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what was the language of Atlantis?

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rockessence
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« Reply #15 on: May 19, 2007, 05:41:33 pm »

Hi Elric,
The above that you quoted I got from YOUR post #3 above, and the link mentioned  came up because the picture of the petroglyphs did not copy to my post.

The wheel of letters is from the Alphernas Beten, the Rot (root) language as told of in the Bock saga. 

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« Reply #16 on: May 19, 2007, 08:17:38 pm »

Hi Elric,
The above that you quoted I got from YOUR post #3 above, and the link mentioned  came up because the picture of the petroglyphs did not copy to my post.

The wheel of letters is from the Alphernas Beten, the Rot (root) language as told of in the Bock saga. 

Margaret


The language supposed to be closest of all languages to the original North-European language is supposed to exist in Scandinavia. See the "Paleolithic Continuation Theory". http://www.continuitas.com/intro.html

The various dialects of Scandinavia are still of the very same language, obviously sharing a common origin.   
According to Swedish research the dialects spoken on Gotland and the cost of the Botnic Sea seems to be the oldest of the Scandinanvian dialects.

The circle of modern letters as refered as "the alphabet" by the Bock-saga, is commonly known - with small differences -  in all Scandinavian grammars.

The coastal population of Finland have traditionally been known to be the easternmost part of Fenno-Scandia, where "Scandinavian" have been spoken. Meanwhile the finno-ugrian have been spoken all over the Finnish inland, as well as in Carelia, western Russia, the Baltic States and south to Hungary.

In Fenno-Ugrian the Scandinavian dialect of south- and west-coast Finland have been named "root-peopole" ("ruotilainen") and their language "root-speaking" ("ruotkielli").

The discrepancy of the Finnish words "ruot-kielli" and "ruot-sin-kielli" describes the "root of the coastal Finns" that are TALKING "root", while the people populating the eastern shores of the Botnic Bay are perceived as "SINGING" the very same root-sounds, as they speak.

Today the word "ruotsinlainen" means nothing but a "Swede" - because they still seem to be "sin" or "singing" the same words as the Finnish coast-people "speak" or "talk". Comparing the tonal chords of these two dialects that discrepancy - between singing and speaking - may perfectly describe the only major difference between the Scandinavian dialects of Finland respectively Sweden.


If the "Paleolitic Continuation Language Theory" is rigth - the Scandinavian and the Finnish languages have a common origin, too -  that once used to be the very original, common root of the European languages. As in "Indo-European" languages, where the "Finno-Ugric" ("Uralic") languages now seems to be included...

In the plain Urlic dialect - still found in Carelia and Finland - they refer to the Swedish tounge as their "root". In that case we may accept that the Scandinavian tounge is explained - by the Finno-Ugric vocabulary - to be the oldest form of the northern languages.

The alphabet presented on the former page is explained in its own language - by the words attached to the various letters. These words are given in the "Scandinavian language" - as known in Sweden, Gotland, Åland and the Finnish coast.

According to the Bock-saga this was the language spoken by a tiny group of ice-time refugees, that survived this eonic period in the heated waters of southern Finland's archipelago.

It was during this eon of time that the signs of the key-sounds, today called letters, are supposed to have been defined and refined - into the present state of perfection. This period is described by the saga as "Alt-land-is-time" - i.e. "the all-land-ice-time". 


Getting out of the ice-age the arctic population - developed into pale caucasians - started to spread across the northern hemisphere. While they worked har to reconnect to the populations on all corners
of the globe - tying them together through similar, resonating sounds - paving the way for a reconstruction of a common, international language.

The saga claims that both the French and the English language were direct results of these efforts. Combining the clarity of the Scandinavian sounds with the magnitude of the latin languages the English language seems to have filled all of the requirements needed of a language that works - in all kinds of international settings.

Though, the original "root-alphabet" - as spoken even before the biotic refugia of the ice-age, called Altlandis - is still found in the "Scandinavian" or "Swedish" toungue. Of course it's hard for any Dane to accept such historical views, but reading this thread he or she just may have to learn them and even leave with them. Especially when he would have to listen to the further expension of the root-speaking, caucasoind population - that reached southern France via Denmark - as they populated northern Europe.

Thus the close relationhip between the Glozel letters, the old runes and the ancient signs of letters - found world-wide. The alpe/aleph/alfa-syndrome of the major ancient cultures should be more than enough to incline that we really did have a common origin.

