Atlantis Online
June 04, 2020, 05:14:42 pm
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Has the Location of the Center City of Atlantis Been Identified?
http://www.mysterious-america.net/hasatlantisbeenf.html
 
  Home Help Arcade Gallery Links Staff List Calendar Login Register  

ATLANTIS airs Oct 7th on History Channel

Pages: 1 2 [3] 4 5 6   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: ATLANTIS airs Oct 7th on History Channel  (Read 4318 times)
mdsungate
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 683


Hermes, Gateway of the Sun


« Reply #30 on: October 12, 2009, 08:34:12 pm »

 Smiley  I’m not doubting your translation, Nikas.  So then if you’re correct in you theory the Atlantis was much smaller than a continent, (as the popular conception of what Plato meant), and was located south west of Malta, then it would seem that a mistranslation started the whole “myth” of Atlantis being in the Atlantic Ocean.  

Forgive me for not getting out my copy of Plato’s dialogues, but it seems to me that if memeory serves me correctly, the Priests of Sais, seemed to imply, (at least in the popular translation), that the Atlanteans endangered all the people of the Mediterranean, and came from outside the area.  How does the ancient Greek translation differ in this part.  Also I’ve gone on your web site, and I’m not sure I understand the graphics you display.  It seems like they’re trying to say that when Atlantis sank, the terrain of the whole area inside the current straights of Gibraltar changed.  Would you elaborate on what that is all about?

There are many that contend that Plato made the whole tale up, and used it as an allegory for a utopian society.  Even his own student Aristotle apparently thought that about him.  I however think that almost everyone misses the whole point of the dialogues.  Plato’s leaving the dialogues unfinished only adds to the speculation.  I personally believe that even Aristotle didn’t get Plato’s drift, and Plato abandoned what was and still is a very unpopular theory,… the theory of destruction, which the Priests of Sais introduce at the very beginning of the dialogues.  But everyone seems to think that the myth of Atlantis is the point of the story, when I don’t see it that way.  I believe what Plato was driving at was that as perfect and utopian as Atlantis was, it was all wiped away in a fortnight, and that is the fragile state of our human endeavors.  Embarrassed  

And Qoais, feel free to jump in here, as I know that this is much more your expertise than mine, LOL. Tongue

Here’s the problem I see with your theory, Nikas, (and bear in mind that I’m not saying you’re wrong, or being critical of it)… It implies that Plato started the ball rolling on a total misconception that Atlantis was a large landmass in the Atlantic Ocean.  If that were true, (and again, I’m not saying that it isn’t true), then it would mean that all the people that have written about Atlantis, (people like Otto Muck, Donnelley, Berlitz, etc), were all acting under a misconception.  The “myth” of this Island Continent has been perpetuated for over 2,000 years then.  And it is my observation that lies don’t live on, only the truth endures.  So I have a problem in thinking that all these people could have been duped into a falsehood, and despite all their instincts, spend years researching and trying to discover something that was a misinterpretation of the ancient Greek writings.  Undecided

Here’s another problem I have with your theory, (and again you asked for a challenge, so please take this as such and not as an attack on what you might believe, for I totally respect your theory, and that you may in fact be correct while others could have been wrong):

Plato is not the only source of this myth.  It exits even more prevalently in the writings of the Hindu and Buddhist traditions.    Those far eastern traditions of a continent in the Atlantic that sank, (as well as an ever older one in the Pacific Ocean that also sank), are most probably even older than Plato’s account of Atlantis.  

Then there are the American Indian legends of them having come from and large island in the Atlantic Ocean that sank, (not from China by route of the Bering Straight, LOL).   And here we might add in Charles Berlitz’s observation that all the ancient peoples name for the Atlantic Ocean has the same root word in all four corners of that ocean, this not being a myth at all, but a very odd coincidence.

Lastly we need to mention Edgar Cayce’s readings on Atlantis, which if your theory is correct, than he made innumerable medical diagnoses correctly, but was totally wrong in regard to Atlantis.  

But as you mentioned earlier, “truth is stranger than fiction” so perhaps there is yet another understanding to an even larger “truth.”  Perhaps Plato was referring to an Island state off the south west coast of Malta that sank, and it is this civilization that was in conflict with Ancient Greece.  It does stand to reason that earthquakes in the Mediterranean would sink landmasses in the Mediterranean Sea at the same point in time.  But perhaps at an even older point in time there was a technologically advanced civilization on a continenent in the Atlantic Ocean that sank, leaving only legends and former name… Atlantis, a name that seems to trigger a “race memory” in many people.  And perhaps this island state southwest of Malta, took on the name of this long forgotten people as their own.

