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Human Female Sexuality

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Veronica Poe
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« Reply #15 on: August 03, 2007, 12:33:10 am »

Myth: Abortion is murder.

Fact: Abortion does not meet the moral or legal definition of murder.


Summary


Murder is defined as "illegal killing with malice aforethought." Abortion fails this definition for two reasons. First, abortion is not illegal, and second, there is no evidence to suggest that expecting mothers feel malice towards their own flesh and blood.


Argument

Is abortion murder?

Not all killing is murder, of course. Murder is actually a small subset of all killing, which includes accidental homicide, killing in self-defense, suicide, euthanasia, etc. When pro-life activists call abortion "murder," they are suggesting that abortion fits the definition of murder, namely, "illegal killing with malice aforethought." However, abortion fails this definition for two reasons. First, abortion is not illegal, and second, mothers hardly feel malice towards their own unborn children.

Some might object the first point is overly legalistic. Just because killing is legal doesn't make it right. Exterminating Jews in Nazi Germany was certainly legal, but few doubt that it was murder.

But why do we still consider the Holocaust murder? The answer is that we hold the Nazis to a higher law. When the Nazis were tried in Nuremberg for their war crimes, they were not accused of "crimes against Germans" or even "crimes against Jews." Instead, they were charged with "crimes against humanity." The reason is because there was no legal basis to charge them otherwise. The massacre of Jews was legal under German law. So in order to punish the German leaders for clearly wrong behavior, the Allies had to evoke a higher law, a law of humanity. (1) The Holocaust was condemned as illegal, and therefore murder, because it violated this law.

Many pro-life advocates claim that the same reasoning applies to abortion. Although abortion is legal under current U.S. law, it is not legal when it is held up to a higher law, namely, the law of God.

Let's assume, for argument's sake, that the Bible is indeed the law of God. Unfortunately, this doesn't help the pro-life movement, because there is no Biblical law against abortion. (Abortion is as old as childbirth.) The Hebrew word for "kill" in the commandment "Thou shalt not kill" is rasach, which is more accurately interpreted as "murder," or illegal killing judged harmful by the community. It is itself a relative, legalistic term!

Many forms of killing were considered legal in ancient Israel, and levitical law listed many of the exceptions. Generally, levitical law permitted killing in times of war, the commission of justice and in self-defense. Sometimes, God even gave Israel permission to kill infant children. In I Samuel 15:3, God ordered Saul to massacre the Amalekites: "Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants..."

Unfortunately, the levitical law we find in the Bible today is incomplete, and comes to us in large gaps. That is because the ancient Jews passed down their laws orally, and only wrote down the more complicated laws to jog their memory. As a result, levitical law is filled with tremendous omissions; for example, we know little of their laws on libel, business, lending, alimony, lease, rental agreements and civil rights. But perhaps the most unfortunate gap in ancient Jewish law is abortion. If a law did exist on abortion, then we simply do not know what it was. Fortunately, we have an excellent idea of what the law might have been. The Jews are legendary for their fanatical preservation of the law, and they have never considered abortion to be a sin. That alone should make many pro-life advocates stop and reconsider the legal basis, holy or otherwise, for their opposition to abortion.

Some pro-life Christians claim that just because there is no commandment prohibiting abortion does not give us the right to perform it. Since human life is so precious, we should err on the side of caution, they argue. But according to this logic, we should not drive cars! Each year in America, there are about 40,000 deaths due to automobile accidents. These deaths are accidental, to be sure, but our decision to participate in a mode of transportation that we already know will kill 40,000 people is not accidental. We also know there were virtually no deaths in horse-and-buggy days. We have decided to accept those 40,000 deaths a year simply because we value the convenience -- a notion surely not found anywhere in the Bible. But should we stop all automobile travel just because of Biblical silence on the issue?

One could equally argue that if God thought the issue were important, he would have made sure to include such a law in the Bible. The omission of such a law suggests that God allows humans to exercise their best judgment in the matter.

The second part of the definition of murder involves malice. Is it really reasonable to assume that mothers feel malice towards their own unborn children? Why would they even feel that? What has the fetus done to inspire the mother's hatred, anger, hostility and revenge? This is not the way women react to news of their pregnancy, even an unwanted one, as any woman who has gone through an abortion will tell you. It is a reaction that only men in the pro-life movement find plausible.

