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Does One Have a Moral Responsibility to Fight Evil?


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Volitzer
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« Reply #15 on: August 01, 2007, 01:43:09 pm »

Saw a bumper sticker today....BUSH...LIKE A ROCK...ONLY DUMBER


 Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin
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Volitzer
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« Reply #16 on: August 01, 2007, 01:48:21 pm »

"The world is a dangerous place, not because of those who do evil, but because of those who look on and do nothing." - Albert Einstein



How true, apathetic sheeple are the greatest soil for evil to flourish.   Angry
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HereForNow
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HUH?


« Reply #17 on: August 06, 2007, 10:00:57 pm »

Quote
... the prophecy of revelations...

Not to get of track here, but HereForNow are/were you a Jehovah's Witness? It is not a bad thing if so. It would mean that you are bringing a very different perspective to these discussions. Just curious.

I for one think that the more, and varied, perspectives we can get, the better.

My obviously ambiguous view of "evil" makes my responding to this topic very hard. As such other than this intrusion, I will continue to read along.
Sorry to disrupt the train of posting.  Smiley

Jake

Actually it's funny you ask me this. My mother is a jehovahs witness. It's probably the reason I don't really study the bible with them too. On the other hand, what exactly is Evil in your perspective?

To be honest, and I know this might be hard for some of you to hear.
Anton LeVay was very honest about the nature of humans and to some extent I agreed with his hypothesis of life.
However I will never deny the existence of a Divine ruling force or energy.
It's our divine collective energies that is hurting us the most. This is because we are flawed from birth from generations of sin and mutation. This makes us incapable of evolving beyond this stage until a change of energies takes place. We have in fact degenerated from our once greater being.
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HereForNow
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« Reply #18 on: August 06, 2007, 10:02:26 pm »

I know what you might be thinking folks, but Jake asked.....
I like Jake, so I'm answering him honestly.
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HereForNow
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« Reply #19 on: August 06, 2007, 10:11:16 pm »

"The world is a dangerous place, not because of those who do evil, but because of those who look on and do nothing." - Albert Einstein



How true, apathetic sheeple are the greatest soil for evil to flourish.   Angry

True but Goats, are still hunted by wolves while doing little more themselves.
And While were at it Einstein's theory of everything would have been a Contradiction to that quote.
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Andrew Waters
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« Reply #20 on: August 07, 2007, 12:37:18 pm »


  Does one have the moral responsibility to fight evil?

Herefornow says, ''However I will never deny the existence of a Divine ruling force or energy.''

I'm thinking had Herefornow left off the ''divine'' part in the ''ruling force or energy'' then God is nowhere to be found thus taking care of the position to say God created evil. On the other hand if God is the driving ruling force or energy then  ''This is because we are flawed from birth.... This makes us incapable of evolving beyond this stage until a change of energies takes place.''

If the ruling force is divine then only the divine has the wherewithal to manipulate the energy of the ruling force and to affect a change in it. If the force isn't divine then where can God be found in the equation. Said another way, if God is the creator of humankind and isn't divine then it simply means we are the same as the God/s and not the ruling energy force—which controls God. Meaning everyone on this planet is caught up in this kaleidoscopic reality. Further, there will be no need to express discontent in the question of this topic. So just who is divine, the ruling energy force or God?  Either way we are trapped.
 
Non-sequitur: I'm glad my bathroom leak is repaired. Wink
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Majeston
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« Reply #21 on: August 07, 2007, 02:07:56 pm »

Full responsibility for peace rests upon the English-speaking nations.  They had the
mastery after 1915, but didn't recognize and accept the call to duty.  England and
the United States turned their backs on the high privilege of planetary service.
They wanted peace, prosperity and national security; they got depression,
unemployment, insecurity, and in twenty years another war.  The United States
increased its trials and tribulations a million fold by trying to escape its
responsibility.


