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the Mid-Atlantic Ridge (Original)

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Carolyn Silver
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« Reply #120 on: August 11, 2008, 02:00:25 am »

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« Reply #121 on: August 11, 2008, 02:01:33 am »

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« Reply #122 on: August 11, 2008, 02:02:31 am »

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« Reply #123 on: August 11, 2008, 02:03:59 am »

The Mid-Atlantic Ridge – Atlantis revisited

Even today several contrasting theories exist concerning the geographical position of Atlantis, the continent – or perhaps we should say, the island – that disappeared approximately 14,000 years ago. Some researchers try to locate Atlantis in the Mediterranean Sea, believing that the Greek island of Santorini is in reality what is left of it, while others search for the mythical place off the coasts of Cornwall, England. Some even think that Atlantis may be found near Antarctis.

Plato’s texts are known to most people who are interested in the origins of the Atlantis myth, so we will not cite them here. However, one piece of information that Plato seems to be very certain about, is Atlantis’ location "beyond the pillars of Hercules" – the ancient name for Gibraltar. Thus, in the Atlantic Ocean – and in the light of this information, it is logical to conclude that the name of the lost island is not casual.

If we presume that the Atlantic Ocean is the place where we may find traces of Atlantis even today, an important point must be stressed: if Atlantis was actually located in the Atlantic Ocean, it could not have been a ‘continent’, if we consider the morphology of the earth’s crust. The well-documented theory of the continental drift seems to sustain this conclusion. In fact, if we compare the costal lines of the African and European continents to those of the American continent, we find that there is not sufficient land "left" to justify the presence of an actual "continent", not even in past geological ages.

Also the question of the sudden disappearance of Atlantis is a mystery. In geological terms, a few years or months represent a very short period of time, which is why the theory that Atlantis may have sunk ‘in a few hours’ is rather weak. We may presume that this theory is a result of the usual evolution of legends: the disappearance of Atlantis in the course of a more probable period of several months or weeks, with a geological background of several years of developing sub-crustal pressure – until we arrive at a fabulous and sudden disastrous sinking that seems mysterious and inexplicable. This is the typical way of the oral tradition of distorting the actual facts. When mankind began to record the history of their ancestors, the stories e.g. from Atlantis, had been passed from generation to generation of survivors and their off-spring with varying degrees of accuracy, until what would finally be written down, was bound to be a tale very different from the actual events. The historical notions that we possess regarding Atlantis are those gained by Solon from the priests of Ancient Egypt – and another 200 years passed, before Plato wrote the texts where Atlantis is mentioned. Obviously, the story of the lost country has greatly changed during the centuries and millennia.

Some researchers have sought the solution of a sudden disappearance of an entire continent in the theory of the inversion of the Earth’s magnetic poles – a real phenomenon which however does not represent a threat to the survival of continents, and only in rare cases to that of islands.

Below, a geologist’s condensed explanation of the concepts of the inversion of the magnetic field of the planet and the continental drift. Writes dr. Mauro Carta who collaborates with the Italian web-site www.vialattea.net/esperti/geologia.html:

"The phenomenon of the inversion of the Earth’s magnetic field is not connected with any particular glaciation, e.g. the Riss. We are having to do with a phenomenon that is strictly connected with the theory of the movements caused by plate tectonics, and with the expansion of the ocean floor. At the centre of the Atlantic Ocean there is a gigantic ridge which expands for thousands of kilometres in N-S direction, from Iceland in the north to the Bouvet Island in the south. In correspondance with this ridge (which has been named ‘mid-atlantic’ because it divides the ocean in two parts), we find submarine volcanic activity, with an incessant production of basaltic crust. In the ‘60s the theories of H. Hess and D.H. Matthews introduced Plate Tectonics, which repeated the conclusions that the German Alfred Wegener had drawn in the 1920s. A very substantial piece of evidence for the expansion of the oceanic crust was the discovery of the magnetic inversion: practically, it has been discovered that the Earth’s two magnetic poles are periodically inverted. The reason for this inversion is yet to be discovered, but the inversion is registered at a microscopical level in basaltic rocks, whose magnetic minerals solidify along the lines of the magnetic field present during their period of consolidation. The ocean floor of the Atlantic Ocean presents a ‘stripe’ structure, meaning that moving away from the ridge, the magnetism of the basaltic rocks display positive polarity in one place, and a negative polarity in another (the iron-magnetic minerals of an oblongue shape display variations of 180° between each other). As the Atlantic basalts are of an age that goes from 180 million years to very recent structures, this means that at least since the Jurassic until today the two magnetic poles (which are not identical to the geographic poles that correspond to those points where the Earth’s rotation axis intersects its surface – the magnetic poles are somewhat dislocated; they have their northern point in the Canadian arctic archipelago – and the southern one in the d’Urville Sea in Antarctis.) These magnetic poles have inverted their position a great many times."

(cit. Mauro Carta, www.vialattea.net/esperti/geologia.html )


The Mid-Atlantic Ridge – MAR – as it can be seen in NASA’s official map
(URL: http://pubs.usgs.gov/publications/text/ridge.html)

It is possible to observe that exactly along the ridge, in a certain point some higher reliefs are present below sea level, as indicated by the lighter blue colour.
From the geologist Mauro Carta’s explanations it results that the Mid-Atlantic Ridge is very active – the dislocations of the reliefs are frequent and vivacious.
However – if there does not seem to be sufficient room for an entire continent, what may the original topology of Atlantis have been like?

The topografic relief maps that we have at our disposal today speak clearly. In the below image the colour indicates the age of the rocks. The brown and red zones are the most recent ones; they go back to a minimum of 0 years to a maximum of 9.6 million years ago. All the other areas are even older (older than 9.6 million years). Once again, the area that captures our interest is outlined by the white rectangle:


(Detail from the world topografic map at http://www.ngdc.noaa.gov.)

As regards our purpose: the effective possibility of finding Atlantis, the last expedition in the mentioned area of the Atlantic Ocean saw an American team searching the MAR in the period November 14 – December 14, 2000. Responsible for the team were the professors Donna Blackman (Scripps Institute of Oceanography), Jeff Karson (University of Washington) and Deborah Kelley (Duke University), and other experts from a total of eight different American universities participated in the project. The "R/V Atlantis" was the research ship provided by the US Academic Navy – and the aim of the expedition was to study the mineralogical composition as well as the topographical evolution of the so-called "Atlantis Massif".


The instrument that would allow the experts to study the ridge at close quarters, was "Alvin", a small bathyscaphe capable of diving to great depths and equipped with a mechanical arm for the removal of rock samples. Furthermore, sophisticated sonar and video instruments on the "R/V Atlantis" would contribute to illuminating the results of the research from other angles.

The choice of the area where the research would be concentrated was not casual. Probably previous cartographic studies of images elaborated by satellites have helped the experts select an area where they might obtain the results they were aiming at.


This research area, however, does not correspond entirely with the area indicated in the above NASA map (fig. 1), though perhaps except for the extreme north-eastern area of the chosen spot. The geographical location of the area is c. 30 degrees north. The MAR expedition’s web-site, http://earthguide.ucsd.edu/mar/ , explains the purpose of the same:

"The unusual thing about the area under study is a large mountain, called the Atlantis Massif, just west of the Mid-Atlantic spreading center at 30°N. The peak of the mountain is 1,700 m (5,000') higher than the usual spreading ridge crest. The width of the mountain is 4-6 times greater than that of most abyssal hills. It is clear that this mountain is a new addition to Earth's crust since it is part of very young and newly created seafloor. The mission is to find out why and how it formed. What forces are responsible for the great height to which rock has been uplifted at this site? What caused a change in the usual style of oceanic crustal formation? When might this area return to its normal state? These are the many questions the scientists seek to answer."

