Science, the Bible & Evolution

[Brooke]

Brooke

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Member # 2806

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   posted 12-15-2005 11:21 PM                       
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Nothing in Biology Makes Sense Except in the Light of Evolution
Theodosius Dobzhansky (1900-1975)
Transcribed from The American Biology Teacher, March 1973 (35:125-129)

http://www.2think.org/dobzhansky.shtml

29+ Evidences for Macroevolution
The Scientific Case for Common Descent
Version 2.85

by Douglas Theobald, Ph.D.

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/

Evolution is a Fact and a Theory
by Laurence Moran

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/evolution-fact.html

Creationist Lies
and Blunders

http://members.cox.net/ardipithecus/evol/lies/

[ 12-15-2005, 11:22 PM: Message edited by: Brooke ]
 

[Brooke]

Morrison

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Member # 2156

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   posted 12-16-2005 12:22 AM                       
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Hi Oscar,

I agree, best to speak with specific points rather than generalities. However, my overall opinion of the Bible is that it is a book meant to teach a moral lesson, rather than be accurate to history. You want to discuss this without anyone offering their opinions, but this is an Internet forum, so it would be impossible to discuss anything here without people offering their opinions.

Having said that, let's look at some specific examples:

The Global Flood: I believe it was a local flood of such extremity that it only seemed global. This would solve the problem of Noah having to gather up all the animals of the world, he didn't, just the ones in his region. It would have happened still in a time with recent memory, within a reasonable time for oral tradition. The epic of Gilgamesh predates the Noah story in the Bible by many centuries, they were both taken from a flood that happened in Mesopotamia.

Exodus: The Jews wandering around in the wilderness for 40 years. A faulty translation or a deliberate exaggeration. It takes, at best, ten days to get from Egypt to Jericho, from what I heard. Joshua blew his horn and the walls of Jericho came tumbling down? Has to be another mistranslation, or speaking figuratively. Maybe he blew his horn, they lay sige, and then they brought the walls down. We're missing some lines here.

Tower of Babel: I believe it existed, I believe that the ending of the table (why people speak in different languages) is just plain rubbish. If it is meant to be allegorical, it's not even clever.

Soddom & Gommorah: Lot's wife is a convenient excuse for the salt pillars in the region.

Also, you mentioned Troy, everyone does here.

I think it’s important to point out that, though we have found Troy (even though Rockesense would disagree), we have yet the uncover evidence of the Trojan War, or Achilles, Ajax, Hector, Paris, or any of the other characters that took part in it.

Often, myths are built on histories that are exaggerated

[ 12-16-2005, 12:23 AM: Message edited by: Morrison ]
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[Brooke]

Sarah

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Member # 2812

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   posted 12-16-2005 01:56 AM                       
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quote:
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If I was a scientist I certainly would want to see if I could prove or disprove, depending on my belief, that science is or isn't involved simply by the questions and comments the books presents. No self-respecting scientist would do otherwise, especially since that's what that discipline does anyway. (Obviously some simply aren't interested.)
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Andrew Waters, the problem as I see it is that (because of their upbringing), many scientists look for ways to prove their faith, not disqualify it. In other words, they are not objective.

One should come to the topic of the creation of the universe with a curiosity about how it was created, not try to fit the universe to a certain mold.

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"If I forget thee, O Jerusalem, may my right hand fail..." - King David, Psalms 137:5

http://www.zwoje-scrolls.com/shoah/index.html

http://www.holocaustchronicle.org/
 

[Brooke]

