Message #187854

[Lisa Wolfe]

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- + New SimianNation I'm a Fan of SimianNation I'm a fan of this user 126 fans permalink
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Truth!
    Reply    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:21 AM on 11/13/2009
- + schaffermommy I'm a Fan of schaffermommy I'm a fan of this user 2 fans permalink

this was probably the longest piece i've read on hp, interesting and very worth it. so thank you.
    Reply    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:34 PM on 11/12/2009
- + kassandrasduplex I'm a Fan of kassandrasduplex I'm a fan of this user 52 fans permalink

My uncle served in the 503rd Parachute Regimental Combat Team (the very first American boots to step onto Corregidor Phillipines allowing MacArthur's "triumphant" and safe return). He seved in Occupation Japan immediately upon surrender. My uncle would have been one of the casualties had the Japanese NOT surrendered, as their military executive leadership was planning had the United States NOT dropped the bombs. For those who wear the hair shirt of American Guilt I can tell you this, the USS Panay, the R. ape of Nanking, Pearl Harbor, the Bataan D. eath March, Unit 731, conventional and biological air attacks against the Continental United States by Japan brought all H.ell on them and their lack of surrender brought them Hiroshima and Nagasaki's bombs. And I am glad for the return of my uncle to my family.
    Reply    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:33 PM on 11/12/2009
- + wardropper I'm a Fan of wardropper I'm a fan of this user permalink

Easy to talk about the bombs stopping the war when it isn't you or your family who get to die.
The essence of compassion is that you identify with the innocent victim.
Military men are apparently trained to switch this faculty off at will, but that has the same effect as trying to switch off your digestive system - sooner or later the truth will out, or you die in an awful explosion.
Want to leave the world a better place than you found it?
Then discourage military thinking.
It is severely limited in its scope, despite the desire of our generals to control everything in sight - a desire fostered by arrogance and ignorance.
    Reply    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:19 PM on 11/12/2009
- + Pearlswan I'm a Fan of Pearlswan I'm a fan of this user 33 fans permalink
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I researched these bombings in depth myself in 2003 for a college term paper. What I was able to discover from my research was that, without a doubt, the bombs were dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki for political reasons, not strategic ones. There is no debate about the intent once the facts are investigated. We had already killed 100,000 people in the bombing of Tokyo so we did not need to destroy Nagasaki and Hiroshima except to let the Soviets know we had a working A-bomb. This is the very reason that Eisenhower warned us about the military-industrial complex and its dangers to peaceful society. Eisenhower knew the truth about why we built and dropped these bombs on innocent civilians in Japan. And, he told us the truth of it without all the facts and details to support it because he was bound by secrecy himself. His warning was enough if anyone had listened to it then but, no one did. That is why nuclear proliferation still continues today, imho.
    Reply    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 08:50 PM on 11/12/2009
- + legalclubs I'm a Fan of legalclubs I'm a fan of this user 10 fans permalink

I disagree. You fail to recognize the belief system held by the Japanese at the time, especially that surrender wasn't an option. In fact, your point that we had already killed 100,000 cuts against your point as even though we were clearly winning the war and were able to attack Japan at will they still wouldn't surrender and insisted on fighting to the last man.

As such, only an invasion of Japan could of ended the war, an invasion which was anticipated to cost many mutliple times the deaths which were incurred during the atomic bombings, many of which would be Americans. So droping the atomic bomb arguably saved lives overall and clearly saved 10s of thousands if not 100s of thousands of american lives.
    Reply    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:10 PM on 11/12/2009
- + Enliberate I'm a Fan of Enliberate I'm a fan of this user 10 fans permalink

My friend, widen your perspective on this one. A rationalization based on a hypothetical is not a reason.
    Reply    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:23 PM on 11/12/2009
- + exsongbird I'm a Fan of exsongbird I'm a fan of this user permalink

My dad is a WW2 marine vet. He survived Guadalcanal, Tarawa, Saipan, and Okinawa, all before he turned 21 years of age. He has two Purple Hearts. His outfit was gearing up for the invasion of Japan. Then, they were told that the U.S. had dropped a new kind of bomb, and Japan was surrendering. The Marines made a comment about finding "tokyo rose" and where they would like to put one concerning her. Then, they celebrated knowing they survived the war.
The plans for D-Day for Japan never mentioned my dads outfit after D+4, They would have had so many killed, and wounded, they would have no longer been an operational division. The chances for my dad to have survived the invasion of Japan were about 0%. The Japanese would have fought to the death, as that was the code they lived by. The code of Bushido.
The reason I am here today is because Harry Truman had the balls to drop the bombs, and save American lives. The death toll for the invasion of Japan would have been far more than the toll for the two atomic bombs. It was estimated there would have been over a million casualties, Japanese, and American. Truman stopped the war with the bombs.
I say God bless Harry Truman!!!
    Reply    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 07:35 PM on 11/12/2009
- + PigsOnSoma I'm a Fan of PigsOnSoma I'm a fan of this user 7 fans permalink

What governments and soldiers do to on another is one thing - but to wipe out civilians without any possibility of survival is a war crime. How would you have felt if the Japanese had had the bomb first and wiped out your not only your entire family - generations of them - but everyone you ever knew? And in the process destroyed your home so that it would never be habitable for you or anyone else for your lifetime and beyond?