This origin would have to be closely connected to the caucasian etnicity, as well as the indo-european culture.  Considering that the origin of agrculture are linked to the caucasian populations of the north-west rather that the south-east Europe, we may suspect that the area between the Baltic Ocean and the North Sea - called Denmark - once were the axis of the population that spread throughout continental Europe - during mesolithicum....

In that case the entire legend of Atlants would be based on a reality of history - rather than a "myth" or a 'hypothesis'.

---

Great work Elric. This was duely on target.


 
 



« Last Edit: May 19, 2007, 08:49:55 pm by Boreas » Report Spam   Logged

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« Reply #17 on: May 19, 2007, 09:29:39 pm »

Actually Runes were used by many people including Central Asian people like Hungarian and Turkic tribes.Look             http://www.sunnyway.com/runes/origins.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orkhon_script
http://www.antalya-ws.com/futhark/index.htm
May be It was used by American Natives also, because They came from Asia ~12.000 BC
{unfortunately, I couldnt bring the runic pictures.Please Elric help:)) I dont know how tocarry the pictures from the sites.
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« Reply #18 on: May 19, 2007, 10:42:30 pm »

The Norse signs were called "runes" due to their functionality as a modern (phonetic) alphabet.
The so-called "futharks" are actually different sets of runes, normally asociated to various periods and locations of the various Norse cultures.

Similar signs - as we may recognize in the runic and phonetic ("latin") letters both - are found all around the globe. The dates of these finds vary a lot of course. The oldest known letters I have heard of were found outside of Tomsk, in the eastern part of central Russia. They are written in clay tablets that have been dated to 7.000 BP.

In this ligth we have witnessed an entire new generation of stone-carvings, decorated clay-pots and engraved clay-tablets that starts to tell of a wider use of phonetic letters already at the time of the Neolithic Age, rather than the late Bronze Age, as previously assumed.

If the clay-tablets of Grozul are really 7.000 years old, the entire interpretation of the period - and "civilsatory revolution" of the Neolithic Age will have to be both revised and upgraded.

In his book "Facing The Ocean", Colin Renfrew points out that the culture that populated the "Atlantic Facade" after end of ice-time seem to have spread around the North Sea as they developed firmly into the populations of the entire Atlantic Facade, from Gibraltar to Northern Norway. The origin of this population, that arrived 11.200 years ago in western Scandinavia, are still obscure.

     
According to the European Genome Project the descendants of these pioneering inhabitants are still populating these areas. Stating that "The present population of Scandinavia was initiated by the very first  hunter/gathers that migrated into Scandinavia after ice-age. In that case the Scandinavians and the Finns are both the "indigenious populations" of the Finno-Scandian sub-continent.

According to later surveys it seems that 75 % of the north European gene-pool are rooted in the very first populations of "hunters-gathers" that populated the islands off the Atlantic facade, as well as continental Europe and Scandinavia. Later migrations or inter-change is said to have contributed to only 25% of the gene-pool. This have led researhers to believe that the "neolithic revolution" was made through "adaption" rather than "extiction" - and "cultural defussion" rather than "migrational waves", "learning" rather than "campaigning".

In that view we would have traces of a culture of letters and language that are more than 7.000 year old - in Northern Europe rather than in Anatolia or Trans-Caucasia.

The present analyzis of biochemical clues from the nature of adaption - as performed by the human body, we have just been getting to know that lactose persistance is invariably connected to the caucasian populations. The demagrafical information of the northern hemisphere shows that the present Danes and Swedes belong to the most solid stock of agriculturalists in the world - as 99 per cent of them can digest milk and diaries. Outside this circle the percentage of lactose persistance are lowering, according to its distance from this "core area" of lactose persistence - as a biologic reality among human beings.

To explain the occurance of the great civilisations and the beginning of "the civilising factor", many  have always stressed the connection between agriculture and the development of metalurgy, trade and writing.
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« Reply #19 on: May 20, 2007, 04:18:58 pm »

My mistake, Rockessence.

Julia has found some more interesting runic alphabets for us to look at:






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« Reply #20 on: May 20, 2007, 04:22:21 pm »



"The Etruscan alphabet is thought to have been developed from the Greek alphabet by Greek colonists in Italy. The earliest known inscription dates from the middle of the 6th century BC.

More than 10,000 Etruscan inscriptions have been found on tombstones, vases, statues, mirrors and jewelry. Fragments of a Etruscan book made of linen have also been found.

Most Etruscan inscriptions are written in horizontal lines from left to right, but some are boustrophedon (running alternately left to right then right to left).

Used to write: Etruscan, a language spoken by the Etruscans, who lived in Etruria (Tuscany and Umbria) between about the 8th century BC and the 1st century AD. Little is known about the Etruscans or their language."

