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Danube Delta Holds Answers to ‘Noah’s Flood’ Debate

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Kai Fonder
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« on: January 24, 2009, 05:13:14 pm »

News Release : Danube Delta Holds Answers to ‘Noah’s Flood’ Debate

January 22, 2009
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January 22, 2009
Source: Media Relations


Did a catastrophic flood of biblical proportions drown the shores of the Black Sea 9,500 years ago, wiping out early Neolithic settlements around its perimeter? A geologist with the Woods Hole Oceanographic Institution (WHOI) and two Romanian colleagues report in the January issue of Quaternary Science Reviews that, if the flood occurred at all, it was much smaller than previously proposed by other researchers.

Using sediment cores from the delta of the Danube River, which empties into the Black Sea, the researchers determined sea level was approximately 30 meters below present levels—rather than the 80 meters others hypothesized.

“We don’t see evidence for a catastrophic flood as others have described,” said Liviu Giosan, a geologist in the WHOI Geology and Geophysics Department.

Ten thousand years ago, at the end of the last glacial period, the Black Sea was a lake—cut off from the Sea of Marmara and beyond it the Mediterranean by the Bosphorus sill. Debate in geological and archaeological circles has focused on whether, as glaciers melted and global sea levels began to rise, the Bosphorus sill overflowed gradually or whether a flood broke through the sill, drowning some 70,000 square kilometers and wiping out early Neolithic civilizations in the region. In addition to questions about the rate of the flood, investigators continue to debate the extent of the flood -- a debate centered around what the level of the Black Sea was 9,500 years ago.   

In the late 1990s, Columbia University researchers Bill Ryan and Walter Pitman examined the geological evidence and estimated the Black Sea level at the time of the flood was approximately 80 meters lower than present day levels. They suggested that the impact of a Black Sea flood could have forced the movement of early agriculturist groups to central Europe and established the story of Noah and his ark, as well as flood myths among other peoples.

The source of the uncertainty fueling the Black Sea flood debate is the difficulty of finding reliable sea level markers to date the flood.  “Sea level is like the Holy Grail,” said Giosan. “You can’t really talk about a flood if you don’t know the exact levels of the sea level in both the Black Sea and outside it in the Mediterranean. And that’s what we tried to find.”

Scientists examine the geochemistry of sedimentary deposits for evidence of fresh water fauna and the morphology of features on the seafloor, trying to infer drowned beaches or wind-generated dunes, but there are pitfalls associated with these indicators. Sediments are subject to erosion by waves and currents, and sand deposits formed by underwater currents can misleadingly be interpreted as dunes or beaches. “Instead, what we use as indicators of sea level is the level of the Danube River delta plain, an immense landform that cannot be mistaken for something else,” Giosan stated. 

A delta is formed when a river empties into a body of water. It dumps sediments and builds a flat plain—the delta—that is within a couple of meters of the shore and is, therefore, an indicator of sea level. In 2006, a team led by Liviu Giosan showed that contrary to Soviet-era data suggesting large oscillations of Black Sea level, the development phases of the Danube delta demonstrate that the level was more or less as today in the last 6000 years.

To extend their record back in time beyond 6000 years, in 2007, Giosan and his colleagues drilled a new core to 42 meters depth at the mouth of the Danube River, the largest river emptying into the Black Sea. Their goal was to reconstruct the history of that part of the delta—before and after the flood—through an examination of the sediments. In analyzing the delta sediment from the new core as well as others taken in the region, Giosan’s team discovered fresh water deposits of the newly forming delta dating back approximately 10,000 years, subsequently overlaid by fine marine sediments, followed by the modern delta deposits.

“It’s amazing,” said Giosan. “The early delta was forming in a fresh water lake just a couple of hundred years before the flood. And after the flood you have these marine deposits overlaying the whole delta region.”

Using sediment cores to reconstruct the delta with accurate dates is challenging. To attach a date to the layers of a core, scientists use radiocarbon dating on the fossil shells of animals found in the core—for instance, clams or snails. But in energetic areas, waves can erode sediment on the seabed and heave up older shells, depositing them in “younger” sediments. To address these concerns, Giosan and his team used an approach that had not been used before in the Black Sea. They employed high resolution dating performed at WHOI’s Accelerator Mass Spectrometer (AMS) facility and only used “articulated” bivalves – those where both sides of the shell were still attached as they are when alive. The shells are held together by an organic substance that degrades easily when they are dead, so the valves usually separate when the animal dies. When bivalves are found intact, it means they were not moved by waves and they are likely to be in situ.