And so I present to you the possibility that while your theory may be correct, that it may not tell the entire story… a story that Plato did not fully comprehend himself.  Shocked

Please take what I have written in the spirit that it was intended.  Again I mean no disrespect to your laudable theory.  But if you find some resistance to your belief on the part of other’s, than what I’ve stated here is perhaps why you might meet with some criticism of it.  I’ve only stated the obvious.   You are among friends here, (this is not AR, LOL), and we all have our own pet theories that will certainly meet with criticism.  And yes Robert0', I too want to know just when was the Antarctic warmer?   Grin

Mike
Report Spam   Logged

Hermes Trismegistus:  “As above, so below.”
nikas
Guest
« Reply #31 on: October 12, 2009, 10:01:37 pm »

Ok Mike I see that you’re afraid you may offend me. I don’t get offended by intelligent people that ask smart, honest questions.

You’re right to ask questions and to be critical of my theory. I will try and answer all of them below;

Smiley  I’m not doubting your translation, Nikas.  So then if you’re correct in you theory the Atlantis was much smaller than a continent, (as the popular conception of what Plato meant), and was located south west of Malta, then it would seem that a mistranslation started the whole “myth” of Atlantis being in the Atlantic Ocean. 

That’s correct. Not just mistranslation but people like Donnelly and Edgar Casey…including here Cinematography…

Quote from: mdsungate
Forgive me for not getting out my copy of Plato’s dialogues, but it seems to me that if memory serves me correctly, the Priests of Sais, seemed to imply, (at least in the popular translation), that the Atlanteans endangered all the people of the Mediterranean, and came from outside the area.  How does the ancient Greek translation differ in this part?  Also I’ve gone on your web site, and I’m not sure I understand the graphics you display.  It seems like they’re trying to say that when Atlantis sank, the terrain of the whole area inside the current straights of Gibraltar changed.  Would you elaborate on what that is all about?

Yes they came from Atlantis Sea. Not Atlantis Ocean but Sea….Jowett mistake is that he translate it Sea for Ocean. That’s how all misconception started.

Atlantis sea(The sea around Malta). One misconception is that Atlantis was outside the pillars and Egypt + Greece were inside. When in reality it was the opposite. In ancient Greek, the priest explains that everything inside the Pillars is the area (modern; Tunis + Malta + Libya) while outside is Egypt and Greece.

Look at this passage:
Quote
Let me begin by observing first of all, that nine thousand was the sum of years which had elapsed since the war which was said to have taken place between those who dwelt outside the Pillars of Heracles and all who dwelt within them; this war I am going to describe. Of the combatants on the one side, the city of Athens was reported to have been the leader and to have fought out the war;

The war between those outside the pillars and those inside
   Between         Greece                            Atlantis.

When you read this passage in Greek he uses the word men and den, which is similar to Engish version of…John and Kate respectively (example).

In Greek you say the war between those outside and those inside. IMEN (the first) were the Greeks (the leaders) and IDEN were the Atlanteans.

You see how easy is translated by me.
And yes (to answer your question about the terrain change) Mediterranean changed a lot during that period. It is supported by science. Especially Geology and Oceanography.

Quote
There are many that contend that Plato made the whole tale up, and used it as an allegory for a utopian society.  Even his own student Aristotle apparently thought that about him.  I however think that almost everyone misses the whole point of the dialogues.  Plato’s leaving the dialogues unfinished only adds to the speculation.  I personally believe that even Aristotle didn’t get Plato’s drift, and Plato abandoned what was and still is a very unpopular theory,… the theory of destruction, which the Priests of Sais introduce at the very beginning of the dialogues.  But everyone seems to think that the myth of Atlantis is the point of the story, when I don’t see it that way.  I believe what Plato was driving at was that as perfect and utopian as Atlantis was, it was all wiped away in a fortnight, and that is the fragile state of our human endeavors.  Embarrassed 


Whoever thinks that Plato made it up has failed in understanding Philosophy Especially Greek Philosophy. The etymology of PHILOSOPFER = Love + Wisdom or can be translated as in search of truth. These people were in love with the truth. Socrates even invented his own methodology (which still the best to date) the Socratic methodology. The Way of finding the truth….The dialog. And that’s why Plato wrote most of his work in dialog style.
To say that he invented the story would be a fallacy. Only ignorant of Ancient history would make such a claim. I would understand if they accuse Critias or Solon or even the Egyptian priest but not Plato!!!
As for the Dialog’s ending I believe it got lost or something…or maybe he didn’t have time to finish. I have nothing to say about it…as I don’t know what happened.

