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Atlantis: The Land Beyond The Pillars

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BlueHue
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« Reply #15 on: May 22, 2009, 07:47:02 am »

Hello Qoais,

Sorry for not responding earlier.

[." [/size](Critias)

-Doug
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( Blue's)THEORY, locating"original" Atlantis( in Aden-Yemen.)
1: ATLANTIS =Fake=Latin name, original Greek: ATHE(=a Region in Aden)
2: Atlantic-OCEAN=Greek: RIVER-of-Atlas+also" Known "World-OCEAN(=Red-Sea)
3: Greek-obsolete-Numeral 'X' caused Plato's Atlantisdate:9000=900
Doug Fisher
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« Reply #16 on: May 23, 2009, 07:33:21 pm »

Hi Qoais,

Because of their greatness??? many things were BROUGHT to them.  Sounds to me like someone was kissing butt bringing many things.  Not them going out and bringing themselves things.  If they were bringing stuff to themselves I think the wording would have been different.  The least way of expressing it would be to say because of their numerous ships, they brought many things from foreign countries.  Brought - to me - means that others are doing the bringing.  And to predicate the sentence with "because of their greatness" makes one to understand that these foreign countries did the bringing to keep on the good side.

The translation does seem to be pushing the idea that foreign countries were trying to gain favor with a very powerful Atlantis and such an interpretation is very possible, but I was attempting to allow for the fuller context of the passage which begins,
Quote
“And he named them all; the eldest, who was the first king, he named Atlas and after him the whole island and the ocean were called Atlantic. All these and their descendants for many generations were the inhabitants and rulers of divers islands in the open sea; they held sway in our direction over the country within the Pillars as far as Egypt and Tyrrhenia."

So it seems plausible that in describing the extent to which the people of Atlantis had spread to islands of the sea and the Mediterranean, this passage was originally explaining that Atlantis used these far-reaching agents to bring supplies from countries like those inside the Pillars of Hercules which lacked oceangoing vessels. This interpretation allows for the contextual contrast, "bringing many things from foreign countries" versus "the island itself provided most of what was required."

This seems to fall in line with Desmond Lee's translation:
Quote
"They and their descendants for many generations governed their own territories and many other islands in the ocean and, as has already been said, also controlled the populations this side of the straits as far as Egypt and Tyrrhenia. Atlas had a long and distinguished line of descendants, eldest son succeeding eldest son and maintaining the succession unbroken for many generations; their wealth was greater than that possessed by any previous dynasty of kings or likely to be accumulated by any later, and both in the city and countryside they were provided with everything they could require. Because of the extent of their power they received many imports, but for most of their needs the island itself provided."


However, as I've said in a couple of other threads, I'm thinking Plato is having a bit of a laugh up his sleeve so to speak, because those three walls covered in metal would be a super conductor of electricity, and with the water running along side, the whole place would be "live" in the first lightning storm.  They would have had to ground those walls somehow.  Perhaps the metal itself ran down the wall past the earth line.

Maybe you're onto something there; Plato was describing a supercollider. Smiley

Doubtless there is a bit of embellishment going on in Plato's account and the excessive wall plating seems to fall in that category. If Atlantis existed perhaps we should expect to find such plating around the gates of each wall at best.

-Doug
« Last Edit: May 23, 2009, 10:19:39 pm by Doug Fisher » Report Spam   Logged

BlueHue
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« Reply #17 on: May 24, 2009, 05:20:52 am »

DOUGH,

NO atlantologist knows what PILLARS are in Hindu language: White Arabian Elephants ! not put-up :STELLAE  Herculii

I say in my SUB- Script,  that Atlantis was not an Oceanic Isle so there were NO " Other Sea-Isles " to spread to
but you chose to ignore my Subscript.  So I have to inform you  -separately- of this fact:

Atlantic-Ocean is a mis-translation it was originally named the MIDDLE - SEA surrounding the MIDDLE - World(= Oikumenos.) NOT thye whole World !
But ALL atlantologists failed to spot that distinction.
Atlantis was situated on the Shore of this MIDDLE - SEA

Atlantis was located on the Middle of that MIDDLE - Sea where a bent was dividing the MIDDLE - Sea in the Middle.
Ofcours PLATO said it more eloquently:

Atlantis was opposite the ISLE in the Mouth of the Western-Sea/ Ocean where the PILLARS stood in the Land of the Hyperboreans.
There is NO atlantologist who knows NEITHER the Location of that Oceanic Mouth( connecting a SEA+corridor= Pelagous) with an Ocean !
And when I tell them They don't believe me they want Proof and don't execpt my reckoned proof as proof !

