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VAÏNÄMOÏNEN MYTHOLOGY

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Author Topic: VAÏNÄMOÏNEN MYTHOLOGY  (Read 5258 times)
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« Reply #15 on: May 14, 2007, 02:37:44 am »

Method of Dating

In an article in Populär Arkeologi (Nr. 3 1998, 3-7) Hans-Peter Schulz reports that a stratification in the deposit was found in the cave. The deposit consisted of 6 different layers. In 1997 a pollen test was taken from the 4th and possibly 5th layers, wrote Schulz. Analysis of the pollen confirmed an old age for these layers, because the pollen from such plants has not been found in Österbotten since the Ice Age. Schulz mentioned copper beech and a species of heath (Bruckenthalia) and meant that these plants point to the Holstein Interglacial (340,000-300,000 BP).

During excavation in the summer of 1998 samples for thermoluminescense analysis were taken. With the method of thermoluminescence one can determine when the particles of earth had last been subjected to sunlight.

Traces of fauna were found in layer 1 (the surface layer) and were accordingly younger than 8000 years. According to Vbl 9.6.1998 Pirkko Ukkonen was amazed that the seal bones (some with C14 dates to 2500 BP) were preserved so well in the upper layer. According to her, this indicates that the cave has preserved animal bones well.

The archaeological finds are from layers IV-VI, wrote Schulz. One of the most interesting finds indicated that, as a result of trampling by humans or animals , there is a pavement in layer IV. Through trampling the stones are tightly aligned to each other which has been noted in Central European caves.

In the Wolf Cave adjacent to the edge of the stone floor was found a deposit layer with "flakes, charcoal and small bits of burned stones, which indicates human activity". (p.6). Four likely hearth remains were discovered, of which only two are reliable.

They have sought to date the archeological finds through an analysis of the platform remnants. Schulz wrote:
A rapid, aimed blow results in a platform remnant at the tool which cannot be formed as an effect of sediments, pressure, frost, fire or weathering and which can be verified by the traits:

- platform remnant with point of percussion

- bulb; reflection of the percussion at the ventral surface

- concentric ripples, Wallner-lines

The tool finds from the Wolf Cave can be divided into tools of pebble(9% whereof 3 are possible one-sided chopping tools), retouched flakes(21%), cores (10%) and flakes (60%). Prominent is that 80% ofthe flakes have a primary dorsal surface and that only 20% exhibits negative dorsal surfaces. This holds true for both the retouched as the rest of the flakes.
The number of tool finds from the Wolf cave is too small to allow a statistical comparison, says Schultz.

A comparison with the starting point from the structure of percussion points and flakes (after a method by D. Schäfer 1997. Development of blankattributes of preupper paleolithic flakes) clearly shows conformity with the Central European older paleolithic finding inventory from Bilzingsleben, Clacton on Sea, Memleben, Verteszöllös, Wallendorf and Wangen. With this comparison, the so-called "trend-structure" has been used, that is, determining the thickness of the flakes, the form of platform remnants, angle of blow , primary/faceted platform remnants, occurrence of primary/negative dorsal surfaces.

Yet there is still a problem with the dating, Schulz points out. Also, if the working technique points to oldest paleolithic time we have to remember that finds are few. The Wolf Cave is a geograhically isolated place concerning such early inhabitants, and the Jotun sandstone as a raw material is new for researchers. "The old" technique may have persisted longer here in the North than in Central Europe.

Schulz closed his article in Populär Arkeologi by pointing out that many years ago people in Central Europe found the remains of a neanderthal man who lived more than 250,000 years ago. "With this background one can perhaps guess that these visitors to the Wolf Cave were an earlier edition of the neanderthal man."

 

Visitors Forbidden

Since the summer of 1998 visitors to the cave have not been allowed. (Interview with Hans-Peter Schulz, Vbl 7.7.1998, see also Vbl 8.12.1998). The National Board of Antiquities justifies this as a risk because the great amount of material carried away from the cave has created the risk of a collapse of the cave's roof. (The roof of the cave was reinforced in 2002/ed). Also there is a risk of contamination (the excavation relies on scientific methods, such as for dating and they are worried that visitors could hazard the sampling.)

