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Ice Free Antarctica Until 3,000 B.C.

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Author Topic: Ice Free Antarctica Until 3,000 B.C.  (Read 1023 times)
Ostanes
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« on: September 09, 2010, 10:48:22 pm »

Hodell, E.A., et. al, Abrupt Cooling of Antarctic Surface Waters and Sea Ice Expansion in the South Atlantic Sector of the Southern Ocean at 5000 cal yr B.P., Quaternary Research, Volume 56, Issue 2, Pages 191-198, 2001

Quote
Antarctic surface waters were warm and ice free between 10,000 and 5000 cal yr B.P., as judged from ice-rafted debris and microfossils in a piston core at 53S in the South Atlantic. This evidence shows that about 5000 cal yr B.P., sea surface temperatures cooled, sea ice advanced, and the delivery of ice-rafted detritus (IRD) to the subantarctic South Atlantic increased abruptly. These changes mark the end of the Hypsithermal and onset of Neoglacial conditions. They coincide with an early Neoglacial advance of mountain glaciers in South America and New Zealand between 5400 and 4900 cal yr B.P., rapid middle Holocene climate changes inferred from the Taylor Dome Ice Core (Antarctica), cooling and increased IRD in the North Atlantic, and the end of the African humid period. The near synchrony and abruptness of all these climate changes suggest links among the tropics and both poles that involved nonlinear response to gradual changes in Northern Hemisphere insolation. Sea ice expansion in the Southern Ocean may have provided positive feedback that hastened the end of the Hypsithermal and African humid periods in the middle Holocene.
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Qoais
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« Reply #1 on: September 11, 2010, 09:01:07 pm »

The rather deceptive manner in which you are utilizing this data, will only fool those who don't do their own research.  Here's a link to some more recent information regarding the Quaternary glacial and climate history of Antarctica.

http://www3.hi.is/~oi/quaternary_glacial_history_of_antarctica.htm

the Vostok Ice Core Timescales

http://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/paleo/icecore/antarctica/vostok/vostok_timescales.html
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An open-minded view of the past allows for an unprejudiced glimpse into the future.

Logic rules.

"Intellectual brilliance is no guarantee against being dead wrong."
Ostanes
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« Reply #2 on: September 11, 2010, 10:36:48 pm »

The rather deceptive manner in which you are utilizing this data, will only fool those who don't do their own research.  Here's a link to some more recent information regarding the Quaternary glacial and climate history of Antarctica.

http://www3.hi.is/~oi/quaternary_glacial_history_of_antarctica.htm

the Vostok Ice Core Timescales

http://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/paleo/icecore/antarctica/vostok/vostok_timescales.html
Why do you think peer-reviewed science published in Quaternary Research is deceptive?

Do you claim scientists are deceptive because they wrote and published the following words, "Antarctic surface waters were warm and ice free between 10,000 and 5000 cal yr B.P., as judged from ice-rafted debris and microfossils in a piston core at 53S in the South Atlantic."

Do you claim to know more than the professional research scientists published in peer-reviewed journals?

If you do, then I suggest you write a paper and submit it for peer-review telling the scientists how stupid they are because they don't agree with your dogmatic orthodox pseudoscience.

The most recent data proves Antarctica was warm in the Holocene: http://atlantisonline.smfforfree2.com/index.php/topic,25794.0.html
« Last Edit: September 11, 2010, 10:46:59 pm by Ostanes » Report Spam   Logged
Qoais
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« Reply #3 on: September 11, 2010, 11:16:40 pm »

Quote
Why do you think peer-reviewed science published in Quaternary Research is deceptive?

I don't.  I said your manner of using the info is deceptive.  Stop trying to twist what I say. 

Read the information.  The waters were warmer as stated.  However, this did not make the Antarctic "ice free".  The  ice-rafted detritus they are speaking of, did not wash up on an ice free shore of the land mass.  It washed up on the outer edges of a somewhat receded ice shelf. 
Quote
and the delivery of ice-rafted detritus (IRD) to the subantarctic South Atlantic increased abruptly.

