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Mythology & Heroic Sagas of Culture & Myth => Mythology => Topic started by: Artemis on April 15, 2007, 07:24:00 pm



Title: Were the Gods of Mythology Based on Actual Human Beings?
Post by: Artemis on April 15, 2007, 07:24:00 pm
Near as I can tell, mythology seems to serve two purposes for me:

*For humans to believe in something greater than themselves.

*For human beings to explain the otherwise unexplainable.

The shape of landscapes is frequently attributed to the workings of the gods. The story of the Olympians against the Titans has been said to be a metaphor for the Greeks defeating the original tribe that dwelled on their peninsula.

In the book, "From the Ashes of Angels," by Andrew Collins, the Watchers, too, were said to be actual human beings who's story evolved into that of legendary angels.

Did people like Zeus, Hera, Ouranus, Chronos and Gaia actually exist?

Did the story of Zeus, as a god, simply evolve from the story of Zeus, a military commander who defeated the Alanteans?

And did Poseidon, Cleito and all their children actually exist, not as gods but as real people?

Most myths are based on fact. Is the fact of this that some of these people actually were alive..?


Title: Re: Were the Gods of Mythology Based on Actual Human Beings?
Post by: Artemis on April 15, 2007, 07:26:00 pm
To get us started, I will include the original discussion which originally took place at another forum:

rockessence

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   posted 09-09-2005 01:50 AM                       
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Hi Artemis,

Check out www.bocksaga.de and www.bocksaga.com for a clear explanation of those who were later called "gods"....

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Anwndur
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Hi Artemis,

Perhaps they really were gods and goddesses, just like the Ancients said they were.

Tony

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Ordo Anno Mundi: Original Ancient Mysteries

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docyabut
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Artemus, some not all could a have been real people.The titans could have been based on a real tribe and in myth many stories were added to their characters.
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docyabut
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as gods:)
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Rich

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   posted 09-09-2005 09:03 AM                       
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Artemus,
I think the gods were real humans. I think they interacted with real humans, and you can come up with time-frames for when they lived. I think a person who is a great boatsman could be named poseidon, or a great forge-man hephaestus.

In greek mythology, there are sur-names... which generally tell the parent of this god. Unfortunately, most story-telling drops these sur-names. Then these gods get merged.

Of course some of the stories are allegorical, but as you said, most myths are based on fact.
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KTCat

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   posted 09-09-2005 09:45 AM                       
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I think that perhaps originally the gods must have been extraterrestrial and arrived on Earth as part of a life seeding mission. And then something went really wrong and they all got in a great big arguement about who was going to be boss. That arguement evolved into a war between the god systems which ultimately ended in the destruction of most of the early civilizations on earth. The early descendants of those gods were the "legacy" civilizations, the survivors of a pole flip; people who all believed they came from holy bloodlines. These became the kings and queens of most of our myths and one's status as a god was based upon the so called purity of one's bloodlines; the guy at the top of the dog-pile was almost always called a god. It's often used as a title of kingship in the texts, and kingship was all about bloodlines.

Some of that legacy civilization also seems to have kept their technological skills in tact while most surviving races were plunged back to the beginning again and were returned to a hunter-gatherer lifestyle by circumstance.

Except for the very earliest of tales, those who kept hold of their previous technological advances appear to have been only men who that used technology to "play god" over their fellow man. One thing becomes obvious in the ancient texts. "The gods", whoever they were, were for the most part no better or worse than human beings are today.

And I'll bet they all let farts.

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Artemis

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   posted 09-12-2005 10:23 PM                       
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Thank you for your input, everyone. I am of the opinion that the gods might have been mortals who's efforts were exaggerated through time. Of course, I don't discount the extraterrestial angle either, anything is possible and I can see how aliens may have been mistaken for gods if they actually did visit the earth. I remember a Star Trek episode based on that very thing.

But were there ever any figures through history that also happened to have the names of these gods? Or are we simply reading the mythologies wrong and they are attempting to describe human figures, not gods..?
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Rich

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   posted 09-12-2005 10:44 PM                       
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The First guy to use swords, might be called Hephaestus, the first to conquer by boat might be called Poseidon. A great astronomer might be called Atlas. There are many good articles along this line, told by phoenicians, greeks, etc... Trying to figure out who these people really were, and when they lived.
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cleasterwood

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   posted 09-13-2005 03:41 AM                       
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Artemis,

Here's my take on the subject.

