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News: Plato's Atlantis: Fact, Fiction or Prophecy?
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http://www.underwaterarchaeology.com/atlantis-2.htm
 
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Ice Free Antarctica Until 3,000 B.C.

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Ostanes
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« Reply #15 on: September 12, 2010, 04:12:56 pm »

Nowhere, in any of those links, do any of those articles say that the Antarctica was ice free in the last 750,000 years.
Do you claim that when scientists say "ice free" what they actually mean is "not ice free"?

Do you claim that when scientists say an "ice shelf was absent" what they actually mean is the "ice shelf was not absent"?

Do you claim that when scientists say "warm" what they actually mean is "cold"?

Do you claim that when scientists say "neoglaciation" what they actually mean is "postglaciation"?

Do you claim that when scientists say "Holocene maximum" what they actually mean is "Holocene minimum"?

Do you claim that when scientists say "abrupt climate change" what they actually mean is "snail-paced uniformitarianism"?

Do you claim that when scientists say "temperature estimates from interglacial climates are likely to be too low" what they actually mean is "temperature estimates from interglacial climates are likely to be too high"?
« Last Edit: September 12, 2010, 04:30:49 pm by Ostanes » Report Spam   Logged
Qoais
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« Reply #16 on: September 12, 2010, 04:57:12 pm »

Copy and paste here, in this thread, from those articles, where it says that Antarctica was free of ice any time in the recent past.  Don't ask me what I think the articles say.  Show us exactly what you're referring to.  Since it is you who is saying the continent was ice free, it's up to you to show us exactly where it says that in the scientific research papers.

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An open-minded view of the past allows for an unprejudiced glimpse into the future.

Logic rules.

"Intellectual brilliance is no guarantee against being dead wrong."
Qoais
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« Reply #17 on: September 12, 2010, 05:18:00 pm »

Hi Qoais,

You certainly have done your homework!

I know you don't believe Atlantis ever existed, but IF it ever existed, it was located in the Atlantic.  Wouldn't you agree?

Tom


IF I was to answer that question Tom, I'd do it most carefully, for right from the start, Plato is not telling the truth, even though he says he is.  I posted this in my own thread almost a year ago.

From Diodorus Siculus:

60.  After the death of Hyperion, the myth relates, the kingdom was divided among the sons of Uranus, the most renowned of whom were Atlas and Cronus.  Of these sons Atlas received as his part the regions on the coast of the ocean, and he not only gave the name of Atlantians to his peoples but likewise called the greatest mountain in the land Atlas.  They also say that he perfected the science of astrology and was the first to publish to mankind the doctrine of the sphere, and it was for this reason that the idea was held that the entire heavens were supported upon the shoulders of Atlas, the myth darkly hinting in this way at his discovery and description of the sphere. 

In this story, we find that Atlas is the son of Uranus, not Poseidon.  So why would Plato say Atlas was the son of Poseidon?

This article also says that Atlas received as his part, the regions on the coast of the ocean and called the greatest mountain in the land Atlas.  Now we know the Atlas mountain(s) are in N.W. Africa, and that they end in the west opposite Gibraltar and in the East at Tunisia.  So from this account, Atlantis would be from Tunisia, west along the Med., and then once clear of the Strait of Gibraltar, South for who knows how far, since all of the rest of Africa, is bordered by the Ocean, and is therefore on the "coast".

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Tom Hebert
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« Reply #18 on: September 12, 2010, 06:05:01 pm »

I don't know.  Maybe he fell asleep during his religion class at the temple.   Smiley

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Qoais
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« Reply #19 on: September 12, 2010, 07:25:44 pm »

 Cheesy Cheesy
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An open-minded view of the past allows for an unprejudiced glimpse into the future.

Logic rules.

"Intellectual brilliance is no guarantee against being dead wrong."
Ostanes
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« Reply #20 on: September 13, 2010, 05:14:51 am »

Plato is not telling the truth, even though he says he is. 
Said the Sophist about the philosopher.

Quote
In this story, we find that Atlas is the son of Uranus, not Poseidon. 
So?

In Hellanicus of Lesbos's version it's Poseidon.

So since some say Rome was founded by Romulus and Remus and others say Aeneas, therefore Rome does not exist... Roll Eyes

Quote
So why would Plato say Atlas was the son of Poseidon?
Hmmm...I'm guessing because Plato actually knew what he's talking about and you don't.

