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Ice Free Antarctica Until 3,000 B.C.

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Author Topic: Ice Free Antarctica Until 3,000 B.C.  (Read 1023 times)
Tom Hebert
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« Reply #30 on: September 14, 2010, 12:05:09 pm »

Wow Qoais, you certainly have gone the extra mile in your research!

So it looks to me like the Atlantis-in-Antarctica notion has pretty much flatlined or was already DOA.
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Qoais
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« Reply #31 on: September 14, 2010, 01:36:39 pm »

Yes Tom, it was dead in the water - no pun intended Cheesy right from the get go.  The Antarctic has never been ice free for at least 700,000 years, so no, it was not further north than it is now, except maybe back when pangea broke up, before it came to rest where it is now.  There are those here in this forum, who put down others who ARE educated in different fields, and seem to think that having an education is  something to be mocked and sneered at.  However, it is from those very same educated people, we are not in ignorance of numerous things such as were the people of the "dark ages". 

The Piri Reis map has been shown to be not even close to indicating the true Antarctic, but rather it seems, in those days, people assumed there had to be land in the south, to counterbalance the land in the north, so they drew it in.  Also, when drawing the map, hides were expensive, so because he was running out of room, Reis turned the coast line so as to be able to fit it on the skin he was drawing on. 

Here's a link about that map.  There's another site I wanted to reference as well, but I have to find it again first!!

http://gianthoax.com/ancient-mysteries/

Nikas

Will you translate this for us?

http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:POxy1084_Hellanicus_Atlantis.png
« Last Edit: September 14, 2010, 02:01:33 pm by Qoais » Report Spam   Logged

An open-minded view of the past allows for an unprejudiced glimpse into the future.

Logic rules.

"Intellectual brilliance is no guarantee against being dead wrong."
Helios
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« Reply #32 on: September 14, 2010, 11:09:04 pm »

With respect to Qoais and her experts, I can see how the above hypothesis can be correct and science wrong (and I state this being a person who does not actually believe in the Antarctica theory, yet have always been intrigued by it).

In the first place, Antarctica is actually a microcosm of the earth. Anyone who looks at the natural state of this planet knows that the earth's natural state is that of ice and snow.  We are in an interglacial period now, a warming trend, but eventually the ice will return and the ice will grind most of what we built in the northern hemisphere, skyscrapers, bridges and the like, to nothing. 

Second, the reason why we think the ice in Antarctica (apart from the inhospitable climate) comes from dating the ice cores.  Well, science has shown it is wrong when it comes to carbon dating, so it is not beyond the realm of possibility that there is an error factor with ice cores dating as well.

This sentence of  Essan's intrigues me:

Quote
But this study says the waters were ice free from 10,000 years ago - ie 8,000BC.   And by implication not ice free prior to then Wink

I am sure if we thought about this, we can see the flaw in this thinking.  First off, Antarctica didn't need to be ice free for long, only for a period warm enough for a civilization to flourish there.

(As I said, earth's natural state is one of ice and snow).

Our current civilization is, at best, about five thousand years old, that's including the Sumerians and the Egyptians.  Most  of history is a blur before them.

The history of the British Isles is about two thousand years old.

America has only lasted for a little over two hundred years.

Plato does not state that Atlantis existed for hundreds of thousands of years, only that it was destroyed around 9600 bc.  It could have lasted two thousand years, or even simply two hundred years.  Therefore, all Antarctica would have needed is a warm spell just that long for a previously unknown civilization to have flourished there.  Ice cores are, of course, are not uniform in their age throughout the whole continent, and I very much doubt that every area of the continent's ice has been tested for age. That, plus the previously mentioned error factor when it comes to dating the ice cores still gives a possibility that a civilization did exist there, we just don't know about it yet.  That said, as I stated earlier, my first choice would be an Atlantic based location for the Atlantic.
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"This power came forth out of the Atlantic Ocean, for in those days the Atlantic was navigable; and there was an island situated in front of the straits called the Pillars of Heracles; the island was larger than Libya and Asia put together..."
Ostanes
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« Reply #33 on: September 15, 2010, 01:20:09 am »

With respect to Qoais and her experts, I can see how the above hypothesis can be correct and science wrong (and I state this being a person who does not actually believe in the Antarctica theory, yet have always been intrigued by it).

In the first place, Antarctica is actually a microcosm of the earth. Anyone who looks at the natural state of this planet knows that the earth's natural state is that of ice and snow.  We are in an interglacial period now, a warming trend, but eventually the ice will return and the ice will grind most of what we built in the northern hemisphere, skyscrapers, bridges and the like, to nothing. 

