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The White Island: Antarctica

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Qoais
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« Reply #15 on: September 06, 2010, 11:27:38 pm »

It isn't a matter of whether I believe Plato or not.  It's a matter of you adding to what Plato wrote.  The Antarctic isn't submerged in the ocean.  It is covered with ice.  The ice is fresh water ice, not salt water ice, therefore, the land is not submerged and covered with frozen salt water.

The Antarctic ice sheet is one of the two polar ice packs of the Earth. It covers about 98% of the Antarctic continent and is the largest single mass of ice on Earth. It covers an area of almost 14 million square km and contains 30 million cubic km of ice. That is, approximately 61 percent of all fresh water on the Earth is held in the Antarctic ice sheet, an amount equivalent to 70 m of water in the world's oceans.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antarctic_ice_sheet

Sorry, but as far as I'm concerned, Wiki is satisfactory for explaining this fact.  I'm sure if people want to confirm what the wiki article says, they can pay for a Jstor hook up and read a few scientific papers.

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Ostanes -
"Ahura Mazda warns Yima, the first king of men, of the approach of a dire winter, which is to destroy every living creature by covering the land with a thick sheet of ice, and advises Yima to build a Vara, or an enclosure, to preserve the seeds of every kind of animal and plant." -- Zend-Avesta, Fargard II, 1000 B.C.

So?

I live in Canada. I used to live in the province of Alberta.   Every fall, we gathered in seeds, and prepared shelters for the animals because the land is going to be frozen over.  Does that make Alberta, Atlantis?  It still freezes over every winter and Atlantis it ain't. 

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Ostanes
Let's suppose all the Antarctic ice sheet was laid down catastrophically all at once in agreement with the historical record.

There is no historical record showing the ice sheet was laid down all at once.  The article you are quoting is simply saying there may be a margin for error, and scientists accept that there can be a margin of error.  However, that margin of error is not so huge that it would make all the scientists who have studied the Antarctic, wrong.  In other words, the margin of error does not make the whole theory erroneous.  As I said, even if we allow a 75% error margin in the readings, it still doesn't come up Atlantis.  It still comes out that the Antarctic was covered in ice 11,500 years ago when Atlantis supposedly sunk, and she was covered in ice for a lot longer than that as well. 
« Last Edit: September 06, 2010, 11:31:44 pm by Qoais » Report Spam   Logged

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« Reply #16 on: September 06, 2010, 11:46:07 pm »

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Ostanes
But anyway, it seems this Graham Hancock fellow is more credible than Keith Fitzpatrick-Matthews will ever be.

How can Graham Hancock be more credible that Keith Fitzpatrick-Mathews?  Hancock is an author.  He writes books that cause a "sensation" because that's what makes people buy them, making him wealthy.  Fitzpatrick-Matthews is an archaeologist.  By his own admission Hancock is not.  So if he's not, why does he write about a subject he's not trained in?  To make money of course.
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« Reply #17 on: September 07, 2010, 12:26:51 am »

It isn't a matter of whether I believe Plato or not.
So why don't you believe Plato? 

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It's a matter of you adding to what Plato wrote.
Reality is.  I can't add anything to it.

The island of Atlas, holds the world on it's shoulders because Antarctica, the White Island Atlantis, is at the bottom of the world. 

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The Antarctic isn't submerged in the ocean.
In fact it is.

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It is covered with ice.
Exactly.

The last time I checked ice is water.
 
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The ice is fresh water ice, not salt water ice, therefore, the land is not submerged and covered with frozen salt water.
Proving that there was an Ogygian flood as described by Plato in the relevant dialogues.

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The Antarctic ice sheet is one of the two polar ice packs of the Earth. It covers about 98% of the Antarctic continent and is the largest single mass of ice on Earth. It covers an area of almost 14 million square km and contains 30 million cubic km of ice. That is, approximately 61 percent of all fresh water on the Earth is held in the Antarctic ice sheet, an amount equivalent to 70 m of water in the world's oceans.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antarctic_ice_sheet
What do you claim caused the catastrophe and the shift of the South Pole 14 million years ago?