The coring was done in the South Atlantic, not Antarctica. 
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Ostanes
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« Reply #4 on: September 12, 2010, 12:11:58 am »

Quote
Why do you think peer-reviewed science published in Quaternary Research is deceptive?

I don't.  I said your manner of using the info is deceptive.  Stop trying to twist what I say. 

Read the information.  The waters were warmer as stated.  However, this did not make the Antarctic "ice free".  The  ice-rafted detritus they are speaking of, did not wash up on an ice free shore of the land mass.  It washed up on the outer edges of a somewhat receded ice shelf. 
Quote
and the delivery of ice-rafted detritus (IRD) to the subantarctic South Atlantic increased abruptly.

The coring was done in the South Atlantic, not Antarctica. 
The deceptive manner in which you are trying to interpret the words "warm and ice-free" is blatantly obvious.

Exactly what part of "ice free" don't you understand?

Stop trying to twist what scientists have actually published.
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Helios
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« Reply #5 on: September 12, 2010, 12:41:46 am »

I'll admit that the idea of Antarctica as Atlantis has always been intriguing to me.  In fact, this satellite photo (from the documantary, "Search for Atlantis") is something we have been passing around here for years.  Does it show concentric circles beneath the ice?



But no ancient relics, let alone ruins have ever been found there.  In fact, the ice sheet is so thick it would be impossible to even search for them.
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"This power came forth out of the Atlantic Ocean, for in those days the Atlantic was navigable; and there was an island situated in front of the straits called the Pillars of Heracles; the island was larger than Libya and Asia put together..."
Qoais
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« Reply #6 on: September 12, 2010, 09:53:06 am »

Ostanes, all you seem to want to do is argue, rather than having a discussion on the results of different scientific expeditions and research, so I'll leave you to it.

Please note that the article says that
Quote
Antarctic surface waters were warm and ice free between 10,000 and 5000 cal yr B.P
.  It does not say that the Antarctic was ice free.  If you ever had to melt ice to get a drink of water or to wash clothes, etc., you would realize that although the surface water can become quite warm, the ice is still there, below the surface water.  I have no doubt the scientists are reporting exactly what they found, and that is what I am studying.  If I don't understand the information, I try to find someone who is qualified who can help me out.  Don't try to keep insulting me with childish remarks, like I think I know everything.  I most certainly don't know everything and that's why I keep studying and personal insults have no place in a conversation or discussion with mature adults.

I realize you are studying also but if you want to interact with others and discuss the findings of different scientific endeavors, then perhaps you should lose the chip on your shoulder.  If you don't want discussion, then just open a thread and post your theory like others have done.  However, you must expect others to question your deductions and reasoning.  A lot of the posters in this forum are students, acquiring an education to achieve their career goals.  This forum was actually started by students who were in a different forum to begin with, and they got tired of certain people dominating the conversations, and not listening to what they had to say even though they were offering some wonderful dialog on a number of subjects.  In this forum, people are free to express themselves, although there are a few who still don't get it, that even though someone doesn't agree with them, that person is still entitled to have their say without being insulted.  How boring it would be, if this was just a mutual admiration society, where everyone agreed with what everyone else said, and no one did any research for themselves. 

I said your manner of using the info is deceptive.  I said this because you deliberately drop bits and pieces of information you seem to feel are relevant to whatever it is you're trying to point out, but you don't explain why you're using this information, what relevance it has to whatever you're trying to say, and in my opinion, you have misinterpreted the information given.  That is not an insult.  It's my observation of what you've put forward.  As far as I can figure out from what bits and pieces you've been dropping about the Antarctica,
you're trying to show that the Antarctica was ice free.  If that's not what you're trying to show, then I've totally misunderstood what it is you are trying to show.  However, if you re-read what the article says, as I pointed out before, it does not say the Antarctica was ice free. 

Perhaps you could fix the link in your first post in this thread as it doesn't work.
« Last Edit: September 12, 2010, 11:02:57 am by Qoais » Report Spam   Logged

An open-minded view of the past allows for an unprejudiced glimpse into the future.