Hans-Peter Schulz said in an interview in Vbl (7.7.1998) that in 1997 the cave was visited by 5,000 tourists and that the numbers in 1998 exceeded that.

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« Reply #16 on: May 14, 2007, 02:38:54 am »

References:

Anon. "Svårtolkade fynd från Varggrottan: Inga gäster får längre gå i Grottmannens hem" ("Difficult to interpret finds from the Wolf Cave: Visitors can no longer go into the caveman's home.") Vasabladet 8.12.1998.
Ekman, Mats. "Här är den ´riktiga´grottmannen: Kalervo Uusitalo tjatade tills geologerna kom till Varggrottan. Tror stenfynden bara är början." ("Here is the "true" caveman: Kalervo Uusitalo nags untilgeologists come to the Wolf Cave. Thinks the stone find is only the beginning.") Vasabladet 19.10.1997.
--- "Grotta döljer spår av stenåldern?" ("Cave hid traces of the Stone Age?") Vasabladet 16.5.1995.
Kjellberg, Johan. "Stenarna är en världssensation. Människor tillverkade verktygen I Varggrottan för minst 74.000 år sedan. Forskarna entusiastiska." ("The stones are a world sensation. People made tools in the Wolf Cave at least 74,000 years ago. Researchers enthusiastic.") Vasabladet 16.10.1997.
Nyström, Helge. "Varggrottan får inte bli turistfälla: Arkeologerna betackar sig för Grottmannens stugby och Visitors Center." ("The Wolf Cave will not be a tourist trap. Archaeologists say that Caveman's Cottage Village and Visitors Center are not for us." ) Vasabladet 7.7.1998.
Ritaoja, Linda: "Neanderthalare I Varggrottan: Nu är forskare säkra." ("Neanderthals in the Wolf Cave: Now researchers are sure.") Syd-Österbotten 9.6.1998.
Schulz, Hans-Peter: "De tog skydd I Varggrottan: De första spåren av människor i Norden är mer än hundratusen år gamla." ("They took shelter in the Wolf Cave. The first traceof humans in the North is more than 100,000 years old.") Populär Arkeologi Nr. 3 (1998).
Translation by June Pelo 2002

Edited for WWW by Staffan Storteir

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In Swedish: VARGGROTTAN En föristida fyndplats i Lappfjärd

Building of reinforcement constructions in June 2002

Latest news:
Excavations 2004 - 2005.
 
http://sydaby.eget.net/eng/wolf/wolf_ralf.htm
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« Reply #17 on: May 14, 2007, 02:44:17 am »

Translate from Finnish to English:

http://efe.scape.net/index.php

A few very informational posts from our good Finnish friend Haegl:

Quote
Maybe Finnish language is unique, but like it is said, there is lot of similarity in finnish and english languages. Have a look about this, what I found:

( you have probably seen this before too... )

http://www.timolehtinen.com/writings/glossaries/fi-en-common/

- - -

The editor of the magazine (called "Minä Olen" in english "I Am") just showed the picture, and the man who said his feelings about the picture was this slovenian spiritual teacher Marko Pogacnik. ( just wanted to be precise. )
http://www.ljudmila.org/pogacnik/FrameSET12.html


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 There is SOMETHING not just under the mountain, but in the (ring)land/Uudenmaa itself. I am totally sure of that.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I wouldn't say like that. The energies in Uudenmaa isn't so amazing beside other finnish places.

One clarification about Uudenmaa. You propably know this already but I put it here anyway.
Uudenmaa (Uusimaa) is a province in Southern Finland. Itä-Uusimaa ( East-Uusimaa ) is a part of old historic province of Uudenmaa. In Itä-Uudenmaa there is boroughs/villages called Askola (can't translate), Lapinjärvi (The Lake Of Lappland), Liljendal (can't translate), Myrskylä (The Place Of Storms), Pernaja (can't translate), Pornainen (can't translate), Pukkila (The Place Of Buck's), Ruotsinpyhtää (can't translate) and Sipoo (where is the Temple of Lemminkäinen.)

http://fi.wikipedia.org/wiki/It%C3%A4-Uudenmaan_maakunta

The names of these places are very interesting and tell's something about history of the place, but the energies most of these places sucks. ( I have been spent time two months in Lapinjärvi,Liljendal,Pornainen,Pernaja - area, and these places aren't so amazing. Of course, there are few very powerfull energy-centers this area too, but you can find at least one in every village in finland so that isn't so strange.
There are few exceptions and the Temple of Lemminkäinen is one of this.