Second, the reason why we think the ice in Antarctica (apart from the inhospitable climate) comes from dating the ice cores.  Well, science has shown it is wrong when it comes to carbon dating, so it is not beyond the realm of possibility that there is an error factor with ice cores dating as well.
"Fundamentally, in counting any annual marker, we must ask whether it is absolutely unequivocal, or whether nonannual events could mimic or obscure a year. For the visible strata (and, we believe, for any other annual indicator at accumulation rates representative of central Greenland), it is almost certain that variability exists at the subseasonal or storm level, at the annual level, and for various longer periodicities (2-year, sunspot, etc.). We certainly must entertain the possibility of misidentifying the deposit of a large storm or a snow dune as an entire year or missing a weak indication of a summer and thus picking a 2-year interval as 1 year." -- Alley, R.B. et al., Visual-Stratigraphic Dating of the GISP2 Ice Core: Basis, Reproducibility, and Application, Journal of Geophysical Research, Volume 102, Number C12, Pages 26, 36726, 381, 1997.

"First glance intuition is often very helpful in coming up with a good hypothesis to explain a given phenomenon, such as the hundreds of thousands of layers of ice found in places like Greenland and Antarctica. It seems down right intuitive that each layer found in these ice sheets should represent an annual cycle. After all, this seems to fit the uniformitarian paradigm so well. However, a closer inspection of the data seems to favor a much more recent and catastrophic model of ice sheet formation. Violent weather disturbances with large storms, a sudden cold snap, and high precipitation rates could very reasonably give rise to all the layers, dust bands, and isotope variations etc. that we find in the various ice sheets today." -- Sean D. Pitman, doctor, December 2006

Quote
That said, as I stated earlier, my first choice would be an Atlantic based location for the Atlantic.
FYI Antarctica is in the Atlantic and furthermore it is a lost island continent in the "navel of the sea" (it being at the center of all longitudinal lines) and it "knows the depths of every sea."  Antarctica holds the world on it's shoulders.

"... on a sea-girt island, where the sea's navel is.
The island is forested, and on it a goddess makes her home,
the daughter of malign Atlas, he who knows the depths
of every sea and by himself holds the tall pillars
that hold apart heaven and earth
." -- Homer, poet, Odyssey, Book I, 50-54, 8th century B.C.
« Last Edit: September 15, 2010, 01:27:32 am by Ostanes » Report Spam   Logged
Qoais
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« Reply #34 on: September 15, 2010, 01:43:43 am »

There is none so blind as he who will not see.

They aren't MY experts, Helios.  They were quoted by Ostanes.  It was obvious he didn't understand the papers, so I contacted the authors of said papers, who have confirmed that the Antarctic has never been ice free.  The WATERS of the S. ATLANTIC have been ice free at times, but not Antarctica.  And yes, the core samples, thousands of them, do show that the ice has been there for hundreds of thousands of years. 

Ostanes, you can quote those same quotes over and over and over.  It doesn't change a thing.  I've already pointed out that even with an error margin of 75%, which is totally ridiculous to even contemplate, that the Antarctic would still have been covered in ice or 3 million years.  The one person you quote, Sean D. Pitman,  is merely a doctor who has no experience in geology, or archaeology or any other ology.  Get a grip.  Do some research.

The Antarctic is not lost, we know perfectly well where it is.

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An open-minded view of the past allows for an unprejudiced glimpse into the future.

Logic rules.

"Intellectual brilliance is no guarantee against being dead wrong."
Qoais
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« Reply #35 on: September 15, 2010, 01:53:55 am »

Found the other link I was looking for regarding the Piri Reis map:

http://www.uwgb.edu/dutchs/pseudosc/piriries.htm
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An open-minded view of the past allows for an unprejudiced glimpse into the future.

Logic rules.

"Intellectual brilliance is no guarantee against being dead wrong."
Helios
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« Reply #36 on: September 15, 2010, 02:11:49 am »

Quote
There is none so blind as he who will not see.

I take it that is to be directed at me? 
Did you even bother reading my post?  You don't address a single thing I brought up. And, as for the Piri Reis map, it has long been cited as evidence of an ice free Antarctica, even though I don't see it. Charles Hapgood cited it in his book, "Maps of the Ancient Sea Kings," a fine book postulating the idea of an Ice Age civilization, emanating out from the southern hemisphere.
There is much more we need to learn about earth's prehistory, I would not be so quick to place my faith in someone who suggests they have all the answers.  Especially when those answers are apt to change with each new discovery.
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"This power came forth out of the Atlantic Ocean, for in those days the Atlantic was navigable; and there was an island situated in front of the straits called the Pillars of Heracles; the island was larger than Libya and Asia put together..."
Qoais
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« Reply #37 on: September 15, 2010, 02:50:27 am »

No Helios, it wasn't directed at you.  However, if the shoe fits, wear it.

