'MYSTERY QUEST'- Drs. Greg & Lora Little's Series On History Channel

[Desiree]

Hi Greg,

Greg: Right. That's why we believe that the Bimini Road was a harbor breakwater used circa 3000 BC.

So the Bimini Road dates to after the latest find, right?  Wouldn't that mean that it was made by a different culture than the one with these current blocks that were found?

Or is there a chance that the Road was misdated and could be earlier?  The fact that it is only two miles away from the new find would lead me to believe that it might be all part of the same complex.

: "Since the blocks are smaller, were you able to bring any up and examine them to see if they were "worked" at all? Were any pottery fragments or other elements that might suggest a city also found at the site?"

Greg: We didn't touch them, we filmed them, --really, really close-up. As to pottery, the bottom there is sand. Anything small has been buried or was swept away over thousands of years of storms/hurricanes.

Are you making any plans to bring the blocks up?  I imagine you could tell up close if they were worked or not. Do the pictures show any marks?  Are you confident that they are manmade?

 

What it looks like isn't a city. Think of 40 or so small buildings, platforms, and wall enclosures elevated maybe 10-20 feet above the actual shoreline along a straight line adjacent to the shore...that's what it appears to be.

Sure sounds like a city to me!  I don’t suppose you found anything that would resemble fragments of statues or anything that Plato describes to underline the artificiality of the whole complex?

Bimini looks like a port, a waystation where cargo was moved between ships and perhaps offloaded for movement inland--keep in mind that at the 10,000 BC shoreline there...a huge, flat landmass was attached to it extending to the east for about 150 miles and to the south for a couple hundred miles. The Great Bahama Bank was completely exposed as a huge island then.

Has anyone involved with the A.R.E. ever done a map that shows just how big this island would be and exactly where it was, how far it extended?  It would really be helpful to take a look!

Greg: I see it as a part of Atlantis for 2 key reasons. 1) Atlantis--and claims of finding such-- have to date to 10,000 BC and before. Historically, there is a record (from Plato) of only one maritime culture dated to 10,000 BC--Atlantis. The size of the Great Bahama Bank does generally conform to the size of the main island described by Plato. And we found what appears to be the remains of a maritime culture dated to 10,000 BC and before. Thus, the conclusion that it's Atlantis. But I am in no way saying this was the center city.

Does that mean that the center city would still be by Zapata?  What is the closest underwater archaeology you have done to Zapata, and have you ever found anything of note there?

Of course, we have yet to find the chariots, center city, and other specifics. But in the Mediterranean, it took excavations to reveal such details. The same will eventually have to be done in the Bahamas--but don't expect any findings--no matter how compelling-- to convince the naysayers. The whole issue of "where and when was Atlantis" is rooted in psychology--and evidence rarely changes such things.

I totally expect those kind of findings to convince people!  Do you know what would happen if you found chariots, or the remains of boats or other elements of society in the same area as these buildings, and if they, too. Were found to date to 10,000 bc?  It would totally change the perception of how civilization was formed!  Granted, this is the area where most of the hurricanes strike, but are there any plans to do some digging in this underwater site to find other elements of a civilization and culture?

[Greg Little]

The Bimini Road is more recent, yes. The area was probably used continuously -- perhaps from before 10,000 BC to something like AD 100 or so. As sea levels rose, new port facilities were built...the older deeper ones were abandoned as unusable.

There are plans in the works for excavating and examining the constructions, which means bringing up everything associated with those chosen for study. But that has to be done by an archaeological team using rebreathers and mixed gas.

I am convinced that some of the square and rectangular formations are manmade, there are outer walls formed from small placed blocks. But in only a few of these, over a 1-mile swath, there are only a couple where that the walls are visible as most are covered in dense coral. The new film is definitive. It took us about 12 hours of surface filming to locate the ones where the walls are visible and map all the structures by gps.

And no fragments of statues or anything else like that was found there. The area of the rectangles looks like a white, sandy desert. At regular intervals the structures simply lay on the bottom, well defined, separated by a sandy bottom.

The ARE has a map of the area that has been looked at and we have made a map of the structures, including many of the ones in deeper water that have not really been discussed. I'm not as impressed with the photos and film of the deeper formations, but they may turn out to be something. We are leaving that to others. As far as the size of the island in 10,000 BC there have been a lot of maps made of it, by lots of people. No one argues that during the last Ice Age the Great Bahama Bank was underwater.