Quote
Here’s the problem I see with your theory, Nikas, (and bear in mind that I’m not saying you’re wrong or being critical of it)… It implies that Plato started the ball rolling on a total misconception that Atlantis was a large landmass in the Atlantic Ocean.  If that were true, (and again, I’m not saying that it isn’t true), then it would mean that all the people that have written about Atlantis, (people like Otto Muck, Donnelley, Berlitz, etc), were all acting under a misconception.  The “myth” of this Island Continent has been perpetuated for over 2,000 years then.  And it is my observation that lies don’t live on, only the truth endures.  So I have a problem in thinking that all these people could have been duped into a falsehood, and despite all their instincts, spend years researching and trying to discover something that was a misinterpretation of the ancient Greek writings.  Undecided

First of all Plato never said anything. He only recorded a conversation between Socrates and Critias Quoting an Egyptian Priest but translated by Solon. Nowhere on the description did the priest say that it was a huge landmass in the Atlantic Ocean. I explained to you that he said that the island was before you reach the pillars not beyond. That’s another misconception. But the problem with Atlantis starts with the location of the Pillars. To answer here also the question from Qoasis; the location of the pillars was not what people think today. I have spent countless time at classical work (600 B.C – 300 B.C) and I found not a single reference that point at Gibraltar. They all pinpoint near Tunis, between Sardinia and Egadi Island. It’s a funny thing that even during Plato’s time…the location of the pillars was in dispute. They knew about it (near Egadi Islands) but no one knew the exact locations. Only at written records after 300 B.C did I find references that pinpoint the location at Iberia. However I have explained all these about the pillars at another thread.

Quote
Here’s another problem I have with your theory, (and again you asked for a challenge, so please take this as such and not as an attack on what you might believe, for I totally respect your theory, and that you may in fact be correct while others could have been wrong):

Plato is not the only source of this myth.  It exits even more prevalently in the writings of the Hindu and Buddhist traditions.    Those far eastern traditions of a continent in the Atlantic that sank, (as well as an ever older one in the Pacific Ocean that also sank), are most probably even older than Plato’s account of Atlantis. 
Yes he may not be the only one but he is the most correct one or at least the most detailed. Now, I have heard of tales in other cultures that mention Atlantis but I am not sure if they’re talking about the same place. The main reason why I am skeptical is that Atlantis is not the real name. It’s just a translation in Greek. Who knows what the real name was…so once more people speculate just to get attention.  And furthermore, why do they have to be Atlantis? And not some other catastrophes? A destruction of that magnitude must have been global and it may have destroyed other civilizations as well, not only Atlantis?!


Quote
Lastly we need to mention Edgar Cayce’s readings on Atlantis, which if your theory is correct, than he made innumerable medical diagnoses correctly, but was totally wrong in regard to Atlantis. 


Look, I don’t believe in this psychic thing. And I have no Idea what exactly this Casey was. I watched a documentary one day on history channel and he looked like a charlatan to me. He was talking about Crystals and flying saucers in Atlantis time which is a ridiculous thing to say when Plato describes a civilization with Spears and horses and swords for armory. A primitive society with our standards, not even close to Romans or even Egyptian civilization.

Quote
But as you mentioned earlier, “truth is stranger than fiction” so perhaps there is yet another understanding to an even larger “truth.”  Perhaps Plato was referring to an Island state off the south west coast of Malta that sank, and it is this civilization that was in conflict with Ancient Greece.  It does stand to reason that earthquakes in the Mediterranean would sink landmasses in the Mediterranean Sea at the same point in time.  But perhaps at an even older point in time there was a technologically advanced civilization on a continent in the Atlantic Ocean that sank, leaving only legends and former name… Atlantis, a name that seems to trigger a “race memory” in many people.  And perhaps this island state southwest of Malta, took on the name of this long forgotten people as their own.

That’s a possibility. I strongly believe that at one point in time there was a civilization more advanced than ours who may have genetically experimented or you named it. Nevertheless, Atlantis is not the case….unfortunately. But as I said this is just a believe based on just certain observation without scientific prove, nevertheless the case of Atlantis is a 100% a scientific research done by me.

Quote
And so I present to you the possibility that while your theory may be correct, that it may not tell the entire story… a story that Plato did not fully comprehend himself.  Shocked

Yes…of course but one thing at a time. Lets find Atlantis, make people believe in it and then we look for more.
Please take what I have written in the spirit that it was intended. 