If the American research team had decided to concentrate their studies in an area located more north-easternly of the Atlantis Massif, they might have discovered other things – perhaps also of an archaeological nature – but the mentioned scientific expedition of course clearly states that their main interests concerned the geological features of the MAR. From the maps of the "National Geophysic Data Center" (NGDC: http://www.ngdc.noaa.gov ) it is possible to observe very clearly that a little further towards north-east, a much more interesting relief is located, from an archaeological point of view – it is in fact an area where the attempted recovery of objects might offer evidence of a submerged civilization. Let us observe the maps which are available on the Internet at the NGDC-site (the images are small details of much larger maps, which have not been manipulated in any way. The maps have been developed by the NGDC for didactic and scientific purposes.)


In the right (eastern) part of this image we find the Iberian Peninsula, Gibraltar, and part of the north-west African coast. The Spanish and Portuguese islands off the African coast may be observed – and further to the left we see a section of the mid-atlantic ridge. The area outlined by the while oval corresponds to an area which probably represents the reliefs of a huge island which now lies below the surface of the Atlantic Ocean. This area also includes the Azores.

The reliefs which are so clearly observed in the above image are even clearer in a splendid image of the entire planet, where the factor of the Earth’s curvature logically improves the visual prospective:( http://www.ngdc.noaa.gov/mgg/image/relief_slides2.html )


It has been possible to study the underwater mountain ranges only since 1973 – in fact, ever since the beginning of the space age the various satellites have been providing spectacular images which indicate without any doubt hitherto unknown details concerning the Earth’s crust and the submarine reliefs. Here, we clearly see a submerged shape similar to a peninsula which points in south-west direction, towards the northern coasts of South America. The same reliefs that we find schematically sketched in the first map of this article, the NASA map, are more clearly visible, here.

It seems natural to ask, if so many archaeologists are in search of a scoop - why have none of them ever gone directly in this place, to study the mid-atlantic ridge in a place where aerial images show such an evident island/peninsula shape?

In an attempt to explain this ‘lack of interest’ (or, granted, maybe we should say, ‘lack of funds’?), admittedly we only have very few references to point to, in order to feel certain that an expedition with the aim of finding Atlantis would yield the results hoped for. Besides Plato’s writings which have already been thoroughly discussed by many persons and organisations on the Internet, we have only one alternative source that offers any conclusive material on Atlantis. However, to compensate for its ‘solitude’, this source directly states the geographical coordinates of the lost island of Atlantis. And where two different sources agree, as it is known, the probabilities of obtaining a result increase. Below, we cite the ethical-philosophical-scientific work of "Toward the Light":

"The second empire that perished was a large island in the Atlantic Ocean, the so-called Atlantis. In the remote past this island was connected with the southern part of North America, but through volcanic activity it became separated from the mainland.
The shape of the island can reasonably well be compared to a diagonally elongated, inverted Latin "S" – the upper curve at the right, and the lower at the right. The island’s northernmost point extended to about latitude 40° North, longitude 34° West. The island extended south to about latitude 25 ½ ° North, and west to longitude 47° West, latitude 27 ½ ° North, and eastward to about longitude 28° West. …"

- and the detailed information to establish Atlantis’ exact location continue. On the base of this information we may sketch the following map (the shape of the island is only approximate):


In the book "Toward the Light" we furthermore find the information that if we trace an imaginary line from the English town of Plymouth to the centre of the island of Trinidad close to the South American coast, such a line would cut through the length of the submerged island and touch its easternmost and southernmost points. The largest part of the island would lie west of this line.

Those who have hitherto attempted a reconstruction of Atlantis have probably found difficulty when dealing with the factor of the curvature of our planet. It is in fact difficult to trace a line like the one described without being able to work with the Earth-sphere in three dimensions. If we let ourselves be helped by the most recent satellite map from the NGDC, this new prospective reveals some interesting details:


What would the oceanographers/archaeologists find if they actually decided to research the mentioned area, with bathyscaphs equipped with cameras, sophisticated sonars, etc.? After 14,000 years it would certainly prove difficult to find the ceramic objects described by our source:

"The production of clay utensils was widespread. Basins, bowls and vases were often engraved with ornamental animals and leaves, whose outlines were filled in with brilliant colours." ("Toward the Light", pages 196-97)

It would probably be easier to find other kinds of objects:

"Gold, copper and to some extent silver were all known and used for jewelry and finer utensils, as well as for inlays in the carved wooden images of the gods. Many such images were hewn in stone or formed out of various metallic alloys. The art of building was especially highly developed." (idem, page 197)

The site of what was perhaps the most impressing construction of Atlantis has been pointed out to us: Atze’s Temple – today identified by the name of one of the last high priests of the island. Even today, we have the possibility of observing this temple, because we possess drawings, based on precise instructions from the authors of "Toward the Light". In the 1930s the Danish architect Knud Brønnum made a model in scale of the temple, which can be seen in the offices of the publishing house "Toward the Light Publishers", in Adelgade, Copenhagen.

Below, the drawing of the temple’s façade:


(the drawing made by Knud Brønnum, copied from Carsten Skaarup’s book,
"The Victory of the Light over Darkness")

For more accurate information on Atlantis, see "Atlantis - geographical and cultural notions".

Is it scientifically possible, on the basis of the information we possess of Atlantis, to say that we have at last discovered the lost island’s geographical location?

The hitherto most reliable texts, Plato’s writings, have been carefully studied by many archaeologists and amateur researchers. The other text that we have mentioned in the above, "Toward the Light", is a much more recent text; it was first published in 1920.

Plato left us with fairytale-like and approximate indications – while "Toward the Light" describes Atlantis’ culture and level of civilization very accurately – besides offering its precise geographical position. The above study, based on the maps at our disposal today – which most certainly were not available to those persons who wrote down and published "Toward the Light" – demonstrates beyond doubt that the mentioned geographical coordinates are to be taken very seriously.

**********************

Other links for those who want to learn more about the geological nature of ocean floor of the Mid-Atlantic Ridge – the experts’ comments may be found at the following URLs:

· From "Science for Everyone", a ‘field study’ of the MAR containing interesting data on the eruptive processes and the tectonic movements typical of the area: http://www.agu.org/sci_soc/eosdksmith.html

· Exceptional images at: http://www.ngdc.noaa.gov/mgg/image/2minrelief.html
The entire site http://www.ngdc.noaa.gov displays various types of geographical maps. A web site worth visiting.

http://www.altrementi.com/english/literary/mid-atl_ridge.htm
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Carolyn Silver
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« Reply #124 on: August 11, 2008, 02:11:47 am »

The Celtic Shelf hypothesis:

Atlantis: New Hypothesis

by Viatcheslav Koudriavtsev


------------------------------------------------------------------------

FROM THE AUTHOR

This is the third edition of my paper. The first one was sent as a brochure "Returning to the Enigma of Plato's Atlantis" to Ancient History Departments of some Universities and to Geographical Societies of a number of countries in June 1995. The magazine version of it has come out in the May 1996 issue of "Vokrug Sveta" ("Around the World", Magazine of Travels, Adventures and SF) - a kind of Russian "National Geographic". The second one was published in some newsgroups and mailing lists in February - March 1996. In the present edition I am trying to provide answers to most of the questions I was asked after those publications. Besides, I have since found some materials illustrating some of my suggestions.