As to Zapata at Cuba, yes, I still hope to take a close look at it and examine it. It is on the south side of Cuba, almost in the middle of the island. Maybe soon, but politics is the key there. It does match Plato's description of the size and general location of the center city, and old nautical maps of it from the British definitely show rings. So yes, I remain hopeful about that spot. We have looked at 2 sites that are about 45 miles from Zapata, neither were part of Cuba. Both sites have what looks like archaeologically important things underwater. One was at Cay Sal, a breakwater, the other extreme south Andros, an underwater formation. Andros does have manmade mounds on it, something that to my knowledge mainstream archaeology has never reported.

The problem with finding artifacts is that skeptics will claim anything we find was a hoax. That's the MO when someone finds something that goes against their beliefs. Some have claimed that we took the marble ruins to Bimini and then "found them." They claim that we created all the multiple tiers at Bimini by moving the massive stones on top of each other, ad nauseum. I don't try to convince skeptics...they don't want truth. They are freak zealots -- so we have basically taken our results to the media.

[Mario Dantas]

Dear Greg,

I hope it is not too late to introduce myself, an old bug looking for Atlantis in Greenland...

I have followed your research from afar, and have thought about the difficulty of doing things at this level, the costs, etc. It must be extremely difficult to work underwater, although, in a certain way, you are researching what were indeed ancient Atlantis waters and looking into that same floor upon which Atlantis once stood. Atlantis research can become treacherous sometimes and i am sure you are engaged in an honest Quest. I guess not everything that glitters is gold when it comes to Atlantis...

Recently, i have been more "aware" of the Carribean region while looking at Google Eastern Atlantic regions, sometimes when having crossed the MAR border, i find myself suddenly near the Bahamas region and it is obvious that something very unique must have happened there and that it feels like a very short distance from where i live in the Cape Verde Islands.

I believe the true answers for Atlantis to lie in the Atlantic floor. I don´t think the Bahamas was Atlantis, but, undoubtedly, a part of it! I also believe that many ruins of Atlantis are to be found there, but again for the wrong reasons. I don´t want to be taken as hostile or anything towards your theory, believe me. I try to learn from any serious researcher, and i have learned from you. I think that the fact that the bahamas are in a "same" latitude as Cape Verde and Oman must be the confirmation that vestiges of Atlantis literally "flew" to both directions of the Atlantic. Turtle nesting is probably the best evidence that such thing happened across the Globe. The Three main Turtle nesting places in the World are at the same latitude: Florida, Cape Verde, Oman. I strongly believe that these Turtles have an Atlantean origin from aproximately 10.000 years ago.

I hope you don´t mind me jumping into your post, i only wish to learn and discuss things.

Regards,
Mario Dantas

[Greg Little]

Mario:
I understand what you are saying and I take no offense. In our books, articles, and documentaries on Atlantis, we consistently speculate that Atlantis was an "Empire" consisting of a wide-ranging confederation of islands extending from Gibraltar all the way to Cuba. Virtually all the islands of the Caribbean, areas of the Gulf of Mexico, and all the islands between the Americas to Gibraltar were part of the maritime island empire that Plato called Atlantis. One reason that we have focused our efforts in the Bahamas area is that a lot of things had been found in the area from the air but never investigated on water. The relatively shallow waters allows for somewhat "easier" investigation, but no underwater exploration is easy. It is expensive, time-consuming, logistically difficult, and far more dangerous than most people realize. But one other thing I've written is that people tend to "look for" Atlantis where it is "most convenient" for them. As an explanation of that idea, when Cuba becomes "convenient" we'll look there and probably change the entire focus of what we are doing. And I suspect that will be sooner than later.

On one level--the level pertaining to the actual "search" of the largely unexplored areas of the Bahamas--it really doesn't matter to me where Atlantis was...and it doesn't matter what sort of cultural materials are being found. The search itself is interesting and important--perhaps a lot more important than what is found. If that isn't immediately understood, I can't explain it.

With respect to Greenland, I am completely ignorant and clueless, and have never been there and have no knowledge of what archaeological exploration has taken place other than a superficial awareness of the Norse.

Best to you,
Greg Little

[Desiree]

Hi Greg,

The Bimini Road is more recent, yes. The area was probably used continuously -- perhaps from before 10,000 BC to something like AD 100 or so. As sea levels rose, new port facilities were built...the older deeper ones were abandoned as unusable.

'

So this means that you have found older layers of tghe road, dating to 10,000 bc? Or am I reading that wrong?

There are plans in the works for excavating and examining the constructions, which means bringing up everything associated with those chosen for study. But that has to be done by an archaeological team using rebreathers and mixed gas.

Is there a date set for that yet?  By bringing everything up, I tale it you mean from the more newly discovered site, two miles from Bimini, right?

The new film is definitive. It took us about 12 hours of surface filming to locate the ones where the walls are visible and map all the structures by gps.