So you'ld understand that the LATIN- Compilers that translated the original Greek Text would get crazy of the word Middle repeating itselve in the Greek text so they did what they were hired for to do, they COMPILED the original Longer Greek sentence into a shorter Latin one !

So instead of Atlantis beiing in the middle bent of the western World Sea they re-wrote Atlanis was an Isle sitting in the middle of the Sea/ Ocean !

The Greek word for ISLE is NESSOS, but PELAGOUS is a SEA- Brance SHORE,
which the Latin Compilers changed into PELAGUSwhich means Isle-realm and is a WRONG  translation.
" ISLE  REALM for a Large nation seems logical so thiswrong translation became a cherished falsh tradiion !

Now 'BIANCA' says she doesn't believe it untill I "prove"  it ! ( i JUST DID i THOUGHT ")and all the "other theorists" have FAILED TO SPOT THIS, BUT JUST IGNORE IT !  ( I don't mind beiing named a" TROLL " but I hope ' BIANCA' will remember her " true " words when my Blue's- Theory is vindicated-- Cry Shocked Cry

So much for Atlantology inquisiveness ! Ignoring the Truth because of the 1.000 would be antologists only RICH, Atalante and GEORGEOS have an inkling of Greek & Latin ! The others have a big hole in their cartographic knowledge on Atlantis and by denying my discovery simply profess their ignorance on ancient cartography  ' BIANCQA " got mad the otherf day when I told her that Columbus gave arabic names to America because if it was NOT in his way he would have landed on the coast of South ARABY which he named India nova !Thinking until 1500 ad that America was ARABY( NOT india )

SO the atlantologists ( who unlike CAYCE & DONNELLY,  )  are ignorant in both Greek and Latin, think that they have " scrutinized " the english translation of 1925, of Plato's (- corrupted - !)Atlantis " TEXTUS - RECEPTUS " and continue happilly to bark up a wrong tree ! and don't like to be told a story different from the ( Falsh-)MAIN Stream

Still It helps me to avoid infringements on my Copy-Right !

Sincerely " Blue - Hue "  24 May --2009
« Last Edit: May 24, 2009, 05:40:21 am by BlueHue » Report Spam   Logged

( Blue's)THEORY, locating"original" Atlantis( in Aden-Yemen.)
1: ATLANTIS =Fake=Latin name, original Greek: ATHE(=a Region in Aden)
2: Atlantic-OCEAN=Greek: RIVER-of-Atlas+also" Known "World-OCEAN(=Red-Sea)
3: Greek-obsolete-Numeral 'X' caused Plato's Atlantisdate:9000=900
Doug Fisher
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« Reply #18 on: June 20, 2009, 06:13:40 pm »

For those interested and having Google Earth installed, the following link displays the rings of Atlantis scaled to the circular landform in the Parana Delta.

Rings of Atlantis on Google Earth

The outermost ring represents Atlantis' outer channel of water with an outside diameter of 3.10 miles (27 stadia) and inside diameter of 2.41 miles (21 stadia). You can use the program's ruler feature (Tools>Ruler) to verify the diameters.

Select Historical Imagery from the menu (View>Historical Imagery) to get a clearer view of the island from 2003. There you will see some unique darkened areas mostly retained within the southern portion of the central ring. One of these dark patches conforms to the only manmade building dimensioned in Plato's account, one believed to be located on the small central island. In the image below a rectangular outline approximately 606 feet (1 stadium) by 303 feet (1/2 stadium) conforming to Poseidon's temple has been placed over this dark shaded area.



Are these dark patches signs of the surface soil being affected by buried structures such as the temple and palaces? There is likely another very simple explanation for these patches, but feel free to use the Google Earth link to examine the island for signs of ancient structures or excavation. You can also use the ruler feature to confirm the 10,000 stadia (1,150 mile) perimeter of the rectangular Mesopotamian Plain located off to the northwest.