Once the researchers dated and reconstructed the delta plain, they could determine sea level for the Black Sea. They found that the Black Sea level at the time of the flood was around 30 meters below present levels. Determining how much water poured over the Bosphorus sill remains problematic. There is no direct reconstruction of the sea level for the Marmara, but, according to Giosan, indirect methods put it at approximately 5 to 10 meters above the Black Sea level at the time of the flood.

“So if this is true, it means that the magnitude of the Black Sea flood was 5 or 10 meters but not 50 to 60 meters,” said Giosan. “Still, having flooded the Black Sea by 5 meters can have important effects, for example, drowning of the Danube Delta and putting an area of 2,000 square kilometers of prime agricultural land underwater. This has important implications for the archaeology and anthropology of southern Europe, as well as on our understanding of how the unique environment of the Black Sea formed.”

Funding for this project was provided by the WHOI Coastal Ocean Institute.

The Woods Hole Oceanographic Institution is a private, independent organization in Falmouth, Mass., dedicated to marine research, engineering, and higher education. Established in 1930 on a recommendation from the National Academy of Sciences, its primary mission is to understand the oceans and their interaction with the Earth as a whole, and to communicate a basic understanding of the oceans’ role in the changing global environment.

Last updated: January 23, 2009

http://www.whoi.edu/page.do?pid=7545&tid=282&cid=54863&ct=162
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Kai Fonder
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« Reply #1 on: January 24, 2009, 05:13:53 pm »



Geologist Liviu Giosan at work on a core in WHOI's McLean lab. Giosan and his colleagues used cores from the delta of the Danube River, which empties into the Black Sea, to reconstruct sea level for the Black Sea as far back as 10,000 years. Their work showed, if the flood occurred at all, it was much smaller than previously proposed by other researchers. (Tom Kleindinst, Woods Hole Oceanographic Institution)
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Kai Fonder
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« Reply #2 on: January 24, 2009, 05:14:18 pm »



Ten thousand years ago, at the end of the last glacial period, the Black Sea was a lake, cut off from the Sea of Marmara and beyond it the Mediterranean by the Bosphorus sill. Some researchers estimate Black Sea level at that time was 80 meters below present day (their hypothesized extent of the Black Lake at that level is represented by dark blue water). They claim a flood 9,500 years ago brought sea level to approximately 30 meters below present levels (the flooded area is represented by light blue water). Such a flood would have inundated 70,000 square kilometers and wiped out early Neolithic civilizations in the region. (Jack Cook, Woods Hole Oceanographic Institution)
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Kai Fonder
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« Reply #3 on: January 24, 2009, 05:14:35 pm »



Giosan and his colleagues estimate that the Black Sea was around 30 meters below present day levels (Black Lake is represented by dark blue water) before a breach of the Bosporus sill 9,500 years ago raised levels to a maximum of 20 meters |(the flooded area is represented by light blue water). Their estimates mean that the magnitude of the Black Sea flood was 5 or 10 meters but not 50 to 60 meters. (Jack Cook, Woods Hole Oceanographic Institution)
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« Reply #4 on: January 24, 2009, 05:14:55 pm »



The breach of the Bosporus sill connected the Black Sea to the Sea of Marmara and the world ocean. As glaciers melted and global sea levels began to rise, the Black Sea also rose, bringing it to its present day level. (Jack Cook, Woods Hole Oceanographic Institution)
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« Reply #5 on: January 29, 2009, 11:47:07 am »

The flooding of the Med into the Black is all very interesting, but likely has nothing to do with Noah. It was a local flood, not global. Certainly natural disasters can change the "world" of a primitive hunter-gatherer and might become the subject of legend or myth.

The entire Genesis story is a complex one and likely there is much more there than can be taken literally. Edgar Cayce had a unique talent that not only helped thousands heal maladies their doctors could not, but delved into many secrets held in human pre-history. One of these was a peek into the past which revealed that Noah's Flood occurred about 28,000 BC, at  the same time as the second upheaval in Atlantis. The word of a clairvoyant is hardly scientific evidence, no matter how good he was, but there is an interesting connection.

I'm curious if scientists have found any evidence to support Cayce's date. Of course, the Flood was brief -- only a year long. Any sedimentation during such a brief period would have been slight, especially if the entire world were flooded (there would have been no runoff after the flooding stopped, or perhaps even before, when the mountains were covered).