Sounds great, when will we be able to see the first footage of this yet?  You sad it is definitive, in what way?  Have you ever found frescoes or something on the walls or something indicative of an ancient culture?

The problem with finding artifacts is that skeptics will claim anything we find was a hoax. That's the MO when someone finds something that goes against their beliefs. Some have claimed that we took the marble ruins to Bimini and then "found them."

Sounds like the skeptics at the House of Ma'at.  I am pretty sure that only the most zealot minded people would deny the value of a definitive finding in the Caribbean!  Between this find and Andrew Collins discovery under Giza, this year really has the potential to put traditional archaeology to shame!

Say, do you think that the Collins discovery in Egypt has anything to do with this civilization that was in the Bahamas?   

[Desiree]

I think that the fact that the bahamas are in a "same" latitude as Cape Verde and Oman must be the confirmation that vestiges of Atlantis literally "flew" to both directions of the Atlantic.

Mario, are you still living in Cape Verde?  I am pretty sure that is on the MAR. You could do some underwater work there, too, and might find something in your own geography.  It might all be related!

[Greg Little]

DES: "So this means that you have found older layers of tghe road, dating to 10,000 bc? Or am I reading that wrong?"

Greg: Not what is called the Bimini Road per se. What the evidence shows is that there was a maritime culture there circa 10,000 BC. With the rising sea levels, by maybe 4000 BC or so the sea levels had risen and the people moved the port to the new sea level which was where the Bimini Road is. There is evidence of at least 4 different ports in successive timeframes at Bimini. The 10,000 BC shoreline, The Bimini Road (perhaps 4000 BC, but more like 3000 BC, then the Paradise Point Pier (1000 BC or so), and the Proctor's Rd area, which dates to perhaps AD 400 and before. The area was used over a long period of time but it appears it was abandoned around 1500 years ago. One thing that supports it is that perhaps in the Dark Ages maritime trading between the Americas and Europe ceased and was largely forgotten. It's only speculation.

DES: "Is there a date set for that yet?  By bringing everything up, I tale it you mean from the more newly discovered site, two miles from Bimini, right?"

Greg: No, no date set. Generally we get things finalized maybe a month before. And I do mean the new site, in 90-feet, 2-miles away.

DES: "Sounds great, when will we be able to see the first footage of this yet?  You sad it is definitive, in what way?  Have you ever found frescoes or something on the walls or something indicative of an ancient culture?"

Greg: Not sure if or when it'll be available on the net, except that some of it will definitely be shown by Lora at a presentation she is making at the ARE's Ancient Mysteries Conference in October. It's definitive because what is visible is quite obvious--walls made of stacked stone blocks. The blocks (remember they are maybe 3x the size of common bricks) are just exposed and visible in a couple areas. It is definitive to us, of course, but it will not be to skeptics and officials. And nothing like a fresco has been found...man that would cause quite a stir. That would be something that the Bahamas officials would want. There have been some previously found artifacts there, like the so-called "marble head" found by Zink and a morticed stone at the Road, which is now displayed at Keefe's dive shop in North Bimini. The head has apparently disappeared into time and the morticed stone is useless archaeologically because it wasn't turned in to the Bahamanian officials who could have authenticated it and its position. If it is what it appears to be, it would have been smart to go back to the precise location to see if there were other stones that were similar. The Bahamas government officially asserts that the Bimini Road is completely natural. (In very, very recent correspondence with them that position was given.) Right now I don't have any plans to write up or publish the recent stuff, and the last video documentary was updated before we went to Bimini a couple weeks ago, and now I plan to update it again with the even newer film. Probably in the next few weeks, after a different project is finished.

DES: "Sounds like the skeptics at the House of Ma'at.  I am pretty sure that only the most zealot minded people would deny the value of a definitive finding in the Caribbean!"

Greg: The derision is at several sites, including one called unexplained-mysteries. The problem is that some zealots "do not want any finds made in the Caribbean"-- it's psychology.

DES: "Say, do you think that the Collins discovery in Egypt has anything to do with this civilization that was in the Bahamas?"

Greg: I played a small role in Andrew's Giza work and am mentioned in the book a few times. I'm one of his biggest supporters. He is a very impressive researcher and very gutsy. He's not appreciated and respected as much as he should be. Of course Atlantis lurks under the surface of Cuba, Bimini, and Giza. And we keep each other informed...and he has been at Bimini with us. But you'd have to ask him, and I'd guess that the answer he'd give would not be a simple yes or no.

[Keith Ranville]

Hi Greg,

I am Keith and interested in unsolved mysteries and I will be looking forward to your to be program.. into discovery.. this sounds intriguing and so forth.. good luck on the grand opening on you program segment I will be looking out for it..