Quote
Again I mean no disrespect to your laudable theory.  But if you find some resistance to your belief on the part of other’s, than what I’ve stated here is perhaps why you might meet with some criticism of it.  I’ve only stated the obvious.   You are among friends here, (this is not AR, LOL), and we all have our own pet theories that will certainly meet with criticism.  And yes Robert0', I too want to know just when was the Antarctic warmer?   Grin

Of course I believe that you intended no harm or offense in anyway. I am enjoying debating with you and wish to continue. As I previously stated, it’s called Socratic Methodology…dialog and only dialog and truth will prevail…
Respect,
NIKAS

[/quote]
« Last Edit: October 12, 2009, 10:07:27 pm by nikas » Report Spam   Logged
Robert0326
Superhero Member
******
Posts: 1156



« Reply #32 on: October 13, 2009, 02:33:48 am »

Ok guys. I hope this helps.  The cores were taken by Dr. Jack Hough of the Univ. of Illinios during the Byrd expedition of 1947-1948.  They were taken to the Carnegie Instition in Washington D.C. and dated by the ionium method of radioactive dating by Dr. W.D. Urry.  The saples were takenfrom three different locations.  70 deg. 17' S 178 deg. 15' W 2,990 M deep, 69 deg. 12' S 180 deg. S. at 3,130 M. deep, 68 deg. 26' S 179 deg. 15'W at 3,292 M. deep. 

The fine-grained sediment that was found is the sort that is carried by rivers from ice-free continents.  Also during the Byrd expedition of 1935 geologists made a rich discovery of fossils on the sides of Mount Weaver (Lat. 86 deg. 58'S) which included leaf and stem impressions and fossilized wood.  In 1952 they identified two species of a tree fern called Glossopteris once common to southern continents (Africa, South America and Australia.)
Report Spam   Logged

Blasphemy is a victimless crime.
"The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the Supreme Being as His father, in the womb of a virgin will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter."     Letter to John Adams, April 11, 1823 -Thomas Jefferson
Qoais
Superhero Member
******
Posts: 3423



« Reply #33 on: October 13, 2009, 10:28:36 am »

G'day people,
Sungate, I have to pretty well agree with a lot of Nikas's theory, because I actually worked on it for quite a while myself, and without knowing the proper translations, could see how his conclusion is correct.  When we were back on Robert Sarmast's forum, we chatted about this and I too, did research on just where the pillars of Hercules was at the time, and found that no one knew in Plato's time where they really were originally, just that it was an expression used to denote "you can travel no farther".  I researched into where Hercules supposedly put up his bragging pillars and found that the one that "fit the bill" was the one he erected in the place where he destroyed the city of the Amazons.  Cherronesus I believe it was called.  From reading Diodours Siculus, it seems the lay of the land as they knew it, is not what it actually was.  Therefore, I found that Cherronesus was near modern day Tunis. 

One has to read the passage over and over and stay focused but Siculus says:

"As mythology relates, their home was on an island which, because it was in the west, was called Hespera, and it lay in the marsh Tritonis.  This marsh was near the ocean which surrounds the earth and received its name from a certain river Triton which emptied int it: and this marsh was also near Ethiopia and that mountain by the shore of the ocean which is the highest of those in the vicinity and impinges upon the ocean and is called by the Greeks, Atlas.  The island mentioned above was of great size and full of fruit-bearing trees of every kind, from which the natives secured their food.  It contained also a multitude of flocks and herds, namely, of goats and sheep, from which the possessors received milk and meat for their sustenance: but grain the nations used not at all because the use of this fruit of the earth had not yet been discovered among them."

So - taking the first line we see a great number of things that fit with Nikas' theory.  There was a large island in the west.  Called Hespera, BECAUSE it was in the west.  However we also find that it lay in the marsh Tritonis, and Tritonis was near the ocean that surrounds the earth.  But also in this same place we have the famous mount Atlas.  I've posted this in my thread Plato's Atlantis My Theory, but since that thread is over a hundred pages now with my ramblings, I will re-post a picture of the area in question:

I took this picture from Georges site, at first just to show where he was claiming Atlantis was, and then it dawned on me that it helped Nikas' theory as well:



I will continue in another post, so as to keep each post readably short.
Report Spam   Logged

An open-minded view of the past allows for an unprejudiced glimpse into the future.

Logic rules.

"Intellectual brilliance is no guarantee against being dead wrong."
Qoais
Superhero Member
******
Posts: 3423



« Reply #34 on: October 13, 2009, 10:58:13 am »

In the picture in the previous post you will see a huge circular indentation on the eastern end of the Atlas mountains.  This is the Marsh Tritonis.  I did some research on that as well, and I could re post it here but it would take me some time to go back in my thread to find it and I kind of don't think this thread is really the place we should be talking about this.  Nikas has a thread I believe and we should have a go at his theory in his thread.

