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Plato's Dialogues

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Gwen Parker
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« Reply #15 on: February 24, 2007, 01:23:38 am »

Hi Gwen


It usually takes an oddball to see things others cannot, an outsider looking in is a better position to judge, has a better perspective from which to see whats really going on. Insiders are often blinded because all they see are reflections of themselves, all they hear are their own opinions echoed back to them because the insiders are all trying to fit in, to be the same, not to be different.

wow did that make any sense at all, I'm kinda tired forgive me.

I pose a hypothetical question

What if Socrates hadn't been convicted and executed. What if he had lived to a ripe old age and died of natural causes?

I guess one could say that he would have been a thorn in the side of the state, perhaps prompting/shaming them into better behavior/policies.

But if he hadn't died he wouldn't have been the martry that he was, and he wouldn't have been such an inspiration to Plato and other Greek philosophers down through the years.



That's certainly true, Unknown, the death of Socrates inspired Plato and was the origin of many of his dialogues.

I take issue with the idea that it colored all his dialogues, though.  I saw an Atlantis special one time where a classics professor suggested that the reason Plato wrote Timaeus and Critias was still to work out some of his angst towards Socrates.  Well, Timaeus and Critias were two of his last dialogues, and by the time he wrote them, Socrates had already been dead for several decades.

It's a shame that no writings of Socrates have survived.  We don't know the real Socrates.  We actually know very little about Plato either as he never included himself in his own dialogues.
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Gwen Parker
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« Reply #16 on: February 24, 2007, 01:33:54 am »

Hi Gwen and Unknown ,

Its great that u r putting some of the Dialogues up Gwen ,i started reading the Phaedo on here ,it is very moving . I have the complete works of Plato but i have really only focused on the Atlantis dialogues ,and bits and pieces of other dialogues.,always intending to read the others since it is essential to try to understand the author as much as possible. And simply for personal philosophical value,of course.
       I was directed to a passage in 'Statesman'  which is was of  interest ,and i have read the eloquent little dialogue called 'Halcyon' ;it is no longer attributed to Plato ,but i recommend it, i read it over and over,

Gwen ,maybe u should start your own 'Academy'  Tongue  ,curriculum : philosophy ,music ,alternative history. ha    ,
  can i be one of the professors?? plzzzzzzz    Smiley

 


Hi Mark! 

Look at this as sort of our Plato's Academy - we have it all here, further down the page, we explore ancient cultures and even the arts! Something for everybody here.  But yes, you can be one of the Professors.

Which passage of the Statesman were you referring to, and why was it of interest?

I keep looking for other dialogues that might give clues to Atlantis, too, but it's true what they say, it's only mentioned in the two.

Eventually, we are going to get all of Plato's dialogues over here, some of Aristotle's too!

Gwen
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unknown
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« Reply #17 on: February 24, 2007, 01:43:14 am »

Hi Gwen

It is a shame he didn't leave any writings behind, but then again he did leave an indeliable impression upon Athens, and upon the lives of his students.

Hi Mark

I read everything they had on Plato in the Harvard classics online which is a wonderful resource for great historical works, its been a few years ago now, so I not sure what all is there.

If you haven't already seen it, I highly recommend it.
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"There exists an agent, which is natural and divine, material and spiritual, a universal plastic mediator, a common receptical of the fluid vibrations of motion and the images of forms, a fluid, and a force, which can be called the Imagination of Nature..."
Elphias Levi
Gwen Parker
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« Reply #18 on: February 24, 2007, 01:53:13 am »

I used to go to Harvard Classics, but the two best places I have found for classic ancient writings are Internet Classics (which has the writings of all the Greeks), and, of course, Sacred Texts, which has everything!

A lot of people at AR also use Perseus Tufts, which is good for finding the original Greek, but I always found it a bit irritating in that they only print a few passages at a time.
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unknown
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« Reply #19 on: February 24, 2007, 02:26:23 am »

Sacred Texts is wonderful Grin I haven't been to internet classics.

I have just been reading through your posts of the dialogs got a ways to go yet.
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"There exists an agent, which is natural and divine, material and spiritual, a universal plastic mediator, a common receptical of the fluid vibrations of motion and the images of forms, a fluid, and a force, which can be called the Imagination of Nature..."
Elphias Levi
Mark of Australia
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« Reply #20 on: February 25, 2007, 10:23:44 am »

yeah , i use Perseus ,but i am still trying to find Book XIII of Strabo's Geography ,apparently it has some information that may have a bearing on the Atlantis question, according to Charles Pellegrino in "Unearthing Atlantis" .