oscar

Member
Member # 1390

Rate Member   posted 12-16-2005 04:46 AM                       
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It's impossible to reason with Brooke. I'm quoting all sort of links which are not exclusive from Creation links and makes another general statement "they are not objective" or even the photographs. What about Maimonides is in a book of physicist Ph.D whom I already mentioned and his book. Re-read again my posts. Even in the modern translations re-read the texts I already mentioned saying clearly there are days and days.
Of course no men lived in the times of Creation. It's absurd to think we could've been witness of the fact and nobody is here saying they knew because of that. In the same way Sumerians STARTING their sexagesimal numerical system with 500 precessional times and reduced the number until reaching 60. How did they know that if a single degree takes 72 years and they couldn't witness that information passing through generations? Or Mayans knowing a solar eclipse with a thousand years anticipation with no telescopes? By the way, not an amateur but specialist in solar magnetism, Maurice Cotterell, discovered with the help of one of the most powerful computers in the world in Cranfield University, the cycle of sunspots and magnetic revertion every 3740 years (1.366.040 days) which is almost exactly the number worshipped by the Mayas in the jungles of Mexico 1000 years ago! So, what we read in the Bible is not an isolated case. Your argument we need to be witness in those days to know something is so childish that I think I'm not talking with adult person or even a child but RETARDED!
I'm even quoting the books or the arguments even from evolutionists for Christ sake! It's pretty obvious you are gonna say everything I post is stupid and you're the only one "objective". Is that your "argument" right now? That all my sources are imbecil and yours are okey dokey. I read everything and I don't eliminate anything. I'm saying we can't trust the beloved science because there are contradictions and again I say, if you trust so much in evolution which you quote in almost every post you make (and this is not the tread about this, HOW MANY TIMES DO I HAVE TO REPEAT THAT I-D-I-O-T ?)..open the proper theme. I even quoted Carl Sagan who was worried about the prints of dinosaurs in geological strata near to humans and he was the champion of anti-religious people (of course in his ambiguity in "Contact" the contact was more paranormal or methaphysical than physical).
If you CARE TO READ the links you will see the dinosaurs have been living until recently. Please read, read, read, and if you think this -I mean in case you read the links- is not objective, SAY WHY NOT.
Again, you're dodging the theme here. You're pasting again what is the meaning of theories and you talk about "real" scientists saying what you wanna hear. That's the very problem with our times. We have a bunch of theories all over the place and isolated scientists disagreeing with others! So again, don't lecture us about theories, RESPOND THE ISSUES instead of occupying space with too much bla-bla-bla and saying nothing. In fact many scientists and not only the scientists who are Creationists have said some "dragons" were dinosaurs and taught about canopy world and now the orthodox are beginning to consider the issue and we see National Geographic documentaries. It's the duty of everyone to make criticism about science and everyting. I said you have no telepatic skill to know what I am and I don't fit myself only with some points afford Creationits but other thoughts as well. Nobody owns total truth but you, of course.
Again, stupidly like someone who strikes a head in the wall, you ignore the argument it was given to you PAGES AGO. We're dealing here with simultaneous times depending on the point of view of the observer. When the mountains existed and it was the proto-earth the counting is not the counting of days as it is nowadays. Even if you got back on time, the rotation of the earth and movement around the Sun (hence "day" and "year" can't be the same as today). Don't you understand moron? We measure the things like this cos usually orthodox science swallowed easily the idea of uniformitariansm, that is the vents of today "should" determine the way how we see the past..
Again you CHOOSE to believe what you have in mind. I don't think it's needed to post again the links I quoted about Deluge myths exclusively answering what you wrote "You know what all the flood myths of the world have in common with one another, Oscar? Not one of them is ANYTHING ALIKE."
The fact that you say the same thing again demonstrates you're not reading the links I provide. Why repeat answering to that or post the links to you if you don't want? If you read, you would've know even details about the Flood are repeated. When we have universal legend and not local, we must consider there are certian truth about it. Specially in places where there are no seas and they have the myth! Again, the people who have thought reading merely Werner Keller's The Bible Was Right that Flood was local place in Mesopotamia...they have the right to believe whatever they like and yet they remain ignorant of geological analysis. Ishtar has provided other interesting links. All of them are wrong according to wise a$$ "smart" and objective spoiled girl Brooke. Can we dialogue anymore with her? I doubt it.
A question you ask about Everest "If these were formed during the Flood, how did they reach their present height, and when were the valleys between them eroded away? Keep in mind that many valleys were clearly carved by glacial erosion, which is a slow process". Why don't you ask a geologist if he REALLY TRUST the data provided in his science. Be sure to ask a geologist who's your friend. Ask him if he trust in what method exactly before you answer. All the methods to measure time are wrong, we can't depend on none of them. I even quoted a link about granite and surely you didn't read it either! The very fact there's submarine fossil evidence in many tall mountains is a strong indication they were once in the sea and the forces push the mountains up. That's why I said mountains were not as high as Everest in those days! So the Deluge didn't cover high mountains because all of them were smaller in those days.
After all much discussion Brooke is going exactly where I'm leading her. When she wrote "As for the mountains not always being that size, sure, if you put the flood story back millions of years ago that might have a point." Again the issue is TIME. So I ask you, do you know about time measured by scientists? Why do you trust so much?
Among the scientist you mention is Dobzansky. He is the one who did experiences with flies submitting them into mutation with gamma rays. It was done cos they wanted to do something equivalent to evolution of man cos generations of fly pass rapidly cos they live short life. Mutations did add feet to flies , change color of eyes, put eyes on their wings and after awhile they got back to their original form due to atavic law. In other words in spite of human intervention the flies NEVER EVOLVED INTO ANOTHER SPECIE which is what was expected. They didn't transform into scorpion or spider, they continued to be flies in their times (equivalent to millions of years in human evolution).That is Darwinism.Biologists believe in evolution (cos if they don't ther are gonna be expelled from their universities in neo-Inquisition) so they have to mumble their belief in secrecy. In fact the very word 'God' is forbidden cos it doesn't sound "scientific" enough. Are you naïve too besides being stupid? Evolution as a term 'evolved' just like term 'macroevolution' really was another clever invention added later on.