Some of the demi-gods were born onto the planet as real humans who reached the status of demi-god through their actions in life, which did get exaggarated over time. However, the gods were not humans, per say, but human spirits who after becoming more grounded in physical joy were transformed into physical human beings. These spirit-humans lived long lives, like Methusela(sp), which accounts for their god-like status and their ability to travel over the world and teach spirituality, which they were ordered to do by the All Father to allow them to return to the spirit form once their physical bodies died. The only exception to this would have been the All Father, who remained pure and didn't become grounded to the earthly experience.

It's a little more involved than that, but I've given the basics.  Just my opinion on it.

Peace be with you,
Lynn

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docyabut
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Rich I mention this on another topic, it is strange that there are writings in Egypt, of how the old kingdom ended. There was mass starvation and in the writings people had to eat their children. A world wide climate change.

In greek myth Cronus leader of the Titians also was said to have eaten his childern to survive.This could be a clue to when the tribe of the Titans did excist.

At some time around 2300 BC, give or take a century or two, a large number of the major civilisations of the world collapsed, simultaneously it seems. The Akkadian Empire in Mesopotamia, the Old Kingdom in Egypt, the Early Bronze Age civilisation in Israel, Anatolia and Greece, as well as the Indus Valley civilisation in India, the Hilmand civilisation in Afghanistan and the Hongshan Culture in China - the first urban civilisations in the world - all fell into ruin at more or less the same time.


A thousand years later, at around 1200 BC, many of the civilisations of the same regions again collapsed at about the same time. This time, disaster overtook the Myceneans of Greece, the Hittites of Anatolia, the Egyptian New Kingdom, Late Bronze Age Israel, and the Shang Dynasty of China.

This could have been in the period of time, when the Greeks forgot some of their history.
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docyabut
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Artrimus,also in greek myth( lost my link) when a women had twins by her husband, the frist twin was thought to be the son of a God. The gods came in the night in many different forms, such as cows, bulls, a horses, and doves. Maybe to as why there were so many named after the Gods. I know way out there  but maybe when she dream of a certain animal, people identified it with a God.
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JC De La Torre

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In my fictional novel (now available hee, hee, hee), the Gods were ascended beings from another plane of existence (or dimension, if you will). In real life, I'd say the Gods were likely important early human figures in the history of man that were sensationalized into gods to help the humans cope with the loneliness of our existence.

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cleasterwood

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   posted 09-14-2005 03:32 AM                       
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Interesting JC. In my Novel in progress, I use what I mentioned above as an explanation.

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Smiley4554

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Well, even the Bible talks about "sons of God".

Remember, the children of the "sons of God" (i.e. angels) married human women & their "children" were "men of old" & "men of reknown". They are the ones we actually "remember".

I submit Genesis 6:


quote:
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1 When men began to increase in number on the earth and daughters were born to them, 2 the sons of God saw that the daughters of men were beautiful, and they married any of them they chose. 3 Then the LORD said, "My Spirit will not contend with [a] man forever, for he is mortal ; his days will be a hundred and twenty years."
4 The Nephilim were on the earth in those days—and also afterward—when the sons of God went to the daughters of men and had children by them. They were the heroes of old, men of renown.
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Now, it says the Nephilim were on the earth at the same time the "sons of God" married human women & had children by them.

Many people pre-suppose that the children were the "Nephilim", but that is not what it is saying - at least in this particular instance.

Now, who were those "men of old" & "men of reknown"?

We have many myths that contain great deeds by men such as Hercules and Perseus to name just 2 of them.

Who were they? They were the "children" of the "gods" and human women. They possessed some of the powers of the "gods" (angels), and as such, could complete unbelievable tasks, yet they weren't fully "gods". Obviously the mixture of "gods" & humans "diluted" the powers.

So, the mythological "gods" were probably, and easily, the angels (fallen probably).

There is written and oral documentation of the beginning the world over, and in almost every case (with a few deviations), they are identical.

So, we know that these mythological "gods" were definitely real - they were not imagined.