Oh cool  ,,I wonder if one of the Administrators will alter my avatar to say "Professor of Atlantology"  hmmm  ,somehow i dont think so , Cheesy  ,

That legend mentioned in Statesman at 269 concerns the movement of the sun and stars and how they changed their direction of movement across the sky . ...Also ,in Halcyon ,although it's not technically Platonic ,it refers to the legend of Halcyon . I read some note recently about the dialogues that used ancient legends in the arguments of the speakers. But i cant remember where it is ,lol ,i have just been searching all over the Complete Works of Plato for it !  ,sigh ,oh well   ..

Mine are the Complete Works... Edited by John M. Cooper, Hackett Publishing 1997  ,i think they r the ones u mentioned Gwen .



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Mark of Australia
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« Reply #21 on: February 25, 2007, 10:25:15 am »

I've just checked out Sacred Texts and Harvard Classics , ,,,thnx
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Mark of Australia
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« Reply #22 on: February 25, 2007, 11:16:43 am »

oh wow ,Hero Members huh , i guess i am just an underling ,, Cheesy

maybe one day i will become worthy of my heroes... ?? Grin  ,nevermind me ,I'm just tired .

I'd better write something useful ,,since i admit to getting annoyed when people  post stuff that has no topic at all or is just a randon jumble of ancient dates . I wont be naming any names Boreas ...oops  ,  sorry  sorry  , lets not end up like AR ,,What has got into me ? 

ok  , has anyone else noticed (correct me if I'm wrong), how the numbers given by Plato concerning the dimensions of the plain on Atlantis seem to contradict each other?  ,i have never heard of anyone else identifying this ,so i am probably wrong ,,my math aint too good .
 
Now ,and i quote from Critias," The plain was smooth and level and entirely rectangular .On its long sides it extended for three thousand stades and, as measured from the sea, it was over two thousand stades across."      ..As for the rectangular description,some translations may differ ,they may say oblong among other descriptions , but they all translate the numbers the same,, 2000 by 3000 stades.hmm, Interesting how it says  'over' two thousand ,but cant have been too much over 2000.  I will use a stadion of 185m ,since that is average length,and we are not sure of the exact figure ,if ever there was agreement amongst the ancients concerning it's length.

  So the plain was roughly 370 km by 555 km .

Later on in Critias,there is some more precious info about the plain      ," Now,as for the numbers of the men of the plain who were fit to serve in the army: each military district was assigned to contribute one commander.The area of each district was as much as a hundred stades.The total of these districts came to sixty thousand."      ...Again ,different translations do not alter the figures given.   So ,since it says each district was 'as much as' 100 stade, it may not necessarily mean they were all that size,  atleast one had an area of about 18 square kilometres. 

  What i am trying to say is , would it  even be possible to have 60000 districts of sizes up to 18 square km within an area 370km by 555 km Huh   

 And if so ,would the average size of the districts even be practical ?   ,it did say 'military district'  ,so that doesnt include wilderness or unpopulated areas i would have thought.

 I get the impression that this could be a contradiction within the story . Possibly to go along with the seemingly paradoxical figure of 9000 years mentioned in the story.

I hope someone can shed some light on this ,,please check my math  Wink

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unknown
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« Reply #23 on: February 25, 2007, 12:10:36 pm »

Hi Mark

Wow, thats very interesting about the stars changing directions, many people have postulated that it was a shift in the earth's crust that caused the destruction of Atlantis, one of the things they point to is the sudden freezing of mammoths in China and Russia. Mainstream Science does admit that magnetic poles  have shifted position many times in the past. Also I think the tilt of the Earth's axis is an indiction of a major cosmic colision.
« Last Edit: March 01, 2007, 10:45:51 pm by unknown » Report Spam   Logged

"There exists an agent, which is natural and divine, material and spiritual, a universal plastic mediator, a common receptical of the fluid vibrations of motion and the images of forms, a fluid, and a force, which can be called the Imagination of Nature..."
Elphias Levi
Mark of Australia
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« Reply #24 on: February 25, 2007, 09:17:29 pm »

I have looked into the Mammoths in Russia ,very strong evidence for the displacement ,,but i have never heard of Mammoths in China .If they froze in China ,wow ,that is a massive displacement, I'll check it out . Oh, in trying to maintain the correct topic ;  the elephants said by Plato to have been abundant on the island is one of the crucial details to the story of Atlantis i believe , but i wonder if the elephants mentioned were not actually elephants  but mammoths .

 A painting in the tomb of Rekhmire,vizier to Tuthmose III , shows a procession of tribute bearers ; the mysterious Keftiu ; among the exotic animals offered by them is what looks suspiciously like a dwarf mammoth , it is a little faint ,but it does look like a dwarf mammoth to me . In the accompanying text ,the animal is called by the Egyptian word for elephant.