Atlantis, Mayan mysteries is candy for thew mind..


Keith Ranville of Vancouver,

[Mario Dantas]

Dear Desiree,

Its been a long time! yes, i do live in Cape Verde and i am trying to get the more physical evidence as i can, whether on land, or "underwater" with Google. I am working now in the Environmental Department and have acess to a considerable amount of Biodiversity and Geologic data of many regions in the World but especially our Atlantic reality, the Eastern Atlantic, North of Africa, the Sahara, Western Africa, etc, (there is no time to read it all...). Nevertheless, i have been trying to assimilate as much as possible and mirror those data with Critias, basically. I don´t consider the Eastern Atlantic spot a good place to look for evidence underwater... it is as deep as 3000, 4000m wich would certainly require "state-of-the-Art" technology and basically i wouldn´t be analysing any more different patterns that occur in the Atlantic floor than if i was using Google. We have very steep surfaces that can reach thousands of meters within a few hundred meters distance from the Coast, there are a lot of Seamounts...

The Bahamas, on the other hand, have all the caracteristics of a depositional region, where many stuff got deposited as the sand itself and vanished forever.

Dear Greg,

I understand your point, and couldn´t agree more with a more real Atlantic dimension, from the Pillars of Hercules to the Carribean Islands. The Atlantic is now a vast Ocean while in the ealier Atlantis time there existed a smaller Okeanos, which made the whole Atlantic considerably smaller than it is today.(there was a 140m Sea level rise after Atlantis disappeared). For all i know we are defending an Atlantis in the Atlantic Ocean, where it should have existed since the first time. I am sure the Olmec Culture isn´t situated in Central America for no reason. There must have been a close Human Bridge between Africa and the American Continent, separated by large Rivers perhaps? I understand that Central America is a large "hole" in the frame. The Bermuda triangle is somehow related to the destruction of Atlantis, even if i don´t believe a word of the many "strange" stuff going on there and reported by the media, i can´t deny that something anormalous must be hidden, trapped ancient magnetic locations? The North Pole could have been very near that location in an ancient time, as far as i remember the Earth "Wobbled" a few times, so why the Bermuda Triangle cannot represent an ancient North Pole in "terra firma" in the Atlantic Ocean?

Are you aware of fennoscandinavian mythology, Bock Saga? They speak of a certain "Hel" and "Odenmaa" and their "stricto senso" regarding the North Pole where the Aser lived surrounded by Vaner People, etc.

This occurred at the exact North Pole around which the sun circled and never set. Surrounding the Pole was a land that became the Motherland known as Odenma, Uudenmaa. At its centre was Hel, meaning clear, home and complete. The humans were known as pi-pol. people and all knowledge could be understood within the pol and ring. It is significant to note that mathematics is based on 0 and 1, a pole and a ring. Uudenmaa, the garden of Ooden, which later became known as Eden, is now in Southern Finland and was a tropical paradise and the home of the first people known as the Aser. Ringlands were created outside of Uudenmaa and within each ringland the breeding system was put in place. The people that lived outside of Uudenmaa were known as the Vaner people who had the Van (means "one") language.

http://www.paulapeterson.com/Bock_Saga.html

The Pole turned around the sun very fast, and the Sun described one ring in the Sky. Have you any opinion on this possibility of a Bermuda triangle ancient North Pole location?
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/33/Bermuda_Triangle.png


Regards,
Mario Dantas

[Greg Little]

Mario:

The Atlantic was indeed smaller in the last Ice Age, and also much more stable weather-wise.

As to the Bermuda Triangle, what I know for certain are only 2 things: 1) magnetic anomalies do occur; 2) some of the reported planes that disappeared are there, underwater and some crashed on remote land.

As to the North Pole having shifted or experienced sudden crustal displacement, I know that it is possible and that many people accept it as having happened. I'm more skeptical on it having happened just 12,000 years ago or so, but I have to rely on people other than myself for that sort of info. So yes, lots of things are possible...but I don't know the actual reality and can't even speculate on it. In our books we have presented what Edgar Cayce said about it...and mentioned a few others. But actual evidence is scant. I have been aware of the Bock Saga, yes, but am no expert in it and have not studied it. I don't have an opinion on where the North Pole was back then...and I mean that...
As to the Bermuda Triangle, it is an area--obviously a bit misnamed-- where some odd and strange things do happen. Is it at a statistically higher level than what happens in other highly traveled places? In truth, despite what skeptics claim, no one has ever done a true statistical analysis to show the answer one way or the other. But it definitely has some weird and sometimes inexplicable events.