Some abortion opponents may then try to claim that the murder is cold-blooded, that the malice involved is really a callous, unfeeling disregard for human life. But again, any woman who has gone through an abortion will tell you that it just isn't so. They are fully aware of what they are doing and the moral implications of it. All would prefer not to go through the abortion, and feel sorrow and regret for having to do so. But they ultimately decide that the abortion is for the best, that they are not ready for the even greater moral responsibility of bringing a child into the world. Christian conservatives may question the wisdom of such a choice, but they can hardly question the emotions behind it.

The accusation that abortion is murder, in fact, places the burden of proof on the accuser. If women do indeed feel malice towards their own flesh and blood, then the accuser needs to supply the requisite proof, studies, or surveys to make his case. But such evidence will probably never be forthcoming.

LiberalFAQ.htm" \l "Backabortion <<...OLE_Obj...>> Return to Overview

Endnotes:

1. Although the moral basis of the Nuremberg trials has never been in doubt, their legal basis is still a matter of controversy. Germany never signed an agreement of international law prohibiting genocide -- indeed, genocide was declared a violation of international law only at the Nuremberg trials themselves. In other words, the Allies retroactively applied international law to the Nazi war crimes. Ultimately, the legal basis for the Nazis' prosecution rested on the law of world opinion, or even, many claimed, the law of God. This raises many thorny questions, such as: whose opinion? And whose God? When the criminals are as obviously evil as the Nazis, then world opinion tends to be united, and there is no controversy. But what about a subject like abortion, in which the majority of public opinion is pro-choice, and on which most religions have different teachings? In this case, evoking a "higher law" becomes problematic, to say the least.

http://www.huppi.com/kangaroo/L-abortion.htm
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Veronica Poe
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« Reply #16 on: August 03, 2007, 12:33:50 am »

ABOUT ABORTIONS

History


Abortion has been in existence since the Ancient times and practiced by women all over the world. From primitive potions to barbaric tools and odd instruments, women resorted to painful, humiliating procedures in order to induce a miscarriage. When you take a look at the evolution of abortion, the reasons are clear WHY Hope Clinic was established and continues to exist today.


2600 BC –First recorded recipe for an abortion producing drug.
1850 BC –Egyptians record recipe for contraceptive pessaries, one made from crocodile dung.

