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Atlantis: The Land Beyond The Pillars

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Doug Fisher
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« on: May 16, 2009, 05:59:35 pm »

Hello all,

I have written an article, Atlantis: The Land Beyond The Pillars, which proposes a new theory based solely on Plato's geographical specifications for Atlantis. Plato set forth a complex and very specific array of geographical features comprising alignments, relative positioning and dimensions, which limits the site for Atlantis to only one possible location: South America and Argentina's Mesopotamian Plain.



Not only is Argentina's Mesopotamian Plain the only sizable rectangular plain in the world defined by waterways on all four sides, which is in accordance with Plato's description, its perimeter is only 50 miles off of Plato's stated 1,150-miles, or 10,000 stadia. Further, the plain lies in the center of the continent, is oriented with its narrower width extending from the coast inland, is surrounded by mountains on three sides, but open toward the south, and lies within 14.5 miles of the sea, all per Plato's specifications.

Here's a more complete list of geographical specifications this theory meets which can also be found on my website along with much more detail and further insights:
  • A continent sized island (South American 'nesos')
  • Opposite the Pillars of Hercules (The Strait of Gibraltar) and
  • Located in the Atlantic Ocean with
  • Associated islands (the Caribbean Islands)
  • Forming a distinct path to a continent (North America) at the opposite end.
  • Having a lofty precipitous coastline (South America's Brazilian Highlands) transitioning to
  • A flat even rectangular plain (Argentina's Mesopotamian Plain)
  • Located at the center of the island (center of South American 'nesos')
  • Within 14.5-miles of the sea that is
  • Delineated on all four sides by channels of water (the Parana and Uruguay rivers) with
  • A perimeter of approximately 10,000 stadia (10,455 stadia or 1,200 miles actual. Only 50 miles longer than the specified 10,000 stadia or 1,150 miles.) and
  • Oriented with its narrower width extending from the coast inland, and also having
  • A climate conducive to biannual harvests.
  • Pocketed in by mountains to the west (Andes), north, and east (Brazilian Highlands), but open toward the sea in the south with
  • River ways from the surrounding mountain ranges feeding the rivers that flow around the plain, converge, and then empty into the sea in the south. (Rio Pilcomayo, Rio Bermejo, Rio Salado and Rio Dulce flowing down from the Andes in the west. The Parana and Uruguay Rivers dropping down onto the plain from the Brazilian Highlands in the north and the Rio Ibicui, Rio Arapey Grande, and Rio Queguay sourced from smaller mountains in the east, to name just a few.)

-Doug
« Last Edit: May 16, 2009, 09:42:50 pm by Doug Fisher » Report Spam   Logged

Morrison
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« Reply #1 on: May 17, 2009, 12:28:05 am »

Hi Doug, and welcome to the forum. I couldn't agree more! In fact, my own research parrallels yours and it seems both were preceded by Jim Allen, the best modern day proponent on the theory.

Here is a link to my work and his:

http://atlantisonline.smfforfree2.com/index.php/topic,60.0.html

Have you got a space for the capital city yet?
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Doug Fisher
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« Reply #2 on: May 17, 2009, 01:58:14 am »

Hello Morrison,

Regarding the capital city, in the Parana Delta there is a unique circular landform located at the city's specified 7.25 miles between the plain and the sea which also happens to have a diameter matching Plato's specifications. From the linked article:


  • Figure 15 - Lines A, B, and C represent 14.5-mile channels extending between the plain and the sea
    with a center point at 7.25 miles representing the center point of the island city. Lines A and C
    represent extreme channel placements where the island city would lie closest to the Parana and
    the confluence of the Parana and Uruguay rivers.  Line B aligns the channel so that the center
    point is equidistant from the Mesopotamian plain and the sea. Multiple other channel placements
    would find the city's center located between these three points along or near arc ABC. Equidistant
    point B mysteriously sits atop a circular landform while line B itself lies near channels of similar
    overall length leading from the plain to the sea.




  • Figure 16 - Satellite image of the circular landform in the Parana Delta (top). Same image (below)
    with a 2.50-mile dimension set with  Google Earth™ to establish scale. The yellow overlain
    rings conform to the concentric rings of Atlantis and have been scaled to the image. While
    the circular landform does not appear to have any demarcations suggesting the existence of
    inner zones, the outside diameter of Atlantis’ outermost land zone at 2.41 miles (21 stadia) is
    an extraordinarily close match with this Parana Delta landform. The waterway surrounding the
    landform also conforms closely to Atlantis’ outer zone of water, which was to have had an
    outside diameter of 3.10 miles (27 stadia).