Did the Flood actually happen? Taking the strange wording in Genesis as a puzzle, it might be solved by finding numeric clues that render dates compatible with science. For instance, humanity is, according to science, far older than 6000 years (from the literal interpretation of Genesis). Cayce also revealed that one of the earliest events in human pre-history was 10.5 million years ago. That would place Adam at least that far back. There is a code in Genesis that reveals these two dates -- 28,000 BC for the Flood and 10.5 Mya for Adam. And the code explains many of the enigmatic phrases in Genesis.

Some of this may sound as though I'm going off-topic, but bear with me.

More important than the dates is the reason for the Flood. The 28,000 BC date coincides with the disappearance of a near-human species -- Neanderthal. Genesis talks of "men" having "daughters" and that these "daughters" were found to be fair by the "sons of God." And this led to some dire wickedness prompting the need for the worldwide flood. Who were the "sons" and who were these "daughters?" Perhaps Genesis 1:26 offers a clue -- that "man" was created in God's image. But what is "God?" It would seem that the source of creation is a non-physical (spiritual) being with the conscious power of creation. That would make us spiritual beings with the power of creation. A chapter later in Genesis, it talks of God creating "man" again! This time from the dust of the ground. Now, wait a minute. The image of God is definitely not dirt,  so this second "man" is not in the image of God. Could it be that "man" has a dual nature -- both spirit and physical? Could it be that man is a spiritual child of God wrapped by Homo sapiens flesh? Yet the immortal spirit is asleep.

The purpose of Homo sapiens might have been to allow the children of God a method of waking up. When asleep, conversations are very difficult. Having a mortal body allows the sleeping spirit a medium through which they can be "awake" enough to discuss their reawakening. Homo sapiens was that medium. And thus, Homo sapiens with their harbored spirit (souls) were the "sons of God." So, what were the "daughters of men?" Homo neanderthalensis (Neanderthal) were a near-human species that may not have had the capacity for intelligent speech. Without that, civilization would have been impossible. If the "sons of God" found Neanderthal women to be fair (cute, beautiful, hot), their children may likely have been incapable of intelligent speech, thus jeopardizing humanity's chances for creating civilization. And the relative safety of civilization is critical for allowing humans the free time to pursue spiritual things -- to have their "day of rest" (their Sabbath).

So, the reason for the Flood? Divine genocide targeting Neanderthal? I would seem so. And it would seem that the spiritual quest hinted at in Genesis has been under way for a far longer time than many had thought possible. But with the power of creation, what is not possible?

The Danube may offer clues to a flood, but likely not The Flood -- the one of Noah.
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« Reply #6 on: January 31, 2009, 05:33:24 pm »

Hello Lonestar,

One thing we need to concern ourselves is this question:  how can the ancients have known of a worldwide flood when they didn't even know how big that the world was?  When you think of it, it tends to render all the arguments for Noah a bit moot.
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« Reply #7 on: February 03, 2009, 06:05:32 am »

One thing we need to concern ourselves is this question:  how can the ancients have known of a worldwide flood when they didn't even know how big that the world was?  When you think of it, it tends to render all the arguments for Noah a bit moot.

You bring up an interesting point, but if Noah and his family told their descendants that the Flood covered the mountain tops, then likely the Flood covered the world. The only way this could prove wrong is if there were a very, very high plateau somewhere that escape such a deep flood. Was there such a place? I don't think so.

On the same subject, though, the Bible cannot be taken literally. There is a lot more happening there than a simple reading can reveal.

Genesis 7:20 says, "Fifteen cubits upward did the waters prevail; and the mountains were covered." Fifteen cubits upward from what point? That's not a lot of depth -- only about 22.5 feet, if a cubit is 18 inches. Does the wording mean that the water level was 15 cubits above the tallest mountain. That would seem to match the meaning of "prevail."

I don't think Noah got out and measured. So, did he get the information from God? An agency of God? Who knows.

What would be really interesting is to find some kind of evidence that there was a worldwide flood 28,000 BCE. Otherwise, from the scientist's point-of-view, this is an interesting discussion, but nothing yet profound.

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« Reply #8 on: February 03, 2009, 05:15:22 pm »

Welcome to the forum, Carl. 

I don't think there was ever a worldwide flood, in recent times anyway.  3.3 billion years ago, the earth actually was mostly covered with water, but that was a far cry from Noah's time.

The amount of water neccessary to flood the earth would defyu comprehension, and, if by some chance that did happen, the atmosphere would be so dense it would be inhabitable for people.