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Sorry, but as far as I'm concerned, Wiki is satisfactory for explaining this fact.
I'd sooner believe that Cinderella had invisible pink unicorns aboard Noah's Ark than believe Wikipedia.

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I'm sure if people want to confirm what the wiki article says, they can pay for a Jstor hook up and read a few scientific papers.
I already showed you the relevant peer-reviewed science but it seems you are in denial?

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Ostanes -
"Ahura Mazda warns Yima, the first king of men, of the approach of a dire winter, which is to destroy every living creature by covering the land with a thick sheet of ice, and advises Yima to build a Vara, or an enclosure, to preserve the seeds of every kind of animal and plant." -- Zend-Avesta, Fargard II, 1000 B.C.

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So?
I'm guessing you'll never know.

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I live in Canada. I used to live in the province of Alberta.   Every fall, we gathered in seeds, and prepared shelters for the animals because the land is going to be frozen over.
There's a guy who lives near you named Rand Flem-Ath.  You should try and learn something from him.

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Does that make Alberta, Atlantis?  It still freezes over every winter and Atlantis it ain't.
No: Antarctica is Atlantis. 

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Ostanes

There is no historical record showing the ice sheet was laid down all at once.
In fact, there is.

I already showed it to you but you deliberately ignored it for obvious reasons and motives.

"Ahura Mazda warns Yima, the first king of men, of the approach of a dire winter, which is to destroy every living creature by covering the land with a thick sheet of ice, and advises Yima to build a Vara, or an enclosure, to preserve the seeds of every kind of animal and plant." -- Zend-Avesta, Fargard II, 1000 B.C.

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The article you are quoting is simply saying there may be a margin for error, and scientists accept that there can be a margin of error.  However, that margin of error is not so huge that it would make all the scientists who have studied the Antarctic, wrong.  In other words, the margin of error does not make the whole theory erroneous.  As I said, even if we allow a 75% error margin in the readings, it still doesn't come up Atlantis.  It still comes out that the Antarctic was covered in ice 11,500 years ago when Atlantis supposedly sunk, and she was covered in ice for a lot longer than that as well. 
I think blind faith is what you offer to us.
« Last Edit: September 07, 2010, 12:40:07 am by Ostanes » Report Spam   Logged
Ostanes
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« Reply #18 on: September 07, 2010, 12:44:49 am »

How can Graham Hancock be more credible that Keith Fitzpatrick-Mathews?
How can God be more credible than Charles Darwin?

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Hancock is an author. He writes books that cause a "sensation" because that's what makes people buy them, making him wealthy.
So too was Charles Darwin an author.  A theologian by training but an author nevertheless.  I guess we should all look deeper into the economic motives of the evolution industry.

"Evolutionary science is as much about the posturing, salesmanship, stonewalling and bullying that goes on as it is about actual scientific theory. It is a social discourse involving hypotheses of staggering complexity with scientists, recipients of the biggest grants of any intellectuals, assuming the power of politicians while engaged in Animal House pie-throwing and name calling: "ham-fisted", "looney Marxist hangover", "secular creationist", "philosopher" (a scientist who can't get grants anymore), "quack", "crackpot" ... In short, it's a modern day quest for the holy grail, but with few knights. At a time that calls for scientific vision, scientific inquiry's been hijacked by an industry of greed, with evolution books hyped like snake oil at a carnival. Perhaps the most egregious display of commercial dishonesty is this year's celebration of Charles Darwin's On the Origin of Species -- the so-called theory of evolution by natural selection, i.e. survival of the fittest, a brand foisted on us 150 years ago. Scientists agree that natural selection can occur. But the scientific community also knows that natural selection has little to do with long-term changes in populations." -- Suzan Mazur, author, The Altenberg 16: An Expose of the Evolution Industry, Feb 2010

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Fitzpatrick-Matthews is an archaeologist.
An admitedly bad one.  His website is appropriately named.