Logic rules.

"Intellectual brilliance is no guarantee against being dead wrong."
Qoais
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« Reply #7 on: September 12, 2010, 11:10:41 am »

In an effort to help students understand what is being discussed in these papers, here is the further explanation by the same researchers, for Ice Rafted Detritus in the Antarctic and what it means. 
http://www.agu.org/journals/ABS/2010/2008PA001691.shtml

PALEOCEANOGRAPHY, VOL. 25, PA1202, 18 PP., 2010
doi:10.1029/2008PA001691

Determination of Antarctic Ice Sheet stability over the last ∼500 ka through a study of iceberg-rafted debris

Lora Teitler
Department of Earth and Environmental Sciences, California State University, East Bay, Hayward, California, USA

Detlef A. Warnke
Department of Earth and Environmental Sciences, California State University, East Bay, Hayward, California, USA

Kathryn A. Venz
Department of Geological Sciences, University of Florida, Gainesville, Florida, USA

David A. Hodell (NOTE:  THIS IS THE SAME PERSON AS CREDITED WITH THE ARTICLE OSTANES QUOTED)
Department of Geological Sciences, University of Florida, Gainesville, Florida, USA

Sabine Becquey
Association OCEAN, Bordeaux, France

Rainer Gersonde
Alfred Wegener Institute for Polar and Marine Research, Bremerhaven, Germany

Winston Teitler
Space Sciences Laboratory, University of California, Berkeley, California, USA

We have analyzed ice-rafted debris (IRD) from the South Atlantic Ocean (∼43S, 9E) in order to investigate Antarctic Ice Sheet history during the late Pleistocene; the cores examined for this study include piston core TN057-6-PC4 and Ocean Drilling Program Leg 177 drill core Site 1090 (177-1090). Over the last 500 ka at this distal location, IRD arrived during both glacials and interglacials. IRD is present even during warmer intervals, is greatest during colder intervals, and is absent only during terminations and a few other brief intervals. Four different methods are used to normalize the IRD counts, which are then compared to support our interpretation. Several other high-quality climate proxies from this location also aid our interpretations. We conclude that sea surface temperatures are the primary control on the delivery of IRD to this site. During cold times more icebergs survived to reach this distal location. During warm times only a few of the largest icebergs could travel this far. Garnets found in these sediments suggest a likely East Antarctic origin for the IRD; the presence of garnets even during warm intervals further strongly supports that the iceberg source must be the East Antarctic Ice Sheet (EAIS). Therefore, the EAIS must have continued to reach the ocean at least in some part of its margin throughout the last 500 ka. On the other hand, we cannot specifically trace any IRD to the West Antarctic Ice Sheet (WAIS), so WAIS persistence cannot be tested. A particular radiolarian, identified as Dictyocoryne profunda (Ehrenberg) (sensu Boltovskoy (1998)), shows up in the examined size fraction generally only during warm phases. We suggest that D. profunda is a sensitive indicator of warm water temperatures and that it deserves further study.

Received 22 September 2008; accepted 11 September 2009; published 23 January 2010.

Citation: Teitler, L., D. A. Warnke, K. A. Venz, D. A. Hodell, S. Becquey, R. Gersonde, and W. Teitler (2010), Determination of Antarctic Ice Sheet stability over the last ∼500 ka through a study of iceberg-rafted debris, Paleoceanography, 25, PA1202, doi:10.1029/2008PA001691.
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Qoais
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« Reply #8 on: September 12, 2010, 11:42:27 am »

In case you haven't looked it up, here is the location of the core sample- 43S 9E -  that shows that detritus was ice rafted here from the Antarctic.  This area is called the South Atlantic Ocean.



« Last Edit: September 12, 2010, 12:33:10 pm by Qoais » Report Spam   Logged

An open-minded view of the past allows for an unprejudiced glimpse into the future.

Logic rules.

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Qoais
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« Reply #9 on: September 12, 2010, 12:08:16 pm »

53 Degrees S. Atlantic



« Last Edit: September 12, 2010, 12:36:30 pm by Qoais » Report Spam   Logged

An open-minded view of the past allows for an unprejudiced glimpse into the future.

