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The Ancient War of the Gods

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Qoais
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« Reply #300 on: May 27, 2009, 07:41:31 pm »

Wind I clicked on that film and it says "Embedding disabled by request".  Guess I don't get to see it.
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« Reply #301 on: May 27, 2009, 09:42:48 pm »

Wind I clicked on that film and it says "Embedding disabled by request".  Guess I don't get to see it.

It sure does say that Qoais, sorry about that, it worked earlier  Huh   I'll see if I can find it somewhere else, it was very interesting.
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« Reply #302 on: May 27, 2009, 09:52:40 pm »

Here's the link to the page itself, for some reason you can only watch the video there.

http ://www. youtube. com/watch?v=jConUC-tC6g&feature=related

I put spaces in it so that it wouldn't link to the video.   You'll have to type it out.
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« Reply #303 on: May 28, 2009, 01:17:57 am »

No problem, Wind, hopefully there are no more problems!

Brooke
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Bianca
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« Reply #304 on: June 17, 2009, 07:35:54 am »

Qoais
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    Re: Ancient War of the Gods
« Reply #16 on: May 27, 2009, 07:58:18 pm » Quote 

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Here is some information from an aquaintance of mine who has studied Egypt for years regarding Velikovsky's erroneous time line.

Hi, Qoais

I've come across Velikovsky's date-revision in the past but am not completely familiar with the logic behind it. I don't know on what he bases his argument, for instance, but the evidence does solidly argue against him. The few years following Akhenaten are a bit murky (leading into Tutankhamun's reign), but nearly all of Dynasty 18 leading up to and including Akhenaten is very well established in chronology. It seems to me Velikovsky is trying to remove Akhenaten from his context, which doesn't work. A plethora of statuary and reliefs clearly proclaim him to be the son of Amunhotep III, one of the greatest kings of the New Kingdom. In fact, we know beyond doubt that Akhenaten wasn't even originally to have become the next king. His older brother, the crown prince Tuthmose, predeceased Amunhotep III, which is how Akhenaten (as Amunhotep IV) got the throne. He was next in line. We also know beyond doubt that his mother was Queen Tiy, one of the most powerful queens of the time. She helped him maintain power throughout the kingdom after Akhenaten built and shut himself inside his new capital, Akhetaten.

I don't think I need to go into details, unless you specifically wish me to. However, I can also add that there is a fair amount of written records from Syro-Palestine addressed to the court of Akhenaten, when the Hittites were plundering the area and they (the leaders of Syro-Palestinian cities) were appealing for help. Suffice it to say, Akhenaten is solidly situated within late Dynasty 18 of the New Kingdom. The evidence on that is unshakable. The period Velikovsky favors is much later, during the rise of the Assyrian empire, which itself would conquer Egypt. Their own records as well as Egyptian records clearly show the line of Egyptian monarchs at that time, and Akhenaten is not among them. He had already been dead for centuries.
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« Reply #305 on: June 17, 2009, 07:55:05 am »

Robert0326
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     Re: Ancient War of the Gods
« Reply #21 on: June 05, 2009, 01:02:05 pm » Quote 

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                                                      Titanomachy

     After Kronos overthrew his father Ouranos, the Titans - twelve in number - ruled, with Kronos as their head.

Each of the male Titans joined with one of his sisters to produce children. Kronos married his sister Rhea, but was told by his parents that he would be defeated by his own son. To thwart this prophesy, he swallowed each of his and Rhea's children as they were born - Hestia, Demeter, Hera, Hades, and Poseidon. Being immortal, this did not kill them, but they remained trapped inside him.

Rhea grieved for the loss of her children. So, when she was close to giving birth to Zeus, she consulted with her parents Gaia and Ouranos. They revealed the future to her, showing her how to thwart Kronos. First, Rhea went to the island of Crete to give birth to her son. When he was born, his infant cries were drowned out by the Kouretes, attendants of his mother, who clashed their weapons together. He was kept hidden in a cave and reputedly nursed by a goat named Amaltheia, although in some versions Amaltheia was the owner of the goat. The horn of this goat may have been the famous horn of plenty (a detail added by Ovid, but possibly with precedent) and it

When Kronos came to Rhea for their child, Rhea gave him instead a stone, wrapped in cloths. Not noticing, he swallowed the stone instead.