The delta location would be susceptible to liquefaction during a quake, which could explain why the warlike men are described as having "sank into the earth" and not the sea.

Quote
There occurred violent earthquakes and floods; in a single day and night of misfortune all your warlike men in a body sank into the earth, and the island of Atlantis in like manner disappeared in the depths of the sea. - (Timaeus)

-Doug
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Qoais
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« Reply #3 on: May 17, 2009, 09:40:48 am »

Hi Guys
Morrison I might have asked you this before, but remember when Plato talked about the harbour being full of ships and how all the other countries sent goods to Atlantis?  In this scenario, where would be all these other countries that were doing trade with Atlantis?
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Logic rules.

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Tina Walter
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« Reply #4 on: May 18, 2009, 07:23:12 am »

That's a major drawback of the South American theory, Qoais.  Plato describes a 5 1/2 mile channel from the ocean to the capital city and there is no such waterway leading from the Atlantic to any of the proposes Atlantis capitals in South America. 

Jim Allen, for instance, proposes the capital to be near the Atiplano, and yes, the Amazon eventually leads there, but only after a hundred mile trek.
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Doug Fisher
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« Reply #5 on: May 18, 2009, 07:38:02 pm »

That's a major drawback of the South American theory, Qoais.  Plato describes a 5 1/2 mile channel from the ocean to the capital city and there is no such waterway leading from the Atlantic to any of the proposes Atlantis capitals in South America. 

Jim Allen, for instance, proposes the capital to be near the Atiplano, and yes, the Amazon eventually leads there, but only after a hundred mile trek.

Hi Tina,

This thread pertains to a new theory which does place the circular city at 5 1/2 miles from the sea (see Figures 15 and 16 above).

I am not supporting the Atliplano claim, but introducing a new plain, Argentina's Mesopotamian Plain. You will find that it is a 10,000-stadia rectangular plain defined on all sides by waterways per Plato's description. Also check the list of specifications it meets in the original post.

I would very much like to have your opinion on this new site and critique where it falls short of Plato's geographical specifications.

Thanks,
Doug
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Qoais
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« Reply #6 on: May 18, 2009, 10:32:35 pm »

But WHO were all these other countries doing trade with her? that filled her harbours with "Triremes"? that brougt all kinds of goods to her?
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Mario Dantas
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« Reply #7 on: May 19, 2009, 10:47:25 am »




Dear Doug Fisher,

Indeed the two maps are very similar! South America, as portrayed by Ortelius (in relation to Kircher's map), is more identical than anything... i have read your well explained theory on your site and can only congratulate you for the fine work accomplished.

Nevertheless, there are a few questions on my mind that i would like to ask:


- How do you explain the passage in Critias relating to the region of Gades within a South American Atlantis "universe"?
Quote
To his twin brother, who was born after him, and obtained as his lot the extremity of the island towards the Pillars of Heracles, facing the country which is now called the region of Gades in that part of the world, he gave the name which in the Hellenic language is Eumelus, in the language of the country which is named after him, Gadeirus


- How do you explain (from a "motionless" point of view) the fact that North America is in fact in front of Gibraltar and not the South American Continent?


Quote
But all the preceding points are only valid if we overlook one very glaring issue: South America is not actually an island.

- On the contrary, in my opinion, the huge distance between South America and the Mediterrenean is perhaps the most obvious element against your theory, how could such long distance be feasible from a Mediterrenean or anywhere else location? (it took me a week to travel from Lisbon to Cape Verde nonstop on a cargo ship)
Quote
For because of the greatness of their empire many things were brought to them from foreign countries,



- How do you explain the non existence of elephants in South America?

- Do you know why is there another Ortelius map with considerable differences regarding South America's shape?
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6f/OrteliusWorldMap.jpeg


Although i have different ideas, i once more reiterate my astonishment concerning your theory, it really has a strong verisimilitude with Plato's Atlantis, even disregarding Kircher's map !!!

Regards,
Mario Dantas
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Doug Fisher
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« Reply #8 on: May 20, 2009, 01:11:19 am »

Hi Mario,

Thanks for the positive feedback.

Quote
- How do you explain the passage in Critias relating to the region of Gades within a South American Atlantis "universe"?
- How do you explain (from a "motionless" point of view) the fact that North America is in fact in front of Gibraltar and not the South American Continent?