The most powerfull and most important places in Finland of this kind of matter are absolutely KOLI, SAANA, PYHÄTUNTURI, and archipelagos. ( Can't say spesific islands, because there is thousands of them, and many islands form big entityes of so called landscape temples. )
I personaly live in island of Rymättylä, which is part of Turku's Archipelago, and I can say, that sometimes the energies are so amazing, that I cant sit still. In spite of that I have been live there most of my life, and born only 35 km away from the island. And the energies of my homeisland are very small beside example Koli or Pyhätunturi.


But the Koli is absolutely one of most importants!
Seppo Huunonen, the writer of the "Uuden Laulun Kalevala" ( Kalevala Of The New Sing, or something like that...) is speaking a lot about this place, and so are many others people too, including me.

Here is picture taken top of the Koli.
http://www.koli.fi/service.cntum?serviceType=document&documentName=105511/kuva8.jpg&showPicture=true

And there is some information too.
http://www.metla.fi/koli/index-en.htm



quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 You went to Sipoo at the weekend, right? Tell me, what did you find there? Did you see the temple?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I have to say, that I was very disappointed, that I didn't finally get opportunity to get there at all  I was there around, in Helsinki and Hanko, but because of bad circumstances, we decided not to go there this time. We will wait better time.
When I get there, I can write a trip-journal and put some pictures in internet too.


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 I have real Kalevala several times. It's not something that one can read just once and understand it.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

That is absolutely true. But I was wondering, how much you really CAN understand it? Because it is very very hard even to me understand it although my mother tongue is Finnish... And I have been tried... A lot.
There is some books that helps understand that like "Kalevalan Avain" ( The Key To Kalevala ) written by Pekka Ervast. http://www.bookplus.fi/product.php?&isbn=1577330218

But still, it's hard, because the text is so lyric and symbolic. But it's my "bible" anyway...


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I look at the Saga as a whole and see the origins of language, the origins of humanity and how the races of man came about. I see the instructions for breeding and understand with crystal clarity their importance. In the Kela of sound I see possibly a key to universal knowledge in pure form. Then I also see this "kaamos" and what I see there is that this man who has carried such a burden for humanity as the keeper of this information is also a perverse man who may possibly have "stretched the truth" and added things into this Saga as a vehicle to satisfy his own perversions. I do NOT mean any disrespect at all to Ior Bock by saying this, but that is the conclusion that my intuition guides me to at every turn in the 6 years I have been studying about this Saga. But I cannot see any credability to all this sperm business he's on about.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

There it is! I think this is exactly the same thing what I feel! Thank you for putting it to words Allison! Of course, I can't know is it like that or not, but that is what I feel when I look this subject in my inner eyes.

- - -
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« Reply #18 on: May 14, 2007, 02:45:07 am »

Again, Haegl:

Quote
Ok... I write few lines more now and then I leave for a while...


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 I understand the skepticism there. I think that the whole image that the BOCK Saga is of the Bock FAMILY, and not about only Ior Bock has been distorted. Ior Bock is just a messenger in this time, that's it. He was trusted to this task, but I cannot believe for one second that he - or anyone for that matter - is able to fabricate such a complex "tale". It would require an incredible amount of time and genius, which I honestly - although he is a great historian - don't think that Ior Bock possesses. He's just relating a history to modern time. He's a messenger who had nothing at all to do with the writing of this history.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Absolutely correct, yes.
There was a misunderstood with my post now.
Nevermind...


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 The book is called "Bockin Perheen Saaga: Väinämöinen Mytologia" by Ior Bock and you should be able to get it from your local library. The ISBN is 9525137007. It was published by Thyjä in 1996. That is the only official published book about it. This book is not available in english - yet.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Yes I know this book. Publishers homepage:
http://www.timolehtinen.com/writings/books/9525137007/

I was remembering, that I have already seen this book in english version somewhere, but of course, didn't find it anywhere, so maybe I was just dreaming...