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inca
 

[Brooke]

oscar

Member
Member # 1390

Rate Member   posted 12-16-2005 05:18 AM                       
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Brooke is the kind of person whose intelectual limitations are so reduce that's a task of patience the very effort of a dialogue. Have you ever read Gulliver adventures? How do you explain the author mentioned Mars has 2 moons and peculiar orbit more than a century before this was discovered by scientific community or the fact Assyrians mentioned the demon bird of Nergal in the same area where it was found Cygnus Black Hole or the Mayans mentioning the black hole in the centre of our galaxy as we know today. What did they have? What on earth is a person like you in this forum? Of course, anybody can come and discuss but don't you think you're misplaced and need a little understanding before daring to come here to "discuss"? Nothing personal but some of us THOUGHT LIKE YOU decades ago and we "evolved" breaking the chains of what you think is "science". You need to upgrade.
Morrison, I don't know what you "heard" or not. We better read something. In fact there are many meanings in the Scripture and we need to know the circumstances in those days. What stops a group to be in a place. These are things also explained in the Bible. Israel now is a small place with full difficulties with Arabs where the governments need to set walls and fences in specific areas. This will give you a hint of what I'm talking about. Jericho walls do have ruins. Did you know the way the walls collapsed are irregular like devastated by earthquake or ultrasound and infrasound. I suppose we ought to talk why Israelites had to spin 7 times around the city and the use of trumpets made of silver. I suppose if I say they used magic you would say I'm ignorant but even Isralite and Egyptians used special magic, for example the ritual of writing things and then wet them in a bowl of water. Scientist Masaru Ematu discovered molecules of water are indeed changed like hexagrams when you write certain messages or set some proper music while molecules have bizarre shapes with 'negative' messages and hard rock.

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inca
 

[Brooke]

oscar

Member
Member # 1390

Rate Member   posted 12-16-2005 05:25 AM                       
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In fact Freemasons in American gvernment have been building pyramids and brought huge obelisks from Egypt to France and USA not because of ignorance but because they know how to produce "magic" based upon physical laws we're just beginning to re-discover. What happened in Jericho is from that nature. Sodomah and Gomorrah was not only salt thing. The deposit of salt was in places with steam or vapor. The Hebrew term is she was 'vaporized' like in Hiroshima and Nagasaki. The cloud like mushroom and covered in caves and the episode of daughters having sex with their dad was cos they thought life vanished from the planet, not "moral" story.

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inca
 

[Brooke]

oscar

Member
Member # 1390

Rate Member   posted 12-16-2005 06:16 AM                       
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Evolution Fiasco:
www.apologeticspress.org/articles/2644

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inca
 

[Brooke]

oscar

Member
Member # 1390

Rate Member   posted 12-16-2005 06:40 AM                       
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Who knows about Pangea really?
www.thetruthishere.com/maps1.html
www.earth360.com/his-atlantis.html
Greenhouse effect in proto-earth:
www.thetruthishere.com/canopy.html
Plants 3 km below ice in Greenland:
www.terradaily.com/2004/040807175825.lnecklp2.html

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inca
 

[Brooke]

 
oscar

Member
Member # 1390

Rate Member   posted 12-16-2005 06:54 AM                       
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Again, when we are dealing with time and I have personally discussed with geologists, secretly they distrust the data offered officialy. So, I'm curious to wait til kingdom comes the theme offered by Brooke when he talks about "evolution" in a theme which doesn't belong here directly. I already wrote the links of scientific community (repeated by National Geographic) admitting there's water at least 5 times more than the oceans beneath the earth. Do you imagine how much water was on earth when it was only a unique ocean Panthalassa? I mean unique ocean not because I trust that, the fact is no geologist can say for sure and this stupid Brooke thinks he knows about "science".

