WAS ATLANTIS REAL?

[Desiree]

Science is the only verification we have for complicated things like cities miles down in the ocean, but we should also have records from other civilizations that had contact with such an advanced civilization as Atlantis.  As I said, there is not record of any such people in the history of Italy.  Nor in the history of the other countries she supposedly held sway over.

Yeah, but you really can't trust science when it comes to Atlantis.  You have to know that scientists aren't really interested in looking for things that prove the existence of Atlantis, that's why each time, when there is some new discovery you have to sort of piece it together yourself, and then ask, does this fit?

About that island in the Atlantic story, well, it actually does fit.  The ship existed, and, back in the early 1960's, the Atlantic spit up a similar island, Surtsey, which I think is still around today,  And Greg Little will tell you that the islands in the Bahamas were all one big island at one time. Do archaeologists or geographers ever talk about that?  No! Same with the pre-Clovis people, which archaeologists don't want to acknowledge existed. Modern science is controlled by stubborn, outdated dogma, which is why you take their theories with a grain of salt.

[HereForNow]

He SAID mud shoals. 

An asteroid hit out in the ocean would not affect Greece, approx. 2500-3000 miles away. 

Well I'm no expert on these things, but ummmmmm.
There are a million things that happen when an ASTROID slams into our mother Earth.

[HereForNow]

Again, We are all back to guessing that Atlantis was in one place or another and an actual location for it has never been found. Secondly, what are the origional sources for the story? Plato and Edger Cayce.....
Others mention it throughout history, but the two names we associate Atlantis with the most in this forum are these two gentalmen. So, based on what they tell us. Atlantis was Real and still nothing has surfaced. I don't mean to be cynical here but in reality, there is no proof of an Atlantis. Just stories!

I love thinking that there was once this mystical place that had these highly advanced machines and everything worked as one with nature. I think everyone feels this idea as a distant, collective memeory of something they once knew. Yet the proof is in the pudding.
No exact location, No pictures, no statements from world wide leaders announcing the discovery thereof.... It's my own opinion, that until any one of these things are produced. That Atlantis, was a legend passed along through the ages to encourage the world to wonder about HER and seek her.
Nothing more, and nothing less.

[Qoais]

According to files Dr. Greg Little found at the A.R.E., the Russians retracted their statements.

[Desiree]

I don't remember anything about them retracting their statements ever publicly. 

Here is the initial article if anyone is interested:


Soviet Scientist Says Ocean Site May Be Atlantis

By Craig Whitney

Special to the New York Times

Moscow, May 20 - Plato, Sir Arthur Conan Doyle and all you science fiction writers who have puzzled over the lost Continent of Atlantis, move over for Prof. Andrei Arkadyevich Aksyonov.

Soviet scientists may maintain that the so-called Bermuda Triangle, an area in the Atlantic where mysterious disappearances of ships and planes is said to have occurred, is nothing but water and that flying saucers are optical illusions. But Prof. Aksyonov says he has photographs of man-made stone walls and staircases at a depth of about 200 feet in the Atlantic Ocean, 275 miles southwest of the Portuguese coast.

Maybe.

"It's possible that it's a part of Atlantis, maybe not the whole thing, but a part," Dr. Aksynov said.  He is a man of established scientific reputation, a deputy director of the Institute of Oceanology of the Soviet Academy of Sciences.

His evidence, he concedes, is limited:  two pictures showing eleven stones that he believes bear the mark of human handiwork.

The photographs were taken two years ago, not by Dr. Aksyonov but by a colleague, Vladimir I. Marakuyev.

(Photo here)

The New York Times, May 21, 1979

A Soviet Scientist said he found ruins on the Ampere Searmouts

with a submersible camera on the submerged summit of the Ampere Seamount, a dormant volcano midway between Lisbon and the Madeira archipelago.  The ocean floor around the seamount is more than 10,000 feet below the surface.

In his office at the institute, D. Aksyonov said recently that he was sorry but he could not show the pictures.  "They belong to Marakuyev, and he is very sick with a heart condition in the hospital," he said.  "I think they'll be published in one of our scientific journals sometime soon."

Mr. Marakyev apparently did not realize what he had until late last year, when he got around to developing film from a 1977 exploration of the seamount that he had made in the Soviet research vessel Moskovsky Universitet.  "I don't why it took him so long to get to them," Dr, Aksyonov said.

An offer of Directions

He will not say he has discovered Atlantis, but he offers free directions to anybody else who wants to.  "All you would have to do is take a ship with the right equipment to the Ampere Seamount, go down 60 meters, find the stones and bring them up to see if they are manmade or not," he said.  "It's my personal opinion that they are."

Accounts of the discovery were published in Europe earlier this spring, and Dr. Aksyonov says they brought amused smiles from oceanographer colleagues in Den mark.