I have already addressed the fact that the Antarctic has not been ice free for hundreds of thousands of years.  There's been hundreds of scientists, who have done thousands of tests and core samples, and they all say the same thing.  Are they all wrong?  No they are not. As I've said already, even at 75% error factor, the results show that Antarctica has not been ice free.  You ask if I did not read your post.  Yes I did but have you not read the scientific papers? 

When all is said and done, Ostanes is basing this theory on Plato.  He says his sources are Sonchis of Sais, Solon, Dropides, Critias, and Plato. but who WROTE the story of Atlantis?  Only one of those people.  Nowhere does Plato give the name of the priest.  Anyone who comes after Plato, cannot know the name of the priest, because they weren't there.  Critias is a character in Plato's dialogs. 

Quote
Charles Hapgood cited it in his book, "Maps of the Ancient Sea Kings," a fine book postulating the idea of an Ice Age civilization, emanating out from the southern hemisphere

Yes, I've read the book and it IS a good read.  However, there are others who also have an interest in ancient maps, who explain that the Piri Reis map is not actually depicting Antarctica.  Hapgood also had the theory that Antarctica was ice free at one time, however as we have seen from the scientists themselves, the samples prove otherwise. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Hapgood
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An open-minded view of the past allows for an unprejudiced glimpse into the future.

Logic rules.

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Helios
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« Reply #38 on: September 15, 2010, 07:14:17 am »

I suppose the shoe does fit a and I will gladly wear it. You have a very tiresome manner of debate, do you know that?  Not only are you overly negative, you ignore other people's points, make a big deal out of inconsequential points, then make things personal needlessly.

I have noticed also that Bianca,Jim Allen, Greg Little, and many, many others have all left this forum after arguments with you. You are like a poison infecting this forum, and I, for one resent it.  A little skepticism is healthy, but the forum is all about the researchers, which is why it is called "Atlantis Online," not "Atlantis-haters anonymous." You don't even seem to be interested in the topic anymore (or any new ideas), so I have to ask, what are you even still doing here?
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"This power came forth out of the Atlantic Ocean, for in those days the Atlantic was navigable; and there was an island situated in front of the straits called the Pillars of Heracles; the island was larger than Libya and Asia put together..."
Qoais
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« Reply #39 on: September 15, 2010, 09:52:50 am »

Quote
You don't even seem to be interested in the topic anymore (or any new ideas)

And what have you contributed lately?  I notice my thread is 140 pages long, built that large because I've been posting information that I've found in my travels, searching for Atlantis.  How many pages is your thread?

Quote
You have a very tiresome manner of debate, do you know that?

No, I didn't.  Sorry.  I thought we were looking for the truth.  At least, I am.  I suppose that is tiresome isn't it?   

Helios, I was not making "it personal" so much, as trying to point out that even after I posted the messages from the scientists, you still were maintaining - like Ostanes - that the Antarctic was ice free.  So - like him - you're wearing the same shoe in other words.  Even after you've had the facts from the scientists, you still went on to say
Quote
I am sure if we thought about this, we can see the flaw in this thinking.  First off, Antarctica didn't need to be ice free for long, only for a period warm enough for a civilization to flourish there.

Let me quote you from another thread Helios:

Quote
It's hard to find good relevant information on Atlantis, there is so much New Age/channeling stuff on Atlantis.  Strictly speaking, I try to stay away from the mystics and stay with science.

So really, you don't believe in science then?

Quote
I have noticed also that Bianca,Jim Allen, Greg Little, and many, many others have all left this forum after arguments with you


I'm afraid you don't know what you're talking about.  Bianca and I were friends, up until the American election, and I said I liked Mr. Obama.  Then she turned on me.  She turned on  a number of other people who thought they were close friends and that was because of things that were going on behind the scenes regarding Greg Little and the A.R.E.

Jim Allen and Greg Little are professionals, they've written books, and put themselves out in the public domain.  They are adults and have to expect people to query their ideas.  The only reason they post in forums, is to promote their books.  It has nothing to do with what I said, that they aren't posting here.  For instance, if you check it out at Unexplained Mysteries, you will find that Greg Little pops in every once in a while, to mention some little thing that he's up to, say regarding Egypt and the illegal digging, and then he doesn't show up again until something else happens.  It's not like he takes part in the forums.  Most authors don't have time to participate in forums, so they have their own blogs.  Said authors are making money off of the story of Atlantis.  Of course they're going to be ticked off, if someone comes along and shows the buying public that they're chasing a rainbow.

Quote
but the forum is all about the researchers

You mean the ones still pretending Atlantis exists, so they can make money from it?
I am a researcher too.  I don't dive, I don't crawl around in caves, but I search out the truth.  But I guess the truth does hurt, in more ways than one. 

Quote
so I have to ask, what are you even still doing here?

Let me quote myself.