I would like to apologise for some prolixity of the introduction and maybe the slightly simplified style of setting forth some theses, which are due to the fact that the paper is meant not only for experts on the issue, but also for those who are not familiar in detail with a whole range of issues connected with the subject.

The two translations of Plato's dialogues Timaeus and Critias used are the Thomas Taylor translation first published in 1804 and considered to be classic (Plato. The Timaeus and the Critias or Atlantis. The Thomas Taylor translation. N.Y., Pantheon books, 1944) and the Desmond Lee translation, first published in 1965 (Timaeus) and in 1971 (Critias) (Plato. Timaeus and Critias. Penguin books, 1994).

I also had parallel texts of the dialogues in ancient Greek and in Latin (Platonis Opera. Graece et latine. Paris, 1877).

Where not specified, Desmond Lee's translation of Plato is quoted, since his language is more up-to-date.

After quotations in round brackets, it is indicated where in Plato's text the passage quoted belongs according to the traditionally accepted pagination.

The Greek words given in the explanation of quotations have been transcribed with Latin letters by the author because of the ASCII-codes format.

The bold type in the quotations and the explanations in square brackets are mine.

I would like to express my gratitude to: •V.E.Schitz for assistance in my work;

•M.A.Garntsev, Ph. D., Associate Professor, Department of the History of Foreign Philosophy, Faculty of Philosophy, Moscow State University, for consultations on the Greek text;

•E.Y.Koudriavtseva for help with translating the paper into English;

•M.V.Dyakonova of the Institute of Scientific Information on Social Sciences of the Russian Academy of Sciences.


INTRODUCTION

Everyone will have heard at one time or another the name of Atlantis mentioned, we can come across it in various contexts. Almost any encyclopedia these days is sure to have an article on Atlantis, which usually reads something like this: "Atlantis - according to an ancient Greek myth recorded by Plato, there had once existed a vast island in the Atlantic Ocean to the west of Gibraltar, with fertile soil, and densely populated, which sank to the bottom of the sea because of an earthquake. Questions of whether Atlantis has ever existed, and if so, why it vanished, today continue to arouse as much controversy among scientists as ever."

On The Source

Plato speaks of Atlantis in two works - dialogues Timaeus and Critias. Dialogue was a genre widely popular in Ancient Greece, in which information or ideas are not narrated by the author himself, but are presented to the reader by two or more interlocutors addressing each other. Such a genre is convenient for presenting differing views on the same subject and, besides, makes it possible to render the experience cited in support of the deliberations, concrete to the utmost. Therefore, the genre of the ancient Greek dialogues should not be seen merely as short-hand records of actual conversations.

In both dialogues the story of Atlantis is told by Critias, Plato's maternal great grandfather, narrating word for word the conversation between Solon and an Egyptian priest. In Timaeus the issue of Atlantis is raised along with many others, while the unfinished Critias, in all probability, was to be exclusively devoted to it. Critias also explains how he himself came to hear the story. He heard it from his grandfather whose name was also Critias, who, in his turn, had heard it from Solon himself, who had been a close friend of his father, Dropides.

In his conversation with Solon, the priest, referring to the sacred records, speaks of a powerful country, Atlantis, lying outside the Pillars of Hercules, of the beginning of a war between Atlanteans and the citizens of Athens and of a catastrophe which destroyed both, and resulted in Atlantis sinking to the bottom "in a single dreadful day and night".

The priest also says how many years have elapsed since - nine thousand years. Besides, Critias contains the myth of the origin of the rulers of Atlantis, the description of its geography, architecture and of its social life, all of which suggests the idea of imagination having been used to make up for the lack of information.

It is estimated that the dialogue took place around the year 425 B.C. (Plato himself must have been about 2 years old at the time). Critias-grandson, Plato's great grandfather, was probably about 80 at the time, and he had heard the story about 70 years before (i.e. around the year 495 B.C.), from Critias-grandfather, when the latter was about 90. Since Critias-grandfather had heard it from Solon himself, who belonged to the same generation as his father, it can be reasonably assumed that the conversation between Solon and the Egyptian priest took place around 600 - 575 B.C. Thus, it follows that, according to Plato, Atlantis vanished in the middle of the 10th millennium B.C.

Phenomenon Of Atlantis

Hardly anyone in the world knows exactly how many books have been written about Atlantis by the proponents and opponents of the idea that it once existed. Those who have attempted to count them, come up with widely diverging, albeit invariably four-digit numbers. No doubt, the topic of Atlantis could claim its place among he best-selling topics of the current century.

The special attention that Plato's narration about Atlantis gets can be accounted for by the fact that the country described in Timaeus and Critias does not fit in with our present-day ideas of the history of humanity, and the date of its vanishing, as recorded by Plato, goes back to unprecedentedly early times. If we treat this narration as trustworthy, a new and more comprehensive model of the history of mankind's development is essential.

The idea seems attractive to many, in view of the numerous blank spots and contradictions in the existing concept of the history of humanity (for instance, such as the vast span of time between the emergence of an anatomically modern Homo Sapiens and the development of the first civilisations), all the more so, that the text which could bring about a revision of the existing model is authored by Plato, who stands with Socrates and Aristotle as one of the shapers of the whole intellectual tradition of the West.

At the same time, Plato's narration about Atlantis stands by itself, it is not directly corroborated or indirectly echoed by anything, and in itself does not give sufficient grounds for such a revision.

Regrettably, most of the Atlantis enthusiasts are swayed by emotions, and this lures them away from the commitment to scientific correctness. They have found in the epos of many peoples of the world what they call "direct indications" of the Atlantean descent of these peoples. Deluded by wishful thinking, they often fall prey to perverted logic: "If the "Belt of Pyramids" exists, it follows that Atlantis also existed in reality."

In the upshot, the problem has become something of a scientific curiosity. Even if scientific data coming to light as time goes by, are interpreted in the context of Atlantis, as a rule, it is done in a biased way and has little in common with a balanced scientific approach.

Viewpoints

Without claiming to present an exhaustive survey of the existing viewpoints on the issue, I would like to list only the ones I believe to be the most widespread.

• Some believe that Atlantis is Plato's invention from beginning to end, which he needed to expound his ideas of an ideal state.

• Others, who do not consider Plato's narration to be an invention, persevere in trying to interpret it in a way which would make it possible to link it with the already explored archaeological sites. Thus, some of them contend that none other than the island of Crete is Plato's Atlantis, claiming also that Greeks used the name of the Pillars of Hercules, mentioned by Plato, not for what is now called the Strait of Gibraltar, but for some rocks which were situated on the way from Athens to Crete. Given such an interpretation, it becomes imperative for them to bring the date of the vanishing of Atlantis given by Plato, in line with the time of the decline of the Minoan civilisation, established by archaeologists, and link it to the explosion of Thera/Santorin. Hence, rise is given to the hypothesis that the span of time between the vanishing of Atlantis and the conversation between Solon and the priest is actually 10 times shorter, and that the mistake was made either when Egyptian priests were copying the sacred records (it is suggested that the characters denoting 100 and 1000 in the Egyptian hieroglyphic system of writing are alike) or because Plato himself, like all his contemporaries, had little sense of time and dating. The same thesis of a mistake of multiplication by ten is used by the proponents of the Cretan Atlantis as regards the dimensions of the island, for the numbers Plato gives in Critias do not quite fit in with their theory, to put it mildly. Similar arguments are used to substantiate a variety of hypotheses, including some according to which Atlantis was situated not even in the Mediterranean Sea, but in the Sea of Marmara or the Black Sea.