And, we also know that all of this happened prior to the "Great Flood".


quote:
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 11 Now the earth was corrupt in God's sight and was full of violence. 12 God saw how corrupt the earth had become, for all the people on earth had corrupted their ways.
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This is a clear description that the Earth's inhabitants at the time were at war with each other, that there was corruption in the government, etc..

What's interesting to note is that He says that the "people" & "man" was corrupt. The Nephilim nor the "sons of God" are not mentioned within the context.

God was only upset @ having made mankind. So, guys, now we have another interesting thought.

What happened to them before, during & after the Flood?

Well, one myth has a place the "gods" went to called Mount Olympus - a place obviously far above that of humans. It has long been thought that it was somewhere "in the heavens".

http://www.pantheon.org/articles/o/olympus.html


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Mount Olympus, in Greek mythology, is the abode of the chief god Zeus. Also, the foremost gods of the Greek pantheon have their palaces at the summit. It is here that the gods assemble to consume nectar and ambrosia ("immortal"), the substances which reinforces their immortality. According to the myth, the top of the Olympus, which is covered in snow and hidden in the clouds, reaches all the way into the aether. It is the highest mountain of Greece and lies on the border of Macedonia and Thessaly.
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Could it have been in Greece, or is it possible it was not exactly a mountain?

So, exactly where could it have been? Off of the Earth, perhaps?

Where did the name come from in the first place?

(The following is for fun).

http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap970915.html

http://volcano.und.nodak.edu/vwdocs/planet_volcano/mars/Shields/olympus_mons.html

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KTCat

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   posted 09-15-2005 06:30 AM                       
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Smiley, if we look at texts like "Atrahasis" then it becomes clear that the gods must have been very close to where the Ark landed, so we may assume they must have been near Mt. Ararat. The texts describes the gods watching the destruction of mankind in the flood, and many of them, particularly the female gods are weeping, and they are horrified that they ever made the decision to flood the earth.

The goddess watched and wept,
midwife of the gods, wise Mami:
“Let daylight…
Let it return and…!
However could I, in the assembly of the gods,
have ordered such a destruction with them?
Ellil was strong enough to give a wicked
Order.
Like Tiruru he ought to have cancelled that
wicked order!
I heard their cry leveled at me,
against myself, against my person.
Beyond my control my offspring have become
like white sheep.
As for me, how am I to live in a house of
bereavement?
My noise has turned to silence.
Could I go away, up to the sky
And live as in a cloister?
What was Anu’s intention as decision-maker?
It was his command that the gods his sons
Obeyed.
He who did not deliberate, but sent the Flood,
He who gathered the people to catastrophe.

(Atrahasis III, Myths from Mesopotamia, Dalley, p. 32-33)

Many of the texts suggest that the gods take to the sky, leaving all of mankind but Noah Atrahasis to drown in the flood.

Where she sat weeping, there the great gods
sat too,
But like sheep, could only fill their windpipes
with bleating.
Thirsty as they were, their lips
discharged only the rime of famine.
For seven days and seven nights
The torrent, storm and flood came on.”

Noah/Atrahasis finally finds land, and his first act is to provide a sacrifice; a burnt offering giving thanks to the gods.

The gods smelt the fragrance,
Gathered like flies over the offering.
When they had eaten the offering,
Nintu got up and blamed them all,
“Whatever came over Anu who makes the
decisions?
Did Ellil dare to come for the smoke offering?
Those two who did not deliberate, but sent
The Flood,
Gathered the people to catastrophe—
You agreed the destruction.”

They must have been watching Noah/Atrahasis land the ark at Mt. Ararat. In fact, it sounds like Noah, who had a boatload of animals, had the only food around and the gods were literally starving until he provides food for them.

Maybe Mt. Olympus and Mt. Ararat were one and the same place.

[ 09-15-2005, 06:33 AM: Message edited by: KTCat ]

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Smiley4554

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http://www.alternativearchaeology.org/html/atrahasis.html

I looked it up, and indeed, it sounds almost exactly the same.

The meaning of "cloister" is

http://encarta.msn.com/encyclopedia_1741500194/Cloister.html


quote:
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Cloister
Encyclopedia Article
Edit this article
Cloister, enclosed courtyard around which the ecclesiastical buildings of a church or monastery are arranged. A cloister is generally square or rectangular, open to the sky at its center and bordered by a covered walk on all sides. The cloister is customarily placed against the long south side of the church, fitting into the angle formed by the nave and transept areas of the church. Cloisters were also often built into medieval colleges such as the one at Magdalen College at the University of Oxford in Oxford, England.
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I found that an interesting "thought". Today, we say things like "well, what do you want me to do? Live in a glass bubble?"