The infant Zeus grew quickly - Hesiod's Theogony says it took only a year. Between his strength and the advice of Gaia, Zeus was able to force Kronos to throw up first the stone, and then all his siblings one by one. Alternatively, according to the Apollodoros, the Titaness Metis tricked Kronos into swallowing an emetic.

What happened immediately after [Kronos regurgitated his children] is not clear, but the war between the gods and Titans - the Titanomachy - soon begins. Unfortunately the epic poem of that name, which would have told us much, is lost. The first complete account we have is in Apollodorus (which was probably written in the 1st century A.D.).

Some of the children of the other Titans - such as Iapetos' son Menoetius - fought alongside their forebears. Others - including Iapetos' other children Prometheus and Epimetheus - did not.

The war was fought without success on either side for ten years (a traditional period for a long war; note that the Trojan War also lasted ten years), with the gods based on Mount Olympus, and the Titans on Mount Othrys. These two mountains flank the area of northern Greece called Thessaly, Olympus to the north, and Othrys to the south.

Since both sides of this war were immortal, no permanent casualties were possible. Finally, however, the gods triumphed with the aid of older powers.

Ouranos had long ago imprisoned the three Cyclopes and the three Hundred-Handers (Hekatoncheires) in dark Tartaros. Again advised by Gaia, Zeus freed these monstrous cousins of the Titans and was rewarded with their aid. The Cyclopes gave lightning and thunder to Zeus to wield as weapons, and in later accounts also created Hades' helmet of darkness and Poseidon's trident.

The Hundred-Handers provided more direct assistance. In the final battle, they kept the Titans under a constant barrage of hundreds thrown rocks, which together with the other gods' strengths, particularly Zeus' thunderbolts, overcame the Titans. The defeated Titans were hauled down to Tartaros and imprisoned there, and the Hundred-Handers became their jailors.

Or at least that is how Hesiod concludes his vivid description of the battle. However, elsewhere in his Theogony, and in other poems, we see that in fact many of the Titans did not remain there.

The children of Iapetos had varied fates - Menoetius was like his father cast into Tartaros, or destroyed by Zeus' thunderbolt. But the varied fates of Iapetos' other sons - Atlas, Prometheus, and Epimetheus - did not involve imprisonment for fighting in the war.

Many of the female Titans or daughters of the Titans - such as Themis, Mnemosyne, Metis - were also obviously not imprisoned. (Perhaps they did not participate in the fighting.) In any case, they became the mothers of the Muses, Horai, Moirai, and - in a manner of speaking - Athena.

The mythological record is silent on most of the rest of the Titans, but a later myth said that Kronos himself was eventually released by Zeus, and he was assigned to rule over the Isles of the Blessed, where the spirits of heroes went after death.

P.S.  Not sure if anyone had posted anything similar to this.  Thought it was pertinent to the discussion.
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Bianca
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« Reply #306 on: June 17, 2009, 08:01:06 am »

Robert0326
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     Re: Ancient War of the Gods
« Reply #23 on: June 05, 2009, 03:29:37 pm » Quote 

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Tartarus is the lowest region of the world, as far below earth as earth is from heaven. According to the Greek poet Hesiod, a bronze anvil falling from heaven would take nine days and nights to reach earth, and an object would take the same amount of time to fall from earth into Tartarus. Tartarus is described as a dank, gloomy pit, surrounded by a wall of bronze, and beyond that a three-fold layer of night. Along with Chaos, Earth, and Eros, it is one of the first entities to exist in the universe.