And maybe the death toll would have been greater - but until our leaders start behaving like people rather that criminals who feel they have the right to inflict murder and mayhem on populations - using weapons that destroy entire populations and environments should be considered a war crime.
    Reply    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 07:54 PM on 11/12/2009
- + legalclubs I'm a Fan of legalclubs I'm a fan of this user 10 fans permalink

War is hell and it is literally fought to the death. Japan was already wiping out entire civilian towns in China...nobody was left alive. They would of done the same in the U.S. if they had one the war...just look at their brutal record, especially in the Philipines and in China. Unfortunately you reap what you sow in war and they got theirs.

Also, your comment that the atomic bomb made H and S would not be habitable in the lifetime of the occupants and beyond is simply false. It is now and has been inhabited for a very long time. What...did you think Obama was planning on visiting someplace that had a radioactive threat?
    Reply    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:24 PM on 11/12/2009
- + Pearlswan I'm a Fan of Pearlswan I'm a fan of this user 33 fans permalink
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That was the standard explanation at the time they dropped the bombs--to save the US soldiers who would have invaded Japan to win the war. How else would they have gotten the American people to accept it, really? However, it is not true. Japan had already been defeated when the bombs fell.
    Reply    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:04 PM on 11/12/2009
- + kassandrasduplex I'm a Fan of kassandrasduplex I'm a fan of this user 52 fans permalink

My uncle came home to our family because of those same bombs. And we were thankful. He served in Corregidor and Okinawa. He never talked much about his experiences.
    Reply    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:38 PM on 11/12/2009
- + Stayalert I'm a Fan of Stayalert I'm a fan of this user permalink

I went to Hiroshima and Nagasaki in 1976. Visiting the museums is a major change in my life in looking at what our governments do to its citizens. What our elected/"selected" officials do with impunity.Walking among the citizens of Japan and all of us viewing the cases of people, things, and photos is devastating and the SOUND on that one particular floor is eerily SILENT. Not even footsteps you barely hear.

Visiting these cities, watching the PBS specials regarding the years since the bombings and listening to the citizens of those cities in Japan, and also visiting Auschwitz makes you realize the media and our powers that be/PTB are all crooks and do not do anything for the betterment of mankind.

We are all expendable. As the CEO of my corp calls us at board meetings, " Units of Attrition". PEOPLE, not Units.
    Reply    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 06:58 PM on 11/12/2009
- + PigsOnSoma I'm a Fan of PigsOnSoma I'm a fan of this user 7 fans permalink

Thank you.
    Reply    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 07:58 PM on 11/12/2009
- + Hallucinocynic I'm a Fan of Hallucinocynic I'm a fan of this user 60 fans permalink

Visited the memorial at Hiroshima in 1970 when I was on R&R in Japan. One of the eeriest and impactful moments in my life. The A Bomb Dome's skeletal remains aren't that meaningful until the visitor walks through the exhibits in the museum where photographs place the building amid the utter destruction.

What disturbs me the most are hawkish politicians and citizens who have NO understanding of the utter irreversibility of war; people who haven't smelled burnt flesh or watched people die. People like Dick Cheney are the most heinous proponents of man's inhumanity to man.
    Reply    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 08:09 PM on 11/12/2009
- + legalclubs I'm a Fan of legalclubs I'm a fan of this user 10 fans permalink

Given your points then maybe we should limit on federally elected officials to those who have served in our armed forces.
    Reply    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:26 PM on 11/12/2009
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- + Gasparilla I'm a Fan of Gasparilla I'm a fan of this user 28 fans permalink

Japan was not about to surrender. Even after the two bombs, it was a three three tie among the political and military leaders who got a vote. The emperor broke the tie. Had Japan at any time before offered the terms they ultimately accepted, an unconditional surrender with the emperor in a symbolic role, the American people would have insisted we accept.