Between the two wars nothing was done to prepare the children and the youth of the
nation for their coming responsibility — their part to play in the world progress —
and many of them refused to grow up.  Why did democracy decline so rapidly between
the two wars?  The leaders in England, France and America were short-sighted. Many
couldn't see beyond their own personal interests.  These men sometimes performed
against public sentiment; but even when replaced by others, the new ones behaved
likewise.  There was paucity of leadership and indifference to liberty.  They saw
Mussolini, Hitler and Tojo arming, but didn't take it seriously.  Democracy was not
willing to fight.  At various times an army of 5,000 to 25,000 men could have
prevented this war.  The Democracies were unwilling and totally unorganized.  They
hated war and longed for peace — but could you run a business or even manage a home
so shortsightedly?  The cowardly leaders of Democracy have set the clock of
civilization back 2,000 years.  But we have a chance to start afresh.  Today there is
little Democracy to defend, and we can build a new world order from the ground up;
but we must reject the policy of nonresistance.  You cant be as brotherly as you
would like to be with an unbrotherly brother.

 
The real problem is: Man wants liberty, and liberty with equality; but equality never
has existed.  Freedom is an ideal.  It doesn't exist.


Evolution can have freedom only with compulsion.  We must restrain by compulsion.
This is true of the individual, community, state, nation and in family life.  There
is no sense to the doctrine of freedom that gives citizens the right to combat and
destroy the freedoms that Democracy gives.  There is no peace on earth with the
license to destroy the liberty and sovereignty of other peoples.
  No nations can
exist on a level above law.  Freedom is fostered by human liberalism and
Christianity.  What is liberalism in one generation is conservatism in the next.
Liberalism has become dogmatic and Democracy has ceased to grow.  Democracy ceased to
keep pace with industrial progress.  Self-government is slowly committing suicide.

Freedom must be ever militant and must unhesitatingly destroy whatever assails
freedom, and be intolerant concerning things undemocratic.  There should be no
liberty of speech for those who would destroy liberty of speech.  The tools of
freedom must not function in a suicidal capacity.  There must be no liberty to vote
in the freedoms of Democracy to destroy the right to vote.


 
Democracy today is being destroyed by those who wish to use Democracy.  Democracy is
not a club to join and forever enjoy its protection.  As long as Democracy's basic
freedoms exist, it is a Democracy.

The right view of Democracy is a geographic group of people having a common ideal.
To allow Germans to live here and retain their German citizenship is like letting the
wolves live with the sheep.  Offices must be held by citizens trained in schools of
statesmanship.  These schools must be established.



The nations are suffering from intense industrialism and augmented nationalism.  In
times past Nationalism was a good thing; it brought people together in a common
interest, within law and representative government.  But when a social ideal becomes
a political dogma, it becomes an obstacle to world progress.  Nationalism becomes a
relic of patriotism which no forward-looking prophet would dare touch.

Nationalism persists because it has not been attacked by modern and intelligent
citizens who do not seek to disrupt, but to save it by intelligent control.  Present
day Nationalism is akin to polytheism.  Nation and race became the pagan god of many
modern people.  The time has come to give way before a monotheistic policy of
Internationalism.  The churches must divorce themselves from Nationalism.


Internationalism will not be created by pacts, treaties, appeasements, etc.  It will
be created by force of arms.  It is the only way for the next 1000 years of
civilizations evolution.  International Legislatures must make the international
laws; an International Court must interpret the laws; and International Police must
enforce the laws.  Lesser nations must be forced into the international union.

Not in centuries has the Christian world had the opportunity to establish regional
internationalism.  Now, following total war, is the time to establish international
government.  Socialism, Communism and other world movements have lost their
influence.  Now there must be coercive law with the sure penalties attached to its
violation.  The god of Nationalism struck at the liberty of Democracy and at the
Christian religion.

Nationalism reached the beginning of the end when you could cross the ocean in six
hours and it took six weeks to get a visa.  Recalcitrant and selfish Nationalism must
be made to accept Internationalism.  It wont regret it 25 years from now.

There are only two realities in the world — the individual and the human race.  The
cosmos does not recognize caste, tribe, race or nation.  National war will end when
you recognize that nations are not the final goal of human evolution.