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By his own admission Hancock is not.
So?  If a janitor at McDonalds said Antarctica is Atlantis it would still be true.

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So if he's not, why does he write about a subject he's not trained in?  To make money of course.
Are you an archaeologist?  I'm beginning to question your economic motives.
« Last Edit: September 07, 2010, 12:49:12 am by Ostanes » Report Spam   Logged
Qoais
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« Reply #19 on: September 07, 2010, 01:39:27 am »

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So why don't you believe Plato?  

I've already said why a number of times.  Because  as far as our modern sciences have shown so far the articles and technology he describes, didn't exist in the time frame he gives.

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Reality is.  I can't add anything to it.
mumbo jumbo

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The island of Atlas, holds the world on it's shoulders because Antarctica, the White Island Atlantis, is at the bottom of the world.


What does this mean?  Nothing.  In reference to Atlas, he held the heavens on his shoulders.

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In fact it is.
Nope

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Proving that there was an Ogygian flood as described by Plato in the relevant dialogues.

What has a flood in Attica got to do with the Antarctica?  Different authors have given different dates to the Ogygian flood.

According to Africanus, he lived at the time of the Exodus of the House of Israel from Egypt.[7]
The first worldwide flood of Greek mythology, called the Ogygian deluge, occurred during his reign and derives its name from him—though some sources regard it as a local flood, such as an inundation of Lake Copais, a large lake once in the center of Boeotia.[8] Other sources see it as a flood associated with Attica.[9] This latter view was accepted by Africanus, who says "that great and first flood occurred in Attica, when Phoroneus was king of Argos, as Acusilaus relates."
When this deluge has been considered global, a similarity is noticed with Noah's flood in the Bible. Various dates have been assigned to the event, including 9500 BCE (Plato),[10] 2136 BCE (Varro), and 1796 BCE (Africanus).[11]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ogyges

If Ogyges lived at the time of the Exodus from Egypt, the deluge referred to by his name, certainly can't be before his existence.  Plato's Atlantis sunk long before the Exodus supposedly took place.

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What do you claim caused the catastrophe and the shift of the South Pole 14 million years ago?

There wasn't one.

True polar wander
Main article: True polar wander
True polar wander, or the motion of the solid Earth with respect to a fixed spin axis that causes the spin axis to lie over a new geographic position, does occur. This is because of changes in mass distribution throughout the Earth that modify its moment of inertia tensor. The Earth consistently readjusts its orientation with respect to its spin axis such that its spin axis is parallel to the axis about which it has its greatest moment of inertia.[4] This readjustment is very slow. In 2001, historical evidence for true polar wander was found in paleomagnetic data from granitic rocks from across North America. The data from these rocks conflict with the hypothesis of a cataclysmic true polar wander event. This evidence indicated that the geographical poles have not deviated by more than about 5° over the last 130 million years.[18] More rapid past possible occurrences of true polar wander have been measured: from 790 to 810 million years ago, true polar wander of approximately 55° occurred twice.[4]

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I'd sooner believe that Cinderella had invisible pink unicorns aboard Noah's Ark than believe Wikipedia.
Suit yourself.  As I said, perhaps you use Jstor to acquire your information, but I doubt it.

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I think blind faith is what you offer to us.

I'm not offering anything except what modern science has shown to be true.  I did not see in the statement you quoted

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"First glance intuition is often very helpful in coming up with a good hypothesis to explain a given phenomenon, such as the hundreds of thousands of layers of ice found in places like Greenland and Antarctica. It seems down right intuitive that each layer found in these ice sheets should represent an annual cycle. After all, this seems to fit the uniformitarian paradigm so well. However, a closer inspection of the data seems to favor a much more recent and catastrophic model of ice sheet formation. Violent weather disturbances with large storms, a sudden cold snap, and high precipitation rates could very reasonably give rise to all the layers, dust bands, and isotope variations etc. that we find in the various ice sheets today." -- Sean D. Pitman, doctor, December 2006

where it says that humongous ice sheet was laid down all a once.  What is Sean D. Pitman a doctor of, and why don't you link us to his information?  There are no high precipitation rates in Antarctica. It is considered a desert because there is very little precipitation.  So it sounds like he doesn't know what he's talking about.  