But let's say there was a local flood of great proportion that affected the Middle East.  That would explain why the flood stories of Mesopatamia, the Israelites and the Greeks are all so similar.  Obviously, the Black Sea or the Danube would be the most likely candidates!
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« Reply #9 on: March 09, 2009, 11:25:24 am »

Dear ............ SIR,

You talk about a  " Second-upheaval"   ( after the Quarternary lake burst ?) of Atlantis I never heard of that phrase, before,  can you enlighten me a bit on that ?

I have Dated the Flood of NOAH( actually: NOACH which is an abbrevation of: SARGON-1- of - AGADE/ Accad.)at ca. 1255 bc.
THIS flood occurred in South- Araby the -BIBLICAL-original/real" FLOOD" was of DEUKALION which occurred in: 1055 bc.
Untold to the Grand- Public( that means YOU !)in 1949 dr Velikovsky revised the official Early- dating to later Dates( 1500 bc became 1.000 etc.) He was demonized for various not history-but culture-related silly reasons,  in the Press for daring to tamper with Mainstream ERROR-dating !)

In Exchange if you are -really-intrested not dismissing my theory as" quaint", I reveal to you my Bluehue theory on Atlantis:

BLUEHUE's " Rule -of- Thumb " to locate the 'original' Atlantis:

1: >  ATLANTIS is a faked name
(by a latin translation ERROR.) the original greek-name was ATHE( today: ' Aden'.)

2: >  Atlantic- OCEAN is a faked name
( Latin compilers managed to joint TWO seas for the composite: Atlantic-Sea of Atlas & Known- World- Ocean.)

3: >  Plato's DATES were overstated by factor TEN,
not from alledged wrongly copied egyptian Signs but from greek Sign for:  1.000:" X "
translated by latin compilers as meaning " Multipy - by - TEN " (>>> " x " .)

CONCLUSION:

Atlantis was not an oceanic Isle but a Volcano-caldeira in ras- Aden(= South- Araby desert.Wink
The famous FLOOD/ Tsunami was merely the SEA of RUB -al- CHALI " emptying-out " onto the Coastal Atlantis Capital
The-latest- DATE of this DELUGE is 855 bc( the same Date that the Bosphorus-Boghazi / Dardanelles cracked open (by a distant  impact-friction.)

NON of this Forum-members as of 1-Jan-2009 have given comments on my statements since I joined in: 2007,
They rfound my off mainstream conclusions " Too far Fetched " Yet they are intelligent( but gullible-)people !
The fainted excuse I have had was " I didn't realize at the time that you were on to someting "

Yet other Theorists with Geologically- sound stories were given credulence for an Atlantis DEMISE dated 10.-to - 8.000 bc !

Well,  ignorance is Bliss!
Especially for those persaons NOT familiar with the Greek Myths !
If supposed geologists are not able to read that Plato's atlantic Ocean never existed but referred to TWO Seas
how for" Middle- Earth's sake "  are they expecting to find the " original " Atlantis location ? I did it in 2005 but was belittled.

CAYCE may be a great Faith-healer but he did not guess the THREE Reference Points of " BlueHue " !

The flooding of the Med into the Black is all very interesting, but likely has nothing to do with Noah. It was a local flood, not global. Certainly natural disasters can change the "world" of a primitive hunter-gatherer and might become the subject of legend or myth.

The entire Genesis story is a complex one and likely there is much more there than can be taken literally.history. One of these was a peek into the past which revealed that Noah's Flood occurred about 28,000 BC, at  the same time as the second upheaval in Atlantis.
So, the reason for the Flood? the spiritual quest hinted at in Genesis has been under way for a far longer time than many had thought possible.
The Danube may offer clues to a flood, but likely not The Flood -- the one of Noah.

« Last Edit: March 09, 2009, 11:41:07 am by BlueHue » Report Spam   Logged

( Blue's)THEORY, locating"original" Atlantis( in Aden-Yemen.)
1: ATLANTIS =Fake=Latin name, original Greek: ATHE(=a Region in Aden)
2: Atlantic-OCEAN=Greek: RIVER-of-Atlas+also" Known "World-OCEAN(=Red-Sea)
3: Greek-obsolete-Numeral 'X' caused Plato's Atlantisdate:9000=900
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« Reply #10 on: March 09, 2009, 11:46:10 am »