I did attempt to meet as many of Plato's, or more accurately, Solon's specifications as was possible, especially those that would appear to be more reliable. For example, specifications pertaining to the geography of Atlantis—specific measurements of the plain, its central placement on the island, and the arrangement of the surrounding mountains—these are aspects of the island that Solon would have had to take at face value and pass along virtually verbatim. Having no previous knowledge of Atlantis he would have had to trust his Egyptian source and therefore these details would have been passed along intact and proven fairly reliable.

The island's position in relation to the Pillars of Hercules and the Mediterranean is a slightly different matter as its placement had to fit within the limits of Solon's preconceived view of the world, and these details may not prove too reliable considering that this was how Solon apparently envisioned the world:



Here’s an example that should help better illustrate this point:
  • You're renting a small cabin with a very small fenced-in yard in the back and a reliable neighbor calls to inform you that there is an elephant in your backyard. He also tells you that it's 12-feet tall, weighs about 10 tons and has only one tusk.

    You call animal control to report the intruder and trusting your neighbor you report it as 12-feet tall, 10-tons and missing one tusk. This portion is relayed accurately as you have to rely solely on your neighbor's description since you are obviously too horrified to look outside.

    Animal control then asks its location and knowing the size of your very small yard you hysterically reply that he is just outside your back door. The only problem is, you're renting the cabin and do not realize that the property actually extends well beyond the fenced-in area. Your preconception of the backyard causes you to erroneously relate the elephant’s location.

Likewise, if the above image represented your view of the world—a centralized island composed of Europe, Asia and Africa completely surrounded by Oceanus which in turn is surrounded by a ring of mountains—and someone informed you that there was an island the size of Asia and Africa combined located west of the Mediterranean, this limited world view would likely leave you locating Atlantis, or a good portion of it, directly in front of the Pillars of Hercules much as Solon apparently did.

Quote
- On the contrary, in my opinion, the huge distance between South America and the Mediterrenean is perhaps the most obvious element against your theory, how could such long distance be feasible from a Mediterrenean or anywhere else location? (it took me a week to travel from Lisbon to Cape Verde nonstop on a cargo ship)

"For because of the greatness of their empire many things were brought to them from foreign countries."

Consider the great distances sailed for the spice trade. Those trips were a bit longer than a week and a voyage from the Mediterranean to South America is a relatively short distance to travel for riches when compared to traveling from the Mediterranean to the Moluccas Islands in the Pacific.

Quote
- How do you explain the non existence of elephants in South America?

Do we have to accept all portions of the account as fact, or is it possible to consider that some portions may have been slightly embellished:

Quote
Zeus, the god of gods, who rules according to law, and is able to see into such things, perceiving that an honourable race was in a woeful plight, and wanting to inflict punishment on them, that they might be chastened and improve, collected all the gods into their most holy habitation, which, being placed in the centre of the world, beholds all created things. And when he had called them together, he spake as follows.....(Critias)

Best regards,
Doug
« Last Edit: June 20, 2009, 06:15:32 pm by Doug Fisher » Report Spam   Logged

Mario Dantas
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« Reply #9 on: May 20, 2009, 11:42:23 am »



Dear Doug Fisher,

I wonder if you have given any thought to the fact that South America seem to have been linked to New Zealand and Australia... In my theory i propose that after Pangaea break-up Africa and the South American Continents were distantly separated and suddenly got together again when the event of Atlantis sinking occurred (Drake Passage (South Argentina) could be the proof of a violent "near collision" with an asteroid or small Planet although it is believed to have happened 41 millions of years)



I guess you (as well as Morrison or Jim Allen) could be right about Atlantis being South America. Solon could have made mistakes (as i believe he did) when transcribing the tale firstly heard through priest Sonchis. I believe some of the aspects of the tale, since they pertain to mythology and, furthermore, being incomplete, are indeed difficult or maybe impossible to be proven in reality.

One has to believe also that the general research towards the finding of Atlantis is more important than our own single investigations and that there will be (supposedly) only one correct answer among several others, as painful as it might be...

Our understanding of Atlantis has to coexist with many "theories" about Plato's tale as they are true possibilities.


regards,
Mario Dantas



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« Reply #10 on: May 20, 2009, 11:55:40 am »

Dear  DOUGH  FISHER,

MARVELLOUS GRAPHICS ! but would you care to comment on my Blue Lined Subscript?

I already told MARIO that Atlantis was never near the Americas.
I am sorry to be a SPELL- BREAKER but Atlantis near or in America is a HOAX
Perpetrated by Spanish King FERDINANDO-1 for political reasons.