"Plato's detractors have accused him of inventing the Atlantis myth in its entirety, but a book called Atlantis was written a century before. Unfortunately, only a fragment of Hellanicus' Atlantis survives, including the line, 'Poseidon mated with Celaeno, and their son Lycus was settled by his father in the Isles of the Blest and made immortal.' This bears similarities with Plato's account where Poseidon mates with Cleito and their son Atlas becomes the ruler of a marvelous land, while Hellanicus in turn may have taken the story from a still earlier Atlantis epic; alternatively, both may have drawn on Solon's story, which may have had a wider currency in the sixth century than we now realize." -- Rodney Castleden, author, Atlantis Destroyed, 1998
« Last Edit: September 13, 2010, 07:25:30 am by Ostanes » Report Spam   Logged
Qoais
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« Reply #21 on: September 13, 2010, 09:14:54 am »

Quote
I'm guessing because Plato actually knew what he's talking about and you don't.

Obviously, he doesn't. Nor does the writer who Siculus is copying, although in my opinion, what Siculus writes, is much more logic and probable than what Plato writes.  Plato used real events and real places for inspiration, but the story  is fabricated.

Theogeny of Greek Gods

Uranus mated with Gaia to create twelve Titans: Oceanus, Coeus, Crius, Hyperion, Iapetos, Theia, Rhea, Themis, Mnemosyne, Phoebe, Tethys, and Cronus; three cyclopes: Brontes, Steropes, and Arges; and three Hecatonchires: Kottos, Briareos, and Gyges.[12]

 Iapetos marries Klymene (an Okeanid Nymph) and had Atlas, Menoetius, Prometheus, and Epimetheus.
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An open-minded view of the past allows for an unprejudiced glimpse into the future.

Logic rules.

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Ostanes
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« Reply #22 on: September 13, 2010, 01:07:12 pm »

Obviously, he doesn't.
Obviously you're wrong and Plato was right.

Quote
Nor does the writer who Siculus is copying, although in my opinion, what Siculus writes, is much more logic and probable than what Plato writes.
LOL.

What "logic" tells you that Atlas is the son of Uranus and not Poseidon?

Would that be the same "logic" that told you that Antarctica has been covered in ice for tens of millions of years?

Would that be the same "logic" that told you that Columbus invented the sailboat?

Quote
Plato used real events and real places for inspiration
I agree.  Antarctica is a real place.

Quote
but the story is fabricated.
All stories are fabricated.  Doesn't mean Rome and Atlantis don't exist.
« Last Edit: September 13, 2010, 01:08:56 pm by Ostanes » Report Spam   Logged
Essan
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« Reply #23 on: September 13, 2010, 02:58:00 pm »

So Antarctic surface waters became ice free 10,000 years ago - only after Atlantis was supposedly destroyed .....  They were not ice free when Plato said Atlantis was at war with Athens.  Not that this study has any relevance to the land surface which was very much ice covered, though as today some coastal fringes would simply have been bitterly cold.

Anyway, of interest, the Arctic Ocean was probably ice free in summer around the same time.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/10/081020095850.htm

This was the height of the Holocene Climatic Optimum - before the neoglacial set it.
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Andy
Ostanes
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« Reply #24 on: September 13, 2010, 10:03:29 pm »

So Antarctic surface waters became ice free 10,000 years ago - only after Atlantis was supposedly destroyed .....  They were not ice free when Plato said Atlantis was at war with Athens.
False.

Plato said Atlantis existed in 9,600 B.C.-8,600 B.C. and possibly afterwards.

Therefore warm and ice-free.
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Essan
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« Reply #25 on: September 14, 2010, 03:02:55 am »

But this study says the waters were ice free from 10,000 years ago - ie 8,000BC.   And by implication not ice free prior to then Wink
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Andy
Qoais
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« Reply #26 on: September 14, 2010, 09:27:50 am »

When all else fails, get the facts from the source.

Ostanes, one of the links you gave for evidence of your theory was

Quote
Sime, L.C., et al., Evidence For Warmer Interglacials in East Antarctic Ice Cores, Nature, Number 462, Pages 342-345, Nov 19th 2009

You don't seem to be able to interpret what the article means, so to help you out, I contacted L.C. Sime, the author of that article.