But, the fact that he preceed it with
quote:
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Could I go away, up to the sky
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makes me think that he was "wishing" that he could do it.


Hmmmm.....I just thought of something.

You know, there is an ancient legend of a place called "Shangi La".

Based upon a myth,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shambhala


quote:
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In Tibetan Buddhist tradition, Shambhala (or Shambala) is a mystical kingdom hidden somewhere beyond the snowpeaks of the Himalayas. It is mentioned in various ancient texts including the Kalachakra and the ancient texts of the Zhang Zhung culture which pre-dated Tibetan Buddhism in western Tibet. The Bon scriptures speak of a closely-related land called Olmolungring.

The Kalachakra indicates that when the world declines into war and greed, and all is lost, a King of Shambhala will emerge from the secret city with a huge army to conquer evil and herald the Golden Age. Some suggest this king may be Kalki, a similar figure.
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Sounds a little familiar? And, it sounds as if this place is exactly what is described by Atrahasis.

It is thought that Sutlej Valley

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sutlej_Valley

is the location of this mythological place.

Could this myth also be associated?

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Title: Re: Were the Gods of Mythology Based on Actual Human Beings?
Post by: Artemis on April 15, 2007, 07:28:02 pm
Here is a list of many of the world's deities that I found interesting:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gods

Greek Mythology - the beliefs and ritual observances of the ancient Greeks, who became the first Western civilization about 2000 BC. It consists mainly of a body of diverse stories and legends about a variety of gods. Greek mythology had become fully developed by about the 700's BC.

Three classic collections of myths - Theogony by the poet Hesiod and the Iliad and the Odyssey by the poet Homer - appeared at about that time.

Greek mythology emphasized the weakness of humans in contrast to the great and terrifying powers of nature. The Greeks believed that their gods, who were immortal, controlled all aspects of nature. So the Greeks acknowledged that their lives were completely dependent on the good will of the gods. In general, the relations between people and gods were considered friendly. But the gods delivered severe punishment to mortals who showed unacceptable behavior, such as indulgent pride, extreme ambition, or even excessive prosperity.

The ancient Greeks themselves offered some explanations for the development of their mythology. In Sacred History, Euhemerus, a mythographer from the 300s BC, recorded the widespread belief that myths were distortions of history and the gods were heroes who had been glorified over time. The philosopher Prodicus of Ceos taught during the 400s BC that the gods were personifications of natural phenomena, such as the sun, moon, winds, and water. Herodotus, a Greek historian who lived during the 400s BC, believed that many Greek rituals were inherited from the Egyptians.

As Greek civilization developed, particularly during the Hellenistic period, which began about 323 BC, the mythology also changed. New philosophies and the influence of neighboring civilizations caused a gradual modification of Greek beliefs. However, the essential characteristics of the Greek gods and their legends remain unchanged.

http://www.crystalinks.com/greekmythology.html
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docyabut
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I think the Titians could have been a tribe in early Greece, as history says there were only tribes and herdsmen, that were living there around 2,300 bc. However they must have been known across the Mediterranean because the celts had their own gods, still spoke of the Titians battle and of having ships.

Celtic:
Heaven and Earth were great giants, and Heaven lay upon the Earth so that their children were crowded between them, and the children and their mother were unhappy in the darkness. The boldest of the sons led his brothers in cutting up Heaven into many pieces. From his skull they made the firmament. His spilling blood caused a great flood which killed all humans except a single pair, who were saved in a ship made by a beneficent Titan. The waters settled in hollows to become the oceans. The son who led in the mutilation of Heaven was a Titan and became their king, but the Titans and gods hated each other, and the king titan was driven from his throne by his son, who was born a god. That Titan at last went to the land of the departed. The Titan who built the ship, whom some consider to be the same as the king Titan, went there also.
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Smiley4554

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I don't think we've delved into these 2 writings by Homer, Doc, as it relates (possibly) to be an even older record of Atlantis.

Doc, you've given me an idea. Why don't we explore Homer's Odyssey - and the Illiad, but for our purposes, the Odyssey is probably the better one to explore.

