Atlantis Online
November 26, 2020, 06:53:09 pm
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Satellite images 'show Atlantis'
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/3766863.stm
 
  Home Help Arcade Gallery Links Staff List Calendar Login Register  

Talk:Atlantis


Pages: 1 2 3 [4] 5   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Talk:Atlantis  (Read 348 times)
Angels & Demons
Sr. Member
****
Posts: 71



« Reply #45 on: June 09, 2010, 01:44:17 am »

Material with "citation needed" tags

There are several {{fact}} tags in the article that have been present for some weeks. No one's stepped up to provide citations. If no one does so within the next few days, I propose to remove the tagged material. Any objections? --Akhilleus (talk) 20:05, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

    I suggest that instead of completely deleting the tagged material, comment it out with HTML comment symbols, <!-- like this -->. Because, probably most of that information is informative and completely true, and another editor may come along with references. Or copy the removed material to the talk page here. Or both, even. -kotra 06:16, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
Report Spam   Logged
Angels & Demons
Sr. Member
****
Posts: 71



« Reply #46 on: June 09, 2010, 01:44:47 am »

        Kotra, I've done some research in this area and I highly doubt the information is correct. There are plenty of Atlantis enthusiasts out there who will seize on anything that talks about islands in the west and claim that it's about Atlantis. However, I do agree that the information should be saved, and when I remove it, I will put it on the talk page so that someone else can provide proper references, if they in fact exist. --Akhilleus (talk) 06:42, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

            I only read some of the tagged material, so there might be things I missed that I'd agree are totally wrong. And I understand that there are tons of Atlantis enthusiasts, with dozens if not hundreds of baseless theories about Atlantis. One can't help noticing that after watching this article for a few months. Regardless, I still think some of the tagged material probably happens to be correct, though I wouldn't know which material specifically. Anyways, I'm glad you'll be putting the removed material on the talk page. We seem to agree on that, which is all that really matters anyways. -kotra 13:29, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Report Spam   Logged
Angels & Demons
Sr. Member
****
Posts: 71



« Reply #47 on: June 09, 2010, 01:45:28 am »

Removed material from "other ancient accounts" section

As promised, here is material removed from the "other ancient accounts" section, either because it is badly sourced, not about Atlantis, or both.

   1. Claudius Aelianus cites Theopompus, knowing of the existence of the huge island out in the Atlantic as a continuing tradition among the Phoenicians or Carthaginians of Cádiz.
   2. A fragmentary work of Theophrastus of Lesbos, from the 4th century BC, speaks of the colonies of Atlantis in the sea.
   3. Pliny the Elder recorded that this land was 12,000 km distant (by modern measurement) from Cádiz, and Uba, a Numidian talks of an enormous island outside the Pillars of Hercules. He describes it as having a climate that is very mild; fruits and vegetables grow ripe throughout the year. There are huge mountains covered with large forests, and wide, irrigable plains with navigable rivers. The Periplus of Scylax of Caryanda, from the 4th century BC, gives a similar account.
   4. The historian Diodorus Siculus, writing in the 1st century AD, recorded that the Atlanteans did not know the fruits of Ceres.
   5. (after the Ammianus Marcellinus paragraph currently in the article) Marcellinus further records that the intelligentsia of Alexandria considered the destruction of Atlantis a historical fact and described a class of earthquakes that suddenly, by a violent motion, opened up huge mouths and so swallowed up portions of the earth, as once in the Atlantic Ocean a large island was swallowed up.
   6. Perhaps the Byzantine friar Cosmas Indicopleustes understood Plato better than the ancient and modern "Aristotelians," says Merezhkovsky. In his Topographia Christiana Cosmas included a chart of the (flat) world: it showed an inner continent, a compact mainland surrounded by sea, and this was surrounded by an outer ring-shaped continent, with the inscription, "The earth beyond the Ocean, where men lived before the Flood."

For ancient prose authors, citations will usually take the form (book.paragraph), so for instance the citation Herodotus 8.171 will direct us to Book 8, paragraph 171 of the Histories. Some of the authors named here (Theophrastus, Scylax) are fragmentary, so citation will be more complex, but we need some specific indication of where to find the information cited--otherwise it is impossible to verify what the article is saying. --Akhilleus (talk) 03:31, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
Report Spam   Logged
Angels & Demons
Sr. Member
****
Posts: 71



« Reply #48 on: June 09, 2010, 01:46:08 am »

Tinkering with 'Modern Interest' Section

I would like to propose a slight clarification of a line in this section. I understand that brevity makes for easier reading. And due to the apparently sparse and fragmented accounts of 'Atlantis' i would like to bolster this article with the reasonable sources I have found. I suppose the sources could be currently subsumed under Atlantean 'Folklore' or 'Legend'; but there are academics who are genuinely interested in exploring 'Lost Civilisations' (Graham Hancock, Schwaller de Lubicz, John Anthony West).