I suppose that my " #3-Rules- of -Thumb " to locate the " original " Atlantis is to difficult to comprehend ? For simple but intelligent people ? Geology method is barking up the wrong tree and doesn't come into finding the " original ' Atlantis though.By Subscript is often taken for a borderline motif
« Last Edit: April 08, 2009, 09:47:59 am by BlueHue » Report Spam   Logged

( Blue's)THEORY, locating"original" Atlantis( in Aden-Yemen.)
1: ATLANTIS =Fake=Latin name, original Greek: ATHE(=a Region in Aden)
2: Atlantic-OCEAN=Greek: RIVER-of-Atlas+also" Known "World-OCEAN(=Red-Sea)
3: Greek-obsolete-Numeral 'X' caused Plato's Atlantisdate:9000=900
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« Reply #11 on: March 10, 2009, 02:06:51 am »

Welcome to the forum, Carl. 

I don't think there was ever a worldwide flood, in recent times anyway.  3.3 billion years ago, the earth actually was mostly covered with water, but that was a far cry from Noah's time.

The amount of water neccessary to flood the earth would defyu comprehension, and, if by some chance that did happen, the atmosphere would be so dense it would be inhabitable for people.

But let's say there was a local flood of great proportion that affected the Middle East.  That would explain why the flood stories of Mesopatamia, the Israelites and the Greeks are all so similar.  Obviously, the Black Sea or the Danube would be the most likely candidates!


Thank you, Twilight of the Gods, for your warm welcome. Glad to be here.

I understand your concerns about Noah's Flood. That much water would indeed defy comprehension. That much water would have to come from off-planet, or be created whole-cloth. If God exists, then either one would be easy. I've experienced miracles first hand and an out-of-body incident (non-traumatic) with full visual ability, so, even though I'm a scientist, I know with a certainty that there are some things outside the purview of science.

Certainly, local floods could have led to myths. The putative sinking of Atlantis was a local event, but it may have created a worldwide impact. If you study the myth of Athena's birth, you may see some striking similarities to the story of Atlantis and its refugees. Yet, it is possible that none of these had anything to do with Noah's Flood.

There is so much in Genesis that is symbolic and not to be taken literally. How much of the Flood story can we take as real, and how much is merely allegory? It is interesting, though, how Edgar Cayce mentions two dates for events found in Genesis, and a simple and elegant code I discovered there says the same thing (to within 1% of Cayce's rounded approximations). These new dates also reveal what could have been the real reason for the Flood -- the elimination of Neanderthal as a genetic threat. The code I discovered also shows the Kabbalistic "Tree of Life" embedded in Genesis 4 and 5. Some historians have suspected that the Kabbalah (Jewish mysticism) had roots in antiquity, but those historians had nothing with which to prove it. This may be one such proof.

As a scientist, I'm all too aware of the possibility of connecting dots that have no business being connected. The fanciful "face on Mars" is only one example of pattern recognition leading nowhere.

If Noah's Flood was intended only as metaphor or allegory, then this discussion is entirely moot. If God moved millions of cubic miles of water from somewhere else, then moved it back, then we may at some point find the evidence science demands.

LoneStar77
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« Reply #12 on: April 08, 2009, 09:58:11 am »

Dear.............................CARL,

I suggest that you give a comment on my Subscript:

" NOACH" was SARGON- 1 of Accad,  a Chaldean King that " Flodded" south- Araby
 with Landsettlers around 1250 bc. (" Officially" that is: in  2100 bc,  but that's a " wrong number ".)

EZDRAS the Bible translator saw the original story of a violent conques
 by the TEN" original" Hebrew Tribes called HYKSOS.

and turned it into a " peacefull settlement"    where these senceless VIOLENCE
 would come from a( Virtual-)FLOOD and not from these
("marauding-) Perpetrators"!

There is so much in Genesis that is symbolic and not to be taken literally.
If Noah's Flood was intended only as metaphor or allegory,
then this discussion is entirely moot. If God moved millions of cubic miles of water , then we may at some point find the evidence science demands.

LoneStar77
(Carl Martin)
« Last Edit: April 08, 2009, 10:03:09 am by BlueHue » Report Spam   Logged

( Blue's)THEORY, locating"original" Atlantis( in Aden-Yemen.)
1: ATLANTIS =Fake=Latin name, original Greek: ATHE(=a Region in Aden)
2: Atlantic-OCEAN=Greek: RIVER-of-Atlas+also" Known "World-OCEAN(=Red-Sea)
3: Greek-obsolete-Numeral 'X' caused Plato's Atlantisdate:9000=900
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