Archaic Etruscan alphabet (7th-5th centuries BC)



Neo-Etruscan alphabet (4th-3rd centuries BC)





"The Old Italic alphabets developed from the west Greek alphabet, which came to Italy via the Greek colonies on Sicily and along the west coast of Italy. The Etruscans adapted the Greek alphabet to write Etruscan sometime during the 6th century BC, or possibly earlier. Most of the other alphabets used in Italy are thought to have derived from the Etruscan alphabet."




"The earliest known inscriptions in the Latin alphabet date from the 6th century BC. It was adapted from the Etruscan alphabet during the 7th century BC. The letters Y and Z were taken from the Greek alphabet to write Greek loan words. Other letters were added from time to time as the Latin alphabet was adapted for other languages."



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« Reply #21 on: May 20, 2007, 04:27:30 pm »











"The Messapic alphabet is thought to have derived directly from the Greek alphabet, rather than developing from the Etruscan alphabet. The only known inscriptions in the Messapic alphabet date from the 2nd and 1st centuries BC. The Messapic language was not related to other languages of Italy."

















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« Reply #22 on: May 20, 2007, 04:34:22 pm »



"The Romans used just 23 letters to write Latin. There were no lower case letters, and K, X, Y and Z used only for writing words of Greek origin. The letters J, U and W were added to the alphabet at a later stage to write languages other than Latin. J is a variant of I, U is a variant of V, and W was introduced as a 'double-v' to make a distinction between the sounds we know as 'v' and 'w' which was unnecessary in Latin."





But what other alphabets may have influenced runes? Remember that over the millennia there was a great migration of people, spreading from the birthplace of mankind, in the "middle east" to what are now Europe and northern Africa. Ancient people did travel--a lot--and long before the Vikings became known as explorers and traders.



"Hungarian runes (Székely Rovásírás) are descended from the Kök Turki script used in Central Asia. They were used by the Székler Magyars in Hungary before István, the first Christian king of Hungary, ordered all pre-Christian writings to be destroyed. In remote parts of Transylvania however, the runes were still used up until the 1850s. Hungarian runes were usually written on sticks in boustrophedon style (alternating direction right to left then left to right). The runes include separate letters for all the phonemes of Hungarian and are in this respect better suited to written Hungarian than the Latin alphabet. "





The upper rune rows are the Elder Futhark variants. The lower rune row shows the Turkish Runes and their phonetic equivalents.





"The Tifinagh or Tifinigh abjad is thought to have derived from the ancient Berber script. [Berbers were mountain people, who lived in northwestern Africa, in what is now Morocco.] The name Tifinagh means 'the Phoenician letters', or possibly comes from the Greek word for writing tablet, 'pínaks'. It is not taught in schools, but is still used occasionally by the Tuareg for private notes, love letters and in decoration. For public purposes, the Arabic alphabet is used."





"The South Arabian alphabet is known from inscriptions found in southern Arabia dating from between 600 BC and 600 AD. Its origins are not known. The South Arabian alphabet, like Arabic and Hebrew, includes only consonants. It was written from right to left in horizontal lines. The top row of letters are written in monumental style, while the bottom row of letters are in cursive style. "





"The Sabaean or Sabaic alphabet is one of the south Arabian alphabets. The oldest known inscriptions in this alphabet date from about 500 BC. Its origins are not known, though one theory is that it developed from the Byblos alphabet. The Sabaean alphabet, like Arabic and Hebrew, includes only consonants. Unlike Arabic and Hebrew, Sabaean has no system for vowel indication. In most inscriptions it is written from right to left, in some it is written in boustrophedon style (alternating right to left and left to right). It was used to write Sabaean, an extinct Semitic language spoken in Saba, the biblical Sheba, in southwestern Arabia. The Sabaeans managed to unite southern Arabia into a single state by the 3rd century AD, but were conquered by the Abyssinians in 525 AD. "



http://www.sunnyway.com/runes/origins.html
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« Reply #23 on: May 20, 2007, 04:37:41 pm »

Orkhon script



Orkhon tablet

The Orkhon script (also spelled Orhon script, also Orkhon-Yenisey script, Old Turkic script, Göktürk script, Turkish: Orhon Yazıtları) is the alphabet used by the Göktürk from the 8th century to record the Old Turkic language. It was later used by the Uyghur Empire; a Yenisei variant is known from 9th-century Kirghiz inscriptions, and it has likely cousins in the Talas Valley of Turkestan and the Old Hungarian script of the 10th century.