Anyway, we can see from the picture that at the time Siculus wrote, (and he says he was copying from earlier writers) that they thought things were in places where they weren't!!  so if we accept everything at face value for the times - like what they supposedly knew and what they understood and what they assumed and what they deducted from tales of sailors etc., we (I) find that they did think the Eastern end of the Med. was a harbour and that the Western end was part of or connected to, the world ocean.  Therefore, they thought that at the point where the water narrowed at Malta  (Sicily) was the passage to the ocean, therefore, the pillars of Heracles "as the Greeks called them" (in other words a demarcation point) were at that point.   Looking at the picture I posted, we see that this fits more or less with the story that Hercules put up pillars where he razed Cherronesus.

He says the island was of great size and in describing it's bounty, more or less describes Atlantis.  Then Siculus says:

"Setting out from the city of Cherronesus, the account continues, the amazons embarked upon great ventures, a longing having come over them to invade many parts of the inhabited world.  The first people against whom they advanced, according to the tale, was the Atlantians, the most civilized men among the inhabitants of those regions, who dwelt in a prosperous country and possess great cities: it was among them, we are told, that mythology places the birth of the gods, in the regions which lie along the shore of the ocean, in this respect agreeing with those among the Greeks who relate legends, and about this we shall speak in detail a little later." 

Continuing:  After a pitched battle with the Atlantians in their city of Cerne they defeated the Atlantians and took over that city.  They killed the men and youths, and took into slavery everyone else in the city, so the rest of the Atlantians capitualted and said they'd do whatever she wanted.  She behaved honorably toward them then and:

"whereupon the Atlantians presented her with magnificent presents and by public decree voted to her notable honours, and she in return accepted their courtesy and in addition promised that she would show kindness to their nation"

(Forgot to metion this earlier)  "The story is also told that the marsh Tritonis disappeared from sight in the course of an earthquake, when those parts of it which lay towards the ocean were torn asunder."

If you look at the picture, you will see a Cherronesus (translated - peninsula) sticking straight out into the Med at the eastern end of the Atlas mountains, towards Sicily.  We know at one time there was a land bridge to Sicily, but I've had a number of people argue as to just when it collapsed.  I suspect some of it broke away from time to time, and I think that in known history they may have always been a passage there, but farther back, I suspect the passage was narrower and shallower.  Again, that thing that picks me the most - timelines!!   

I would also like to mention that although the Amazons supposedly lived on an island, as did the Atlantians, they were likely islands within the marsh, as again, if  go back to my thread, I've posted where it is said that one can walk through the water to get to other islands in the marsh and then I suppose, to the "continent" or terra firma.
« Last Edit: October 13, 2009, 11:26:07 am by Qoais » Report Spam   Logged

An open-minded view of the past allows for an unprejudiced glimpse into the future.

Logic rules.

"Intellectual brilliance is no guarantee against being dead wrong."
Qoais
Superhero Member
******
Posts: 3423



« Reply #35 on: October 13, 2009, 11:21:47 am »

Ok - I'll try to slow down a bit and make some sense!!

Yes, I believe that an erroneous translation has been perpetuated over the centuries.  When people started becoming interested  in Atlantis after Ignatious Donnelly brought it to the forefront again, THEN moderns started questioning the translations and we've been debating it ever since.  Somewhere in this forum there is a thread with the complete translation by Atalante, and the determinitives are explained regarding the language.  I was totally surprised myself when I read the differences in the translations by the different writers, Bury, Jowett, and others.   It changed the whole scenario.

My previous post was a bit disjointed so I hope you could follow along.  What I'm trying to say, is that if we take what we think was known at the time, with no embellishments, and no assuming things beyond their capacity of understanding, I believe that the two ends of the Med. were considered two bodies of water, joined by a narrow channel.  However, the western one would have been considered part of the world ocean because they thought that whatever land was west of that channel, was islands - which it isn't.  So we in our modern times, knowing that it isn't, try to place an island way out yonder in the Atlantic ocean.  I believe Nikas is correct when he says that only two "contients" or "mainlands" were thought to exist.  One on the north of the Med. and one on the South, and the two were surrounded by the world ocean, of which, the western end of the Med. (Atlas's ocean) was a part.  They did believe in the ancient times, that they could access the world ocean by going east as well.  Siculus in his works, copied from Homer as well.  Here is what is known as the Homerian map, although it's a copy of a copy of a copy etc., as apparently we don't have the original, but I think it might be safe to assume that the copy people didn't screw the whole thing up totally!!



« Last Edit: October 13, 2009, 11:28:22 am by Qoais » Report Spam   Logged

An open-minded view of the past allows for an unprejudiced glimpse into the future.

Logic rules.