As it stands, the line reads: "Famed psychic Edgar Cayce gave its geographical location as the Caribbean, and proposed that Atlantis was an ancient, now-submerged, highly-evolved civilization which had ships and aircraft powered by a mysterious form of energy crystal."... All i would like to do is explain what Cayce actually said this 'mysterious form of energy crystal' was. The change would read thus: "... evolved civilization whcih had ships and aircraft powered by a mysterious form of crystal energy. One insight into Cayce's claims refers to the creation of the Tuaoi stone, a crystal 'power station' that was 'technologically... used to generate electricity, heat, and power transmitted to motor vehicles in the manner of remote control.(pg 191, Dan Campbell, Edgar Cayce On the Power of Colours, Stones, and Crystals). Furthermore, Cayce's readings sugggest "...errant manipulation of [the Tuaoi stone's energies]... turned and rent the earth, producing volcanic upheavals that tore the land apart and separated it into five islands." This issue of Cayce and Atlantis is complex and derserves further attention, if only listed under a subheading entitled 'Cayce and Atlantis'. Maybe there could be a another subheading labelled 'The Fanatacism of the ARE'. Of which I am not a member.
Report Spam   Logged
Angels & Demons
Sr. Member
****
Posts: 71



« Reply #49 on: June 09, 2010, 01:49:57 am »

I suppose providing two references in such a short space from the same source does not show broad reading and scholarship about the nature of Cayce's readings on Atlantis. Numerous Cayce writers have noted Cayce's talk about the break-up of Atlantis theory. Give me time, i will come up with the references. It all hinges on belief in the Cayce's healing powers and spiritual insight. The references to places that ARE are investigating, like Bimini(in the Caribbean), and the Sphinx on Giza Plateau. It just seems to there is a wealth of information that could be referenced at least in the Atlantis article. It need not be sparse. And in the spirit of wiki balanced article entries, I hope this will stir some discussion.

Initially will add some book references and such as links and notes. Tentative entries. I'm sure there is a whole realm of 'New Age' links and discussions that could be linked or explored. It just takes time to find what is useful as historical interest, alternative historical interest, popular cultural interest, and so on...
Report Spam   Logged
Angels & Demons
Sr. Member
****
Posts: 71



« Reply #50 on: June 09, 2010, 01:51:34 am »

Also, William James Sidis wrote a book on Atlantis (now lost). Some people are trying to piece together his manuscripts. What i hope is that wikipedia interest may stimulate a recovery of that text in particular. Who knows? And so I fan the fire.Drakonicon 21:22, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Also curious as to why the line about Aleister Crowley is dropped in at the end of the 'National And Socialist Activities' subheading? Maybe that line could be moved down to 'Recent Times'; because it appears, in one sense, that Crowley was associated with the Nazi interests?? What do you think?Drakonicon 21:37, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

    I agree that the section could use expansion, but I'm not sure that we need to give a detailed explanation of Cayce's theories, especially about these mythical energy crystals. After all, Bacon and Donelly get only a few sentences, and they are probably more important than Cayce for this article. At any rate, I would hardly describe Graham Hancock, R. A. Schwaller de Lubicz, and John Anthony West as "academics". In a generous mood, I might call them "independent scholars"; but I would usually be less kind. Although I do appreciate that West claims to be "a writer, scholar and Pythagorean"; I hope he doesn't eat beans! --Akhilleus (talk) 21:58, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
Report Spam   Logged
Angels & Demons
Sr. Member
****
Posts: 71



« Reply #51 on: June 09, 2010, 01:55:03 am »

Thankyou so much, Akhilleus! for considering what i proposed above with great discernment. I can appreciate that Hancock, and Schwaller de Lubicz are independent scholars ( I wouldn't call them pseudoscientists: In my mind, good science depends on method, and reasonable explanation of supporting evidence to the scientific claim). Colin Wilson cites (pp4-5, From Atlantis to the Sphinx) a newspaper article from the Los Angeles Times of 26th October 1991 entitled Egypt Serves Up New Twist To Mystery of the Sphinx. The article indicates that geologists John Anthony West and Robert Schoch presented their geological results at the Geological Society of America Society, indicating that the Sphinx had suffered severe water erosion (not simply sand and wind) and was much older (by a millenia) than previously thought (about 5000-7000 years old). Anyway the point is, West (at least), is an example of a scholar (he presented an important geological paper at a conference for peer review) whose work indicates that the archaeological record regarding the Sphinx maybe be inaccurate, further thus indicating that advanced sculpting adn achetectural technologies were developed much earlier on the Giza Plateau than previously thought.
Report Spam   Logged
Angels & Demons
Sr. Member
****
Posts: 71