4th Century AD –St.Augustine lays down Catholic dogma sanctioning abortion up to 80 days for female fetus and up to 40 days for male fetus.
13th Century AD -St.Thomas Aquinas states Catholic dogma justifying sexual intercourse only for procreation.
1564 AD -Italian anatomist, Fallopius, discoverer of Fallopian tubes, publicizes condoms as anti-venereal disease devices.
1588 – Pope Sixtus forbids all abortions.
1591 – Pope Gregory XIV rescinds Pope Sixtus’ edict against abortion.
1803 – Great Britain makes abortion a misdemeanor.
1821 – Connecticut outlaws abortion after quickening, early abortions are legal.
1860’s – All states pass comprehensive, criminal abortion laws. Most remain until 1973.
1869 – Pope Pius IX forbids all abortions in exchange for France’s Napoleon III acknowledging papal infallibility. France’s population experienced a sharp decrease over the previous 60 years.
1873 – Federal Comstock laws enacted prohibiting mailing or distribution of information on birth control and abortion.
1879 – Margaret Higgins Sanger is born. She led the movement for birth control in the U.S.
1882 – First “modern” birth control clinic in the world opens in Holland, sponsored by trade unions.
1913 – Margaret Sanger arrested for violation of Comstock laws because of feminist birth control columns in, The Woman Rebel.
1916 - Margaret Sanger & her sister, Ethel Byrne jailed for dispensing contraceptive information at first American birth control clinic in Brooklyn, NY.
1924 – First scientific confirmation of women’s ovulatory and fertility cycle.
1930 – Pope Pius XI affirms Catholic dogma that every act of sexual intercourse is a sin unless performed with a reproductive intent.
1942 – Margaret Sanger’s Birth Control Federation of America becomes Planned Parenthood Federation of America.
1956 – Dr. John Rock (a Catholic) and others developed the birth control pill. Their research was funded by two women.
1960’s – FBI crime reports showed organized crime rings made enormous profits performing dangerous abortions. Any doctors caught performing a safe abortion were sent to prison, fined, and had their medical license taken away.
1963 – Pope Paul IV issues encyclical Humanae Vitae condemning artificial birth control.
1965 – In Griswold v. Connecticut, U.S. Supreme Court rules Connecticut’s law prohibiting birth control for married couples violates a newly defined right of marital privacy.
1967 – Then-Governor Ronald Reagan of California signs the most liberal abortion law of the times allowing freedom of choice during the first 20 weeks of pregnancy.
1970 – Hawaii, Alaska, and New York repeal criminal abortion laws allowing abortion in the first trimester.
1970 – Belotti v Baird II decision allows states to require parental consent for abortion so long as there is a confidential judicial bypass.
1972 – Supreme Court finds the right to privacy of unmarried persons violated by Massachusetts law against distribution of contraceptives in Eisenstadt v Baird. Justice Brennan in the majority opinion states that all Americans have a right to bear and beget children free from government interference.
1973 – On January 22, 1973 the U.S. Supreme Court in a 7-2 decision, hands down Roe v Wade making a 1st trimester abortion a private decision between a woman & her physician. In the 2nd trimester states
can put limitations on abortion with regard to the health of the pregnant woman. In the 3rd trimester states can make abortion illegal except to save the life of the woman.
1973 – Indiana passes first call for a Constitutional Convention to ban abortion.
1974 - Hope Clinic for Women in Granite City, IL, opens as one of the first abortion providers.
1976 – Hyde Amendment is passed barring the use of federal Medicaid funds to provide abortions to poor women.
1977 – A revised Hyde Amendment is passed which allows states to deny Medicaid funding except in cases of ****, incest, or severe and long lasting damage to the woman’s physical health. Rosise Jimenez, a 27- year-old mother on welfare, died of an illegal abortion as she could not afford to get a legal abortion due to the Hyde Amendment.
1977 – First reported arson at an abortion clinic (in St. Paul, MN) and first know bombing of an abortion clinic (in Cincinnati, OH).
1980 – 19 of the 34 states required have passed calls for a Constitutional Convention.
1982 - Janyary, 1/3 of Hope Clinic destroyed by fire bomb.
1982 - August, physician who owns Hope Clinic kidnapped along with his wife by three men calling themselves the Army of God. Both were held bound, blindfolded, and gagged on the dirt floor of an abandoned munitions bunker for eight days. All three men went to jail.
1989 – Webster v Reproductive Health Services is handed down by Supreme Court allowing states to place increased restrictions on access.
1991 – Supreme Court upholds Title X gag rule (restriction on mentioning abortion in federally funded clinics) in Rust v Sullivan. Congress votes overwhelmingly to overturn gag rule, but override of Pres. Bush’s veto fails narrowly.
1993 – Newly inaugurated President Clinton reverses several anti-choice policies of Reagan & Bush administrations including gag rule.
1993 – Dr.David Gunn is murdered by anti-choice fanatic in Florida. He is the first of a series of abortion providers shot in the following years.
1994 – President Clinton signs Freedom of Access to Clinic Entrances Act (FACE) making it a federal crime to interfere with the provision of reproductive health care.
1994 – Dr. John Britton, Lt. Col. Jim Barrett, Shannon Lowney, and Leanne Nichols are murdered in shootings at three abortion clinics.
1995 – U.S. clinical trials of mifepristone (RU486)
1998 – 25 years of legal abortion in America.
1999 - Hope Clinic moves to state-of-the-art building.
2000 – FDA approves Mifeprex (RU486)
2000 - Hope Clinic begins offering the abortion pill (Mifeprex).
2004 - Hope Clinic turns 30 years old.

http://www.hopeclinic.com/AbortionHistory.htm
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Volitzer
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« Reply #17 on: August 05, 2007, 03:40:15 pm »

Myth: Abortion is murder.

Fact: Abortion does not meet the moral or legal definition of murder.