• Yet others, fervently believing in the truthfulness of the information provided by Plato, rush to search for Atlantis in the Atlantic Ocean. They have already announced, at different times, that the Azore, Canary and Bahama Islands, as well as some other more or less suitable ones, are the remains of Plato's sunken island. They also like to juggle with suggestions of mistakes in the numerals as regards the dimensions of Atlantis.

I will endeavour to analyse once again Plato's narration, comparing its basic elements and their interpretations with some fairly credible facts, and suggest for your consideration one more hypothesis, which, in my opinion, hardly has more weak points, vulnerable to criticism, than the already existing on
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« Reply #125 on: August 11, 2008, 02:12:22 am »

INVENTION ?

First of all, it is highly doubtful that Plato would have had to invent Atlantis to expound his ideas of an ideal state system, - indeed, he had previously expounded them more than once in his other works, without any geographical hoaxes.

Secondly, in Timaeus itself there already exists - and is actively used by Plato - an object only too suitable for setting forth utopian concepts - the pre-historic Athens, so the supposition that Plato needed to invent specifically for the purpose a second, let alone such an exotic one as Atlantis, seems rather far-fetched.

Thirdly, the explanation of how the information of Atlantis came to Plato's notice, does not seem to contain logical contradictions, which in itself enhances its credibility. It also sounds convincing that events of such ancient history are narrated to Solon by none other than an Egyptian priest, and the way he explains why Greeks had lost their historical memory.

"You are all [Greeks] young in mind," came the reply: "you have no belief rooted in old tradition and no knowledge hoary with age. And the reason is this. There have been and will be many different calamities to destroy mankind, the greatest of them by fire and water, lesser ones by countless other means...

But in our temples we have preserved from earliest times a written record of any great or splendid achievement or notable event which has come to our ears whether it occurred in your part of the world or here or anywhere else; whereas with you and others, writing and the other necessities of civilisation have only just been developed when the periodic scourge of the deluge descends, and spares none but the unlettered and uncultured, so that you have to begin again like children, in complete ignorance of what happened in our part of the world or in yours in early times...

You remember only one deluge, though there have been many, and you do not know that the finest and best race of men that ever existed lived in your country; you and your fellow citizens are descended from the few survivors that remained, but you know nothing about it because so many succeeding generations left no record in writing". (Tim. 22d-23c)

Of course, the archaeological data on which modern ideas of the past of humanity are based, is vast. But the history of Earth has seen a lot of natural cataclysms of enormous proportions, and we cannot completely discard the possibility that the historical memory of humanity has indeed been curtailed, due to the destruction of material evidence by a catastrophe more violent than the ones we know of in the so-called "historical time". (Just imagine what the picture of life on Earth in the 19th century would have looked like a thousand years later, if both Europe and North America had been erased from the face of Earth by some catastrophe.)

WHEN ?

Assertions that Plato had a vague idea of time and chronology do not seem well-substantiated. Besides, there is such a natural approximate measure for assessing large spans of time as a generation, and it does not seem likely that Plato did not perceive the distinction between a period covering the lifespans of several tens of generations and that encompassing several hundreds of generations. (Hardly anyone would assert that Plato had a vague idea of the distinction between tens and hundreds.)

Any assumption that Solon made a mistake in reading the Egyptian hieroglyphs he did not know sufficiently well, should be discarded as Plato explicitly says that he did not read the sacred records himself, but was told of their contents by the priest.

Another reason for the mistake of multiplication by 10 might have been the misunderstanding by Solon of the numerals in the Egyptian priest's story, which is highly improbable, since, firstly, there are several numerals in the story, and, secondly, the spans of time which these numerals describe are interrelated in the priest's story.

"Solon was astonished at what he heard and eagerly begged the priests to describe to him in detail the doings of these citizens of the past. "I will gladly do so, Solon," replied the priest, "both for your sake and your city's, but chiefly in gratitude to the Goddess to whom it has fallen to bring up and educate both your country and ours - yours first, when she took over your seed from Earth and Hephaestus, ours a thousand years later. The age of our institutions is given in our sacred records as eight thousand years, and the citizens whose laws and whose finest achievement I will now briefly describe to you therefore lived nine thousand years ago; we will go through their history in detail later on at leisure, when we can consult the records." (Tim. 23d-24a)

However, if we do assume that Solon misunderstood the priest, it would be difficult to imagine an Egyptian priest who, around the year 600 B.C. gives the age of civilisation in the Nile Valley as 800 years. And it would be an outright impossibility to assume that sacred records could have contained such nonsense, and that "nine thousand years" only appeared in the story in the process of copying, as a result of an accidental substitution of the character denoting thousands for another one, denoting hundreds.

Yet another argument against the alleged mistake of multiplication by ten is the fact that none of the sources dealing with the second millennium B.C., contains any reference to what is described by Plato in his narrative about Atlantis, and consequently, either his narrative, after all, is a hoax, or it is really a case of information lost and accidentally retrieved - information going back to a much earlier period.
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« Reply #126 on: August 11, 2008, 02:12:33 am »

INVENTION ?

First of all, it is highly doubtful that Plato would have had to invent Atlantis to expound his ideas of an ideal state system, - indeed, he had previously expounded them more than once in his other works, without any geographical hoaxes.

Secondly, in Timaeus itself there already exists - and is actively used by Plato - an object only too suitable for setting forth utopian concepts - the pre-historic Athens, so the supposition that Plato needed to invent specifically for the purpose a second, let alone such an exotic one as Atlantis, seems rather far-fetched.

Thirdly, the explanation of how the information of Atlantis came to Plato's notice, does not seem to contain logical contradictions, which in itself enhances its credibility. It also sounds convincing that events of such ancient history are narrated to Solon by none other than an Egyptian priest, and the way he explains why Greeks had lost their historical memory.

"You are all [Greeks] young in mind," came the reply: "you have no belief rooted in old tradition and no knowledge hoary with age. And the reason is this. There have been and will be many different calamities to destroy mankind, the greatest of them by fire and water, lesser ones by countless other means...

But in our temples we have preserved from earliest times a written record of any great or splendid achievement or notable event which has come to our ears whether it occurred in your part of the world or here or anywhere else; whereas with you and others, writing and the other necessities of civilisation have only just been developed when the periodic scourge of the deluge descends, and spares none but the unlettered and uncultured, so that you have to begin again like children, in complete ignorance of what happened in our part of the world or in yours in early times...