"I asked them, 'Did any of you believe this?'  They said 'No,' and they said they laughed a lot."

As he describes the pictures, of a total of eight, only two are really interesting.

'Typical Wall From Antiquity'

"One of them shows eight stones - four square ones and four rounded ones in a line about three and a half or four feet long," he said.  "Specialists who've looked at it say it's a typical wall from antiquity.  The second photo shows three equally spaced stones at the left-hand edge, and it appears to be part of a staircase."

Dr. Akysonov just returned from an unrelated oceanographic cruise in his research ship, the Vityaz.

"Heinrich Schliemann, the great 19th-century German archeologist, found the ruins of Troy by studying the poetry of Homer very attentively," he said.  Mr. Schliemann, too, got a skeptical reaction at first.

Atlantis was described in two of his dialogues, the Timaeus and the Critias.  "Plato says it was located in the Atlantic Ocean and on an island and that tribes living on it took part in wars in southern Europe and in North Africa before one day the island sank between walls of water," Dr. Aksyonov said.  "I believe that the objects in the pictures once stood on the surface too, though specialists say it's difficult to believe the seamount could have sunk so far," he said.

Cities Lisbon Earthquake

He says that the catastrophc earthquake in Lisbon in 1755 caused a tidal wave and a flood that left part of the city forever beneath the sea.  Something similar, he surmises, may have happened to an island of which the Ampere Seamount would be the submarine remnant.

The legends around Atlantis have been nourished over the centuries.  It has been variously located in America, Scandinavia, the Middle East and the Canary Islands, 500 miles south of the Ampere Seamount.

"The ocean is full of mysteries," Dr. Aksyonov says.  "And our investigations are the beginning of our understanding."

Published May 21, 1979
Copyright the New York Times

[Boreas]

If Atlantis had existed and she had ships as large as Triremes in her harbours, then she had to exist at a time when large ships were in existence.  Plato said goods were brought to her from all other countries.  Therefore all the other countries had to have had ships as large as Triremes also.  Therefore, all the other countries she supposedly traded with, should have some mention of trading with Atlantis, or some mention of Atlantis itself, since it was supposedly so impressive a place, but there is nothing in any histories that mention her.  If they existed, did they live in a vaccuum? 

During the time when 90% of the northern lands was under ice, i.e. during ice-time, the atlanteans lived in a biotic refugia, no doubt.

Plato said 9000 years before Solon is when Atlantis sunk.  9000 years before Solon, no one had ships.  They were hunter/gatherers.

NO ONE had ships...?!
May you prove that?

Even if Atlantis existed and she was so far advanced beyond the rest of the world that was still in an ice age, who would she have traded with?  WHAT would she have traded?  She had everything already according to Plato, and I'm sure the people who were following the herds for their dinner didn't have anything to offer a people who already had everything.

No you're playing the tricky accuser, the ignorant judge and the arrogant executor all-in-one. Do you think that gets us anywhere near common sense, reason, logic and truth...?

[Qoais]

What - you think those are trick questions?  Why?  Because you can't answer them, can you?

During the time when 90% of the northern lands was under ice, i.e. during ice-time, the atlanteans lived in a biotic refugia, no doubt.

Oh yeah, no doubt. 

NO ONE had ships...?!
May you prove that?

May I?  What - I need permission to prove it?

Boreas, I researched the history of shipbuilding.  What the hell else would we have to go on, but the knowledge that has been gleaned over the years by scholars who have studied these subjects?  Are you psychic or something or maybe you can astral travel into the past and tell us just exactly when ships started to be manufactured.  No - because if you were, you could just astral travel to the past and tell us all about Atlantis.   

I am not playing anything.  I am not a skeptic with an attitude.  I've been in this forum almost since it's conception and I've posted the stuff I've read or studied or researched so y'all could follow along, as well as my thoughts at different stages of the journey.   If the information given doesn't suit you, there's nothing I can do about it.  If you don't want to accept what the scientists and scholars have spent a lifetime studying, that's your choice.  I asked before, where do we get our information about the world around us?  From the scientists and scholars who study it of course.  From the studying and research I've done, I've found that the factual information doesn't fit Plato's story.  If you have studied the same information, but don't come to the same conclusion, then it would be interesting to know where the difference lays.  If you have information more conclusive than what I've been studying so far, I'd appreciate a link. 

I'm not saying there aren't cover ups, I'm not saying science won't find new discoveries, I'm not saying there aren't submerged cities, I'm not saying that even folks who don't have PhD's won't find fantastic discoveries that science will then have to verify. 

All I'm saying, is, do the research.  As far as the available information goes, regarding the development of different technologies, Plato's story is not true. 

[Boreas]

What - you think those are trick questions?  Why?  Because you can't answer them, can you?