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 I think you might have the church and government to thank for the lack of exposure in Finland. It's no secret that neither want these things to be proven true - too much has already been proven true for their liking already. Do you realise that this totally undermines the church AND the government. It tells a much deeper account of history than they want us to know. Why else would they refuse excavations at Karjaani?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

That's true too, and it is a very shame that many peoples additude is like that. Little bit open minded attitude would be great. Maybe in future, sooner or later all will expose anyway...
By the way, you say "at Karjaani", do you mean at Kajaani ( the city in Finland ) or is this something else that I dont know?


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 Paskapuhe! [Razz] you already are making great - and profound - conversation here and are easily understood. You're doing fine, just roll with it [Wink] It really is a pleasure to discuss with you about this because all but one of my Finnish friends will not even talk about this subject. It's hard to find people who will talk about this Saga. This topic is the only reason I joined this forum. Nobody is discussing it elsewhere.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Heh heh...  Thanks! I am tryig, it's good to hear that I am developing...

By the way, it's paskapuhetta...
To be a precise 

- - -


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 First, the original people ate only berries, fruit, nuts, roots and etc. They procreated a lot, and produced a lot of sperm, and quickly discovered the nutritional value of it. The procreation and sperm began the language. The sperm transferred power. And I suspect that it contained elements that may not even be present in today's humans. The purity of the diet in those times is a million miles from what we put into our bodies now.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This is an interesting view about this. And I dont want to judge whole thing right away just because I dont understand it. Thanks for reminding me about that rockessence!

This whole thing is very complicated, especially to be discussed in the forum like this. I mean, that when we are writing about this, we cant be so interaction with other writers than if we could get chance to discuss about this subject face to face. In oral way, where the whole thing we are talking about is based on. Do you know what I try to tell? The bodylanguage, different pronauncings, short comment's, listening, listening and talking and the blessed silence of wisdom, when people are gathering together and start to "pohtimaan syntyjä syviä..."

- - -

Now I must go, but I will be back as soon as possible again. I really enjoy this conversation and can only say:

"Mieleni minun tekevi,
aivoni ajattelevi
lähteäni laulamahan,
saa'ani sanelemahan,
sukuvirttä suoltamahan,
lajivirttä laulamahan.
Sanat suussani sulavat,
puhe'et putoelevat,
kielelleni kerkiävät,
hampahilleni hajoovat.
Veli kulta, veikkoseni,
kaunis kasvinkumppalini!
Lähe nyt kanssa laulamahan,
saa kera sanelemahan
yhtehen yhyttyämme,
kahta'alta käytyämme!
Harvoin yhtehen yhymme,
saamme toinen toisihimme
näillä raukoilla rajoilla,
poloisilla Pohjan mailla."
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« Reply #19 on: May 14, 2007, 02:45:56 am »

Still more:

Quote
Terveppä taasen!


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 Finnish has a lot of borrowed words from Swedish, and of course English too.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Well, can we even say 'borrowed' if we assume that all languages are based only one?


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 The view from Koli is spectacular! Man, I want to go there!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I'm glad that you liked the view rockessence, I love it too!
You would maybe want to see these pictures too:

http://www.maion.com/photography/finland/index.html

Have a look Finland's Lappland Gallery too, there is some very beatiful pictures...

http://www.maion.com/photography/lapland/index.html

There is very great photos about all over the Finland, and some of these shows absolutely great the energies of the places by the time they have been token.

And Allison, you can see the names of places too here, so you can maybe find whole new places that you might be interested. 

One picture can tell more than thousend words.
But, we have to remember, that one picture can lie too more than thousand words, but I guarantee, that the places showed on pictures are looking just the same if you get there in right time.
Of course, there is things, what photographer didn't want to get in the film, so if you look beautiful nature landscape and get opportunity to look to right side, you might maybe see hotel or something... that's the way -unfortanetely- all over the world now a days...

Here is another great picture taken from Koli:

http://www.maion.com/photography/finland/winter_forest_p23.html

Can you see the magical energies of the place from this picture? Did you know, that "Mountain's" in Koli are nearly 3.1-2.6 billion years old?