 The painting dates from about 1450 BC . It is known that dwarf mammoth survived on Wrangel Island in the arctic up until about 2000 BC ,and on the Santa Rosa Islands off California up to a similar date. COuld Atlantis ,also an island, have supported a thriving population of Dwarf Mammoth up until the end of the Bronze Age ?  A real possibility i believe .

 Many see a connection between the dwarf mammoth populations that died out on the Mediterranean islands at the end of the Ice Age and the elephants of Atlantis ,since Atlantis was said to be extant 9000 years before Classical Greece ,ie. the end of the Ice Age . Maybe ,Maybe not . But Rekhmires tomb painting is definitely well within the second millenium BC. 
 
 I am for the view that dwarf mammoths survived on Atlantis up until it sank at the end of the Broze Age ,12th century BC

I am not sure if anyone has actually put forward this hypothesis about the elephants of Atlantis before  . I've read how one researcher hypothesized that the mammoth depicted in Rekhmires tomb actually came from Wrangel Island in the Arctic ,but not that it came from Atlantis .

hmm  ,this topic has diverged slightly..
 
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Gwen Parker
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« Reply #25 on: February 25, 2007, 09:20:05 pm »

Sacred Texts is wonderful Grin I haven't been to internet classics.

I have just been reading through your posts of the dialogs got a ways to go yet.

Hey Unknown!

Here is the link to Internet Classics, it is where I have been getting most of Plato's dialogues from:

http://classics.mit.edu/Browse/index.html

Since the site is a bit sporadic in the way it acts sometimes, it's all the more reason to get some of their Plato stuff (and other authors) over here.
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« Reply #26 on: February 25, 2007, 09:25:45 pm »

Hey Unknown ,

 I guess what i am suggesting is that I dont see a direct connection between the mystery of Siberias frozen mammoths and the destruction of Atlantis .   The most famous mammoth find ,the Berezovka Mammoth is actually dated to about 40000 BC if my memory serves me . I do believe in Hapgoods Earth Crust Displacement though.
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Gwen Parker
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« Reply #27 on: February 25, 2007, 09:28:42 pm »

Quote
oh wow ,Hero Members huh , i guess i am just an underling ,,

maybe one day i will become worthy of my heroes... ??   ,nevermind me ,I'm just tired .

Hi Mark,

Don't worry about the "hero member" status thing.  Stars are given based on participation here:

20 posts - 2 stars (jr member)
40 posts - 3 stars (full member)
75 posts - 4 stars (senior member)
100 posts - 5 stars (hero member)

So, if you want to be a hero member, get posting, I guess!


Quote
ok  , has anyone else noticed (correct me if I'm wrong), how the numbers given by Plato concerning the dimensions of the plain on Atlantis seem to contradict each other?  ,i have never heard of anyone else identifying this ,so i am probably wrong ,,my math aint too good .

I have no doubt that the units of measurements are all off.  Plato's large rectangular plain exists nowhere in the world, to my knowledge.  Even the Altiplano, one of the largest flat plains in the world does not match those dimensions.  That is one of the many reasons we need to look for a smaller, more credible Atlantis.
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Mark of Australia
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« Reply #28 on: February 25, 2007, 09:41:57 pm »

Hi Gwen

yes ,many researchers cannot reconcile with reality the figures given by Plato for Atlantis . Much of it is so hard to believe ,which Plato has Critias acknowledge . On top of that ,Atlantis ,for all its amazing dimensions and engineering works is suddenly destroyed literally overnight ,to remain conveniently undiscovered to this day ... I cannot begrudge anyone for not believing the story , even though i find it frustrating that mainstream acadaemia doesnt take it seriously. But hey ,,Gwen , you are our spy on the inside. Wink

 I wonder if u have decided on any particular reworking or explanation for the far-fetched figures of Platos Atlantis. As we know, there have been various alterations put forward by various scholars.   Are u leaning toward any  particular theory at the moment ?
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unknown
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« Reply #29 on: February 25, 2007, 11:13:37 pm »

Hi Gwen

I just checked out the internet classics thing, great site. just awesome Grin

Hi Mark

Yes, I believe they were found in China too, it has been part of the ivory trade in China for centuries,
Siberia you know.




« Last Edit: March 01, 2007, 10:48:05 pm by unknown » Report Spam   Logged

"There exists an agent, which is natural and divine, material and spiritual, a universal plastic mediator, a common receptical of the fluid vibrations of motion and the images of forms, a fluid, and a force, which can be called the Imagination of Nature..."
Elphias Levi
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