In his speech to the Japanese people, he said that the surrender was because of a "cruel new weapon" [ironic considering their massive atrocities for the previous decade.] It was only their fear that we had more weapons ready, we didn't, that made them surrender. Many people on Okinawa were told by the Japanese military that the Americans were going to kill them, causing many of the natives to kill themselves. it's unlikely they would have done otherwise for the mainland, which would have made an invasion inevitable. Had Truman not dropped the bombs and the American people found out, he would have had hell to pay. Monday morning quarterbacking is easy.
    Reply    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 06:37 PM on 11/12/2009
- + Joethepauper I'm a Fan of Joethepauper I'm a fan of this user 52 fans permalink

Another one: http://www.archive.org/details/TaleofTw1946
    Reply    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 06:35 PM on 11/12/2009
- + Joethepauper I'm a Fan of Joethepauper I'm a fan of this user 52 fans permalink

That short video on his blog is just the tip of the iceberg, and barely even worth watching. Internet Archives has volumes of footage of this event and many other events in history. Here's a more in-depth view of what civilians experienced:

http://www.archive.org/details/AV_258-HIROSHIMA_AND_NAGASAKI-_WHAT_PEOPLE_EXPERIENCED

I have also found footage of Afghanistan (1965) before the Soviet invasion and the Taliban invasion. It's under Watson Kintner if you search moving images. Look around, there is much more.
    Reply    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 06:27 PM on 11/12/2009
- + sonofsamphm1c I'm a Fan of sonofsamphm1c I'm a fan of this user 23 fans permalink
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On the fire bombings, the original plan was to bomb military targets, cities with military facilities, with high-altitude bombing using the relatively new B-29s. They encountered winds aloft over Japan that were so strong it made hitting targets almost impossible. So LeMay opted to fly his bombers at low altitude and drop incendiaries.

http://aboutjapan.japansociety.org/resources/category/1/3/0/2/images/tokyo_bombing1.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/db/Tokyo_kushu_1945-3.jpg
    Reply    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 05:52 PM on 11/12/2009
- + Ergon I'm a Fan of Ergon I'm a fan of this user 70 fans permalink
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tokyo_firebombing shows otherwise
    Reply    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 07:41 PM on 11/12/2009
- + breakingrocks I'm a Fan of breakingrocks I'm a fan of this user 3 fans permalink
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Truman was asked to do a test for the Japanese so there would be no need for the mass murder. He refused. This will go down in history as the worst chapter in American history.
    Reply    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 05:47 PM on 11/12/2009
- + Gasparilla I'm a Fan of Gasparilla I'm a fan of this user 28 fans permalink

We only had two bombs ready. It took both of them to convince them to surrender, and even then it was touch and go. A lot of the military did not want to. But continue your slogans.
    Reply    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 06:39 PM on 11/12/2009
- + MiniMogul I'm a Fan of MiniMogul I'm a fan of this user 10 fans permalink

War is h e l l. There's gotta be a better way.
    Reply    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 05:30 PM on 11/12/2009
- + MadMaddie I'm a Fan of MadMaddie I'm a fan of this user permalink

In April of 1945, my paternal great-uncle (who was on his 25th mission on a B-25 bomber) was killed by the Japanese while bombing Tarakan Island, Borneo. He was 21 yrs old.
Confused that he was killed in Borneo and not Japan?
Yeah, so was my father and I.
My grandfather and his other 2 brothers (all of whom- btw- also served in WWII) have all passed away, so we did our own research.
Can ya guess why exactly the Japanese were on Tarakan Island and why we Americans wanted them out of there so badly? The island had 700 oil fields.
War coverups and blood & treasure lost for oil.
Some things never change, no?
    Reply    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 05:11 PM on 11/12/2009
- + cmk1967 I'm a Fan of cmk1967 I'm a fan of this user permalink

Sorry for the loss but I'm not sure what the problem is. Oil helped fuel the Japanese war machine. An island with oil would be a legitimate target, just as an industial site, supply lines, infastructure, airfields, war equipment, and troops would be. That's what war is. A day after Veterans Day you should honor him better than making it sound like he died for Exxon.
    Reply    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 05:47 PM on 11/12/2009
- + Joethepauper I'm a Fan of Joethepauper I'm a fan of this user 52 fans permalink

Oil also helped fuel the American war machine, and is the reason for the invasion/occupation of Iraq. Afghanistan was about a natural gas pipeline. Does oil or natural gas justify the killing of our own species? Are there other habitable planets where our species can relocate when we burn all that oil and natural gas (possibly causing our own extinction, or at least a future of misery for future humans?) Can't we stop being greedy and self-obcessed and share resources? We could solarize the Sahara desert and supply everyone with free energy instead of sucking it as fast as we can burn it. What other species kills members of it's kind over energy? What other species uses energy that is trapped underground and takes a huge investment to bring to the surface? All other species are solar-powered. So are we. Our cars and factories could be, but how would wealthy oil executives and wealthy Saudis make more money?
    Reply    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 06:49 PM on 11/12/2009
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- + Blaster I'm a Fan of Blaster I'm a fan of this user 2 fans permalink

I love the Atomic Bomb it saved my father's life he was all set for the invasion of Japan.
Well this also shows that America has no free press (Bushed).
We must take in consideration that Japan won the war at great costs we lost look at our cities today and our broken economy .
Another thought is look how the Japanese treated our prisoners of war and that is why I don't give a dam and I'm glad the United States used the Bomb.


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/greg-mitchell/for-veterans-day-the-grea_b_353270.html#comments