You remember only one deluge, though there have been many, and you do not know that the finest and best race of men that ever existed lived in your country; you and your fellow citizens are descended from the few survivors that remained, but you know nothing about it because so many succeeding generations left no record in writing". (Tim. 22d-23c)

Of course, the archaeological data on which modern ideas of the past of humanity are based, is vast. But the history of Earth has seen a lot of natural cataclysms of enormous proportions, and we cannot completely discard the possibility that the historical memory of humanity has indeed been curtailed, due to the destruction of material evidence by a catastrophe more violent than the ones we know of in the so-called "historical time". (Just imagine what the picture of life on Earth in the 19th century would have looked like a thousand years later, if both Europe and North America had been erased from the face of Earth by some catastrophe.)

WHEN ?

Assertions that Plato had a vague idea of time and chronology do not seem well-substantiated. Besides, there is such a natural approximate measure for assessing large spans of time as a generation, and it does not seem likely that Plato did not perceive the distinction between a period covering the lifespans of several tens of generations and that encompassing several hundreds of generations. (Hardly anyone would assert that Plato had a vague idea of the distinction between tens and hundreds.)

Any assumption that Solon made a mistake in reading the Egyptian hieroglyphs he did not know sufficiently well, should be discarded as Plato explicitly says that he did not read the sacred records himself, but was told of their contents by the priest.

Another reason for the mistake of multiplication by 10 might have been the misunderstanding by Solon of the numerals in the Egyptian priest's story, which is highly improbable, since, firstly, there are several numerals in the story, and, secondly, the spans of time which these numerals describe are interrelated in the priest's story.

"Solon was astonished at what he heard and eagerly begged the priests to describe to him in detail the doings of these citizens of the past. "I will gladly do so, Solon," replied the priest, "both for your sake and your city's, but chiefly in gratitude to the Goddess to whom it has fallen to bring up and educate both your country and ours - yours first, when she took over your seed from Earth and Hephaestus, ours a thousand years later. The age of our institutions is given in our sacred records as eight thousand years, and the citizens whose laws and whose finest achievement I will now briefly describe to you therefore lived nine thousand years ago; we will go through their history in detail later on at leisure, when we can consult the records." (Tim. 23d-24a)

However, if we do assume that Solon misunderstood the priest, it would be difficult to imagine an Egyptian priest who, around the year 600 B.C. gives the age of civilisation in the Nile Valley as 800 years. And it would be an outright impossibility to assume that sacred records could have contained such nonsense, and that "nine thousand years" only appeared in the story in the process of copying, as a result of an accidental substitution of the character denoting thousands for another one, denoting hundreds.

Yet another argument against the alleged mistake of multiplication by ten is the fact that none of the sources dealing with the second millennium B.C., contains any reference to what is described by Plato in his narrative about Atlantis, and consequently, either his narrative, after all, is a hoax, or it is really a case of information lost and accidentally retrieved - information going back to a much earlier period.
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« Reply #127 on: August 11, 2008, 02:13:12 am »

ISLAND ?

But the Greek nesos quite unambiguously is translated as "island", and I have no reasons whatsoever to assume that once upon a time it could have had another meaning as well. In the same vein, the Latin insula does not seem to allow other interpretations. So, is it possible to equate that area of land in the west of Europe with Plato's Atlantis? I believe, it is, and there are two possible explanations of why the word which means "island" is used for something that was actually not one:

1.What gives grounds for this is what Critias says in the dialogue of the same title about the distortion of names due to their translation from language to language as the story was transmitted:

"Before I begin, a brief word of explanation, in case you are surprised at hearing foreigners so often referred to by Greek names. The reason is this. Solon intended to use the story in his own poem. And when, on inquiring about the significance of the names, he learned that the Egyptians had translated the originals into their own language, he went through the reverse process, and as he learned the meaning of a name wrote it down in Greek. My father had his manuscript, which is now in my possession, and I studied it often as a child. So if you hear names like those we use here, don't be surprised; I have given you the reason." (Critias. 113a-b)

It would seem appropriate to assume that, in being retold and passed so many times over, and in being translated from language to language, and in attempts to grasp the information through the prism of geographic realities which had already changed, a reduction of such notions as "land, territory, country - island" might have taken place.

After I have criticised unwarranted assumptions in the Mediterranean hypotheses, and assertions that mistakes had been made in the numerals, the readers may now reproach me for considerably stretching a point in interpreting Plato's narrative. That is why I would like to quote several passages, which, I believe, substantiate the legitimacy of my assumption, if in reading them we abstract ourselves from the word "island" (which I for convenience shall write in slash marks), focusing instead on the context in which it is used.

Of great interest is what Critias says after concluding the description of the capital city of Atlanteans:

"I have given you a pretty complete account of what was told me about the city and its original buildings; I must now try to recall the nature and organisation of the rest of the country. To begin with the region as a whole was said to be high above the level of the sea, from which it rose precipitously; the city was surrounded by a uniformly flat plain, which was in turn enclosed by mountains which came right down to the sea. The plain was rectangular in shape, measuring three thousand stades in length and at its midpoint two thousand stades in breadth from the coast. This whole area of the /island/ faced south, and was sheltered from the north winds." (Critias. 117e-118a)

As we see, the description is rather contradictory. The thing is that in the Greek text, after Critias says that having described the city, he will proceed to the narration of the nature of the rest of the territory tes d allas khoras os e phusis, he actually returns to the description of the city as the place topos situated high above the sea level, from which it rises precipitously, after which he contrasts it de with the flat plain surrounding the city. Such an interpretation of the logic of the passage is borne out by the use in the same passage of two words - khoras and topos, which semantically must refer to different notions, hence, it was only the city that was situated high above the sea level, but not the plain. And again there is no indication whatsoever of land surrounded by the sea on all sides. The only image evoked by this description is that of a city on a hill rising precipitously from the sea, and the flat plain surrounding it, enclosed on three sides by mountains. This description suits in every detail, the land that once existed in the west of Europe: the mountains are the present Ireland, Great Britain and, possibly, the north-western part of France; the plain itself, which now constitutes the shelf to the south of the British Isles (sometimes called the Celtic Shelf) fits the dimensions specified by Plato, and the edge of the continental platform faces south-southwest. At about 48 d 25-30' N and 8 d 45-51' W, not far from this edge, there is a remarkable underwater hill called the Little Sole Bank marked on sufficiently minute maps. The top of the hill is 57 metres below the sea level, while the average depth around it is 130 - 160 metres. The hill is located approximately in the middle of the greater length of the plain in question (See again map of the Celtic Shelf).

Of course, the coastline of any island should form a closed circuit, and its length can be roughly estimated, as well as the width of the island. Plato's Critias, however, while giving in minute detail the dimensions of the plain adjoining the city, and giving the length of the canal encircling it, says nothing of the dimensions of the island as such, except that it was "larger than Asia and Libya combined".

Besides, it is not quite clear to what we owe the emergence of the stereotype, according to which Atlantis was situated "to the west" of Gibraltar, or "facing" it.

Thomas Taylor's translation reads:

"For at that time the Atlantic sea was navigable, and had an /island/ before that mouth which is called by you the Pillars of Hercules."

Desmond Lee in his translation uses the English word "opposite" to describe the location of Atlantis in relation to the strait, but we must take into account that he changed the logic of the description (Plato mentioned Atlantis in the Atlantic Ocean context, but Lee describes it from the Mediterranean-centric viewpoint):

"For in those days the Atlantic was navigable. There was an /island/ opposite the strait which you call (so you say) the Pillars of Heracles..." (Tim. 24e)

The Greek preposition pro used by Plato in this passage means only that the island was situated "before" the strait, i.e. outside the Mediterranean, which means that the logical extension of its meaning towards denoting "immediately beyond", "right before" or "facing" (which gave rise to the traditional "to the west of") - is nothing but the second-guessing zeal of Plato's translators.