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Artemis

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   posted 01-13-2006 06:15 PM                       
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Once again, I would like to delve into this for research purposes and see if anyone has any new ideas on the subject. I'll add more myself on it later.
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Herr_Saltzman

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  posted 01-13-2006 06:59 PM                   
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Regarding the Illiad, it is highly significant that the Atlantaean army has the same figures as the Trojan army -it signifies that many details about the country were not known, and were substituted with details from other myths. It also shows that the exact size of the Atlantaean army was not known.

In the Odyssey, we have an island called Thrinicia, thought by some to be Sicily, that is home to the God Helios and his cattle. It is the island of the sun, in the west, and associated with cattle -and with Atlantis, in my mind. So where is Thrinicia?

Sicily may have three corners, but these are not visible by sea -Thrinicia to my mind is smaller. Perhaps it is one of the islands between Italy and Sicily? This is significant because Italy was called Attalia, when it was thought to be at the far west, and when geographic knowledge is extended, Attalia was moved to Morocco, and so perhaps was Thrinicia. Maybe New Thrinicia is Cerne?

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rockessence

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   posted 01-13-2006 08:05 PM                       
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Artemis,

If you want to blow the lid off the "common knowledge" about the Iliad and the Odyssey, check out Felice Vinci's new book on the subject. Below I put the link to the thread elsewhere on this forum that has his preface and a lot of further discussion. Have fun!!

"The real scene of the Iliad and the Odyssey can be identified not in the Mediterranean Sea, where it proves to be weakened by many incongruities, but in the north of Europe. The sagas that gave rise to the two poems came from the Baltic regions, where the Bronze Age flourished in the 2nd millennium B. C. and many Homeric places, such as Troy and Ithaca, can still be identified. The blond seafarers who founded the Mycenaean civilization in the 16th century B. C. brought these tales from Scandinavia to Greece after the decline of the "climatic optimum". Then they rebuilt their original world, where the Trojan War and many other mythological events had taken place, in the Mediterranean; through many generations the memory of the heroic age and the feats performed by their ancestors in their lost homeland was preserved, and handed down to the following ages. This key allows us to easily open many doors that have been shut tight until now, as well as to consider the age-old question of the Indo-European diaspora and the origin of the Greek civilization from a new perspective."

HOMER IN THE BALTIC -Summary

(Felice Vinci)


http://forums.atlantisrising.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=000927

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All knowledge is to be used in the manner that will give help and assistance to others, and the desire is that the laws of the Creator be manifested in the physical world. E.Cayce 254-17

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Herr_Saltzman

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  posted 01-13-2006 09:06 PM                   
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Rockessence,

The theory that the Illiad and Odyssey is anywhere but the Aegean is utter rubbish.

I am sorry that the North (Scandinavia) do not have much of a history, as they were primitive barbarians until well into the 14th century AD, but that is not an excuse to steal other people's history, and make up "facts" to support it.

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Boreasi

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   posted 01-13-2006 10:52 PM                       
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Guter Herrn Saltzmani,

Ignorance is the twin-brother of Arrogance.

You better do a minimum check on the sources in question, if not your motives - before you express yourself publically about the history of the Hyperboreans.

Since there are no one - fo far - that have traced and mapped their origin and history - in a truly clear and confirmed scientific concept.

Within European Archeology and History its a long accepted fact that we do NOT really have had sufficent material to establish clear pictures of the first migrations, the spread of settlements and the further development of the cultures that once populated The Northern Countries. In fact we still dont know enough about this area - in the period between 10.000 BP and 1000 BP - to establish the basic events and the succesional development of this cultures, along a verifieble time-line.

Not until recently.

Thus a few of us have dwelled into thiz field, as we have followed comtermporary research in this area - of both myth, folklore and archaeology - during the last decade(s).

(The primitivism of mideval Europe was even more apparent in the Mediterranean area and Midle Europe, than in the north. The history of pre-religious Europe shows that the Baltics have been a stronghold for the old culture - until they are the last populations to give up the old ("heathen") pantheons, folklore culture and traditions, as well as an incredibly rich oral culture of story- and history-telling, as part of the seasonal holidays, etc. I was guessing that this was legio to the Guter Herrn Professor, but I should obviously not insist of being rigth about that...)