While Hades is the main realm of the dead in Greek mythology, Tartarus also contains a number of characters. In early stories, it is primarily the prison for defeated gods; the Titans were condemned to Tartarus after losing their battle against the Olympian gods, and the hecatoncheires stood over them as guards at the bronze gates. When Zeus overcomes the monster Typhus, born from Tartarus and Gaia, he hurls it too into the same abyss.

However, in later myths Tartarus becomes a place of punishment for sinners. It resembles Hell and is the opposite of Elysium, the afterlife for the blessed. When the hero Aeneas visits the underworld, he looks into Tartarus and sees the torments inflicted on characters such as the Titans, Tityos, Otus and Ephialtes, and the Lapiths. Rhadymanthus (and, in some versions, his brother Minos) judges the dead and assigns punishment. 
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Bianca
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« Reply #307 on: June 17, 2009, 08:06:32 am »

Robert0326
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     Re: Ancient War of the Gods
« Reply #25 on: June 05, 2009, 04:11:49 pm » Quote 

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Labor Ten: the Cattle of Geryon

In creating monsters and formidable foes, the Greek mythmakers used a simple technique of multiplication. Thus Geryon, the owner of some famous cattle that Heracles was now instructed to steal, had three heads and/or three separate bodies from the waist down. His watchdog, Orthrus, had only two heads. This Labor took place somewhere in the country we know as Spain. The hound Orthrus rushed at Heracles as he was making off with the cattle, and the hero killed him with a single blow from the wooden club which he customarily carried. Geryon was dispatched as well, and Heracles drove the herd back to Greece, taking a wrong turn along the way and passing through Italy.
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Bianca
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« Reply #308 on: June 17, 2009, 08:09:32 am »

Wind
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     Re: Ancient War of the Gods
« Reply #26 on: June 05, 2009, 05:46:56 pm » Quote 

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[quoteP.S.  Not sure if anyone had posted anything similar to this.  Thought it was pertinent to the discussion.][/quote]

It is very pertinent to this discussion Robert    Thank you for sharing this.

I did notice something at the first of the summary that was new to me, and that is the fact that Kronos had parents!   I had never heard of this before, I had always thought of him as being the first of the Greek Gods.

The Gods were flesh and blood beings!  I have always believed this,  primitive man viewed them as God’s because they wielded powers and abilities that must have seemed supernatural.
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Bianca
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« Reply #309 on: June 17, 2009, 08:12:27 am »

Robert0326
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     Re: Ancient War of the Gods
« Reply #27 on: June 05, 2009, 06:45:04 pm » Quote 

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I'm glad I could help.  I noticed something about it too.  I was under the impression that it was the fates that told Kronos that his children would over though him.   
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Bianca
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« Reply #310 on: June 17, 2009, 08:14:28 am »

Qoais
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    Re: Ancient War of the Gods
« Reply #28 on: June 05, 2009, 08:39:03 pm » Quote 

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"fates", "muses", "gods" - are they not all more or less the same?  Ultimate beings that were beyond the scope and ken of mere mortals?

Speaking of the demi-god Heracles, as I recall the story, Geryon chased him, and to prevent Geryon from catching him, he struck the mountain with his mace and split it in two - which supposedly created the Straits of Gibraltar.  So - if the cattle were in Spain, would it not be a waste of time then, to split a mountain in the south - the direction opposite to where he needed to go?  The Strait of Gibraltar is south of Spain.  Greece is East.  If Heracles was chasing the cattle homeward, and he split the mountain (supposedly now called the Pillars of Heracles) he would have had to be running south into Africa.

Therefore - Geryon was not in Spain - or Gibraltar is not the Pillars of Heracles -
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Bianca
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« Reply #311 on: June 17, 2009, 08:16:22 am »

Wind
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     Re: Ancient War of the Gods
« Reply #29 on: June 05, 2009, 11:44:19 pm » Quote 

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Here’s a little more on Kronos also spelled Cronos.