During the time when 90% of the northern lands was under ice, i.e. during ice-time, the atlanteans lived in a biotic refugia, no doubt.

Oh yeah, no doubt. 

If that's an answer your're obviously stuck within a specific frame-set of anticipation. Thats whats signify fundamentalism.

NO ONE had ships...?!
May you prove that?

May I?  What - I need permission to prove it?

There's no special certificate for you in this debate, as in freeing you to substante your claims. As far as I can see you haven't been asked permission to anything, at least not by me. Moreover, I observe that you (again) refrain to relate to my questions and scientific points. You rather just antagonize them and, recently, exceed to
outrigth ridicule.

Well, guess who's the phoney...

Boreas, I researched the history of shipbuilding.  What the hell else would we have to go on, but the knowledge that has been gleaned over the years by scholars who have studied these subjects?  Are you psychic or something or maybe you can astral travel into the past and tell us just exactly when ships started to be manufactured.  No - because if you were, you could just astral travel to the past and tell us all about Atlantis.   

I am not playing anything.  I am not a skeptic with an attitude.  I've been in this forum almost since it's conception and I've posted the stuff I've read or studied or researched so y'all could follow along, as well as my thoughts at different stages of the journey.   If the information given doesn't suit you, there's nothing I can do about it.  If you don't want to accept what the scientists and scholars have spent a lifetime studying, that's your choice.  I asked before, where do we get our information about the world around us?  From the scientists and scholars who study it of course.  From the studying and research I've done, I've found that the factual information doesn't fit Plato's story.  If you have studied the same information, but don't come to the same conclusion, then it would be interesting to know where the difference lays.  If you have information more conclusive than what I've been studying so far, I'd appreciate a link. 

I'm not saying there aren't cover ups, I'm not saying science won't find new discoveries, I'm not saying there aren't submerged cities, I'm not saying that even folks who don't have PhD's won't find fantastic discoveries that science will then have to verify. 

All I'm saying, is, do the research.  As far as the available information goes, regarding the development of different technologies, Plato's story is not true. 

You have obviously not been doing the adequate research in this respect. Thus you don't have a clue to when people started to voyage the oceans, not to speak of the coastlines.

Finally, your mere opinion about Plato seems to be growing into a mantra. That doesnt express science sweethart, what you express is actually a peculiar kind of belief. We're all free to believe what we want - so I can only wish you well and hope that your faith will bring you happiness.

  

[CONDOR]

Message to nobody

What a surprise it will be
you and me being able to see
An arrow through the times far behind
is it a truer or a faker grind?

How relentless are we
that yet do not forsee,
the tremendous shiverings
mankind was from wihtin

And we act as ignominiously
as faint hearten people.
Lest we haste will the unknown truth
be known and the cave light be throned.
 
No dogma nor magic trick are needed
when true science and physics conceded
that in true spirit we speak 
of, indeed, one great planetary "tweak".

And their descendants, as you, thought
by the mighty intelligence given
that all sorted out it was
when really misleading hen.

Atlantis is, Atlantis was, Atlantis will be
something we will never quite really understand,
and even when we do, look at it more bluntly,
we do not quite follow their reason

It should be great news but instead is just drag,
Boredom and defiance contribute for the stack
Why, oh why, did i ever try to postpone
what has already been done

///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

Qoais, Atlantis existed because there is something saying so, i am almost sure you know what the heck it is but i am not going to help you here if you don't or do not want to acknowledge it. Are you aware of tectonics movements possibilities when you think continental plates moving around?

Atlantis performed, according to Plato, a tectonic movement, did you study anything related to tectonics? Did it cross your mind that it could have been a tectonic movement? What do you have to say about it? please, i really would like to see an enlightened mind escape this jab

Good line of thinking by the way!

[Qoais]

Condor - It seems that certain people think scientists are just a bunch of "dogma-driven fundamentalists".  So now, you want me to study plate tectonics (which I have already done.  This has been discussed in threads in this forum).  In other words, I'm not supposed to accept what scientists say when they say there is no indication of a submerged island on the floor of the Atlantic, but I'm supposed to accept what they say regarding plate tectonics, and then I'm supposed to use that theory to to prove what the other theory has said, is wrong.

Which of these dogma driven fundamentalists are you choosing to believe?  Ain't it grand, that we can just pick and choose which bits of science we're going to take as fact, and then call the others names because what they've stated doesn't suit our favorite theme or uphold the latest of fringe authors and what they SAY is fact. 

People tell me I need to have an open mind.  I say I do have an open mind.  Now I say, the people who believe in what the fringe authors say, need to have an open mind as well, and accept that the scientists just might know a bit more about their subject than a fringe author does.

