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How was the Universe Created?

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Author Topic: How was the Universe Created?  (Read 2430 times)
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« Reply #120 on: August 17, 2008, 03:40:18 am »


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   posted 05-02-2006 12:11 AM                       
God did not create the Universe
By Vexen Crabtree 1999 Jun 10

This page
... briefly iterates through some similar arguments, each answers some similar assertions that theists make about the logical necessity of God. The existence of God is not enough to explain the existence of the Universe. If the Universe can logically exist, then no God is needed to create it. If it is valid to say "everything has a cause except God", it is more likely that everything has a cause except the Universe. If God doesn't need a cause because it is infinite, it is more likely that the natural Universe has existed forever and therefore doesn't need a cause.

The existence of God is not enough to explain the existence of the Universe, 1999 June
The Universe cannot be younger than God or Logic is more powerful than God, 2002 Aug
Is the Universe logically possible?
Everything must have a cause therefore God exists, 2002 Aug 23
God doesn't need a cause because he has existed forever, 2002 Aug 23


1. The existence of God is not enough to explain the existence of the Universe
By Vexen Crabtree, 1999 June 10

We all find ourselves asking what the origin of existence is. Where did it all start? The Big Bang theory is one theory, there are many other theories, for example Teloscopic Creation (where matter is repeated in - or wraps around - the middle, and expands, for infinity) also the Biblical Theory.

At some point in time, the universe was created. If the universe was infinite then it was never created - this is something that could be true but it would certainly mean that a god did not create it. Within the context of this discussion, for the sake of the theists, we will assume the universe is finite. Now given that something must have caused the universe to exist the question is, what was it? And what caused that?

"Why could the cause of the universe not be something like an eternal, immutable God who needs no cause for his existence? Well, the mere existence of God, or of any other object, could not causally explain why the universe came into existence. It must be something about God which does the explaining, such as his willing the universe to exist. But has he, for all time willed the universe to exist? Why then, did it not come into existence sooner?
"If there is a cause of the Universe's coming into existence at precisely the moment it did, then it is something which obtained just before that event. We are then led to ask why that cause obtained when it did."

Robin Le Poidevin, "Arguing for Atheism", pp13

What this is saying is: If God created the universe, then God existed before the universe did. Why did God create the universe at the time He did? Why not earlier, or later?

The problem of what caused God to create the Universe pretty much means that there were other things going on before God created the universe and this is a contradiction! So, it cannot be true that God created the Universe. It is also true that God cannot have created Time - in order for time to be created it must be finite, which of course it can't be, because the creation of time must have occurred before time, which is not possible.

This is a problem if we want to believe in standard monotheism - for it cannot be that a god created the universe. If god did not create Time, or the Universe, what else can we extrapolate that it did not create? It must be the things that are properties of Time and of the Universe and the things that defined those. So, such things as the Dimensions of the Universe, major physical constants and the mass/energy sum total were not created by God.

God(s), if any exist, must be therefore be products of the Universe, perhaps evolving during the initial expansion of the universe? Our god would be more local, not infinite and not omniscient. Omniscience requires a certain non-physical nature, and as god is a product of the universe it could not be omnipotent, omniscient or omnipresent. I.e., not all-knowing all-powerful or all-seeing.

2. The Universe cannot be younger than God or Logic is more powerful than God
By Vexen Crabtree, 2002 Aug 27

2.1. Instant Creation
If God is all-knowing, then the instant God was conscious it would have known all the pros and cons of creating a Universe and knew that it was going to do it. Therefore there is no reason for God to wait. If God chooses to wait then what is the reason?... there must be a reason. This reason, to cause God to wait, would be a limit on his omnipotence. If there is some reason why God hesitates in creating the Universe then at some point that reason no longer existed and he went on to create the Universe. What caused the "reason" for the wait to go away? Therefore the Universe must have existed for infinity, it must have been automatically created the same instant God was.

2.2. Logical cause and effect is more powerful than God's will
It seems that if God is all-powerful, there could have been no reason for God not to auto-create: Therefore God created the Universe as soon as God itself was conscious or omniscient. This means that the Universe cannot be younger than God; as God would have auto-created the Universe. (He didn't need to wait for planning permission, I'm sure).

The Universe must be infinite, like God, or God itself also follows rules of logic and reason. (I.e., if God did not auto-create, there was a reason, if there was a reason then God is following logical rules which were beyond its own control). There is a contradiction. Something is wrong. God has either not existed for all time, the Universe is infinite like God or God is not omnipotent.

Is the Universe logically possible?
3. Is the Universe logically possible?1
"God is thought of a being who is all-powerfull, but can he make a square-circle, or a triangular-square? If he can do these things, then it would push God into the realm of that which cannot possibly exist. This is why most philosophers understand the meaning of "omnipotence" as the ability to do that which is logically possible, and any questions as to whether He can do things that are logically impossible are thought to be meaningless.
This is why I want to ask, is it logically impossible for the universe to come from nothing? If it is logically impossible, then god cannot do it. However, if it is logically possible, then it could be reasonably said that the universe came on its' own. Then to postulate the idea of God might be explanitorily superflous."

By Samuel Owens in an email 2002 Nov 05

4. Everything must have a cause therefore God exists
By Vexen Crabtree, 2002 Aug 23

This statement is sometimes used as argument that there must be a god. But, it doesn't work. Because if god was not created by something, then god exists without a cause. And therefore the argument is "Everything except god must have a cause". If this argument is valid then it must also be valid to say "Everything except the Universe must have a cause".

Employing Occam's Razor we see that as a general rule of thumb, by this argument, the Universe is more likely to exist without a Creator than with one, as in both cases there is a single "uncaused cause" but without a god there is a lesser degree of complexity. Another reason for it being more likely that the uncaused cause is the Universe is that God requires many properties and complexities such as thought, logic, consciousness: All of them must have been derived from somewhere. There are fewer unanswered questions if we discard the idea of God.

5. God doesn't need a cause because it has existed forever
By Vexen Crabtree, 2002 Aug 23

In order to avoid the problem of the Universe being an uncaused cause some say that god has always existed and has therefore never been created: It therefore needs no cause. But I find this is an argument that can be used in conjunction with big bang theory to prove, again, that god is not likely to exist as a first cause. Because according to some Big Bang theories there has been an infinite number of cycles of Big Bang / Big Crunch (where the Universe ends in a big black hole after contracting) and that the Universe has existed forever. If it is possible for something to exist forever and not need a cause then it is likely to be the Universe, not God, and once again we can theorize that this is likely to be true because there would be no reason for god if it was true that something could exist with no cause.

Big Bang models describe the creation of all the dimensions of space including time itself, so that to ask "what happened before the big bang?" is meaningless in the same way as asking "what was god doing before it created time?".
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