"Intellectual brilliance is no guarantee against being dead wrong."
Qoais
Superhero Member
******
Posts: 3423



« Reply #36 on: October 13, 2009, 12:17:17 pm »

Scholars debate as to whether Atlantis was real or allegory.  It is my opinion, that it was both.

Plato says he's using Solon's notes to write the dialogs.  Fine.  The Egyptians kept wonderful records and it's possible that while chatting about what they knew - and Solon was on a mission to gain knowledge wasn't he? - they talked about a peoples to the west of them and described what THEY had been told about them.  Now according to Siculus, it seems that whoever wrote the history he was copying for his works, took it for granted that the Atlantians were located near the Amazons.  It was not a great mystery to THEM where the Atlantians lived because after all, theirs was the land where the gods were born and where everything was as it should be.  In other words, perfect.  How could it be otherwise - in the land of the gods' birth?  Plato was striving to teach the Greeks to be perfect.  Who else would he hold up for an example, but those who already WERE supposedly perfect?  The story of Atlantis is Plato's idea of perfection, before it deteriorated.  He's trying to point out that yes, even perfection can be destroyed if it's allowed.  So we get this wonderful description of Atlantis, Plato's idea of the ideal.  Everything necessary to luxurious living was available if they wanted to use it, but being of a more spiritual bent, they chose not to (until later). 

Now I'm absolutely dense when it comes to the origin of the gods, and I don't know who first wrote about the gods and their achievements so correct me if I'm wrong here.  Was it Plato or someone else who told about the God Poseidon mating with Clieto and having 10 sons?  Then, according to someone - I don' know who - one of those sons had 10 sons (one of Atlas's brothers that is) and they became the Titans.  Right?  So was it Plato who actually started this myth, or was it in existence previously?  It seems the Greeks (from hind site looking back) believed Poseidon mated with Clieto and had 10 sons, but nothing was said about their home life or the land they lived in until Plato described it.

We must keep in mind that Plato had been asked to tell a story of stories, one that would outshine all the stories they'd told as children to earn awards. He wouldn't have been asked if he wasn't good at it in the first place.   Everyone says Plato was not a historian he was a philosopher and because of that, he got things mixed up and had no imagination.  I say because he was a philosopher and knew the minds of men, he would have had a fabulous imagination and knew how to get through to the mind set of his times.  Not only that, he had in mind what would be a perfect society.  He knew what his peers wanted to hear and he did a fantastic job of marrying the two ideals together and still be true to his own innate beliefs of a perfect society.  Who better to choose for his example of an ideal, but the gods themselves?  Plato more than achieved what he'd been asked to do. 

He told the story of all time when you think about it, as we're still trying to find the place he talked about. Here's a man that took it upon himself to actually describe the home of the gods.  Whether anything like this was actually in Solon's notes, we'll never know, but if you're going to tell an award winning story, why not start at the beginning, with the land of the gods?  Atlantis, where in the beginning they were spiritual and peaceful.  Just what Plato was hoping the Greeks would aspire to. 

What I question is the war because I don't see such a thing actually happening especially in the time line Plato gives.  Also, altho is he telling the Greeks that they should change and try to be perfection, it was the Greeks that supposedly won out against the people who had been perfection in the past.  Therefore, what would be the point of the Greeks becoming like the Atlantians, when the Atlantians lost?  He also shows that perfection cannot be maintained, so why should they try for it in the first place? 

Report Spam   Logged

An open-minded view of the past allows for an unprejudiced glimpse into the future.

Logic rules.

"Intellectual brilliance is no guarantee against being dead wrong."
Qoais
Superhero Member
******
Posts: 3423



« Reply #37 on: October 13, 2009, 01:58:24 pm »

In my own thread, I've been postulating about the possibility that Plato and a few others over the centuries were visiting the future in mind altered states.  That's why I said here, that without embellishing anything and just accept that what they knew about the lay of the land was different than what it really was.

That is not to say that Plato didn't see the akashic records and took a tale from there, however, in light of scientific discoveries, I would suggest that he saw the future not the past.  If science is correct and the earth was mostly covered in ice up until 10,000 years or so ago, there wouldn't really be any place for the non-existent triremes to sail, would there?
Report Spam   Logged

An open-minded view of the past allows for an unprejudiced glimpse into the future.

Logic rules.

"Intellectual brilliance is no guarantee against being dead wrong."
Qoais
Superhero Member
******
Posts: 3423



« Reply #38 on: October 13, 2009, 05:09:59 pm »

Diodorus Siculus Book III 56: 1-4

In the above noted writings, Siculus goes on to tell of the genesis of the gods of Atlantis.  