The script is named after the Orkhon Valley in Mongolia, where 8th century inscriptions were discovered in an 1889 expedition by Nikolay Yadrintsev. These Orkhon inscriptions were published by Vasily Radlov and deciphered by the Danish philologist Vilhelm Thomsen in 1893.

The script is very similar to that on monuments left by Tu-jue (突厥 pinyin tú jué) in China during the Tang Dynasty.[citation needed] Because of similarities to the angular shapes of the runic alphabet, the letters of the Orkhon script have been referred to as "Turkic runes" or described as "runiform". This similarity is superficial, however, since all alphabetic scripts used for incision in hard surfaces show this tendency (see Old Italic alphabets for other examples).
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« Reply #24 on: May 20, 2007, 04:39:09 pm »



Inscription in Kyzyl using Orkhon script

Origins

Mainstream opinion derives the Orkhon script from variants of the Aramaic alphabet, in particular via the Pahlavi and Sogdian alphabets, as suggested by V.Thomsen, or possibly via Karosthi (c.f. Issyk inscription).

Alternative possibilities include derivation from tamgas, suggested by W. Thomsen in 1893, from the Chinese script.The fact that later found Turkish inscriptions dated earlier than Orkhon Inscriptions was inscripted with some symbols numbered around 150 strenghtens this hypothesis;tamgas at first imitating the Chinese script and then refined into a alphabet in time.

The Danish hypothesis connects the script to the reports of Chinese account[1], from a 2nd century BC Chinese Yan renegade and dignitary named Zhonghan Yue (中行说) who

"taught the Shanyu (rulers of the Xiongnu) to write official letters to the Chinese court on a wooden tablet (牍) 31 cm long, and to use a seal and large-sized folder".
The same sources tell that when the Xiongnu noted down something or transmitted a message, they made cuts on a piece of wood (ko-mu), and they also mention a "Hu script". At Noin-Ula and other Hun burial sites in Mongolia and region north of Lake Baikal among the artifacts were discovered over twenty carved characters. Most of these characters are either identical or very similar to the letters of the Turkic Orkhon script.[2]

Kazakh turkologist A. S. Amanzholov proposes that the script may derive directly from the Phoenician alphabet, or even "ascends to the most ancient common source of alphabetic writing [...] of the 3rd - 2nd millennia BC".[3].

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« Reply #25 on: May 20, 2007, 04:40:17 pm »



Orkhon script
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« Reply #26 on: May 20, 2007, 04:41:28 pm »



2nd century BC - 2nd century AD, characters of Hun- Syanbi script (Mongolia and Inner Mongolia), N. Ishjatms, "Nomads In Eastern Central Asia", in the "History of civilizations of Central Asia", Volume 2, Fig 5, p. 166, UNESCO Publishing, 1996, ISBN 92-3-102846-4

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« Reply #27 on: May 20, 2007, 04:42:27 pm »



2nd century BC - 2nd century AD, characters of Hun- Syanbi script (Mongolia and Inner Mongolia), N. Ishjatms, "Nomads In Eastern Central Asia", in the "History of civilizations of Central Asia", Volume 2, Fig 5, p. 166, UNESCO Publishing, 1996, ISBN 92-3-102846-4

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« Reply #28 on: May 20, 2007, 04:43:43 pm »



Oldest known Türkic alphaber listings, Rjukoku and Toyok manuscripts. Toyok manuscript transliterates Türkic alphaber into Uigur alphabet. Per I.L.Kyzlasov, "Runic Scripts of Eurasian Steppes", Moscow, Eastern Literature, 1994, ISBN 5-02-017741-5.

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« Reply #29 on: May 20, 2007, 04:44:55 pm »

Corpus

The inscription corpus consists of two monuments which were erected in the Orkhon Valley between 732 and 735 in honour of the two Kokturk prince Kul Tigin and his brother the emperor Bilge Khan, as well as inscriptions on slabs scattered in the wider area.

The Orkhon monuments are the oldest known examples of Turkic writings; they are inscribed on obelisks and have been dated to 720 (for the obelisk relating to Tonyukuk), to 732 (for that relating to Kültigin), and to 735 (for that relating to Bilge Kagan). They are carved in a script used also for inscriptions found in Mongolia, Siberia, and Eastern Turkistan and called by Thomsen "Turkish runes".[4] They relate in epic language the legendary origins of the Turks, the golden age of their history, their subjugation by the Chinese, and their liberation by Bilge.[4] The polished style of the writings suggests considerable earlier development of the Turkish language.[4]
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