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BAR: Cynthia McKinney Deserves Your Support, Obama Does Not

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Author Topic: BAR: Cynthia McKinney Deserves Your Support, Obama Does Not  (Read 414 times)
Volitzer
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« Reply #60 on: July 21, 2008, 12:41:13 pm »

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The Bill that both Edwards and Hillary signed wasn't a declaration of war, in fact no formal declaration of war was ever made... The bill was designed to give the President the authority to use force, as leverage against Saddam should he refuse to allow UN inspections access to their facilities. That condtion of the authorization and others were never met.

Not buying that one, Unknown.  At the time of the vote, everyone knew it was a vote for war and that Bush would use it, too (why else even ask for it?).  This revisionist history that it was supposed to be this, or that simply doesn't jive with the facts.

Congress hasn't made a formal declaration of war since 1941, we fought Korea, Vietnam, Grenada, Panama, the Gulf War and Bosnia, all without declarations.

Yeah totally un-Constitutional but the stupid American public keeps putting up with it.
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unknown
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« Reply #61 on: July 22, 2008, 08:55:08 am »

Hi Monique

Well I have to admit that I personally was skeptical because of the very reasons you list, but the CIA believed it, told the President it was a "slam dunk."  Apparently Colon Powel believed it.  They say Hindsight is twenty-twenty, you have to ask yourself if you were in that position would you trust your own instincts or trust the experts. After the collapse of the Soviet Union there are a number of rouge agents selling nuclear weapons, they can't account for much of there stockpile. There was always the chance that Saddam could have gotten his hands on plutonium, it is a corrupt world we live in and it is a big desert where all manner of things could be hidden.  I personally did not believe that Saddam was a direct threat to the United States, but still if he did have or aquired nuclear weapons it would unsettle the balance of power in the Middle East and would have been a direct threat to Israel.

Bush went well beyond the intentions of congress, the UN inspectors were still in Iraq when he invaded.
It never fails to amaze me how sneaky and dishonest he really is... he gave Saddam an ultimatum to leave the country, then ivade before the deadline was up.

Like I said, I watched the actual debates over this on the House Floor, it was never intended to give the President the authority for a full scale invasion. The War Powers Act does give the President the power to use military without congresses approval but only for a limited time and then congress is still supposed to have the final say. 

Hi Volitzer

Yes it is unconstitutional and is another example of the devolving of legislative powers into the hands of the execuitive branch.
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"There exists an agent, which is natural and divine, material and spiritual, a universal plastic mediator, a common receptical of the fluid vibrations of motion and the images of forms, a fluid, and a force, which can be called the Imagination of Nature..."
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Monique Faulkner
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« Reply #62 on: July 22, 2008, 11:11:09 am »

Hi Unknown,

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Well I have to admit that I personally was skeptical because of the very reasons you list, but the CIA believed it, told the President it was a "slam dunk."  Apparently Colon Powel believed it. 


Nahhhh, that was George Tenent, who was a Bush lackey. The CIA itself actually told the White House, prior to the 2003 State of the Union, that they couldn't verify the uranium claim. "Somehow" it ended up in the speech anyway.  All this has been documented in the press, but the press had a habit of burying stuff like this unless you're reading the New York Times.

Quote
Like I said, I watched the actual debates over this on the House Floor, it was never intended to give the President the authority for a full scale invasion. The War Powers Act does give the President the power to use military without congresses approval but only for a limited time and then congress is still supposed to have the final say.
 

Again, Congress never states what specific military action it wants in their resolutions, because it is up to the President to conduct the war.  But common sense would tell you that Bush planned an invasion.  We had been bombing Iraq anytime we wanted under Clinton, if Bush simply wanted to bomb them again, he wouldn't have gone to the trouble of asking for the resolution.

Also, all the members knew what they were voting for, don't believe the "spin."  Edwards apologized for his vote, Hillary pretended that Bush "tricked" her.  Everyone knew we were headed for war, look at the statements from that day, especially Robert Byrd's.  There were protests all over the world.  Twenty-one Democratic Senators voted against it.  Obama not only gave that speech in 2002, he also spoke at an anti-war rally in Chicago, in 2003, just before the war.

All the people who voted for the war did so for one reason - to get political advantage.
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Tom Hebert
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« Reply #63 on: July 22, 2008, 12:05:04 pm »

Bush is one of those guys that likes to surround himself with yes men.  Anyone who disagrees with him soon finds himself out of a job.  This goes a long way in explaining the case that was made for the war in Iraq.

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Rage Against the Machine
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« Reply #64 on: July 22, 2008, 04:49:40 pm »

They had a scenario, war in Iraq, and did whatever they could to bring it about.

Has anyone here read the Downey Street memo? 
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unknown
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« Reply #65 on: July 22, 2008, 05:11:58 pm »

You're right, Rage Against the Machine

The Neocons have been drooling over Iraq for twenty years. 

Well Monique he was the head of the CIA, seems to me like it was one of the greatest intelligence screw-ups of all time. The Valerie Plame incident still pisses me off, the fact that noone went to jail for traitorous act has got to be devasting to the confidence of our intelligence officers around the world.

I still can't believe George Tennet got a medal for his massive screw-up... and Condelesa Rice got a promotion.

Yah General Kinseki found that out in a hurry, Tom, and there is no question they were cherry picking the intelligence.

My point is everyone makes it sound like the democrats who voted for the authorization bill were signing on for decades long occupation of Iraq and all that went along with it. I don't believe that for a minute.
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"There exists an agent, which is natural and divine, material and spiritual, a universal plastic mediator, a common receptical of the fluid vibrations of motion and the images of forms, a fluid, and a force, which can be called the Imagination of Nature..."
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Kristina
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« Reply #66 on: July 22, 2008, 08:37:41 pm »

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My point is everyone makes it sound like the democrats who voted for the authorization bill were signing on for decades long occupation of Iraq and all that went along with it. I don't believe that for a minute.

I'll give you that, at least.  I don't think that any of us who were against the war from the start had the faintest idea that Bush never really wanted to win it.  In America, we tend to like our wars short and with the minimum amount of bloodhshed.

I don't think that anyone but the neocons in the Bush Administration envisioned a war we weren't even going to try to win, an endless occupation and Sectarian violence on the scale that we have never seen.

The Bush Administration did, though.  In the controlled chaos that resulted, they had better opportunity to steal.
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Volitzer
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« Reply #67 on: July 23, 2008, 02:54:52 am »

You're right, Rage Against the Machine

The Neocons have been drooling over Iraq for twenty years. 

Well Monique he was the head of the CIA, seems to me like it was one of the greatest intelligence screw-ups of all time. The Valerie Plame incident still pisses me off, the fact that noone went to jail for traitorous act has got to be devasting to the confidence of our intelligence officers around the world.

I still can't believe George Tennet got a medal for his massive screw-up... and Condelesa Rice got a promotion.

Yah General Kinseki found that out in a hurry, Tom, and there is no question they were cherry picking the intelligence.

My point is everyone makes it sound like the democrats who voted for the authorization bill were signing on for decades long occupation of Iraq and all that went along with it. I don't believe that for a minute.

Remember who is paying them and for this war.

The Bilderberger-Globalists !!!!!!!!!!!!!
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