Nowhere does Plato call Atlanteans "islanders" - as a rule, the only specific point he makes is to emphasise the same contrast - that they did not live on the shores of the Mediterranean Sea:

"We must first remind ourselves that in all nine thousand years have elapsed since the declaration of war between those who lived outside and all those who lived inside the Pillars of Heracles." (Critias. 108e)

And this is how he describes the territories controlled by Atlanteans:

"They and their descendants for many generations governed their own territories and many other islands in the ocean and, as has already been said, also controlled the populations this side of the straits as far as Egypt and Tyrrhenia." (Critias. 114c)

Let us also note that nowhere does he speak of the territories controlled by Atlanteans in terms of areas, describing only the length of the coastline. In all probability, it is connected with the geographical outlook of the time, shaped by the fact that people travelled mainly by sea, and maybe also by the specific features of population distribution in conditions of the Ice Age.
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« Reply #128 on: August 11, 2008, 02:13:22 am »

Let us now once again return to the already quoted passage about the distribution of allocations between Poseidon's sons.

In Desmond Lee's translation:

"His twin, to whom was allocated the furthest part of the /island/ towards the Pillars of Heracles and facing the district now called Gadira, was called in Greek Eumelus but in his own language Gadirus..." (Critias. 114b)

In Thomas Taylor's translation:

"But the twin son that was born immediately after Atlas, and who was allotted the extreme parts of the /island/, towards the pillars of Hercules, as far as to the region which at present from that place is called Gadiric, he denominated according to his native tongue Gadirus, but which we call in Greek Eumelus."

Taylor's translation in this case is closer to the original, since the Greek epi to, like the Latin pars ad, almost always means "as far as to", "right up to", "bordering on". The reader will probably agree that but for the word "island" the description would accurately suit the district in the south of modern Portugal which is the part of Atlantic coast closest to Gibraltar (See map of Western Europe).

2.The narration of Atlantis in Plato's Critias begins with the myth of its origins (about Evenor and Leucippe, Poseidon and Cleito), which includes a description that baffles most of the translators and interpreters. Not only is it contradictory in itself, indeed, it contradicts most of the subsequent descriptions of Atlantis, which we have already discussed (as regards the dimensions of the plain and the size of the hill):

"At the centre of the island, near the sea, was a plain, said to be the most beautiful and fertile of all plains, and near the middle of this plain about fifty stades [9.65 km] inland a hill of no great size," (Critias. 113b)

- Lee translates, and makes a footnote that by saying "at the centre of the island" Plato meant "midway along its greatest length".

Taylor translates the passage as follows:

"Towards the sea, but in the middle of the island, there was a plain..."

In the Latin translation the word media is used here, which means "middle". In Plato's original the phrase kata de meson is used, which means "around the middle", "approximately in the middle", with the word meson from mesos usually implying the middle of a linear segment, while for the notion of "centre" another word exists. Besides, a long island, whose length considerably exceeds its width, must have two longer sides, and if it were really the description of an island, then an indication should have been given, the middle of which side is meant. So, without a stretch, this description could only be understood as the middle of a certain segment of the coastline.

On the other hand, the myth cannot but go back to the time preceding the time of the catastrophe by several thousand years, when the sea level had not yet gone down to its lowest mark, so that this place became a hill on the coast of the sea, but was still an island (See again map of the Celtic Shelf), which,

• firstly, eliminates all the contradictions, i.e. it becomes clear, why "near the middle of this plain about fifty stades inland", while the plain measured "three thousand stades in length and at its midpoint two thousand stades in breadth from the coast" and was "larger than Asia and Libya combined", and why the hill was "of no great size" while "the region [of the city] as a whole was said to be high above the level of the sea, from which it rose precipitously";

• secondly, makes it possible to assume that in relation to Atlantis the word "island" is used, because the central part of the city, surrounded by a canal (water ring) and situated on the top of the hill which used to be an island, historically continued to be called "King's Island" or "Poseidon's Island". Hence, possibly, the use of the word "island" in relation to the whole city and country by all who transmitted the narration, including Plato.

CLIMATE

Paleoclimatology gives a fairly clear picture of the climate during the Ice Age, based mainly on the paleobotanic data. Without describing in detail the distribution of climatic zones in the regions of Europe, I would like to note only that the temperature decreased with distance from the sea and with altitude above the sea level much more dramatically than in the present conditions, since climate on the whole was much more continental, and the climatic zones most suitable for habitation, i.e. zones with a moderate sea climate, were located in the not-too-wide strip of land along the seacoast. (The climatic conditions of all the other territories were so harsh, that they ruled out the development of civilisation there, that is why the palaeolithic settlements discovered by archaeologists, dating to the same period, in no way contradict this hypothesis.)

The climate of the territory in question for a number of reasons was extremely favourable.

• Firstly, the vast territory in close proximity of the ocean was only slightly elevated above the ocean level.

• Secondly, the plain was protected from northern winds and the cold influence of the ice sheet covering Scandinavia, exactly as in Plato's narrative, by the mountains, albeit not high, which encircled it.

• Thirdly, there are reasons to believe that a warm current, now known as Gulf Stream - North Atlantic Drift, washing the shores of western and northern Europe, used to wash the shores of the territory in point.
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« Reply #129 on: August 11, 2008, 02:13:55 am »

TRAVELLING TO THE OPPOSITE CONTINENT

For finding the answer to the question of where Atlantis was situated, the passage describing its whereabouts in relation to landmarks other than the Pillars of Hercules is of particular interest:

"...from it [Atlantis] travellers could in those days reach the other islands, and from them the whole opposite continent which surrounds what can truly be called the ocean." (Tim. 24e-25a)

In Thomas Taylor's translation it reads as follows:

"...and afforded an easy passage to other neighbouring islands; as it was likewise easy to pass from those islands to all the continent which borders on this Atlantic sea. For the waters which are beheld within the mouth which we just now mentioned, have the form of a bay with a narrow entrance; but the mouth itself is a true sea. And lastly, the earth which surrounds it is in every respect truly denominated the continent."

The argument about whether America is implied in this passage or not, can be veritably endless. But such a vision of the ocean surrounded by land, is strange, to say the least, for Plato of Greece or even for his imagination. Indeed, Greeks themselves did not know of America. So, this is a serious argument in support of the idea that Plato really possessed some information which had been lost long before his time, and that thanks to him, we have received uniquely ancient recorded information.

The phased character of sailing to the "opposite continent" in itself suggests the idea of the not-too-high level of navigation skills. The manner of action described would be appropriate for the Vikings' voyage to the island of Newfoundland, rather than for Columbus's search of a westward route to India. It is well known that both ancient Egyptians and the ancient Greeks we know of, sailed the seas on their ships, keeping to the coast and never losing sight of it. The very look of ancient maps testifies to this. So does the fact that no evidence has been found, that either Greeks or even Egyptians were familiar with the principles of navigation used in sailing the open seas. There are no grounds to believe that matters were different as regards Plato's Atlanteans and ancient Athenians.