Summary


Murder is defined as "illegal killing with malice aforethought." Abortion fails this definition for two reasons. First, abortion is not illegal, and second, there is no evidence to suggest that expecting mothers feel malice towards their own flesh and blood.

It's not about malice it is about taking the life of the unborn.   The commandment "Thou shall NOT kill!!!" is universal.  Unless a woman gets raped or her own life is in danger then abortion for any other reason is wrong.

Argument

Is abortion murder?

Not all killing is murder, of course. Murder is actually a small subset of all killing, which includes accidental homicide, killing in self-defense, suicide, euthanasia, etc. When pro-life activists call abortion "murder," they are suggesting that abortion fits the definition of murder, namely, "illegal killing with malice aforethought." However, abortion fails this definition for two reasons. First, abortion is not illegal, and second, mothers hardly feel malice towards their own unborn children.

Some might object the first point is overly legalistic. Just because killing is legal doesn't make it right. Exterminating Jews in Nazi Germany was certainly legal, but few doubt that it was murder.

But why do we still consider the Holocaust murder? The answer is that we hold the Nazis to a higher law. When the Nazis were tried in Nuremberg for their war crimes, they were not accused of "crimes against Germans" or even "crimes against Jews." Instead, they were charged with "crimes against humanity." The reason is because there was no legal basis to charge them otherwise. The massacre of Jews was legal under German law. So in order to punish the German leaders for clearly wrong behavior, the Allies had to evoke a higher law, a law of humanity. (1) The Holocaust was condemned as illegal, and therefore murder, because it violated this law.

Many pro-life advocates claim that the same reasoning applies to abortion. Although abortion is legal under current U.S. law, it is not legal when it is held up to a higher law, namely, the law of God.

Let's assume, for argument's sake, that the Bible is indeed the law of God. Unfortunately, this doesn't help the pro-life movement, because there is no Biblical law against abortion. (Abortion is as old as childbirth.) The Hebrew word for "kill" in the commandment "Thou shalt not kill" is rasach, which is more accurately interpreted as "murder," or illegal killing judged harmful by the community. It is itself a relative, legalistic term!

Many forms of killing were considered legal in ancient Israel, and levitical law listed many of the exceptions. Generally, levitical law permitted killing in times of war, the commission of justice and in self-defense. Sometimes, God even gave Israel permission to kill infant children. In I Samuel 15:3, God ordered Saul to massacre the Amalekites: "Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants..."

Unfortunately, the levitical law we find in the Bible today is incomplete, and comes to us in large gaps. That is because the ancient Jews passed down their laws orally, and only wrote down the more complicated laws to jog their memory. As a result, levitical law is filled with tremendous omissions; for example, we know little of their laws on libel, business, lending, alimony, lease, rental agreements and civil rights. But perhaps the most unfortunate gap in ancient Jewish law is abortion. If a law did exist on abortion, then we simply do not know what it was. Fortunately, we have an excellent idea of what the law might have been. The Jews are legendary for their fanatical preservation of the law, and they have never considered abortion to be a sin. That alone should make many pro-life advocates stop and reconsider the legal basis, holy or otherwise, for their opposition to abortion.

Some pro-life Christians claim that just because there is no commandment prohibiting abortion does not give us the right to perform it. Since human life is so precious, we should err on the side of caution, they argue. But according to this logic, we should not drive cars! Each year in America, there are about 40,000 deaths due to automobile accidents. These deaths are accidental, to be sure, but our decision to participate in a mode of transportation that we already know will kill 40,000 people is not accidental. We also know there were virtually no deaths in horse-and-buggy days. We have decided to accept those 40,000 deaths a year simply because we value the convenience -- a notion surely not found anywhere in the Bible. But should we stop all automobile travel just because of Biblical silence on the issue?

One could equally argue that if God thought the issue were important, he would have made sure to include such a law in the Bible. The omission of such a law suggests that God allows humans to exercise their best judgment in the matter.

The second part of the definition of murder involves malice. Is it really reasonable to assume that mothers feel malice towards their own unborn children? Why would they even feel that? What has the fetus done to inspire the mother's hatred, anger, hostility and revenge? This is not the way women react to news of their pregnancy, even an unwanted one, as any woman who has gone through an abortion will tell you. It is a reaction that only men in the pro-life movement find plausible.