No single idea has wrought so much misery as that delusive concept of sovereignty.

Sovereignty passed from king to nation; a political dogma, for soon the people
wielded sovereignty much as kings did.  Today millions are dying and millions more
will starve to the national idea of sovereignty.  Sovereignty reached its height in
the French Revolution, and its deathbed is this war.  Military victors have a chance
to resurrect it in a modified form.  May it be a democratic modification.

Enormous vested interests are involved in the worship of the Golden Calf of
sovereignty which results in economic dislocation.  What will be the effect upon our
returning soldiers?  National matters should be handled by national sovereignty and
international affairs be handled by international sovereignty.


Peace will become the watch care of international government.  When lawless
minorities learn that, then peace will prevail.  Appeasement and moral-compromise are
the habits of peace-loving and self-loving Nationalists.  The present conflict
resulted when nations wanted peace at any price.  The theory of Democracy validates
the concept of equality – but the idea of equality produces conflicts which only
courts can settle, unless the victors establish international overcontrol for those
lesser people who are hungry for freedom and self-government.

The dream of equality is fiction.  It is not nationally or individually true.  Such a
dream can only be realized before God or before a court.  Man acquires citizenship
equality before the law; before a supercourt all nations are equal.  You cannot have
equality among trends or creations within law; and law without the coercive power of
enforcement is a tragic farce.  Equality without law means war.  Without super-law
you can only have peace when the weaker submit to the stronger.

Any hope for world peace without coercive international law is a furtive dream.
Mandatory law is law enforced by unquestioned force.  Peace is the reign of law. Law
is the just use of force by unquestioned authority.  There cant be lasting peace
without force.  To make peace we must wage legal war.  There is a difference between
the outlaw who kills a man and the sheriff who kills the outlaw for his crime.  The
sheriff is not a murderer — he is a peace officer.

Non-intervention and appeasement are like the old monarchs’ “gentlemen's
agreements.”  Each agrees to let the other carry out his nefarious schemes.


War is the major factor in the non-spiritual history of the human race.  At the
present time the most advanced peoples look upon it as an unnecessary evil.  It is
the first time in history that world-wide peace had been talked of.  Wars have become
increasingly more terrible in the last 150 years, and for the last 100 years no
government has been able to get the full support of its people in a war policy.
Leaders start wars on the theory that they are going to be, or have been, attacked.
If the majority want to abolish war, why don't they do it?  If war is an expression
of human emotions like crime, it wont be abolished.  But civilized people have
abolished individual crime.  Another view: in the case of a criminal committing
murder you quickly distinguish between the criminal and the sheriff who shoots him.
Each from a biological viewpoint is guilty, but not from the social or moral
viewpoints.  There are two kinds of war: (1) social criminal aggression, (2) legal
group military sanctions.

An International Government can (a) reduce war to a minimum just as courts function
to minimize crime, (b) render war a legal action on the part of authorized groups for
the peace, safety and security of all mankind.  War can be and must be legalized,
minimized and humanized.  The use of poison gas, submarines and aerial bombing of
civilian populations can be prevented.  The International Police will be known as
Peace Armies.  You cannot maintain rules of warfare when armies are conscripted and
nations are fighting for sovereignty.  You cant have international law without
international power to enforce the law.

Disarmament on the part of the great nations such as the peace-loving people of the
United States is a direct contribution to war.  If the English-speaking peoples
remain intelligent and fully armed, they will constitute the Peace Army until the
regional and international courts can be established.  Equal quality of arms is a
delusion.  What mayor of a great city would allow criminals to carry guns?  Arm well
the police but prevent the criminal element from getting arms.  Long have
well-meaning but short-sighted pacifists proclaimed, “You cant have pace by waging
war.”  That is exactly what you can do, and will have to do for the next millennium.


Legal war is the act of the legal authority of the International Government – action
is response to law.  Legal war is designed to maintain peace, not to take loot or
seek revenge.  It is waged by order of the legal authority of International
Government for safe-guarding the peace of nations.  There are two kinds of fighting,
and any nation that fights an illegal war will fight a hopeless one.  The time has
come for nations to be governed by law and not by political ambitions, personal whims
and directives, rampant nationalism, fanatical dictators, or the delusion of
sovereignty.  Modern science has ended the day of the international frontiersman.
The forces of civilization have arrive on the international frontier.