Logic rules.

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Qoais
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« Reply #10 on: September 12, 2010, 12:24:20 pm »

Subantarctic
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


The Antarctic Convergence, approximately 200 km south of the Antarctic Polar Front, is the border between two distinct regions: the subantarctic and the antarctic.
The Subantarctic is a region in the southern hemisphere, located immediately north of the Antarctic region. This translates roughly to a latitude of between 46 60 south of the Equator. The subantarctic region includes many islands in the southern parts of the Indian Ocean, Atlantic Ocean and Pacific Ocean, especially those situated north of the Antarctic Convergence. Subantarctic glaciers are, by definition, located on islands within the subantarctic region. All glaciers located on the continent of Antarctica are by definition considered to be antarctic glaciers.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subantarctic

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An open-minded view of the past allows for an unprejudiced glimpse into the future.

Logic rules.

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Tom Hebert
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« Reply #11 on: September 12, 2010, 12:58:15 pm »

Hi Qoais,

You certainly have done your homework!

I know you don't believe Atlantis ever existed, but IF it ever existed, it was located in the Atlantic.  Wouldn't you agree?

Tom
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Ostanes
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« Reply #12 on: September 12, 2010, 02:44:17 pm »

Qoais, you seem to think that the more you believe something the more true it is.
 
Since all you want to do is mislead people because you are in denial of history rather than discuss the results of different scientific expeditions and research, I'll leave it to you.

In an effort to help actual students, here are more peer-reviewed papers proving Antarctica was warm and ice-free during the time specified by Plato.

Stager, J.C., Mayeswski, P.A., Abrupt Early to Mid-Holocene Climatic Transition Registered at the Equator and the Poles, Science, Volume 276, Number 5320, Pages 1834-1836, Jun 1997

Quote
Paleoclimatic records from equatorial East Africa, Antarctica, and Greenland reveal that atmospheric circulation changed abruptly at the early to mid-Holocene transition to full postglacial conditions. A climatic reorganization occurred at all three sites between 8200 and 7800 years ago that lasted 200 years or less and appears to have been related to abrupt transitions in both marine and terrestrial records around the world.

Masson, V., et al., Holocene Climate Variability in Antarctica Based on 11 Ice-Core Isotopic Records, Quaternary Research, Volume 54, Issue 3, Pages 348-358, Nov 2000

Quote
All the records confirm the widespread Antarctic early Holocene optimum between 11,500 and 9000 yr; in the Ross Sea sector, a secondary optimum is identified between 7000 and 5000 yr, whereas all eastern Antarctic sites show a late optimum between 6000 and 3000 yr.

Hjort, C., et al., Holocene and Pre-Holocene Temporary Disappearance of the George VI Ice Shelf, Antarctic Penninsula, Antarctic Science, Volume 13, Number 3, Pages 296-301, 2001

Quote
Barnacle Bathylasma corolliforme shells sampled from ice shelf moraines at Two Step Cliffs on Alexander Island have been dated to c. 5750-6000 14C yr BP (c. 6550-6850 cal yr BP)

Pudsey C.J., and Evans, J., First Survey of Antarctic SubIce Shelf Sediments Reveals Mid-Holocene Ice Shelf Retreat, Geology, Volume 29, Number 9, Pages 787-790, Sep 2001

Quote
The retreat of five small Antarctic Peninsula ice shelves in the late 20th century has been related to regional (possibly anthropogenic) climate warming. We use the record of ice-rafted debris (IRD) in cores to show that the Prince Gustav Channel ice shelf also retreated in mid-Holocene time. Early and late Holocene-age sediments contain IRD derived entirely from local ice drainage basins, which fed the section of ice shelf covering each site. Core- top and mid-Holocene (52 ka) sediments include a wider variety of rock types, recording the drift of far-traveled icebergs, which implies seasonally open water at the sites. The period when the Prince Gustav ice shelf was absent corresponds to regional climate warming deduced from other paleoenvironmental records. We infer that the recent decay cannot be viewed as an unequivocal indicator of anthropogenic climate perturbation.