Here is my inquiry and her reply:

Dear Sir or Madam

I am having a discussion with some folks about the Antarctic, and whether or not it was ever ice free, during the last 750,000 years or so.  I'm saying that it hasn't been, and one person has quoted your above work to prove that the ice was completely gone.

 
Would you be so kind as to affirm for me, one way or the other, just exactly what your work does say regarding the Antarctic being ice free in the semi-recent past?  I'd really appreciate it.

 
Thank you in advance.

Sincerely

Marie

Dear Marie,

 

The continuous EPICA Dome C ice core from East Antarctic extends back to about 820 000 year ago. This is direct evidence that Antarctica was ice covered at this time. It is thought that the Antarctic has not been ice free in several million years. There is strong evidence for this in ocean cores.

 

There have been some changes in the last 820 000 years to the shape, volume, and extent of the Antarctic ice sheet. These are changes are small  relative to the total volume of ice contained by the sheet. 

 

I am not aware of any ice core scientist or glaciologist ever suggesting that Antarctica was ice free 750 000 years ago, thus I am not sure where anyone might have got this idea from. It is not suggested in my 2009 Nature Letter. (The 2009 Letter also explicitly argues, using ice core evidence, for little change in the shape of the East Antarctic ice-sheet during the last ~340 000 years.)

 

Hope that helps,

Best wishes,

Louise Sime


Another one of the links you gave for reference for your ice free Antarctica theory was
Quote
Abrupt Early to Mid-Holocene Climatic Transition Registered at the Equator and the Poles

I contacted these people also.

My inquiry:

Dear Sir or Madam
I am in discussions with some folks, concerning whether or not Antarctica was ever ice free in the past 750,000 years or so.  I contend that it was not, but someone has linked us to the above article, and I'm hoping you will verify for us, what this means regarding an ice-free Antarctica.  Does this article in any way indicate, that you've discovered there was a time in the not so distant past, that the Antarctic was ice free?
 
Thank you in advance.
Sincerely
Marie

The reply:

Hi Marie;
 
Here's a comment you can pass along if you like:
 
Our 1997 article in Science doesn't indicate ice-free conditions on mainland Antarctica.  In fact, the very presence of the ice layers from which our Taylor Dome core data were obtained demonstrates that ice was present at there throughout the Holocene epoch, and that particular record extends even farther than that back into the depths of the last ice age.  The Mount Moulton ice sequence covers about half a million years, and the EPICA ice core, the longest one yet obtained from Antarctica, represents at least 750-800,000 years of continuous ice cover.
 
On the other hand, it might well be possible that certain small areas along the coastlines could have been ice-free at various times in the past while the main body of the continent was buried; areas such as the Dry Valleys are without ice cover today, for example.  And areas of floating sea ice could have changed dramatically over time.  But none of these conditions would qualify as an "ice-free Antarctica" in general.
 
Hope this helps;

Curt


As was said before, the SURFACE WATERS had to be ice free somewhere in time, for huge icebergs to be able to travel 1200 miles North and more, which is where they finally melted and dropped the detritus they were carrying which showed up in the ice cores, and allowed scientists to determine where the ice berg originated, which was on the Eastern side of Antarctica.  The Heard and McDonald islands lay east of Antarctica and they have a lot of volcanic activity.  Perhaps due to multitudindous euptions, as well as warmer temperatures, the surface ice melted or at least thinned enough for the ice bergs to break through and travel the great distances.


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An open-minded view of the past allows for an unprejudiced glimpse into the future.

Logic rules.

"Intellectual brilliance is no guarantee against being dead wrong."
nikas
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« Reply #27 on: September 14, 2010, 09:48:29 am »

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Qoais
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« Reply #28 on: September 14, 2010, 09:53:53 am »

Hi Nikas.  Long time no see.  Are you now advocating for Antarctica to be Atlantis, instead of Malta?  Perhaps you posted before you read my previous post, showing the response from the scientists who wrote the articles regarding the ice at the S. Pole. 
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An open-minded view of the past allows for an unprejudiced glimpse into the future.

Logic rules.

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nikas
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« Reply #29 on: September 14, 2010, 10:47:43 am »

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