He says Uranus was their first god, who had 45 sons from a number of wives and of these, eighteen were by Titaea, each of them bearing a distinct name, but all of them as a group were called after their mother, Titans.  Uranus also had daughters.  The eldest Basileia far excelled the others in both prudence and understanding, reared all her brothers, showing them collectively a mother's kindness (their mother had died).  She united in marriage with her favorite brother Hyperion and they had two children Helius and Selene.  Her other brothers, the Titans, fearing that Hyperion would divert the royal power to himself , they killed him and cast Helius into the Eridanus river.  (a footnote marks that the Eridanus river is the Po river - the Po river being in Italy)  The sister Selene who loved her brother, threw herself off the roof, but their mother Basileia while searching for her son's body along the banks of the river, fell into a swoon in which she had a vision in which her son Helius stood over her and told her not to mourn as the Titans would get what was coming to them for their crime.  He said that he and his sister by some divine providence, would be transformed into immortal natures, since that which had formerly been called the "holy fire" in the heavens would be called by men Helius ("the sun") and that addressed as "mene" would be called Selene ("the moon").  When she was aroused from the swoon, and after telling the crown what had happened to her and her children, she became frenzied, and seizing such of her daughter's playthings as could make a noise, she began to wander over the land, with her hair hanging free, inspired by the noise of the kettledrums and cymbals, so that those who saw her were struck with astonishment.  And all men were filled with pity at her misfortune and some were clinging to her body, when there came a mighty storm and continuous crashes of thunder and lightning: and in the midst of this Basileia passed from sight, whereupon the corwds of people, amazed at this reversal of fortune, transferred the names and the honours of Helius and Selene to the stars of the sky, and as for their mother, they considered her to be a goddess and erected altars to her, and imitating the the incidents of her life by the poinding of the kettledrums and the clash of the cymbals they rendered unto her in this way sacrifices and all other honours.  

60.  After the death of Hyperion, the myth relates, the kingdom was divided among the sons of Uranus, the most renowned of whom were Atlas and Cronus.  Of these sons Atlas received as his part the regions on the coast of the ocean, and he not only gave the name of Atlantians to his peoples but likewise called the greatest mountain in the land Atlas.  They also say that he perfected the science of astrology and was the first to publish to mankind the doctrine of the sphere, and it was for this reason that the idea was held that the entire heavens were supported upon the shoulders of Atlas, the myth darkly hinting in this way at his discovery and description of the sphere.  

So in the above, we see that the "gods" already lived in Italy (so would have power there) and that the sons spread out from there, splitting the further lands amongst themselves, but it was only the children of Atlas that were called Atlantians.  Where we start to see a little problem is that I think people think that his brother's descendants (brother Eumelous who was given the land "facing" the pillars of Hercules) were also Atlantians.  I don't think so (although I could be wrong of course).  We also have a major bone of contention with the word "facing" in the translations.  It can also mean "beside", "in front of", and I can't remember what else.  Perhaps Nikas can help us with that.
Report Spam   Logged

An open-minded view of the past allows for an unprejudiced glimpse into the future.

Logic rules.

"Intellectual brilliance is no guarantee against being dead wrong."
Qoais
Superhero Member
******
Posts: 3423



« Reply #39 on: October 13, 2009, 05:32:56 pm »

I shall now switch over and post in Plato's Atlantis My Theory

http://atlantisonline.smfforfree2.com/index.php/topic,442.1560.html
Report Spam   Logged

An open-minded view of the past allows for an unprejudiced glimpse into the future.

Logic rules.

"Intellectual brilliance is no guarantee against being dead wrong."
mdsungate
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 683


Hermes, Gateway of the Sun


« Reply #40 on: October 14, 2009, 01:18:52 am »

 Smiley  Thank you Qoais for all that, which DID take a while for me to read, LOL.  Roll Eyes  I'll follow you to your link on Plato's Atlantis, where perhaps we can debate on Nikas's theory as well as yours, as all this has little to do with Greg Little' s recent explorations, (which if you and Nikas are correct, then he's looking in the wrong place, LOL).

I'm still a bit confused as to the geography involved.  And I have lots of questions and So if we move this discussion to that other thread, I guess I'll be taking on the role of "devil's advocate" with you and Nikas.  I don't doubt that there's something substantial about what you are adressing, but there's lots of "buts" that come to mind.   Cool

Mike
Report Spam   Logged

Hermes Trismegistus:  “As above, so below.”
Jennifer O'Dell
Superhero Member
******
Posts: 4546



« Reply #41 on: October 14, 2009, 11:45:34 am »

Sorry, but if anyone has seen how infinitesimally small Malta is compared to the description given by Plato, there is no way it could be Atlantis.