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Qoais
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« Reply #20 on: September 07, 2010, 01:55:57 am »

Quote
Are you an archaeologist?  I'm beginning to question your economic motives.
Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy

In regards to what?

What has evolution got to do with Plato's Atlantis?  Are you a Michael Cremo advocate then?  He's not an archaeologist either.

If there is evidence out there, that man developed the technologies Plato spoke of, in the time frame Plato talks about, then bring it on.  Link us to it so we my all be enlightened.   
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An open-minded view of the past allows for an unprejudiced glimpse into the future.

Logic rules.

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Ostanes
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« Reply #21 on: September 07, 2010, 02:55:15 am »

Because  as far as our modern sciences have shown so far the articles and technology he describes, didn't exist in the time frame he gives.
As far as modern scholars are concerned Gravity is an uncaused omnipotent deity that spontaneously created the universe by violating conservation of matter and energy in a miraculous Big Bang that lead to invisible magic forces such as Dark Energy and Dark Flow and an infinity of galaxies. 

This lead to a primordial soup which spontaneously generated magic crystals which miraculously evolved into living organisms.

Then single-celled organisms magically evolved into all the diversity of life we see including intelligent humans.

Modern science is a joke.

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In reference to Atlas, he held the heavens on his shoulders.
Duh.

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What has a flood in Attica got to do with the Antarctica?  Different authors have given different dates to the Ogygian flood.
Well since you've never read Plato's Timaeus it's obvious you have no clue what floods have to do with Atlantis.

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There wasn't one.
So the South Pole just magically shifted into a temperate Antarctica with no catastrophic climate effects?

How do you propose that's possible? Divine Intervention?

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True polar wander
Main article: True polar wander
True polar wander, or the motion of the solid Earth with respect to a fixed spin axis that causes the spin axis to lie over a new geographic position, does occur. This is because of changes in mass distribution throughout the Earth that modify its moment of inertia tensor. The Earth consistently readjusts its orientation with respect to its spin axis such that its spin axis is parallel to the axis about which it has its greatest moment of inertia.[4] This readjustment is very slow. In 2001, historical evidence for true polar wander was found in paleomagnetic data from granitic rocks from across North America. The data from these rocks conflict with the hypothesis of a cataclysmic true polar wander event. This evidence indicated that the geographical poles have not deviated by more than about 5° over the last 130 million years.[18] More rapid past possible occurrences of true polar wander have been measured: from 790 to 810 million years ago, true polar wander of approximately 55° occurred twice.[4]
So it only has happened twice?  What caused it to happen twice?  Sounds like pseudoscientific hocus pocus and not science.

Unfortunately it doesn't account for the warm water coral, dinosaurs, and temperate forests that grew at the South Pole.

And it certainly doesn't account for maps of an ice-free Antarctica or Atlantis.
« Last Edit: September 07, 2010, 03:08:26 am by Ostanes » Report Spam   Logged
Ostanes
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« Reply #22 on: September 07, 2010, 02:59:17 am »

If there is evidence out there, that man developed the technologies Plato spoke of, in the time frame Plato talks about, then bring it on.  Link us to it so we my all be enlightened.
Have you ever read the Rig Veda or the Mahabharata?

I'm guessing the answer is no since you've been brainwashed to believe in channeling.
« Last Edit: September 07, 2010, 03:00:13 am by Ostanes » Report Spam   Logged
Qoais
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« Reply #23 on: September 07, 2010, 03:34:34 am »

Yes, I've read the Rig Veda and the Mahabharata, although not all of the Mahabharata.  So what?  Those writings have nothing to do with Atlantis no matter how you try to  make them fit.  The White Island they refer to is a state of heightened awareness, not an actual island. 