The dogma of non-intervention is the most uncivilized and inconsistent ever held by
modern nations.  What would you think of a policeman who would refuse to help a
fellow officer who was engaged in a struggle with a thug?  And it is just such
strange and inhuman conduct on the part of America and other world powers which
enable unscrupulous dictators to become rulers in other parts of the world.
Non-intervention is the remnant of the “gentleman’s agreement” of the older rulers
which was just an agreement between monarchs not to interfere in each other's wars.


Today's advances in science, industry, commerce, communication, etc. render the dogma
of neutrality inconsistent.  This neutrality makes possible (1) inconsistency of
policies, (2) corrupt press, (3) fomenting of strikes, disorganization, disunity,
divide and conquer.


Six or eight years ago the American nation began to watch a European nation stop
making automobiles and turn to making airplanes, conscript its citizens, make over
its schools, ration its food, tax and limit incomes.  They were 2000 miles away so
American refused to be concerned; now we're doing those same things whether we like
it or not.  The world cant go on half free and half slave; it must be either all free
or all slave.  There are still thousands of Americans who don't see things as they
really are.  They long for the day when it will be over and they can return to their
old ways.  They are Isolationists at heart, ready to disarm and sink their navy
again.  They learned very little from the last world war wherein the naval disaster
(disarming) was far more costly that the loss of Pearl Harbor.


If one great nation allow treaties to be counted as scraps of paper, then all great
nations are invalidated.  Today if one goes off the gold standard, they all go off,
because each is so interdependent.  The world is so economically interdependent that
the price of commodities must be determined by the producer operating under the least
favorable conditions.  Which means, in competition, that the standard of living
starts on a downward spiral.  Tariffs tend to make barriers, but you pay a price for
them.  This downward spiral affects the standard of living, depth of culture, extent
of education, labor conditions, personal liberty, taxation, tariff, exports and
imports, defense policies and moral standards.  The nation living under the least
favorable condition and lowest cultural standard will become the determining
influence over all other peoples.

The only hope of the survival of the American standards of living is to share them as
far as possible with other people.  If one powerful nation is deficient in morality,
it costs us much more to keep ours up.  The nation that would selfishly save its own
high standards is destined to lose them. In any circumscribed area of the world it
will be discovered, in the long run, that the existing government will be compelled
to gravitate gradually down to the level of the lowest and most primitive that is
allowed to exist.  One criminal and inferior abroad in a community can corrupt a
score of well-meaning youths.  In self-defense the Democracies must export life,
liberty and the pursuit of happiness.


Whoever heard of neutrality between right and wrong?  How can you be neutral in the
struggle between good and evil?  In any ideological struggle neutrality is suicidal.
Neutrality means the enemy is free to pick you off one at a time. 
In local
government a sheriff, when hard-pressed by lawlessness, can deputize any number of
citizens, but such a plan wont work on a national scale.  Such results can only be
gotten by internationalism.

Honest men cannot have confidential dealing with rascals.  Honest nations keep their
word and live up to their treaties.  The honest administration does not make treaties
with a dishonest neighbor.  If war is to be outlawed, the farce of neutrality must
end.  It is immoral and cowardly for a group of law-abiding citizens to stand idly by
and see a fellow citizen being held up, beaten and robbed; and such moral
indifference is suicidal to a nation.  What can be said of Christian nations that
stand by complacently while the world gangsters strafe and plunder the civilized
world, murdering and starving little children?  May it never happen again!


The French Revolution reached the highest point in the struggle for personal liberty,
the American Revolution in the struggle for national independence.  A grave mistake
was made when the spirit of independence was concocted into a formula of
self-determination; and it was an American president who perpetrated this blunder
when only fifty years previously a Civil War was fought to prevent the right of
self-determination.  Little nations can have no more self-determination than each
state of the Union can have complete sovereignty.