Columbus WAS looking for Atlantis the fabled(= Hebrew/ Hyperborean) Land to get the Jews away from dear Isabella's " Hermandad "
But IF America had not unexcextedly been afoot/ in the way Columbus would have landed on ARABY and later INDIA
Why do you suppose that he gave Arab names to the Carribean Sea shores ?

Besides I appologizes for beiing a SPOIL-SPORT, but
in PLATO's days; araby was teh KNOWN WORLD of ATLANTIS called OIKUMENOS
LYBIA was thenstill in Ethiopia the Geo name was transplanted by later immograntsa to NORTH-Africa !
ASIA comes in TWO Sizes: Asia MINOR which is Turkey and Asia MAJOR whicgh is ARABY(= Atlantis.)

This misconceoption of Atlantis as an Oceanic Isle
boils down to a ridicoulously-simple translation fault !
which became a ( Cherished-) but falsh Tradition ! Phoei !

Hi Mario,

Thanks for the positive feedback.

Quote
- How do you explain the passage in Critias relating to the region of Gades within a South American Atlantis "universe"?
- How do you explain (from a "motionless" point of view) the fact that North America is in fact in front of Gibraltar and not the South American Continent?

I did attempt to meet as many of Plato's, or more accurately, Solon's specifications as was possible, especially those that would appear to be more reliable. For example, specifications pertaining to the geography of Atlantis—specific measurements of the plain, its central placement on the island, and the arrangement of the surrounding mountains—these are aspects of the island that Solon would have had to take at face value and pass along virtually verbatim. Having no previous knowledge of Atlantis he would have had to trust his Egyptian source and therefore these details would have been passed along intact and proven fairly reliable.

The island's position in relation to the Pillars of Hercules and the Mediterranean is a slightly different matter as its placement had to fit within the limits of Solon's preconceived view of the world, and these details may not prove too reliable considering that this was how Solon apparently envisioned the world:



Here’s an example that should help better illustrate this point:
  • You're renting a small cabin with a very small fenced-in yard in the back and a reliable neighbor calls to inform you that there is an elephant in your backyard. He also tells you that it's 12-feet tall, weighs about 10 tons and has only one tusk.

    You call animal control to report the intruder and trusting your neighbor you report it as 12-feet tall, 10-tons and missing one tusk. This portion is relayed accurately as you have to rely solely on your neighbor's description since you are obviously too horrified to look outside.

    Animal control then asks its location and knowing the size of your very small yard you hysterically reply that he is just outside your back door. The only problem is, you're renting the cabin and do not realize that the property actually extends well beyond the fenced-in area. Your preconception of the backyard causes you to erroneously relate the elephant’s location.

Likewise, if the above image represented your view of the world—a centralized island comprised of Europe, Asia and Africa completely surrounded by Oceanus which in turn is surrounded by a ring of mountains—and someone informed you that there was an island the size of Asia and Africa combined located west of the Mediterranean, this limited world view would likely leave you locating Atlantis, or a good portion of it, directly in front of the Pillars of Hercules much as Solon apparently did.

Quote
- On the contrary, in my opinion, the huge distance between South America and the Mediterrenean is perhaps the most obvious element against your theory, how could such long distance be feasible from a Mediterrenean or anywhere else location? (it took me a week to travel from Lisbon to Cape Verde nonstop on a cargo ship)

"For because of the greatness of their empire many things were brought to them from foreign countries."

Consider the great distances sailed for the spice trade. Those trips were a bit longer than a week and a voyage from the Mediterranean to South America is a relatively short distance to travel for riches when compared to traveling from the Mediterranean to the Moluccas Islands in the Pacific.

Quote
- How do you explain the non existence of elephants in South America?

I can't even explain how a single-tusked 12-foot 10-ton elephant suddenly appears in someone's backyard. But seriously, do we have to accept all portions of the account as fact, or is it possible to consider that some portions may have been slightly embellished:

Quote
Zeus, the god of gods, who rules according to law, and is able to see into such things, perceiving that an honourable race was in a woeful plight, and wanting to inflict punishment on them, that they might be chastened and improve, collected all the gods into their most holy habitation, which, being placed in the centre of the world, beholds all created things. And when he had called them together, he spake as follows.....(Critias)

Best regards,
Doug
« Last Edit: May 20, 2009, 12:05:12 pm by BlueHue » Report Spam   Logged