I love fringe authors.  They write books that stir the imagination.  However, you have to know that even if Atlantis existed and someone locates her, guess what?  It will still have to be verified by--------who?  Oh yeah, those scientists, those dogma driven fundamentalist dudes!!  Imagine that!!

[CONDOR]

Qoais, What is the most important aspect of the Atlantis story? The disappearance of a large island that once existed, but not anymore, right? (i hope you agree with me). The disappearance of a palpable crust "chunk" is completely explained by the tectonic logic and physics. A tectonic occurrence must have happened when Atlantis allegedly sunk. Science does not investigate much further than the continental margins, so the tectonic dynamics of the MAR and the rest of the oceanic floor is not well studied nor understood.  Plato could be revealing something like a huge tectonic "maneuver" on the part of Atlantis that earth sciences scholars and even physics ignore altogether.

I'm not supposed to accept what scientists say when they say there is no indication of a submerged island on the floor of the Atlantic

Please lets not submerge Atlantis, Plato did not say so. It is important not to assume anything of the kind when investigating a missing landmass. What we know for sure is that the island disappeared, not how it disappeared!

[Boreas]

Please lets not submerge Atlantis, Plato did not say so. It is important not to assume anything of the kind when investigating a missing landmass. What we know for sure is that the island disappeared, not how it disappeared!

Qoais obviously want to discuss her experience with science and science-fiction, rather than facts and the resulting logic of causes and conseqences.

What Plato contests is that Altantis was under water - NOT that it disappeared, as in "forever". Plato's text basically tells that it "went under water" - as in "sunk". That may - in reality - mean that it was submerged by rising water. It may also imply that it was both submerged AND that it sunk. (Checked the original texts?)

Moreover it is important to understand that what may have sunk may have reappeared, due to the tectonic phenomenon called elevation. What we do know - from modern science - is that;

1. At the end of ice-time there were numbers of landmasses that were overran by ice. Ice is also water.
2. As the giantic ice-caps slided over these lands they were also pressed under ocean-level. So they 'sunk'.
3. As the giantic amounts of ice, pluss amounts of ice-dammed melt-water, reached the ocean the oean-level rose.
4. As the giantic ice-globes disappeared from the various lands these areas would start to rise - to level out the tectonic pressure created by the (gone) ice.

Consequently we may look for a large land-area - at the size of Egypt and Libya - that were;

1. Overran/sunk
2. Later have risen from the ocean.
3. Still dwells under ocean-level

You may find that there have been lands - that borders the Atlantic Ocean - that actually fullfills both point 1 and 2. Moreover they have local myths that corroborate with the old Greek/Egyptian legend of Plato, as well as recent facts discovered by the objective minds of our natural sciences. Some more at;

http://tribesofatlantis.freeforum.ca/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=56&p=107#p107

[Boreas]

Double posting. Sorry.   

[Mario Dantas]

Boreas, i find your view very interesting and true in the sense that all you have spoken is to be true, nevertheless, i must say that it is despicable regarding the enormity of the event. For an island of such proportions to have "disappeared" in a 24h period is, within our scale, a very disturbing phenomena to have taken place. One has to assign the probability to a set of outcomes that embody the event itself. Ice influence and probable crustal rebounds, as you stated:

Moreover it is important to understand that what may have sunk may have reappeared, due to the tectonic phenomenon called elevation. What we do know - from modern science - is that;

1. At the end of ice-time there were numbers of landmasses that were overran by ice. Ice is also water.
2. As the giantic ice-caps slided over these lands they were also pressed under ocean-level. So they 'sunk'.
3. As the giantic amounts of ice, pluss amounts of ice-dammed melt-water, reached the ocean the oean-level rose.
4. As the giantic ice-globes disappeared from the various lands these areas would start to rise - to level out the tectonic pressure created by the (gone) ice.

could have been true, but are non important if you consider intervening elements such as the crust and ice thickness and overall mass to be conclusive.  It is clear that ice was a minor tectonic factor, its importance as a real element existing during Atlantis demise is really the acceleration of the  hardening of molten crust. On the other hand, for large mountains to have sunk into the depths of the sea would require considerable higher sea level rises than what is assumed (Holocene max. 140m).

Not all the ice in the world would alter the fact that in front of the pillars of Hercules there is a very important tectonic element, the Azores triple junction, a point where the whole American, Eurasian, and African plates meet, in a divergent motion. Could something have been in the middle? Could Plato have told the truth? An important location in front of the straits of Gibraltar, told by Plato, and the existence of a triple continental junction at the same place, in the center of the world.

[Mario Dantas]

http://www.google.com/images?q=atlantis+greenland+mario+dantas&um=1&hl=en&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&tbs=isch:1&ei=7xc3TMeoG4vaOLemiLkM&sa=N&start=0&ndsp=20