Each state is sovereign in all matters of state but in national affairs the Federal
Government is sovereign, and you can only have peace predicated on law.  The idea of
every little nation having the right of self-determination only spells industrial
paralysis and social hell.  Internationalism is detrimental to national intrigue.

You cant postulate independence without encountering interdependence, and nine out of
ten nations cant have economic independence without enormously lowering their
standard of living. The Untied States and Russia – the two most powerful nations in
the world – are economically independent.  Humans are born wholly dependent.  Each
child seeks independence but he learns, as he grows older, that he is
interdependent.  The concept of complete independence is fallacious.  In life there
is dependence, independence and the intelligent interdependence.

The complete independence of self-determination which was accorded the small nations
after the first world war did not afford them security.  They were uneasy, suspicious
and tormented by feelings of insecurity.  Both individuals and nations must learn the
lessons of interdependence.  The attempt to complete economic independence leads to
over-production, disorderly distribution, unemployment, economic depression. Neither
a nation nor a small group of nations can hope to enjoy complete and independent
economic freedom.

In the spiritual world “no man liveth unto himself alone.”  Neither can a nation
continue to live to itself.  A state that strives for economic freedom will gravitate
certainly and swiftly to a totalitarian state.  Fascism and Nazism is the result of
striving for economic freedom – freedom without restraint, liberty without
compulsion.  Honesty in business and altruism in government pay high dividends.

We must relinquish national sovereignty and enter into international sovereignty.

Think how much states are free when they don't have to concern themselves with things
Federal.  So would nations be more free with an International Government to attend to
global affairs.  It will be too late to undertake it after the war is over.  Says the
Declaration of Independence: “Whenever any form of government becomes so destructive
of these ends – life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness – it is the right of the
people to alter, abolish or institute new government, laying its foundations on such
principles, and organizing its powers in such form as to them shall seem most likely
to effect their safety and happiness.”

Today the nations of the earth are most unsafe and most unhappy.  Nationalism is on
its deathbed.  Unlimited sovereignty is moribund.  The time has come for the birth of
Internationalism.  Let the sick nations follow the wise counsel of the fathers of
American independence.  Will you humble your nationalism enough to adopt a sane
internationalism?

Dictators proclaim “Might makes Right.”  Democracies believe Right is Might.  The
world is suffering from these errors or relative truths.  Spiritual causes cannot
employ physical force in their interests, but material causes depend on physical
force for their survival.  It is perfectly proper to found a church on the ideas of
the League of Nations of World War I.  When the League of Nations didn't apply force,
it committed suicide.  War is a legal reality.  When not used in the support of law,
it will be used in the contravention of law and against economic justice.  How silly
to let international gangsters and criminals dominate the world!


Diverse forces form the service of aggression and attach it to the law of justice.
Our slogan should be “Right predicated on Might.”  Educate zealous crusaders to toil
for the new order.  Democracy has too many apostles and not enough crusaders.  When
two nations are in trouble with each other, neither one can judge their aggressions.
That is the job of an International Court.  Aggression is good when directed against
injustice.  Hitler made his first aggression when he proclaimed, “Right is whatever
is in the interest of the German folk.”  That's the time we should have struck.

Judgment is the function of a group.

Democracy cannot be static.  Peace is dynamic.  When the law-abiding citizen is
static, then the outlaw is dynamic.  As we exist today we can only exist by waging
war – war that is waged in the interest of international law.  War can only be
prevented by the action of International Police ready to act instantly.  Failure to
provide for International Police provides for international banditry.  When the first
international military force moves against the first one who dares to go against
international law, then we'll have peace.

Democracies were used to seeing local gangsters committing crime, but were shocked to
see them at the heads of governments.  We dreaded law with force.  Now we have a
world with force without law.
« Last Edit: August 29, 2007, 11:35:02 am by Majeston » Report Spam   Logged

"melody has power a whole world to transform."
Forever, music will remain the universal language of men, angels, and spirits.
Harmony is the speech of Havona.

http://mercy.urantia.org/papers/paper44.html
Jake
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« Reply #22 on: August 08, 2007, 12:26:19 am »

Thank You, HereForNow,

My girlfriend, the love of my life, was a Jehovah's Witness until her late teens. As such I am learning to pick out those who have been influenced by them, however small, by the subtleties in their wording.