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As far as modern scholars are concerned Gravity is an uncaused omnipotent deity that spontaneously created the universe by violating conservation of matter and energy in a miraculous Big Bang that lead to invisible magic forces such as Dark Energy and Dark Flow and an infinity of galaxies. 

This lead to a primordial soup which spontaneously generated magic crystals which miraculously evolved into living organisms.

Then single-celled organisms magically evolved into all the diversity of life we see including humans.
 Modern science is a joke.

What are you so bitter about?  Can you prove the scientists wrong? You're entitled to your opinion.  If you know everything so much better that the scientists, why don't you write a book and share your profound knowledge?

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Well since you've never read Plato's Timaeus it's obvious you have no clue what floods have to do with Atlantis.

Seems like you just enjoy baiting people.  Floods - plural as you've stated - don't have anything to do with Atlantis.  Only one flood - the one that sunk her.  The one Plato invented to bring his story to a climax.  The other floods that he mentioned, had to do with Athens.  Are you sure you've read Timaeus?


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An open-minded view of the past allows for an unprejudiced glimpse into the future.

Logic rules.

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Ostanes
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« Reply #24 on: September 07, 2010, 05:55:36 am »

The White Island they refer to is a state of heightened awareness, not an actual island. 
How do you explain the fact that the Mahabharata and Herodotus both say Atlanteans never sleep and never dream?

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What are you so bitter about?
Infinite ignorance and stupidity.

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Can you prove the scientists wrong?
Very easily.

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You're entitled to your opinion.
I know. 

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If you know everything so much better that the scientists, why don't you write a book and share your profound knowledge?
I intend to.  Right now all I have is a blog: http://oilismastery.blogspot.com/

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Floods - plural as you've stated - don't have anything to do with Atlantis.  Only one flood - the one that sunk her.  The one Plato invented to bring his story to a climax.  The other floods that he mentioned, had to do with Athens.  Are you sure you've read Timaeus?
If you'd have actually read Plato's Timaeus you would know that the priest identified by Plutarch as Sonchis of Sais refers to more than one flood.

"As for those genealogies of yours which you just now recounted to us, Solon, they are no better than the tales of children. In the first place you remember a single deluge only, but there were many previous ones; in the next place, you do not know that there formerly dwelt in your land the fairest and noblest race of men which ever lived, and that you and your whole city are descended from a small seed or remnant of them which survived. And this was unknown to you, because, for many generations, the survivors of that destruction died, leaving no written word." -- Sonchis of Sais, priest, 6th century B.C.
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Robert0326
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« Reply #25 on: September 07, 2010, 09:12:53 am »

Sorry to interrupt but I have to correct something.  The theory that Atlantis is in Antarctica is not Hancocks theory.  It's actually Rand Flem-Ath's/Charles Hangoods theory.  Hancock just subscribes to his theory as the possible location for the city.
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Qoais
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« Reply #26 on: September 07, 2010, 10:29:38 am »

Thanks Robert0326.  I knew  that.  I have the Flem-Ath's book. 

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How do you explain the fact that the Mahabharata and Herodotus both say Atlanteans never sleep and never dream?

They don't.

Herodotus said "they never dream, and eat no living thing".

The Mahabharata says "they take no nourishment and their eyes do not blink". 

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If you'd have actually read Plato's Timaeus you would know that the priest identified by Plutarch as Sonchis of Sais refers to more than one flood.



If you'd have actually read Plato's Timaeus you would know that he does not mention the priest by name, and that when he refers to the floods in the past, he is referring to what has happened to the Athenians in the past and why they lost their histories, whereas, Sais was not bothered by those floods, and therefore they did have the records. 

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Thereupon one of the priests, who was of a very great age, said: O Solon, Solon, you Hellenes are never anything but children, and there is not an old man among you. Solon in return asked him what he meant. I mean to say, he replied, that in mind you are all young; there is no old opinion handed down among you by ancient tradition, nor any science which is hoary with age. And I will tell you why.