Quote from Metla's pages what I put my last post:

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
# Weathering and erosion, which has continued for nearly two billion years, has worn this ancient mountain chain comparable in the beginning to the Himalayas to its present modest dimensions.
# The local "devil's fields" consisting of boulders and rocks of varying sizes, caves and rocks bearing the "impressions" of waves from more than 2 billion years ago fossilised shoreline sand are fine examples of the stages of geological development.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Interesting. I wonder what was there something like 10.000 years ago... Because it's well knowned that Koli was, and IS very important ritual-place.
The names tell it too, example there is two mountain's that are called: Ukko-Koli and Akka-Koli. And there is also a cave called Pirunkirkko. ( The Devil's Church. ) Now you must understand that there is really nothing to do with these two names, Piru, and Devil. When the church came, they try to demonize all our old "gods". They did good work with Piru, and now a days many people dont know, that Piru is old Finnish principal of nature, nature spirit. The word 'god' is also came with christianity and in my understand is nothing to do with old Finnish
"religion" or "myth's".

But nobody not dare to touch the Finnish main-god or main-spirit called Ukko, who is the spirit/principal/symbol of storms and many other things. Like asatru's Thor. Well, church didn't succeed to demonize Ukko, and still when the thunderstorm comes, it's called Ukonilma, ( The Weather of Ukko ) or Ukkonen. (The Little Ukko)...

- - -

( By the way, the online dictionary what I have been use doesnt work right now, so there can be more writing errors (? kirjoitusvirheitä ) in my post now than usually.
Sorry about that...
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« Reply #20 on: May 14, 2007, 02:47:13 am »

Rockessence:

Quote
Protect the reindeer forests

(Here's a message from Matti at the Forest Rescue Station in northern Finland.)

Right now we are standing up for the forest rights of Sámi indigenous people against the greed of a state controlled logging company. Despite the fact that their reindeer forests are supposed to be protected, the Finnish government is profiting from their destruction.

Only international pressure from people like you can help defend these forests and help us win this campaign. Take action and make sure we are not alone!

Matti Liimatainen


Write to StoraEnso and the Finnish Ministry of Finance, which is the largest single shareholder in the company

Write to the Finnish foreign minister

Visit the web log for the Forest Rescue Station


http://weblog.greenpeace.org/forestrescue/
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« Reply #21 on: May 14, 2007, 02:48:27 am »

Haegl:

Quote
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 I have looked into this - and its apparent that Mr. Bock never initiated, participated or advocated "orgies and drug use". That was the smear created by boulevard press.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ok, it is possible that I get this wrong what you are saying, but the truth is that this "orgies" or the forest-psyketrance-partyes that always end up an orgies, aren't a created by press. I have friends, who have been there. Ior fix up it every year ( not anymore naturally, but I think that last one was something like 1996 - 1998... The partyes was always in Kristiina's Day. ( Kristiinanpäivänä ) There was lot of drugs, and lot of everything else drugs than hemp too... There was different colors fosfor-tubes hanging in the trees making images like mushrooms and so on. And in the end, everything was only huge orgies, and common thing was the used condoms in the snow...

Well, one thing that press DON'T always tell, is that only one who doesnt take alcohol or other drugs than hemp, was Ior himself. So you are right Boreasi when you say:


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Another thing is that he does keep to the TRADITION of hemp and tobacco, as two natural plants that have been used for "recreational use".

Still he shuns alchohol in general, stronger than beer - with the exceptions of two or three ocassions a year, during traditional celebrations. And he explicitly shuns the use (abuse) of strong drinks, pills, powder and other forms of "consentrated nature" - such as modern forms of drugs.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

And I agree with you in this.

- - -


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 A Finn that does not drink......that's something you don't see every day.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Tell me about it... I can mention only 3/70 people who don't drink at least two times every week.
I mean so much that they are really drunk. Of course many can drink something every day... That is really sad. ( in Finland, it is more normal to be so drunk that you cant walk in weekends or holidays than be clear and not to take anything. And normaly the man aren't allowed to cry, hug, or tell what they feel, to others, but when they get drunk, well...everything is allowed. Strange. )

Ok, like the Allison said, back to the post:


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 As a kid, you guys are conditioned to see Kalevala as just this boring story that everyone HAS to study in literature class in school. That is why most Finns don't take up a lot of time to delve into it deeper.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This is sad but true Allison.
I was very interested about Kalevala already as a kid in the school, but the teacher succeeded to get this interesting thing so boring that I dont get who she do it... So, I forget whole thing for a while until I found it again in age of 16.