Taking into account these considerations, we can see that in Timaeus a very accurate description is given of the route from the west of Europe to the above-mentioned island of Newfoundland via Iceland, Greenland and smaller islands, which, given a lower level of the ocean, must have been more numerous on the way.

CATASTROPHE

Attempts to link the vanishing of Atlantis to the rise of the world ocean level following the end of the last Ice Age have always met with serious objections. It is believed that the ocean level had been rising with different speed for over two thousand years, and critics asserted that the process did not correspond to the catastrophic character of what Plato described - the vanishing of Atlantis "in a single dreadful day and night". There may be two possible explanations of this discrepancy:

1.The first explanation is rather traditional: a tidal wave (tsunami) following some natural calamity destroyed the city and killed the armies, and then all the artifacts had been slowly (over thousands of years) swallowed by the ocean.

2.The second explanation is a little more complex. It is possible that the rising of the sea level may have been much faster than is commonly believed. Let us try to clarify where the idea of the long duration of the process originated from in the first place. Conclusions about it are arrived at on the basis of

• paleoclimatic data on the rise in temperatures. But we must be aware of the extent to which these data are circumstantial for assessing the speed of the given process, and of the fact that the correlation between the mean temperature and the ocean level must be non-linear. (Let us recall an experiment from the school course of physics, when a vessel with ice is being heated, but the temperature of the water only starts rising after all the ice has melted.)

• data on the glacio-eustatic fluctuations of the ocean level, the shortcomings of which we have already discussed in section "WHERE?"

Meanwhile, up to now, very little is known about the reasons for the beginning and the end of the Ice Ages. The only thing that is evident is that for the mean temperature on the planet to rise, a vast amount of energy is required. In considering the temperature charts for various regions, we can observe that the warming that marked the end of the last Ice Age was more pronounced, dramatic and durable than all the previous ones (See graphs of climate change).

In view of this, it cannot be ruled out that the warming had been caused by some event (or events) of seismic, volcanic or atmospheric nature:

"At a later time [after beginning of war between Atlanteans and Athenians] there were earthquakes and floods of extraordinary violence, and in a single dreadful day and night all your fighting men were swallowed up by the earth, and the island of Atlantis was similarly swallowed up by the sea and vanished..." (Tim. 25c-d)

This cataclysm could have been connected with the release of a vast amount of energy. In that case, the speed of the glacier melting and the rise of the ocean level could have been considerably higher than is widely believed now.

Another argument to back the thesis that none other than the rising of the ocean level was the catastrophe that Plato described, is that the relief of the plain in point in the west of Europe was of such character, that the rising of the ocean level by one metre could often have meant the retreat of the coastline by kilometres. I am sure that even if the submerging lasted several years, the eye-witnesses (and victims), who were on a flat plain, must have perceived it as a very fast sinking of all the land they could see, from horizon to horizon (See again map of the Celtic Shelf).

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« Reply #130 on: August 11, 2008, 02:14:50 am »

RESUME

To sum up briefly all the above-said, the hypothesis can be formulated as follows:

At the time when the last Ice Age ended, the rising level of the world ocean resulted in the submerging of a sizeable territory in the west of Europe (which is now known as the Celtic Shelf) and where the centre of a highly developed civilisation and of a powerful state was situated. This state (or a commonwealth of states) controlled the whole Atlantic coast of Europe (and maybe North Africa), a considerable part of the Mediterranean coast of Europe and Africa and, possibly, could also sail the territories along the Atlantic coasts of North Africa, North and Central America. Along with this state, there existed other states in areas with a mild climate, in particular, "Ancient Athens", which entered into a coalition with other peoples of the Mediterranean to jointly resist the expansion of Atlantis. All the artifacts of these civilisations have either been irretrievably lost or are now on the bottom of the sea, that is why they have never come to the notice of the modern archaeological science. Neither have written records of that period been preserved, and the earliest written recording of the events of that period was made at least a thousand years later, in Egypt, on the basis of the still remaining folk memory, but it was already very general in character and imprecise. It was pure chance that it came to the notice of Plato and was recorded by him in the dialogues Timaeus and Critias. Throughout the whole chain of the passing down of this narrative, distortions and inaccuracies have accumulated, which, coupled with lack of corroborating evidence from other sources and archaeological finds, has determined its present ambiguous status.

POSSIBILITIES

The hypothesis we are putting forward, like any other hypothesis, is only a concept, and needs to be corroborated by facts. Since so far no such facts, recognised as trustworthy, have been found, it is evident that this is where the main problem lies. But it seems to me that there are fairly wide possibilities for solving it, even without resorting to the analysis of legends and myths, or looking for cultural parallels, which in itself is very interesting, but can hardly bring forward irrefutable proofs.

Certain conclusions can probably be drawn on the basis of analysing the data of such scientific disciplines as comparative linguistics and anthropometry, though in order to obtain acceptably reliable findings a gigantic volume of work will have to be done and a vast amount of information processed.

And, last but not least, since the hypothesis deals with the submerging of Plato's Atlantis as the ocean level rose, the most convincing evidence (if it exists at all) can be found underwater at depths from 50 to 160 metres. As far as I know, no systematic archaeological survey of the shelf at these depths has ever been undertaken by anyone. Neither is high resolution bathymetry of the area in question available (I contacted many oceanographic centres including UK Hydrographic Office, British Oceanographic Data Centre, Plymouth Marine Laboratory, IFREMER, NOAA, Defence Mapping Agency of the USA).

I intend to organise an expedition to the above-mentioned region, which could consist of two stages:

1.A sweep bathymetry survey of the area in question, using sonar and satellite navigation system, for the purpose of charting a very high resolution map. Analysis of the data thus obtained, using different methods, including computer techniques, to identify objects that could be of artificial nature.

2.If objects of this kind are identified in the area, organisation of underwater exploration and photographing them.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Any suggestions and comments are welcome to explor@glas.apc.org

------------------------------------------------------------------------

© 1996 Viatcheslav Y. Koudriavtsev

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Chronology and Catastrophism Review

Proceedings of The 1995 Braziers College Conference

Velikovsky 100th Birthday Memorial Meeting

Journal of the Society for Interdisciplinary Studies

1995 Special Issue (Volume XVII). ISSN 0953 0053


Atlantis: New Hypothesis

Modified 11 June 1996 @ 17:25 GMT

From explor@glas.apc.org Tue Jun 11 18:05:24 1996

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 3 Jun 96 17:21:16 +0400 (GMT+0400)

------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Vyatcheslav Koudriavtsev


DISCLAIMER:
I make no claims for the accuracy of this information and express no personal opinion on the matter. The information was acquired off the web and from authors (owners of said pages) and other sources and described as "information" and I wanted to pass it along to anyone who might find it interesting or otherwise useful. I'd appreciate any feedback you'd care to share with me if you wish to proceed in a civilized manner. If the work is yours please email me and we can work something out.
I want to give them the credit they deserve or remove the piece.

http://www.think-aboutit.com/atlantis/AtlantisNewHypothesis.htm
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« Reply #131 on: August 11, 2008, 02:15:51 am »

Desiree

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   posted 03-17-2006 02:06 AM                       
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Russian researchers have held the Second Congress of Atlantis Explorers in Moscow

Has legendary Atlantis ever existed? Russian explorers and researchers have recently held a meeting in Moscow in order to discuss the material about the legendary continent and share their opinion with each other. Alexander Voronin, the director of the Russian association for studying Atlantis's problems stated at the meeting that Atlantis would be found. Alexander Voronin added that various findings in different parts of the planet proved the certainty of finding the lost continent.