-Doug
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Damien Woodruff
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« Reply #19 on: June 22, 2009, 01:35:27 am »

Hello Doug,

Google Earth is a notoriously unreliable source for satellite imagery.  A few months back, we thought we spotted city grids in the eastern part of the Atlantic.  They turned out to be mapping lines (or so they claimed).

Where do you place Atlantis at again?
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Qoais
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« Reply #20 on: June 22, 2009, 09:53:44 am »

Some co-ordinates would be nice.
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An open-minded view of the past allows for an unprejudiced glimpse into the future.

Logic rules.

"Intellectual brilliance is no guarantee against being dead wrong."
Doug Fisher
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« Reply #21 on: June 22, 2009, 09:40:34 pm »

Hello Doug,

Google Earth is a notoriously unreliable source for satellite imagery.  A few months back, we thought we spotted city grids in the eastern part of the Atlantic.  They turned out to be mapping lines (or so they claimed).


Hello Damien,

I'm not relying on Google Earth alone and definitely not artifacts from seafloor scans as in the case you are referring to.

Where do you place Atlantis at again?

I am proposing that South America is the continent of Atlantis with the new twist being that Argentina's Mesopotamian Plain is likely the plain of Plato's dialogues. Atlantis' plain is described as a rectangle defined by the waterways flowing around it, forming a 10,000-stadia (1,150-mile) perimeter.

The Mesopotamian Plain is the world's largest rectangular plain defined by waterways on all four sides, and in fact you won't find another even half its size. The Parana and Uruguay Rivers enclose the plain with a perimeter very close to Plato's specified 10,000-stadia and the plain is also positioned in the center of the continent with its narrow width extending from the coast inward, again per Plato's specifications. And finally, the plain is also surrounded by mountains on three sides, but open toward the south and located within 14.5 miles of the sea, again conforming to Plato's specs.

These are all specifications which you can verify with a good map or Google Earth. If you have Google Earth installed select the following link and open the kmz file. It will whisk you away directly to the Mesopotamian Plain where I have placed an overlay to help highlight it and the surrounding waterways:

http://www.atlantismaps.com/Mesopotamia.kmz

(Trust me this is very cool and a great tool others here may wish to employ.)

Also there is only one circular landform in the Parana Delta and not only is it located almost precisely where Plato places Atlantis' circular city, but it also has a diameter that is spot on as well.

Some co-ordinates would be nice.

As you wish. Here are the coordinates for the site of the circular capital city linked to Google Maps:



Here is a link to the site on Google Earth with rings overlain:

http://www.atlantismaps.com/AtlantisRings.kmz


-Doug

« Last Edit: June 22, 2009, 09:41:47 pm by Doug Fisher » Report Spam   Logged

Qoais
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« Reply #22 on: June 22, 2009, 11:20:53 pm »

Isn't that plain supposed to be underwater?  If the capital which was built on the mountain not very high, sunk, then the plain, which was lower (since the mountain not very high stuck up in the middle of it) would also be under water.  And how do you figure that this fits with the statment, that the way was blocked by mud for voyagers?  And how do the Egyptians supposedly know about this place?  Is it written in their history somewhere that they traded with folks from that far away and where is the proof of ships travelling that distance?  On a regular basis too because Plato said their harbours were filled with triremes, and that goods were brought to her from other countries.  What other countries?
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An open-minded view of the past allows for an unprejudiced glimpse into the future.

Logic rules.

"Intellectual brilliance is no guarantee against being dead wrong."
Atlantica Reuterskiold
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« Reply #23 on: June 23, 2009, 12:44:06 am »

Doug, your proposasl sounds interesting to me.  There are even proofs that trade existed between the new world and the old.

Qoais does raise some good points, though, namely:

Where's the mud?
The mud from the subsidence of the island was also supposed to affect Greek ships.  Clearly, it couldn't do that if the sinking occurred all the way in South America.