Quote
In this forum, people are free to express themselves, although there are a few who still don't get it, that even though someone doesn't agree with them, that person is still entitled to have their say without being insulted.  How boring it would be, if this was just a mutual admiration society, where everyone agreed with what everyone else said, and no one did any research for themselves.



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An open-minded view of the past allows for an unprejudiced glimpse into the future.

Logic rules.

"Intellectual brilliance is no guarantee against being dead wrong."
Ostanes
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« Reply #40 on: September 15, 2010, 10:56:11 am »

There is none so blind as he who will not see.
You should read that over and over.

Quote
They aren't MY experts, Helios.  They were quoted by Ostanes.  It was obvious he didn't understand the papers, so I contacted the authors of said papers, who have confirmed that the Antarctic has never been ice free.
It's not my fault if the authors don't even agree with their own research.

Quote
The WATERS of the S. ATLANTIC have been ice free at times, but not Antarctica.
LOL.  They said ice-free.  Ice-free is their words.

Quote
And yes, the core samples, thousands of them, do show that the ice has been there for hundreds of thousands of years.
The core samples don't show it; your interpretation of the core samples is that they show it.

Quote
Ostanes, you can quote those same quotes over and over and over.  It doesn't change a thing.
I know. Fundamentalists such as yourself can't be persuaded by peer-reviewed science.

Quote
I've already pointed out that even with an error margin of 75%, which is totally ridiculous to even contemplate, that the Antarctic would still have been covered in ice or 3 million years.
LOL.  What if the error is 100%?
 
Quote
The one person you quote, Sean D. Pitman,  is merely a doctor who has no experience in geology, or archaeology or any other ology.  Get a grip.  Do some research.
LOL  you claim doctors don't study any ologys?  I suggest you get an education because you really need it.

Quote
The Antarctic is not lost, we know perfectly well where it is
Well since Antarctica was never lost then I guess you believe Homer, Hellanicus, Herdotus, etc., all knew exactly where it is.
« Last Edit: September 15, 2010, 10:58:44 am by Ostanes » Report Spam   Logged
Qoais
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« Reply #41 on: September 15, 2010, 11:49:58 am »

Quote
It's not my fault if the authors don't even agree with their own research.

They do agree.  It's your understanding of the info that's at fault.  Do you honestly believe that all those scientists are 100% wrong and you're the only one who is right?

Quote
Quote
The WATERS of the S. ATLANTIC have been ice free at times, but not Antarctica.
Quote
LOL.  They said ice-free.  Ice-free is their words.

I didn't know the continent of Antarctica was made of water  I'm sure it's been discovered with all our new technology, that under all that ice, there's land.  The WATERS were ice free, not the land.  

Quote
The core samples don't show it; your interpretation of the core samples is that they show it.

It's got nothing to do with me.  It's what science has proven.

Quote
LOL.  What if the error is 100%?

LOL is right.  That IS hilarious.  Imagine - all those scientists being totally wrong. Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy

Quote
LOL  you claim doctors don't study any ologys?

Where did I claim that?  I said Sean D. Pitman, the Dr. you keep quoting as evidence or proof of your theory, is not a geologist nor is he an archaeologist.  He's a Geneticist.
 
This is what you said:
Quote
FYI Antarctica is in the Atlantic and furthermore it is a lost island continent in the "navel of the sea"

If it's lost, how come you know where it is?  Kind of a contradiction isn't it?
« Last Edit: September 15, 2010, 01:19:35 pm by Qoais » Report Spam   Logged

An open-minded view of the past allows for an unprejudiced glimpse into the future.

Logic rules.

"Intellectual brilliance is no guarantee against being dead wrong."
Qoais
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« Reply #42 on: September 15, 2010, 01:18:27 pm »

Here is a map showing how to interpret the Piri Reis map, showing that he turned S. America to get it to fit on his parchment.  Everybody makes such a big deal about the bottom of the map, but you'll notice, he also turned the top to make it fit.



Here is a link to another map by Piri Reis that he did later, and he does not show the Antarctic. 

http://art.thewalters.org/viewchild.aspx?parentid=19195&childid=78325
« Last Edit: September 15, 2010, 01:21:03 pm by Qoais » Report Spam   Logged

An open-minded view of the past allows for an unprejudiced glimpse into the future.

Logic rules.

"Intellectual brilliance is no guarantee against being dead wrong."
nikas
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« Reply #43 on: September 15, 2010, 08:47:16 pm »

deleted!
« Last Edit: September 13, 2015, 08:32:20 pm by nikas » Report Spam   Logged
Qoais
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« Reply #44 on: September 15, 2010, 09:30:54 pm »

Thanks very much Nikas. 
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An open-minded view of the past allows for an unprejudiced glimpse into the future.

Logic rules.

"Intellectual brilliance is no guarantee against being dead wrong."
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