Remains of the "big land" have been found in the water area of the Brazilian island of Sao Paulo; an undestroyed temple of thousands years old has been found in the sea not far from Europe. Voronin believes that such findings testify to the existence of a "central kingdom and numerous islands, on which ten Atlas brothers lived."

Participants of the meeting stated that there had been a lot of evidence collected to prove the existence of Atlantis. Researchers believe that one has to continue the quest, looking for other discoveries. As far as the significance of the lost continent's existence is concerned, Alexander Gorodnitsky, a member of the Russian Academy of Sciences said that the discovery of Atlantis might change the concept of nature and life development on planet Earth. Gorodnitsky believes that the proved existence of supreme civilizations in the past will make the up-to-date Darwinist society reconsider its views. Alexander Gorodnitsky has been on several expeditions to the places, where Atlantis allegedly existed. He still hopes to organize a targeted mission in order to study the problem in detail. "I am sure that this issue is extremely complicated and important, so one has to deal with it seriously, on a serious scientific level," Gorodnitsky was quoted as saying.

http://english.pravda.ru/science/19/94/377/10080_atlantis.html

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« Reply #132 on: August 11, 2008, 02:20:14 am »

 
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   posted 03-17-2006 11:50 PM                       
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---AZORES---
As for the subject of a possible discovery off the Azores Islands
in the Atlantic, here was the first item that I saw in my issue. You can read
the exact version at http://www.ancientamerican.com/issue41.htm as to
"U.S. Navy Atlantis Cover-up?" on p.36.


It seems a dispatch was put out from the mid-Atlantic and passed
on via William Donato who is President of The Atlantis Organization. This was
September 7th, 2001. A team was about 250 miles SW of the Azores.
  They had
some very high tech instruments which included underwater devices. They
were researching a 90 kilometer ledge. Why? Because these items were
"spotted" (I am unsure of the exact terminology depending on what devices were used).
They found a temple supported by 9 pillars(3 feet in diameter). The
pillars supported a flat roof of 20 feet x 30 feet wide. Remains of 5 circular
canals, along with bridges. And 4 rings of structures like the centrally
located temple. Location is approximately in 2800 feet in the Mid-Atlantic
ridge. At the moment it seems to be stable. They tried sending photos but
were jammed either inadvertantly or on purpose by several military ships
which carried a US flag. The dispatch notes their research ship was there
on a special research project for Spain. Finally they were chased off by the
military ship/ships.
Mountains are said to rise within 300 feet of the
surface also in this vicinity. Using sonar, they tried following the ridge
west, but slowly towards the south. It is believed they may connect with a
shelf near Hispaniola and heads to Cuba.


Another ship tried tracking the ridge towards England or to its
East. However, the military ships seem to be doing maneuvers, but as if
they are trying to prevent the research.

NOW, awhile back, some updated information came to me, and they
wanted to remain anonymous due to governmental interference. So I guess
the best thing to do is make up a name to refer to them for future reference.
As much as I hate to, I guess some steps are necessary to protect others. And
I would not want to be the one to cause problems for them or endanger them.
So we will refer to him as AnonyMous, which will make it easy for me to
remember.


AnonyMous has shared some items on the Azores "find", but in brief
& very quickly. So my notes may not be complete. But the story I was given
goes like this. AnonyMous explained he was not on any of the ships when
the discovery was made, but calls them colleagues. And his information is
direct from them. Just like in the article, a Bathoscope was one item used. The
complex(my term here) consists of about 30 to 40 structures, and they seem
to be uncannily preserved. The "settlement"(his term) is about 2200 feet
deep which is about the same as Cuba's find. There are "rounds" or
circles, and on one end there seems to be a harbor, sort of like Plato's
description.


Elsewhere recently, about 5 islands have surfaced 250 miles SW of
the Azores. However, this does occur frequently in the Atlantic. Here
today, gone tomorrow. Perhaps.... Time will tell.



At night they noticed something most unusual. It appears as if the
bottom is moving. It seems to rise 35 to 40 feet. I am not sure, but I
think it stabilized, bit I might be wrong.


They have retrieved a few pieces. Even though underwater for a
very long time, the Carbon-14 testing reveals a time which places it back in
the 10,000 BC era or 12,500 years back era. One plate (possible plaque) had
very strange pictographs on it. But it seems different from anything we know of
in today's time.


Further on the circles, there are 9 circles joined & separated. 3
Circles open to a Causeway.


In the middle of the complex, what appears to be a giant crystal
either 40 or 400 feet across(my notes have a contradiction as to if the
second zero was there). There is a huge 30 meter high statue that is
intact. Who knows, it may even be of Poseidon. Time will tell.



I have a note about the odd weight of one piece, but unsure of
what the oddity was. One pioece was tested with a laser, but it did nothing to
it. The material is not like anything we have today.

And AnonyMous wonders just why the government is trying to
suppress this find. Is it due to power, money, superiority, or just what. I was
informed that not only were there US Navy ships, but British ones as well,
and I think another countries if not mistaken. There is no question the
research ships were prevented from doing any more, as it was deliberate,
not just due to practice maneuvers. But the crew(s), as well as others, have
been threatened to turn over their find. However, nobody has given up the
data or the location of the find.


He named a few agencies of the US involved, such as CIA(Central
Intelligence Agency) & DIA(Defense Intelligence Agency), and of course the
Navy. These were the main 3 agencies that have kept this find suppressed.


He was afraid that if the government got the data, this find will
never be brought forth into the public's eye(into the community was his
thoughts) and into the scientific world. In other words, they want it out
in the open & want everything to be handled scientifically to document
everything. Their query is what we all want, to know of our past so that
we can face the future & not make the same mistakes.

I guess I'll end it here, except AnonyMous noted that Paulina and
those involved in the Cuba find have also been threatened if not being
suppressed. I have known of the CIA threatening researchers in the
Carribean concerning finds for a couple of years now. An archaeologist told me some
of the goings on behind the scenes. You would be amazed as to how far the CIA
has infiltrated the Atlantis researchers It is sad that such a thing
exists.


Now before anybody thinks I am into promoting a bunch of
conspiracies, I assure you, I am not. My hopes are that the researchers
will some day be free of interference & suppression so that we might find the
truth of our existence, or I should say our distant past reaching out to
our far future.
________________________________________________________________________
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http://www.cyberspaceorbit.com/cublatx.htm

[ 03-17-2006, 11:51 PM: Message edited by: Desiree ]
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Carolyn Silver
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« Reply #133 on: August 11, 2008, 02:20:43 am »

 
I_am_that_I_am

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   posted 03-18-2006 12:03 AM                       
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As soon as I see the name Donato, I cringe...Nothing good ever is associated with that name, from what I have seen.

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KNOW that as ye do unto the least of thy associates ye do
unto the GOD within THEE that is in the image of the God
without.
E.C.

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« Reply #134 on: August 11, 2008, 02:21:07 am »

Desiree

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   posted 03-18-2006 12:26 AM                       
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Well, he was only remotely connected with this find - he got a dispatch!

So what do you have against him? He is a seasoned archaeologist and working with Greg Little!
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