Perkins, S., Antarctic Sediments Muddy Climate Debate, Science News, Sep 8th 2001

Quote
Ocean-floor sediments drilled from Antarctic regions recently covered by ice shelves suggest that those shelves were only 2,000 years old.

Gore, D.B. et al., Bunger Hills, East Antarctica: Ice free at the Last Glacial Maximum, Geology, Volume 29, Number 12, Pages 1103-1106, Dec 2001

Quote
Optically stimulated luminescence dating of glaciofluvial and glacial-lake shoreline sediments indicates that the Bunger Hills area, in coastal East Antarctica, was largely ice free by the Last Glacial Maximum (LGM). Deglaciation commenced as early as 30 ka, and the southern hills were completely exposed by 20 ka. The sediments do not record evidence of an LGM readvance. Previous reconstructions of LGM ice limits for the area are incompatible with this new evidence.

Bentley, M.J., et al., Early Holocene Retreat of the George VI Ice Shelf, Antarctic Peninsula, Geology, Volume 33, Number 3, Pages 173-176, Mar 2005

Quote
The recent collapse of several Antarctic Peninsula ice shelves has been linked to rapid regional atmospheric warming during the twentieth century. New high-resolution lake sediment records of Holocene ice-shelf behavior show that the George VI Ice Shelf was absent beginning ca. 9595 calibrated (cal.) yr B.P., but reformed by ca. 7945 cal. yr B.P. This retreat immediately followed a period of maximum Holocene warmth that is recorded in some ice cores and occurred at the same time as an influx of warmer ocean water onto the Antarctic Peninsula shelf. The absence of the ice shelf suggests that early Holocene ocean-atmosphere variability in the Antarctic Peninsula was greater than that measured in recent decades.

Bentley, M.J., and Hodgson, D.A., Antarctic Ice Sheet and Climate History Since the Last Glacial Maximum, Pages, Volume 17, Number 1, Jan 2009

Quote
Results showed that there are two warm periods recorded in most of the proxy records - a period of early Holocene warmth, and a Mid-Holocene Hypsithermal (Fig. 3)

Bentley, M.J., et al., Mechanisms of Holocene Palaeoenvironmental Change in the Antarctic Peninsula Region, The Holocene, Volume 19, Number 1, Pages 51-69, 2009

Quote
Two warm events are well recorded in the Holocene palaeoclimate record, namely the early Holocene warm period, and the `Mid Holocene Hypsithermal' (MHH)

Sime, L.C., et al., Evidence For Warmer Interglacials in East Antarctic Ice Cores, Nature, Number 462, Pages 342-345, Nov 19th 2009

Quote
We conclude that previous temperature estimates from interglacial climates are likely to be too low.
« Last Edit: September 12, 2010, 02:59:00 pm by Ostanes » Report Spam   Logged
Ostanes
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« Reply #13 on: September 12, 2010, 02:47:10 pm »

In case you haven't looked it up, here is the Antarctica we are referring to.

« Last Edit: September 12, 2010, 02:55:42 pm by Ostanes » Report Spam   Logged
Qoais
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« Reply #14 on: September 12, 2010, 04:07:55 pm »

Nowhere, in any of those links, do any of those articles say that the Antarctica was ice free in the last 750,000 years.  If they do, then it is up to you to show in simple language that most non-professionals understand, where it says this.  We know there were temperature fluctuations, we know the ice came and went repeatedly, to certain degrees, we know the ocean doesn't freeze right to bottom, so in order for an ice berg to travel from it's point of frozen origin, the surface ice had to have melted enough for an ice berg to break through it and travel over 1200 miles to where they took the core sample.  But nowhere, does anyone say that Antarctica was ice free in the last 750,000 years.

It is you Ostanes, that feels because you believe it so much it's true. 
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An open-minded view of the past allows for an unprejudiced glimpse into the future.

Logic rules.

"Intellectual brilliance is no guarantee against being dead wrong."
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