« Reply #52 on: June 09, 2010, 01:55:16 am »

        In which case I dont believe that information presented on Bacon, or Donnelly is more or less important than information obtained from the Edgar Cayce readings. The difference is simply that Bacon and Donnelly were investigative scholars, while Cayce "...practised medical diagnosis by clairvoyance for forty-three years. He left stenographic reports of 30 000 of these diagnoses to the Association for Research and Enlightenment, Inc., along with hundreds of complete case reports containing affidavits by the patients and reports by physicians. There are hundreds of people throughout the United States who will testify [as of 1945], at the drop of a hat, to the accuracy of his diagnoses and the efficacy of his suggestions for treatment."(pg 5 There Is A River, (1945), by Thomas Sugrue).

        I believe that the sticking point about using the Cayce readings as a valuable source of knowledge regarding Atlantis, is whether one can accept that Cayce's suggested medical diagnoses were so thoroughly successful for so many people; and, by virtue of his diagnostic successes, that the physical, spiritual, and psychological dimensions of treatment that Cayce offered individual patients in what have come to be called his 'Life' readings, contains valuable insight into the culture, technologies, historical time-frames, and location of Atlantis. What intrigues me about this whole article on Atlantis is that it starts with Plato's famously brief references to Atlantis, that Plato is actually passing on a legend about a place that does not exist in his time. In this sense, I feel that that the Cayce reading contain that could be considered as folklorist as anything Plato has passed on from antiquity.

Report Spam   Logged
Angels & Demons
Sr. Member
****
Posts: 71



« Reply #53 on: June 09, 2010, 01:55:37 am »

        I hope this helps clarify my belief that the Cayce readings are a vaulable source of knowledge regarding Atlantis. Maybe a subheading 'Speculation about Atlantis' might include some brief highlights about the culture, technologies, and 'religious beleifs' outlined by Cayce scholars? I know there are a lot of contentious ideas here. That's why I'm discussing them here instead of simply editing the Article with my one-sided content. Please advise. Drakonicon 15:24, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

    Cayce's medical career is a textbook example of pseudoscience. Detailed coverage of his Atlantis theories doesn't belong here, although it may at Edgar Cayce. Bacon and Donelly are more notable than Cayce, Wilson, et al. because Bacon was one of the first to write about Atlantis in the modern era, and Donelly had a lot to do with making the subject popular. --Akhilleus (talk) 16:53, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

        While I certainly do not agree that Cayce is a textbook example of pseudoscience, I agree that detailed coverage of his Atlantis theories dont belong here. Good point about Bacon and Donnelly. I suppose the continuing popular interest in Cayce's many and varied documented readings serve to stimulate modern interest about Atlantis in whole new ways; including the continuing archaeological explorations in Bimini. Cayce's abilities have been given many names. 'Famed psychic' is one of them; yet I feel it poorly represents his work. I suppose some kind of handle needs to ben given to indicate how and why he came about the Atlantis information he is famous for. How about 'Medical Clairvoyant' as Gina Cerminara has referred to him? or Because it was within this context that he drew on information about Atlantis. Just trying to clarify the pseudoscience and new age references in this article.

Report Spam   Logged
Angels & Demons
Sr. Member
****
Posts: 71



« Reply #54 on: June 09, 2010, 01:55:56 am »

        I have performed a small tidying edit, in order to be more succinct with the timeline surrounding Donnelly and the rise of New Age writers. However, the second paragraph in this section about Mesoamerican scholars might also be subsumed under the info on New Age writers? The second paragraph's intro does now conflict with the fourth paragraph's intro. Maybe just put back "Around this time..." for the New Age writers section?
        Also performed a another edit showing that the Cayce readings initially mentioned Atlantis in 1923, and had more specific content that he 'read' at a later date (geographical locations). Thirdly, I added the words "...and is still being explored today.... I think the article represents at least one modern interest in the Bimini Road that is ongoing. Info on Dr. Greg Little, Bimini, etc.. is here["http://www.coasttocoastam.com/guests/75.html Find him here] Should the outro to this paragraph stay?