- - -


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 I agree about the pills, powder and modern forms of drugs.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I protest strongly against all syntetic or half-syntetic products. Even pain-killers. That's why I use only traditional healing methods like herb's, energy-treatments, smoke, drums and spells, and Sauna is my hospital of course! 
And I am more healthy than all my friends and family. So, I try help others too. That's my call.


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 But how does one deal with the TV appearance? I mean, that was him on that talk show.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Good point.

- - -


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 No, I didn't know that. "perkelenpelto" - what a place! Have you been to see these places yet? If that land cound talk.......well, actually it can......but what a history it holds!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ok, to be precise it's Pirunpelto. ( The Field Of Piru. ) Perkele is now a days an strong Finnish swearword, and Piru is unfortunately small one too, (thanks to church) but from the very beginning the word Perkele, is a old name of Estonian "heathen-god".

I have been in Koli two or three times.
Amazing place!

And yes, the land can talk.
Because of my shamanic picture of the world ( and lifestyle) I (itseasiassa) talk to land, trees and rocks and everything very often, and if I am in tune, I can hear the answer. And yes, they have SO MUCH to tell! Where do you think the Seppo Huunonen get the new sings of 'Uuden Laulun Kalevala'? Well, the Suur-Haltia of the Koli is one source of this information... ( Suur-Haltia is in english like Master-Fairy of the place or something like that, nature spirit anyway...)

In november there are three day event -Pyhä Koli- in Koli which handle subjects like:

- Henkinen kasvu ja terveys kalevalaisen
mysteeritiedon valossa.

( The spiritual growth and health in light of
secret knowledge of Kalevala. )

- Elämä, kuolema, jälleensyntyminen ja kohtalo.

( Life, Death, Incarnation and Destiny. )

- Äänen ja kalevalakielen parantavat voimat.

( The healing forces of the sound and language of
Kalevala. )

- Muinaiset kalevalaiset luonnontemppelit

( The ancient nature-temples of the age of Kalevala. )

- Suomalainen mytologia, Uuden laulun Kalevala
ihmisyyden kouluna

( The Finnish mythology and 'Uuden Laulun Kalevala' as a school of mankind. )

- "Kekri ja Santti" muinaiset pyhäinpäivän ajan
juhlan merkitys

( Meanings of old heaten-celebrations like Kekri and Santti. )

Sounds interesting isn't it!
Man...I really hope that I can join this event in next month!

- - -

Even the official pages of Koli-area is said that:


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 Koli has provided the landscape for the Kalevala epic and was a place of pagan sacrifices. During the turn of the century, when Finland was seeking its own national identity through the Karelianism movement, the most notable artists and musicians, such as Eero Järnefelt, Juhani Aho, Venny Soldan-Brofelt, Jean Sibelius, I.K.Inha and Pekka Halonen, took their motifs and themes from Koli. It is a powerful, evocative and inspiring site for modern art, culture and architecture even for this day and age.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

- - -

And Thank You rockessence, that you posted that "Protect The Reindeer Forests"-post.!
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« Reply #22 on: May 14, 2007, 02:51:56 am »

Haegl has been invited to this forum, by the way. Perhaps a second invitation is in order, he had good information.

Karen
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Using rocks and minerals to heal the earth and us.


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« Reply #23 on: May 14, 2007, 03:54:59 am »

Wolf Cave from http://www.bocksaga.de/frameset_english.htm

Now destiny had it that the very summer of 1995 a Finnish truck-driver excavated a cave in south-western Finland – that soon should become the famous “Wolf Cave”, outside Kristinestad. Here the amateur-archaeologist found amazing, though indisputable proofs that the cave had been occupied by humans, more that 70.000 years ago. Since then professional archaeologist have made more amazing discoveries inside the cave-system, of more than 280.000 years old human traces, inside the same cave.
By 1998 it was revealed that a more than 40.000 years old settlement, built by modern man, have been found in the White Sea. The discovery was made during the PECHORA-project, a Norwegian-Russian co-operation involving the foremost experts from the Universities of Bergen, Petersburg and Moscow.