Having been so close to the "congregation", and not following it, says quite a few good things about your character.

Quote
Anton LaVey(sp) Wink was very honest about the nature of humans and to some extent I agreed with his hypothesis of life.
Speaking of the old "Black Pope" (LaVey), I think that he was very realistic about man in regards to his earthly traits. I also think that he was far more intelligent than most people give him credit for. 

My birthday also happens to coincide with the beginning of Walpurgisnacht. Smiley

Jake

I almost forgot, my perspective on evil:
http://atlantisonline.smfforfree2.com/index.php/topic,4.15.html
« Last Edit: August 08, 2007, 01:21:32 am by Jake » Report Spam   Logged
Jake
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« Reply #23 on: August 08, 2007, 01:15:06 am »

Quote
...Today there is
little Democracy to defend, and we can build a new world order from the ground up...
Quote
...Freedom is fostered by human liberalism and
Christianity...
Quote
...Not in centuries has the Christian world had the opportunity to establish regional
internationalism...
Quote
...The idea of
every little nation having the right of self-determination only spells industrial
paralysis and social hell...
Quote
We must relinquish national sovereignty and enter into international sovereignty...

If you keep up with these key words, in diatribes such as this, the "Faith Based Initiative" money will be rolling in, to the Midwayers, for sure. Wink

Unfortunately when was this written? My research says 1943. A funny thing happened that year. The entrance of the United States into the largest loss of human life in recorded history, WWII.

Does the fight against "evil" have the capacity to turn into "evil" itself? I firmly believe that it does. At what point does a "moral responsibility" turn into a crusade?

Jake
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HereForNow
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HUH?


« Reply #24 on: August 12, 2007, 01:43:12 am »

As I've once said in the past, the greatest change in the world starts with yourself.

If everyone decided to no longer commit a certain sin we'll say. That would be one more win against evil, without a singal shot fired.
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Volitzer
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« Reply #25 on: August 12, 2007, 01:48:46 am »

   Lips sealed
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rockessence
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Using rocks and minerals to heal the earth and us.


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« Reply #26 on: August 12, 2007, 10:48:40 am »

Heref.

Too true!  The intention is for us to correct OURSELVES at all times....
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ILLIGITIMI NON CARBORUNDUM

Thus ye may find in thy mental and spiritual self, ye can make thyself just as happy or just as miserable as ye like. How miserable do ye want to be?......For you GROW to heaven, you don't GO to heaven. It is within thine own conscience that ye grow there.

Edgar Cayce
HereForNow
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HUH?


« Reply #27 on: August 14, 2007, 08:43:24 pm »

Free will, simply means to choose between good and evil. Every choice we make has a cause and effect.
Ultimately, you must right your wrong eventually and then you will reap what you sow.

How do you all chose?  Wink
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Andrew Waters
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« Reply #28 on: August 15, 2007, 12:12:36 am »



Rockessence wrote:
''Too true!  The intention is for us to correct OURSELVES at all times.''


How can this be true if the intent is good or evil? Is this saying some are evil and some are good? Is so then there is no need for intent. Some have it others don't.
Yet if we all have ''equal'' dispensation of good and evil for rockessence's ''intention to correct ourselves'', then there can be no winners in this game because once you think you've won the intent then what about the next time around when you lose the intent game... and sooner or later you will. So rather than say the intention is for us to correct ourselves and, presumably God wants this, then the error isn't the human species. It isn't correctable; not  enough to make it work.
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HereForNow
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HUH?


« Reply #29 on: August 15, 2007, 12:38:52 am »

 Smiley Hmmm. Interesting point. Yet, It's up to us nonetheless to decide on how were going to handle anything. It's up to God to decide if that decision is Good or Evil.
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