I think we are looking for an actual island, closer to the Pillars.  Everything else makes a good points, save for these two sticking points.
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Doug Fisher
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« Reply #24 on: June 23, 2009, 01:28:08 am »

Isn't that plain supposed to be underwater?  If the capital which was built on the mountain not very high, sunk, then the plain, which was lower (since the mountain not very high stuck up in the middle of it) would also be under water. And how do you figure that this fits with the statment, that the way was blocked by mud for voyagers?

Hello Qoais,

It seems more realistic to interpret the account as placing the capital just beyond the plain instead of its center. According to Plato it was "near the plain again, and also in the centre of the island at a distance of about fifty stadia (5.7 miles from the plain which conforms to the circular landform in the Parana Delta). Plato also records that the plain's surrounding waterways "received the streams which came down from the mountains and after circling round the plain, and coming towards the city on this side and on that, it discharged them thereabouts into the sea." This also conforms to both the Parana and Uruguay Rivers which ultimately empty into the sea near the circular landform.

As for being underwater, there's quite a bit more detail on my site about the actual demise befalling Atlantis, but suffice it to say that Solon's world view would not allow another continent to exist within Oceanus. Therefore, when the Egyptian account described an island sinking into the sea Solon would have been forced to apply this to the whole of the island continent.

However, the location of an island in a delta would accommodate the destruction described. The soil in a delta would be extremely susceptible to liquefaction during a quake, possibly explaining why the Athenian warriors are described as having "sank into the earth" as opposed to having sunk into the sea. Prolonged liquefaction and possibly tsunamis would have seen the island and most of the delta eventually subside beneath the sea.

Regarding the mud that blocked passage, "The island of Atlantis in like manner disappeared in the depths of the sea. For which reason the sea in those parts is impassable and impenetrable, there is a shoal of mud in the way" If we allow that it was Atlantis' city isle which sank then it makes perfect sense "Atlantis' island city in like manner disappeared in the depths of the sea. For which reason the sea in those parts is impassable and impenetrable, there is a shoal of mud in the way".

And how do the Egyptians supposedly know about this place?  Is it written in their history somewhere that they traded with folks from that far away and where is the proof of ships travelling that distance?  On a regular basis too because Plato said their harbours were filled with triremes, and that goods were brought to her from other countries.  What other countries?

I attempted to address this earlier. According to Solon, Atlantis peopled many of the islands in the Atlantic and the Mediterranean and these likely acted as agents in behalf of Atlantis and peoples within the Mediterranean. How did the Egyptians know that it was possible to sail around Africa and be below the equator? How did Solomon import much of his gold and other goods? Both employed Phoenician's to man fleets and the voyages they undertook lasted three years. The Egyptian trip around Africa would have been roughly 15,000 miles. A round trip from Egypt in the Mediterranean to the Mesopotamian Plain of South America and back is also about 15,000 miles so the Phoenicians were obviously capable of making the trip.

Keep in mind that I definitely do not believe Atlantis was still around at the time of King Solomon, but neither do I believe it met its demise over 11,000 years ago and I believe Plato's account actually contains clues which point to a much later period... but that's another chapter, which I will be submitting to my website at a later date.

-Doug
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Qoais
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« Reply #25 on: June 23, 2009, 10:42:23 am »

G'Day
Quote
Although the account relates that "all your warlike men in a body sank into the earth" this would seem to be with the exception of those few that survived to tell the tale. The survivors of this terrible cataclysm might well have been aboard an Athenian vessel sitting beyond the delta, being able to witness much of the devastation and carnage with little to no harm befalling themselves. From this vantage point the crew may have discerned that the great island city had receded into the earth, while the channel leading to the city having become barricaded with mud was likely strewn with partially buried ships and the bodies of combatants from both sides of the conflict.

With the realization that the great city had come to its climatic end as tsunami waves completely washed over the delta, the intrepid crew would have reversed course back to the Mediterranean where their story would eventually reach and be recorded by the Egyptians. But regardless of the wide-ranging emotions that accompanied them on their long journey home, emotions would soon transition to overwhelming grief and horror with the realization that their homeland had not been spared. The catastrophic devastation that befell Atlantis would prove to be only a portion of a much, much larger global cataclysm.


Let's see if I've got this figured out as to what you say.