In Greek mythology and early myths


In ancient Greek myths, Cronus envied the power of his father, the ruler of the universe, Ouranos. Ouranos drew the enmity of Cronus' mother, Gaia, when he hid the gigantic youngest children of Gaia, the hundred-armed Hecatonchires and one-eyed Cyclopes, in Tartarus, so that they would not see the light. Gaia created a great adamant sickle and gathered together Cronus and his brothers to persuade them to kill Ouranos. Only Cronus was willing to do the deed, so Gaia gave him the sickle and placed him in ambush. When Ouranos met with Gaia, Cronus attacked him with the sickle by cutting off his genitals, castrating him and casting the severed member into the sea. From the blood (or, by a few accounts, semen) that spilled out from Ouranos and fell upon the earth, the Gigantes, Erinyes, and Meliae were produced. From the member that was cast into the sea, Aphrodite later emerged. For this, Ouranos threatened vengeance and called his sons titenes (according to Hesiod meaning "straining ones," the source of the word "titan", but this etymology is disputed) for overstepping their boundaries and daring to commit such an act.
In an alternate version of this myth, a more benevolent Cronus overthrew the wicked serpentine Titan Ophion. In doing so, he released the world from bondage and for a time ruled it justly.
After dispatching Ouranos, Cronus re-imprisoned the Hecatonchires, the Gigantes, and the Cyclopes and set the dragon Campe to guard them. He and Rhea took the throne of the world as king and queen. This period of Cronus' rule was called the Golden Age, as the people of the time had no need for laws or rules; everyone did the right thing, and immorality was absent.
Cronus learned from Gaia and Ouranos that he was destined to be overcome by his own son, just as he had overthrown his father. As a result, although he sired the gods Demeter, Hera, Hades, Hestia, and Poseidon by Rhea, he swallowed them all as soon as they were born to preempt the prophecy. When the sixth child, Zeus, was born Rhea sought Gaia to devise a plan to save them and to eventually get retribution on Cronus for his acts against his father and children. Rhea secretly gave birth to Zeus in Crete, and handed Cronus a stone wrapped in swaddling clothes, also known as the Omphalos Stone, which he promptly swallowed, thinking that it was his son.
Rhea kept Zeus hidden in a cave on Mount Ida, Crete. According to some versions of the story, he was then raised by a goat named Amalthea, while a company of Kouretes, armored male dancers, shouted and clapped their hands to make enough noise to mask the baby's cries from Cronus. Other versions of the myth have Zeus raised by the nymph Adamanthea, who hid Zeus by dangling him by a rope from a tree so that he was suspended between the earth, the sea, and the sky, all of which were ruled by his father, Cronus. Still other versions of the tale say that Zeus was raised by his grandmother, Gaia.
Once he had grown up, Zeus used a poison given to him by Gaia to force Cronus (Kronos or Kronus) to disgorge the contents of his stomach in reverse order: first the stone, which was set down at Pytho under the glens of Mount Parnassus to be a sign to mortal men, then the goat, and then his two brothers and three sisters. In other versions of the tale, Metis gave Cronus an emetic to force him to disgorge the children, or Zeus cut Cronus' stomach open. After freeing his siblings, Zeus released the Gigantes, the Hecatonchires, and the Cyclopes, who forged for him his thunderbolts. In a vast war called the Titanomachy, Zeus and his brothers and sisters, with the help of the Gigantes, Hecatonchires, and Cyclopes, overthrew Cronus and the other Titans. Afterwards, many of the Titans were confined in Tartarus. Some Titans were not banished to Tartarus. Atlas, Cronus, Epimetheus, Menoetius, Oceanus and Prometheus are examples of Titans who were not imprisoned in Tartarus following the Titanomachy. Gaia bore the monster Typhon to claim revenge for the imprisoned Titans, though Zeus was victorious. Accounts of the fate of Cronus after the Titanomachy differ. In Homeric and other texts he is imprisoned with the other Titans in Tartarus. In Orphic poems, he is imprisoned for eternity in the cave of Nyx. Pindar describes his release from Tartarus, where he is made King of Elysium by Zeus. In another version, the Titans released the Cyclopes from Tartarus, and Cronos was awarded the kingship among them, beginning a Golden Age.
Other children Cronus is reputed to have fathered include Chiron, by Philyra.
Cronos is again mentioned in the Sibylline Oracles, particularly book three, which makes Cronos, 'Titan' and Iapetus, the three sons of Ouranos and Gaia, each to receive a third division of the Earth, and Cronos is made king over all. After the death of Ouranos, Titan's sons attempt to destroy Cronos' and Rhea's male offspring as soon as they are born, but at Dodona, Rhea secretly bears her sons Zeus, Poseidon and Hades and sends them to Phrygia to be raised in the care of three Cretans. Upon learning this, sixty of Titan's men then imprison Cronos and Rhea, causing the sons of Cronos to declare and fight the first of all wars against them. This account mentions nothing about Cronos either killing his father or attempting to kill any of his children.
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Bianca
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« Reply #312 on: June 17, 2009, 08:18:22 am »