Some abortion opponents may then try to claim that the murder is cold-blooded, that the malice involved is really a callous, unfeeling disregard for human life. But again, any woman who has gone through an abortion will tell you that it just isn't so. They are fully aware of what they are doing and the moral implications of it. All would prefer not to go through the abortion, and feel sorrow and regret for having to do so. But they ultimately decide that the abortion is for the best, that they are not ready for the even greater moral responsibility of bringing a child into the world. Christian conservatives may question the wisdom of such a choice, but they can hardly question the emotions behind it.

The accusation that abortion is murder, in fact, places the burden of proof on the accuser. If women do indeed feel malice towards their own flesh and blood, then the accuser needs to supply the requisite proof, studies, or surveys to make his case. But such evidence will probably never be forthcoming.

LiberalFAQ.htm" \l "Backabortion <<...OLE_Obj...>> Return to Overview

Endnotes:

1. Although the moral basis of the Nuremberg trials has never been in doubt, their legal basis is still a matter of controversy. Germany never signed an agreement of international law prohibiting genocide -- indeed, genocide was declared a violation of international law only at the Nuremberg trials themselves. In other words, the Allies retroactively applied international law to the Nazi war crimes. Ultimately, the legal basis for the Nazis' prosecution rested on the law of world opinion, or even, many claimed, the law of God. This raises many thorny questions, such as: whose opinion? And whose God? When the criminals are as obviously evil as the Nazis, then world opinion tends to be united, and there is no controversy. But what about a subject like abortion, in which the majority of public opinion is pro-choice, and on which most religions have different teachings? In this case, evoking a "higher law" becomes problematic, to say the least.

http://www.huppi.com/kangaroo/L-abortion.htm

Look women need to responsible with their sexuality.  There's eHarmony so either use birth control or find someone who cares for kids as much as you do.  Either way when a fetus is in development it is a mother's responsibility to see it through.
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Jeannette Latoria
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« Reply #18 on: August 05, 2007, 07:08:40 pm »

You know where you can stick that one, Volitzer.  The Bible says NOTHING about abortion.  Also, the law does NOT grant a fetus the same legal rights as a woman.  So where does your "do not kill" idea come from? It comes from the Catholic Church, yep, the same old woman-hating, overly sexist backwards institution that has been putting women down for centuries.

Fine if you want to buy into their "dogma." Just don't expect other people to share those same backwards beliefs. 
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Volitzer
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« Reply #19 on: August 05, 2007, 07:31:32 pm »

You know where you can stick that one, Volitzer.  The Bible says NOTHING about abortion.  Also, the law does NOT grant a fetus the same legal rights as a woman.  So where does your "do not kill" idea come from? It comes from the Catholic Church, yep, the same old woman-hating, overly sexist backwards institution that has been putting women down for centuries.

Fine if you want to buy into their "dogma." Just don't expect other people to share those same backwards beliefs. 

The 10 Commandments are for everyone, fetuses as well.  Why you women are buying into such a culture of death mentality is beyond me.  Women have no more a right to abort fetuses than the Nazis have to exterminate Jews, no matter how you legalize it.
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Jeannette Latoria
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« Reply #20 on: August 07, 2007, 01:11:03 pm »

Quote
The 10 Commandments are for everyone, fetuses as well.


No, they aren't, they are for Christians and Jews. Plus, even they don't say anything about abortion, so you can stick your misguided sense of what is right and wrong where the sun doesn't shine. 

You really need to get over yourself.  People do not have to share your religious beliefs, that is what freedom of religion is all about.  A lot of Catholics don't even buy your version of when life begins.

Plus, even if women didn't have any abortions, you're the type of guy that would then complain about all the children you would then be supporting on welfare. Not only is there no logic to any of your arguments, there isn't much common sense to them either.
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Volitzer
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« Reply #21 on: August 08, 2007, 01:23:13 am »

If the government sabotages the economy then welfare is their punishment.

Killing is killing no matter what you are.

Besides women are awfully stupid into thinking that having the right to have an abortion won't fit into the Illuminati's plan for their population control agenda.  It does.
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