Keith:
Thanks. The first show on History's Mysteryquest (it is a 1-word title) is supposed to be on October 20. The other November 4. Like everyone in this stuff, I have been interested in Oak Island...but I'm not a treasure hunter in any way...just like the mystery.

Greg

[RJA]

Greg & Group:

I've been following the work in the Bahamas since I first learned about it back in 2006. I'm so interested, in fact, that I author a blog devoted just to this subject - The MEGA Blog (http://www.themegablog.com) - where my goal is to increase public awareness of the work of Drs. Greg & Lora Little, Bill Donato and the others. Until my recent retirement to southern Baja, Mexico, I also served as the webmaster for Donato's APEX Institute website at http://www.apexinstitute.org. Unfortunately, I won't get to see the History Channel programming unles it shows up on the Internet becasue our satellite TV service here in Mex'ico doesn't include THC. Bummer!

Greg, I have a question for you. The evidence certainly points to the existence of an ancient maritime culture that florished in the Bahamas/Caribbean long before the Mesopotamians were ever splashing around in the Tigris and the Euphrates. What are your thoughts on where this culture went? The obvious answer seems to be west, to the higher ground that is now the southeastern U.S. but I haven't heard anybody actually say that. It doesn't seem logical that a culture sophisticated enough to survive 7,000 years would just sit down and wait for the waves to wash over them. If we could pick up their trail once they abandoned Bimini, maybe we could learn more about their culture before they moved on.

R.J. Archer

[Horus]

Greg: The derision is at several sites, including one called unexplained-mysteries. The problem is that some zealots "do not want any finds made in the Caribbean"-- it's psychology.

Thomas Kuhn, in his book The Structure of Scientific Revolutions describes the reactions of scientists to new discoveries and how hard it is for them to make changes in their basic beliefs. Kuhn noticed that scientists would go to any lengths to deny the validity of new theories or the need to change their minds.  He describes the symptoms associated with fundamental change:

     1. Persistent denial
     2. Refusal to consider evidence
     3. Reluctance to criticize old ideas
     4. Slander of new-thinking colleagues
     5. Anger at having to give up cherished dogmas

These would seem to be the first two stages of establishing 'truth' according to German philosopher Arthur Schopenhauer who said

"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident."

[Greg Little]

RJA:
I am certain that a maritime culture was operating in the Bahamas and Caribbean around 10,000 BC, in fact, it is accepted that a coastal maritime culture was operating off Ecuador about the same time, at the Las Vegas River there. The speculation would be that when the circa 10,000 BC disaster struck the SE US and the Caribbean, many of the then-existing ports and sea-side villages were destroyed. Byt remnants survived and chances are that the people from "elsewhere" who were actively trading with the people in the Bahamas area returned repeatedly and re-established trading ties. As the sea levels rose over the next 6-7000 years, they simply kept moving their ports to the new shores...higher and higher. At some point, maybe circa AD 500, for some reason the trading between the Americas and other regions either slowed or ceased. And the ever-shrinking Bahamas became unable to support an advanced civilization. Maybe it was essentially forgotten because of political events in the Old World. But the people who survived these times certainly moved to North and Central and South America. America's moundbuilders started around 4000 BC and were remnants of this. They also built canals in Florida and the SW of America. Central and South America's pyramid cultures started around the same time--4000 BC. That's my opinion on where the bulk of them went. In addition, it is likely some of the earlier peoples who were living in these areas also went to the "Old World."

[Desiree]

Hi Greg,

One thing that hasn't been covered here is Plato's account:

Have you found anything that resembles the buildings or culture that he described in Timaeus or Critias, let alone the presumed war that Atlantis had with Athens?

Do you have a theory as to when and where this Athens and this war actually took place, given that the Greeks weren't even officially a people until 1500 bc?

I think a lot of researcher imagine that Plato took artistic license when he came up with things like triremes, chariots, bull worship and a city with concentric circles.  But obviously some of that had to be true in order for him to have the story in the first place.

[Desiree]

Dear Desiree,

Its been a long time! yes, i do live in Cape Verde and i am trying to get the more physical evidence as i can, whether on land, or "underwater" with Google. I am working now in the Environmental Department and have acess to a considerable amount of Biodiversity and Geologic data of many regions in the World but especially our Atlantic reality, the Eastern Atlantic, North of Africa, the Sahara, Western Africa, etc, (there is no time to read it all...).

Hi Mario!

Nice to hear from you again, too.  Say, are you in Cape Verde doing scientific work?  If so, what is your field?

Do you ever do any diving around there?  I know that there are supposed to be ruins in the Canary Islands region which isn't too far off.