There have been, and will be again, many destructions of mankind arising out of many causes; the greatest have been brought about by the agencies of fire and water, and other lesser ones by innumerable other causes. There is a story, which even you have preserved, that once upon a time Paethon, the son of Helios, having yoked the steeds in his father's chariot, because he was not able to drive them in the path of his father, burnt up all that was upon the earth, and was himself destroyed by a thunderbolt. Now this has the form of a myth, but really signifies a declination of the bodies moving in the heavens around the earth, and a great conflagration of things upon the earth, which recurs after long intervals; at such times those who live upon the mountains and in dry and lofty places are more liable to destruction than those who dwell by rivers or on the seashore. And from this calamity the Nile, who is our never-failing saviour, delivers and preserves us.


Athens gets flooded - Sais doesn't.

Here's a link explaining about the History of Indian Literature - regarding the inhabitants of the "White Island". 

http://books.google.ca/books?id=FYPOVdzZ2UIC&pg=PA422&lpg=PA422&dq=mahabharata+%2B+White+Island&source=bl&ots=IUgJScsfcq&sig=cuss43msOxNjquzwbVYlS1Ukf1o&hl=en&ei=Z1WGTNq8PI6osQOB3Oz2Bw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=7&ved=0CDcQ6AEwBg#v=onepage&q=mahabharata%20%2B%20White%20Island&f=false

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An open-minded view of the past allows for an unprejudiced glimpse into the future.

Logic rules.

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Ostanes
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« Reply #27 on: September 07, 2010, 12:41:06 pm »

They don't.

Herodotus said "they never dream, and eat no living thing".

The Mahabharata says "they take no nourishment and their eyes do not blink". 
LOL... Roll Eyes

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If you'd have actually read Plato's Timaeus you would know that he does not mention the priest by name, and that when he refers to the floods in the past, he is referring to what has happened to the Athenians in the past and why they lost their histories, whereas, Sais was not bothered by those floods, and therefore they did have the records. 
Right and also there was no Holocaust... Roll Eyes
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Qoais
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« Reply #28 on: September 07, 2010, 01:32:17 pm »

Ostanes, you seem to have a private agenda of some sort that the rest of us are not privy to, and you don't seem to want to enlighten us.  I feel there is no point in continuing trying to make sense of your one liners and antagonistic attitude.
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Ostanes
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« Reply #29 on: September 07, 2010, 03:53:43 pm »

I mistakenly posted this in the wrong thread, previously.

Gondwanaland breakup (160–23 Ma)
The cooling of Antarctica occurred stepwise, as the continental spread changed the oceanic currents from longitudinal equator-to-pole temperature-equalizing currents to latitudinal currents that preserved and accentuated latitude temperature differences.
Africa separated from Antarctica around 160 Ma, followed by the Indian subcontinent, in the early Cretaceous (about 125 Ma). About 65 Ma, Antarctica (then connected to Australia) still had a tropical to subtropical climate, complete with a marsupial fauna. About 40 Ma Australia-New Guinea separated from Antarctica, so that latitudinal currents could isolate Antarctica from Australia, and the first ice began to appear. During the Eocene-Oligocene extinction event about 34 million years ago, CO2 levels have been found to be about 760 ppm[28] and had been decreasing from earlier levels in the thousands of ppm. Around 23 Ma, the Drake Passage opened between Antarctica and South America, resulting in the Antarctic Circumpolar Current that completely isolated the continent. Models of the changes suggest that declining CO2 levels became more important.[29] The ice began to spread, replacing the forests that then covered the continent. Since about 15 Ma, the continent has been mostly covered with ice,[30] with the Antarctic ice cap reaching its present extension around 6 Ma.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antarctica
By the way Qoais.

Retardipedia's claim that Antarctica was covered in ice for tens of millions of years is a blatant lie.

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1200/is_v129/ai_4164401/

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scientists working on the continent itself have uncovered the wooden remains of what they believe was an extensive forest that flourished only 400 miles from the South Pole about 3 million years ago.
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