( Blue's)THEORY, locating"original" Atlantis( in Aden-Yemen.)
1: ATLANTIS =Fake=Latin name, original Greek: ATHE(=a Region in Aden)
2: Atlantic-OCEAN=Greek: RIVER-of-Atlas+also" Known "World-OCEAN(=Red-Sea)
3: Greek-obsolete-Numeral 'X' caused Plato's Atlantisdate:9000=900
Doug Fisher
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« Reply #11 on: May 21, 2009, 10:18:29 pm »

Hello Mario,

Quote
I wonder if you have given any thought to the fact that South America seem to have been linked to New Zealand and Australia... In my theory i propose that after Pangaea break-up Africa and the South American Continents were distantly separated and suddenly got together again when the event of Atlantis sinking occurred (Drake Passage (South Argentina) could be the proof of a violent "near collision" with an asteroid or small Planet although it is believed to have happened 41 millions of years)

My next submission will be addressing earth dynamics and I am hoping to have it posted soon on my website. So for now I am choosing to stay mum on the subject, but I do believe you will be pleasantly surprised by my findings. I will likely post back to this forum when it goes live.

Quote
One has to believe also that the general research towards the finding of Atlantis is more important than our own single investigations and that there will be (supposedly) only one correct answer among several others, as painful as it might be...

Indeed, if we actually ever find the answer... and best of luck with your research.

Sincerely,
Doug Fisher
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Doug Fisher
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« Reply #12 on: May 21, 2009, 10:27:00 pm »

Morrison,

Have you got a space for the capital city yet?

Do you have any opinions on the site I proposed?




Tina Walter,

That's a major drawback of the South American theory, Qoais.  Plato describes a 5 1/2 mile channel from the ocean to the capital city and there is no such waterway leading from the Atlantic to any of the proposes Atlantis capitals in South America.

The newly proposed site does meet your 5 1/2 mile distance from city to sea, I was very much hoping to hear back from you as I was impressed by how your observation was very similar to my own concerning the Altiplano:

Quote
In fact Solon not only stated that the plain was "near the sea," but he also claimed oceangoing vessels were at the very least able to navigate to within 6 miles of the plain while the sea or ocean sat no more than 15 miles from the plain. The Altiplano sits 100 miles east of the nearest ocean, the Pacific, and due to the precipitous coastline absolutely no oceangoing vessel ever sailed nearer than 100 miles of the plain. (The Atlantis Maps)



-Doug
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Doug Fisher
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« Reply #13 on: May 21, 2009, 11:34:55 pm »

Hello Qoais,

Sorry for not responding earlier.

Hi Guys
Morrison I might have asked you this before, but remember when Plato talked about the harbour being full of ships and how all the other countries sent goods to Atlantis?  In this scenario, where would be all these other countries that were doing trade with Atlantis?

But WHO were all these other countries doing trade with her? that filled her harbours with "Triremes"? that brougt all kinds of goods to her?

The account does not say specifically, but it likely included the inhabitants of the Mediterranean, the same individuals they would later wage war against. As for foreign 'triremes' in the harbor, it seems more likely that it was Atlantis' own vessels doing the transporting, being such a large and wide-reaching empire "many things were brought to them from foreign countries" as opposed to "many things were brought to them by foreign countries."

Quote
"They had such an amount of wealth as was never before possessed by kings and potentates, and is not likely ever to be again. Because of the greatness of their empire many things were brought to them from foreign countries. The island itself provided most of what was required by them for the uses of life." (Critias)

-Doug
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Qoais
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« Reply #14 on: May 21, 2009, 11:50:46 pm »

Quote
Because of the greatness of their empire many things were brought to them from foreign countries.

Because of their greatness??? many things were BROUGHT to them.  Sounds to me like someone was kissing butt bringing many things.  Not them going out and bringing themselves things.  If they were bringing stuff to themselves I think the wording would have been different.  The least way of expressing it would be to say because of their numerous ships, they brought many things from foreign countries.  Brought - to me - means that others are doing the bringing.  And to predicate the sentence with "because of their greatness" makes one to understand that these foreign countries did the bringing to keep on the good side.

However, as I've said in a couple of other threads, I'm thinking Plato is having a bit of a laugh up his sleeve so to speak, because those three walls covered in metal would be a super conductor of electricity, and with the water running along side, the whole place would be "live" in the first lightning storm.  They would have had to ground those walls somehow.  Perhaps the metal itself ran down the wall past the earth line.
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An open-minded view of the past allows for an unprejudiced glimpse into the future.

Logic rules.

"Intellectual brilliance is no guarantee against being dead wrong."
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