Conclusively, by 1998 it was indisputably proven that;

1) “The Family Saga of Stromso Manor” already by 1985 explained in detail how people had survived inside The Baltic Sea DURING ice-time.
2) At that time we had neither scientific proofs nor indications – that could inspire or substantiate such a statement. Thus there was no other reason for Ior Bock telling about it, than the understanding he had got from his family-story.
3) By 1996 and 1997 the first results from more than hundred lab-tests – paralelled and counter-checked – in both Norway, Finland and Germany – proves that there have indeed been people living inside the Baltic area, from the Botnic Bay to the White Sea – DURING Ice-time.

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« Reply #24 on: May 17, 2007, 07:20:16 am »

More:



The excavations at the Wolf Cave (Susiluola, Varggrottan) site started again on July 21, 2004 after a two-year break. Complete excavations are now planned for a three-year period. For the first time, researchers will study the area immediately outside the cavern in hopes of finding ancient traces - burned bones, for instance - after removing the thick surface soil, stumps and boulders. Inside the cavern the emphasis will be placed on the oldest sediment layers - i.e., those which by reliable methods have already been consistently dated to be circa 128,000 years old - for renewed pollen and macrofossil analysis.

August 26, 2004 - The main finding of this summer's excavations was the discovery of a new layer which is thought to be older than the seven already investigated layers, of which the oldest one has been estimated to be 240,000 years. The researchers will now try to determine the age of the new layer.

July 7, 2005 - New finds of this summer's excavations were sharp-edged flakes in contrast to the earlier more round ones of quartz and sandstone and a burned bone in a dent close to the entrance on the western side of the cave. The new flakes preliminary dated to 35 000 yrs might indicate presence of inhabitants circa 27 000 - 60 000 BP and before the last glaciation period 25 000 - 15 000, that is much later than the older finds and research results pointing to the time period 115 000 - 130 000 yrs BP and taken together implying that the cave has been inhabited during two separate interglacial periods, geologists told.



Excavations outside the cavern



http://sydaby.eget.net/eng/wolf/wimg/2004b.jpg

sydaby.eget.net/eng/wolf/exc2004.htm
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« Reply #25 on: May 17, 2007, 11:31:12 am »

Aphro,

Thanks for keeping this thread going.   That Finnish truck driver who found the first evidence in Wolf Cave went to the officials in charge of antiquities in 1995 to tell them that they should excavate, was told that his idea was ridiculous!   They said that there was NO WAY that humans lived there during ice-time, which ended in Scandinavia 10,000 yrs BP.   They had already been told that humans survived in the area during ALL of ice-time ten years before by Ior Bock, but they didn't want to give HIM any credence, so the truck driver was served with the same mockery.  So the truck driver asked for permission to dig there himself.    It was given with the worst type of attitude.   He then proceeded to unearth evidence which he took to a U. professor.  Then the two went back to the state Antiquities dept.   Consequently, THEY had to begin an official dig. 

Honestly, they would have given ANYTHING to not have any corroboration of Mr. Bock's claims!   Already by then the Pechora Project in Siberia and along the White Sea was proving his points and claims made in the mid 80s.

The most recent digs mentioned were in 2005 going to earlier than 240,000 yrs. and also as recent as 27,000 yrs.   Now we are in 2007.   One wonders what has been found out in the last 2 yrs!!
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« Reply #26 on: May 27, 2007, 06:20:47 pm »

Rockessence,

It is a pity that no more information about the work has been released in the last two years.  Is there a particular website keeping track of the work being done in the Wolf Cave?
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« Reply #27 on: May 27, 2007, 10:09:41 pm »

Sorry I just don't know....
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Thus ye may find in thy mental and spiritual self, ye can make thyself just as happy or just as miserable as ye like. How miserable do ye want to be?......For you GROW to heaven, you don't GO to heaven. It is within thine own conscience that ye grow there.

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« Reply #28 on: May 28, 2007, 06:23:41 pm »

Did some checking and there appears to be no official website where the progress is being updated.

However this Wolf Cave site does have links to several various sites that are similiar:

http://www.susiluola.fi/eng/links.php

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