Maybe it was a seaport, though. You know the Knights Hospitaller controlled it for centuries after the Crusdades, till Napoleon took it over.
Report Spam   Logged
nikas
Guest
« Reply #42 on: October 14, 2009, 01:37:07 pm »

Sorry, but if anyone has seen how infinitesimally small Malta is compared to the description given by Plato, there is no way it could be Atlantis.

Maybe it was a seaport, though. You know the Knights Hospitaller controlled it for centuries after the Crusdades, till Napoleon took it over.

Ok I have explained many times before but people don't pay attention to what I am saying; Malta is not Atlantis with the concentric circles e.t.c. Atlantis is submerged next to Malta. Malta is Mount Atlas or some mountain that was taller at that time or something. Atlantis was way bigger and is now submerged underwater and in a way subdued. Destroyed!!! Cart ruts in Malta that just drop into the sea prove that Malta itself was bigger in ancient times. Malta fits 100% the description of Plato’s Atlantis. I have done my research and I found out that Mount Etna (the Volcano) was born right at the time that Atlantis disappear. There was another volcano instead which blew up and created such destruction that parts of it were found in Arctic ice by core samples.
P.S Atlantis was not as big as people think. Read the description given by Plato but the stadio has to be 55 m (Egyptian), not 150 m(Greek). The story is narrated by the Egyptian so the Stadio is 55 meters.


Report Spam   Logged
Qoais
Superhero Member
******
Posts: 3423



« Reply #43 on: October 14, 2009, 08:00:50 pm »

I would be more than happy for you to be devil's advocate Sungate.  Nikas, you too.  I'll just post this here - it's the second last post I made over in my thread.

However, and I should have remembered this from the last time I went this round, that Plato did mention not just the Pillars of Heracles, but the STRAITS of Heracles, so I suppose we have to admit just from that sentence, that he WAS talking about the Straits of Gibraltar.

..there was an island situated in front of the straits which are by you called the Pillars of Heracles; the island was larger than Libya and Asia put together, and was the way to other islands, and from these you might pass to the whole of the opposite continent which surrounded the true ocean; for this sea which is within the Straits of Heracles is only a harbour, having a narrow entrance, but that other is a real sea, and the surrounding land may be most truly called a boundless continent.

Now unless the waterway between North Africa and Sicily was once named the Straits of Herakles I think we have to go with it being the Straits of Gibraltar.  So we're back to square one with Atlantis being outside the Med.
Report Spam   Logged

An open-minded view of the past allows for an unprejudiced glimpse into the future.

Logic rules.

"Intellectual brilliance is no guarantee against being dead wrong."
mdsungate
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 683


Hermes, Gateway of the Sun


« Reply #44 on: October 14, 2009, 09:55:10 pm »

 Smiley  QUOTE FROM NIKAS: 

Quote
Ok I have explained many times before but people don't pay attention to what I am saying;

LOL, I sense you frustration Nikas, but obviously Jennifer’s confusion arises from the hundreds, if not over 2,000 years of preconditioning, if you are indeed correct, and the whole notion of Atlantis arises from a misconception from failed translation of the Ancient Greek.

I’m also paying attention, as I’m sure she is, but as simple a concept as you may think your theory is, it goes against most of what we have come to know about Atlantis.  It’s not a lack of understanding, but our preconceptions that are at the bottom of the communication problem you seem to be frustrated about, LOL.   Cheesy

I have lots more questions about your theory, and also some “criticisms” which you’ll need to address not just for me, but for the general public who has come to know the whole story of Atlantis, based on those now age old traditions.

But I’ll post them in Qoais’s Plato thread where they might be more fitting, especially if we go looking for them in the future, for who would think of looking for them in a thread dedicated to Greg Little’s explorations.  After all he is a member of the A.R.E. and he is acting on his belief in Edgar Cayce’s conception of Atlantis as an Island Continent in the Atlantic.  So in deference to Greg, I’ll now post some of those questions in Qoais’s thread on Plato. 

http://atlantisonline.smfforfree2.com/index.php/topic,442.1560.html

And Robert0’ I’m sorry for ignoring you.  I’m reading up on the link you posted about Admiral Bird’s ice core samples.  The good Admiral is a very controversial topic himself.  If there isn’t a thread for Atlantis in the Antarctic, then YOU should start one, as you seem to have a few people here who are clearly open to the idea.
 Grin
Mike
Report Spam   Logged

Hermes Trismegistus:  “As above, so below.”
Pages: 1 2 [3] 4 5 6   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by EzPortal
Bookmark this site! | Upgrade This Forum
SMF For Free - Create your own Forum
Powered by SMF | SMF © 2016, Simple Machines
Privacy Policy