton. tade men gar, hosa entos tou stomatos hou legomen, phainetai limên stenon tina echôn eisploun: ekeino de pelagos ontôs hê te periechousa auto gê pantelôs alêthôs orthotat' an legoito êpeiros. en de dê têi Atlantidi nêsôi tautêi megalê sunestê kai thaumastê dunamis basileôn, kratousa men hapasês tês nêsou, pollôn de allôn nêsôn kai merôn tês êpeirou: pros de toutois eti tôn entos têide

ENGLISH:

[25a] over against them which encompasses that veritable ocean. For all that we have here, lying within the mouth of which we speak,1 is evidently a haven having a narrow entrance; but that yonder is a real ocean, and the land surrounding it may most rightly be called, in the fullest and truest sense, a continent. Now in this island of Atlantis there existed a confederation of kings, of great and marvellous power, which held sway over all the island, and over many other islands also and parts of the continent; and, moreover,

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?doc=Perseus:text:1999.01.0180:text=Tim.:section=25a


Does that, in any shape or form sound like Saudi Arabia to you?

Also, this reference to the location of Atlantis:

TIMAEUS:

[24e] hen huperechei megethei kai aretêi: legei gar ta gegrammena hosên hê polis humôn epausen pote dunamin hubrei poreuomenên hama epi pasan Eurôpên kai Asian, exôthen hormêtheisan ek tou Atlantikou pelagous. tote gar poreusimon ên to ekei pelagos: nêson gar pro tou stomatos eichen ho kaleite, hôs phate, humeis Hêrakleous stêlas, hê de nêsos hama Libuês ên kai Asias meizôn, ex hês epibaton epi tas allas nêsous tois tote egigneto poreuomenois, ek de tôn nêsôn

Here is how it translates into English, per all the scholars of Perseus Tufts:

[24e] both for magnitude and for nobleness. For it is related in our records how once upon a time your State stayed the course of a mighty host, which, starting from a distant point in the Atlantic ocean, was insolently advancing to attack the whole of Europe, and Asia to boot. For the ocean there was at that time navigable; for in front of the mouth which you Greeks call, as you say, 'the pillars of Heracles,'1 there lay an island which was larger than Libya2 and Asia together; and it was possible for the travellers of that time to cross from it to the other islands, and from the islands to the whole of the continent.

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?doc=Perseus:text:1999.01.0179:text=Tim.:section=24e

And, in Critias, there is also the reference to Gadeirus (in Spain), I could probably find a whole host of other references, but I think I have made my point.  Namely, that anyone who wants to place Atlantis at any point other than in the Atlantic, has a lot of explaining (or explaining away) to do.

Gwen

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« Reply #59 on: March 21, 2007, 03:57:16 pm »

DEAR, GWEN  & Tom,

In the translation of sentences that are not normal but Poetr's Lyrics in allegory lies the Problem of Atlantis Location!


Besides Plato originally did NOT write in Hellenistic Greek, we all tend to forget that hellenistic Greek or Koine originated with Alexander the Great who could not understand his Attic greek bodyguards and ordered them in 335 only 10 years AFTER Plato's death to speak and write in Macedonian Greek that became the KOÏNE language


BY LAW, the older Dialects had to be translated to Macedonian Greek, to the extend that they forgot their older Dialects, and thus no Document of Plato in it's original greek is extend.  Thus who is to say that the Hellenistic translators copied Plato's original attic dialect or changed the wording, because they forgot the old word-meanings?  I am no Poet myself, but silver waters; golden sand ;and diamonds on trees are exagerations to me that may have been translated as real metal!


ANYWAY I keep saying  traditionally Atlantis is in the Mediterranean-Sea and the Spanish King Ferdinand has decreed in 1500,ad. that SPAIN is Atlantis or as HESPERIS-SPAIN; it's legal heritor ( Including America.)


 And by this invented decree, inventive! everyone situated Atlantis in the Atlantic Ocean, whilst the very name was only invented in 1648 at the peacetreaty of Müster, just because the Dutch, did not like its former name: Spanjish Sea, so by treaty it was changed into the Atlantic Ocean! which for Spain was thus ecactly the same


See?  the Game of  King Ferdinand-of Castilia was to create a legal(if humbug-) claim on the New-World and the Moslim Coast of Marrocco/Mauretania.


The Story he "invented" was thus:  King HEBRUS-of-Spain/Hesperus was married to KABIRA daughter of King ATLAS-of-Mauretania in 1000 bc( "Hebrus"=king David.)But  King Atlas "Forgot"to give the Dowery to King HEBRUS, so that "fact"
alone gave SPAIN/HESPERUS=ATLANTIS  the legality to "Re-take Mauretania, which it held from: 1500-1515 until Spain withdrew to later"Spanish-Marocco"which it gave-up in 1957( how stupid of them!)


I hear of several Forum members that they did not know that Story That Spain by DECREE of it's FIRST King declaired itselves:"ATLANTIS"  So why looking for Atlantis elswhere?   ( Just Kidding )


Furthermore GWEN, you asked me how Plato's description could match the PILLARS-of-HERCULES in Spain/Gibraltar? His JARGON is corrupted:  Atlantis is not a NESOS but a Cheirro-NESOS that was washed by the sea not on all sides but only on TWO sides.(= Achileos.) Conclusion: Atlantis was no Isle but a promotory


Another thing: as I mentioned earlier The Atlantic Ocean is an invented name that was given to the Spanish Habsburg Sea in 1648 . Thus BEFORE that New namesgiving, there only existed ONE Ocean: The INDIAN-Ocean and than the Pacific( 1600 ad.) and than the Atlantic( 1648 ad.)


So the Indian OCEAN is a better candidate than the Atlantic ( Am I getting through to you?)

1 The Atlantic did not exist in Plato's time he alway was referring to the INDIAN

Ocean only;


2  ASIA=minor and LYBIA=interior, were roman invented names and thus could not have existed in Plato's time.



3 The fact that nevertheless he DID mention them, means that he was referring to OTHER Lands with the Same Name!


4 The roman translators who were often just interpretors or writers in service of professors but not scientists themselves have almost naturally thought that Plato was referring to the Roman provinces of that name, which is -ofcouse-impossible!


5 In Plato's time
ASIA meant: ARABIA-FOËLIX. because ir was Asia MAJOR, whilst the Romans thought that he meant Asia-MINOR !( which is now Turkey.)


6 In Plato's time LYBIA did not exist because it is a roman Province of that name,
  and it is not a roman Continuation of a Lybia that was formerly greek, because the Greeks called that same country"CYRENAÏKA or Numidia; NOT Lybia.


7 Thus Plato's "LYBIA"was somewhere else namely in East-AFRICA where it was originally names indeed LYBIA but with the addition: "LYBIA-sub-sive-AEGYPTO".


8 Lybia in-East-Africa was later renamed"AZANIA"which corresponds to Plato's Atlantic-isle of:"AZAES" and which today is called ERYTRAERA.


9:  Pillars of Hercules were originally FOUR Pillars of Chronos but Hercules splitt them with his CLUB so that there remained only Two, in his 10-th labour

10 these Pillars are thus Bab el MANDAB & PERIM

Sincerely,   Cry  "BlueHueCry




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( Blue's)THEORY, locating"original" Atlantis( in Aden-Yemen.)
1: ATLANTIS =Fake=Latin name, original Greek: ATHE(=a Region in Aden)
2: Atlantic-OCEAN=Greek: RIVER-of-Atlas+also" Known "World-OCEAN(=Red-Sea)
3: Greek-obsolete-Numeral 'X' caused Plato's Atlantisdate:9000=900
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