First of all, you're saying that regular trade occurred between Atlantis and .....who?  The Athenians, the Egyptians, the Sea Peoples, the Phoenicians?  Because Plato does say that the Atlanteans had control of Europe to Italy (Tyrennia) and of Libya to Egypt.  Therefore, can we assume that this is not a big secret and that people knew they were trading with someone out in the Atlantic?  Also, it wasn't a secret because we have a war with the Atlanteans to account for, and yet no one else seems to know of it.  To me, what you're saying and what Plato said, are pretty different. 

If the Atlanteans had such control over the Med. areas, then people knew of them.  If they were having a war with all of the Eastern Med. people would have known of it.  Nothing else seems to have been written of this.

Although science is setting the time line farther and farther back in history for humans to have developed stuff, so far, there does not seem to be any proof that there were ocean going vessels - especially on a regular basis - 11,000 years ago.  Not to say it was impossible, but to sail the ocean on a regular basis in a reed boat even, would take some daring do.!


You're saying that the Egyptians heard the tale of Atlantis sinking from Atlantean men on board an Athenian vessel.  Are you saying then that the battle took place at Atlantis?  That the Athenian warriors were fighting in S. America?  That the Atlantean men were prisoners of the Athenians who then took them back to Greece - or dropped them off in Egypt?  That Athens did have ocean going ships that far back?

So what lost them the war?  Their homeland sinking?  Then what about all the people who were in the colonies along the Med.?  Would they not have written about their homeland and their history?  If they were trying to take over the rest of the known world - basically the Eastern end of the Med., then when they lost the war, wouldn't the other nations, like Greece and Egypt, turn and attack the colonies that were in control of the Western end of the Med.?  If that were the case, surely there would be something written about this as well.  Unless of course, that IS what is being written about. 

I've said it so often - that Plato goes back and forth in time - perhaps it is that the Atlanteans who had ORIGINALLY come from outside the pillars BEFORE their home sunk - were trying to take over the Eastern end of the Med.  Meaning that by this time, there was no more Atlantis (but in an aside it is mentioned that the homeland sunk) and in the end, when this war was supposedly happening with Athens, again nauture had her way and even tho they supposedly won, the Athenians fighting the Atlanteans were destroyed by a cataclysm, just like Atlantis had been in the past. (Which means the war wasn't in S. America then) But even so.  IF the Atlanteans had colonized the Western end of the Med., a long time in the past, wouldn't there have been a history for them say in Italy, say in Morocco, say in Spain, say in Libya?  Somewhere?  Other than just Egypt.?  Because altho Athens had horrible weather for saving stuff, Egypt didn't.  Put it this way.  ARFRICA didn't.  Neither did Spain.  All these place I've mentioned should have had some kind of information regarding the history of their people.  Namely the Atlanteans.

Is this as clear as mud?
« Last Edit: June 23, 2009, 10:47:30 am by Qoais » Report Spam   Logged

An open-minded view of the past allows for an unprejudiced glimpse into the future.

Logic rules.

"Intellectual brilliance is no guarantee against being dead wrong."
Doug Fisher
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« Reply #26 on: June 24, 2009, 12:39:40 am »

Qoais,

The fact is that South America with its Mesopotamian Plain is by far the closest match to Plato’s geographical specifications and is perhaps too similar to be coincidence. And what I am actually saying is IF South America does somehow prove to be Atlantis, then we will have to allow that other aspects of the Atlantis account may be historical fact as well regardless if the Egyptians maintained the story on nonextant papyrus scrolls, with Plato being one of the last to have a written copy.

Reconciling the account with South America as Atlantis, as with any other site, requires a great deal of speculation and will be at odds with the accepted view of history. As I said before, I do not think the war occurred as far back as reported and based on the account of the Trojan war the Greeks were competent sailors around the 13th century BC; sailing ships holding 50 to 120 crew members. Discovery of Troy in the 19th century helped buoy this belief. Discovering Atlantis in South America may support a bit earlier date allowing that identifiable Greek artifacts are unearthed. Besides if at that point we are forced to accept the improbable idea that a people outside of the Mediterranean had a fleet of oceangoing ships navigating the Mediterranean and much of the Atlantic, it's not much of stretch to accept some similar capabilities for Greece in the same time period.

-Doug
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