Wind
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     Re: Ancient War of the Gods
« Reply #30 on: June 05, 2009, 11:46:58 pm » Quote 

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El, the Phoenician Cronus

When Hellenes encountered Phoenicians and later, Hebrews, they identified the Semitic El, by interpretatio graeca, with Cronus. The association was recorded as late as Philo, reported in Eusebius' Pręparatio Evangelica I.10.16, as Peter Walcot observed.
The account ascribed by Eusebius to the semi-legendary pre-Trojan War Phoenician historian, Sanchuniathon, indicates that Cronus was originally a Canaanite ruler who founded Byblos and was subsequently deified. This version gives his alternate name as Elus or Ilus, and states that in the 32nd year of his reign, he emasculated, slew and deified his father Epigeius or Autochthon "whom they afterwards called Uranus". It further states that after ships were invented, Cronos, visiting the 'inhabitable world', bequeathed Attica to his own daughter Athena, and Egypt to Thoth the son of Misor and inventor of writing
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Bianca
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« Reply #313 on: June 17, 2009, 08:21:51 am »






Wind:


"It further states that after ships were invented, Cronos, visiting the 'inhabitable world', bequeathed Attica to his own daughter Athena, and Egypt to Thoth the son of Misor and inventor of writing"


Wasn't  Athena the daughter of Zeus?
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Bianca
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« Reply #314 on: June 17, 2009, 08:24:33 am »

Wind
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     Re: Ancient War of the Gods
« Reply #34 on: June 06, 2009, 10:19:10 pm » Quote 

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Quote from: Bianca on June 06, 2009, 05:45:08 am




Wind:


"It further states that after ships were invented, Cronos, visiting the 'inhabitable world', bequeathed Attica to his own daughter Athena, and Egypt to Thoth the son of Misor and inventor of writing"


Wasn't  Athena the daughter of Zeus?


Apparently there are many different versions to the stories Bianca.    Here's what I found on Wikipedia.

In The Greek Myths, Robert Graves notes early myths about the birth of Athena which describe her as a goddess from Libya, whose worship came to the Greeks from Crete after arriving there as early as 4,000 BC. According to Graves, Hesiod (c. 700 BC) relates that Athena was a parthenogenous daughter of Metis, wisdom or knowledge, a Titan who ruled the fourth day and the planet Mercury. Other variants relate that although Metis was of an earlier generation of the Titans, Zeus became her consort when his cult gained dominance. In order to avoid a prophecy made when that change occurred, that any offspring of his union with Metis would be greater than he, Zeus swallowed Metis to prevent her from having offspring, but she already was pregnant with Athena. Metis gave birth to Athena and nurtured her inside Zeus until Athena burst forth from his forehead fully armed with weapons given by her mother.

Late Classical Greek myths most commonly describe Athena as the "daughter" of Zeus, born from his head after he swallowed her pregnant mother. She famously wields the thunderbolt and the Aegis, which she and Zeus share exclusively.
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