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inca
 
 

[Brooke]

oscar

Member
Member # 1390

Rate Member   posted 12-16-2005 07:34 AM                       
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In the Bible we see not only the description of a Deluge but waters bursting from beneath. So, the canopy is not the only theory explaining the thing. Many asteroids stroke the earth and many catastrophes, not just a big one. One big asteroid did a crack around the planet that spread in 2 hours letting steam out to stratosphere and earth activity was triggered.
Still, some might argue that perhaps the great mountain chains were actually created by the turbulent floodwaters of the deluge. There are several problems with this idea. Mountains are understood to be formed through processes involving plate tectonics and volcanism, not just water. All geological projections, including mountains, are worn away by the action of water. And yet the geologists know mountains were shorter in the past. There have been underwater chains of mountains as a consequence of the flood. If we wanna critize the text we need to know it first and in fact if we are willing to make many questions about it, we need to use the same criteria and ask what can we ask about science as well. Can the experts explain all the answers as they say? I don't believe in Deluge just because the Bible says it so but because of several reasons I have investigated and the universal legends where there were not local floods and even the same story described in Chinese scripture, etc. I did some study of geology and genes of animal species in the past that could fit in a huge ark with as many tons as Titanic. But even if it's a metaphor nothing will be altered in me. I don't depend on a book. I am just curios how deep is the ignorance of people who critize and know nothing neither in science nor in religion. They are in a limbo-purgatory level. When scientist find a human hammer in the same geological strata of dinosaurs you need to think about it seriously. When ancient civilizations in Peru, in Colombia, Ecuador, Bolivia represented tiranosaurs and diplodocus or stegosaurs that seemingly they never saw, we need to ask why and consider if it's true or not the allegations ther are modern fake fiasco or not. Specially since lunged-fish Celenchantus was still alive after alleguedly millions of years and many crocodiles and sharks or insects and several animals well preserved in fossils didn't change so much except in size. That means the scientific dogma is about to collapse like castle made of sand and that makes uncomfortable and trigger the wrath of the defenders of the neo-sacred cow "science". Let it be!
Whenever you wanna talk about time in so-called evolution, open a tread, Brooke. If you don't, don't worry, who knows I have a little extra patience that is running off in order to take you out of misery.

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inca
 

[Brooke]

oscar

Member
Member # 1390

Rate Member   posted 12-16-2005 07:39 AM                       
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About the term "kind" in Noah's account, allow yourself a little understanding:
http://www.christiananswers.net/q-crs/baraminology.html

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inca
 

[Brooke]

oscar

Member
Member # 1390

Rate Member   posted 12-16-2005 07:45 AM                       
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Isn't it interesting science had to use a scientific name based upon Hebrew term? The term "baraminology" means study of created kinds. It was coined from the Hebrew words "bara" (created) and "min" (kind). The same happens with embryo in a tube doubling the chromosome X into XX when they started to use the term "parthenogenesis" taken from Greek used in the Bible "virgin" (Mary), that is "virgin origin". Event the frequence "hertz" is taken from Hebrew same word meaning "earth". But I suppose Brooke doesn't know anything about this EITHER.

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inca
 

[Brooke]

Tom Hebert1
Member
Member # 2835

  posted 12-16-2005 08:55 AM                       
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So Oscar, does this mean you believe in Pangea or not? I could not tell based on the links you listed. 

http://forums.atlantisrising.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=15;t=000522;p=3

[Brooke]

oscar

Member
Member # 1390

Rate Member   posted 12-16-2005 09:35 AM                       
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I DO but ignore -as geologists- the forces involved in the process. You tell me, Grand Canyon was formed in millions of years or in minutes?
http://web.archive.org/web/20010816173706/www.creationism.org/sthelens/wonders.htm

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inca
 

[Brooke]

oscar

Member
Member # 1390

Rate Member   posted 12-16-2005 09:38 AM                       
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http://pathlights.com/ce_encyclopedia/04earth4.htm

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inca