        Thanks for your insights Akhilleus, its helping me hone my detective work and presentation skills. I'll get off the Cayce bandwagon for awhile and look for Pliny's reference to Atlantis in his Natural History. In a copy of the book if I can get my hands on one. Hopefully he actually uses the word Atlantis. If not, I understand that vague refences to big islands in ancient times outside the Pillars of Hercules, dont really belong hereDrakonicon 19:25, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

Report Spam   Logged
Angels & Demons
Sr. Member
****
Posts: 71



« Reply #55 on: June 09, 2010, 01:56:43 am »

Removed material from "Modern interest" section

I removed this sentence, because it makes no sense:

    However, several of the researchers later repudiated those claims even there has been an absence of intercalation of solar calendar to lunar calendar or vise versa. Since the Mayan used a lunar calender, the date can possiblly be adjusted to the same time, the Greco-Roman era.

If someone else understands what's going on here, please rewrite and put it back in. --Akhilleus (talk) 17:15, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
Report Spam   Logged
Angels & Demons
Sr. Member
****
Posts: 71



« Reply #56 on: June 09, 2010, 01:57:04 am »

Found some good sources that you people could look at regarding Atlantis

Sacred Texts.com - Atlantis might offer some neutral point of view insight into this article. You people now even have a complete (at least fragmented copy of Plato's writings on Atlantis - congratulations people! Keep up the good work, and I'll do the finding for you people, since I am into this esoteric, mysterious, enigmatic stuff called mythology. --Lord X 00:25, 20 June 2006 (UTC)User:Xinyu

Ooooh, and look Paranormals: Atlantis also have some good information - pick and choose ladies and gentlemen, more respectively - WIKIPEDIANS! --Lord X 00:27, 20 June 2006 (UTC)User:Xinyu

    Good find, Xinyu! The sacred texts has some good fiction works that could be referenced.Drakonicon 06:47, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

No problem. --Lord X 20:19, 22 June 2006 (UTC)User:Xinyu

        Look, if you Wikipedians want any sources for this article, or anything else that I may be able to help you with, just message me or something. Thanks. --Lord X 19:00, 23 June 2006 (UTC)User:Xinyu

Report Spam   Logged
Angels & Demons
Sr. Member
****
Posts: 71



« Reply #57 on: June 09, 2010, 01:57:37 am »

divers

"divers" is an older spelling of "diverse". Since it occurs in a direct quote, the older spelling should be retained. --Akhilleus (talk) 17:08, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

    I thought the old spelling might befar more applicable; anyway, i just wanted to know more about the use of the word 'divers'. I have seen it used to describe obscure 'medicinal' arts in c.1600 and c.1700 texts, and appeared to refer to an heretical philosophy of some ancient sort. I understand it meaning 'diverse', but does that word mean 'multiplicitoous', or 'diverting from the mains'? Help! Smiley Drakonicon 20:39, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

The quote is: "were the inhabitants and rulers of divers islands in the open sea." In this context, "divers" simply means "many" or "various". There are plenty of online dictionaries, if you need more detail. If you find the quote confusing, there are also many online translations of Plato, and there should be at least one that uses more modern diction. --Akhilleus (talk) 21:31, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

        Very interesting miracle engineering items from ancient atlantis are being ruined by istanbul minucipalities ignorant metro construction under bosphorus between asia and europe continent. If you change name of istanbul to istantal that means atlantis. This city was completely covered by the blacksea in history and marmara sea aroused over atlantis. Please Delete these lines afer reading because this is not its place. [(alpha)]::

Report Spam   Logged
Angels & Demons
Sr. Member
****
Posts: 71



« Reply #58 on: June 09, 2010, 02:01:06 am »

Recent times section

Considering that the 'continental drift' argument states that 'most "Lost Continent" theories of Atlantis were shown to be impossible...'... and Wikipedia seems to indicates that the Continental Drift Theory has been superceded by Plate tectonics (see especially the argument in the History and impact section of the Plate tectonics article)... I believe the information presentation, in this short section on Atlantis, should be reviewed.
Report Spam   Logged
Angels & Demons
Sr. Member
****
Posts: 71



« Reply #59 on: June 09, 2010, 02:01:20 am »

Jesus!

Jesus Christ, this article is a mess! Your one true god is David P. A. Hunter, esq. III Talk to me! 22:36, 9 July 2006 (UTC)
Report Spam   Logged
Pages: 1 2 3 [4] 5   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by EzPortal
Bookmark this site! | Upgrade This Forum
SMF For Free - Create your own Forum
Powered by SMF | SMF © 2016, Simple Machines
Privacy Policy