You may check on my thread ("New Info on Atlantis) to find a updated collection of the most significant discoveries that recently have established the technically and physically proven basis for the litterature of pioneers like Felice Vinci and other contemporary historians.

Further I was expecting that you were familiar with the nationality and citizenship of Dr. Felice Vinci. So how could - and WHY should - an Italian researcher "steal" the history of Troy, to place it in The Baltics?!

Or maybe you find comfort in the modern myth that was created after Schliemann found the golden necklaces from the periods of the old Greek kingdom. Since he presumed that he was looking for Troy everybody seem to have agreed to the tempting fascination of "baptizing" this jewelry as the necklace from Helen of Troy.

THAT`is a nice story - but it is definitly no prove that Herrn Schlieman found anything like the real Troy. We still dont KNOW enough to conclude on that question - either.


Luckily we have been seeing great progress within these topics over the last two decades. And the total amounts of finds are giving us a good row of clues to the whereabouts of Modern Man in Eurasia - AND the north - during the last 40.000 years.

Meanwhile I could be interesting to know what basis you THINK you have for the statements above...

[ 01-13-2006, 11:14 PM: Message edited by: Boreasi ]
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Posts: 1330 | From: Norway | Registered: Apr 2005  |  Logged: 80.213.50.160 |   
 
rockessence

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   posted 01-14-2006 03:10 AM                       
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Artemis,

Again, I urge you to explore the link I gave you above to learn more about Homer's links to the Baltic area.

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"Illigitimi non carborundum!"
All knowledge is to be used in the manner that will give help and assistance to others, and the desire is that the laws of the Creator be manifested in the physical world. E.Cayce 254-17

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Posts: 3108 | From: Port Townsend WA | Registered: Feb 2004  |  Logged: 64.40.51.64 |   
 
Herr_Saltzman

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  posted 01-14-2006 10:00 AM                   
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It is utter nonsense.

As I said before, the Norse feel obligated to steal other people's history to make up for their own. I don't know why.

Reminds me of Hitler and his Aryan propoganda.

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Cheers, and Good Mental Health,
Herr Saltzman

http://forums.atlantisrising.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=001530;p=10

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Posts: 1245 | From: Vienna, Austria | Registered: Sep 2005  |  Logged: 71.130.92.224 |   
 
rockessence

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   posted 01-14-2006 10:43 AM                       
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Herr,

I don't blame you for your opinion. This is par for the course relative to this information. Also why it is "the few" who venture to learn something in the face "scholarly" opposition.

Perhaps in spite of your "scholarly" opposition, some will venture to learn something.

Cheers and Good Mental Health to you too!!!

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"Illigitimi non carborundum!"
All knowledge is to be used in the manner that will give help and assistance to others, and the desire is that the laws of the Creator be manifested in the physical world. E.Cayce 254-17

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Posts: 3108 | From: Port Townsend WA | Registered: Feb 2004  |  Logged: 64.40.51.134 |   
 
Boreasi

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   posted 01-14-2006 11:00 AM                       
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Saltz,

I am sorry to see that you are stuck with the quasi- or pseudo-science of your political past. I do understand - and fell sorry about - that the legacy of the Roman fascism and the German nazism still seems to cloud your counscious and observant participation in cultural and historical debates.

I do understand that the social and cultural impact of both these movements have weighed much more heavyly into the Austrian population than we Scandinavains may be able to really understand.

Up here we sure feel utterly embarrased about the fact that Hitler used our common, Eur-Asian symbols and mythology - to establish a "Nordic" diversion of our common, "indo-european" herritage.

Moreover it feels awkaward that the Nazis used some of the symbols that - at that time - was basicly known from the Scandinavian countries only, to establish arguments for his political project - which included invading, bombing, killing, molesting, prisoning and torturing quantities of honest citizens of both Denmark and Norway. Thus we had a parable about the Nazis and their allies - appearing in the post-war Norway, saying; "They had to shoot us - and keep us captive - to become good Norwegians, themselves..."

---

Good they didnt get to know the real story behind the Norse myths and The Indo-European legends, as they still consecute the basic traditions of culture still left in and around Europe. I mean, such as Easter, Midsummer, Thanksgiving and - not to forget - Christmess.

They have been celebrated ever since modern man started to establish organised settlements and cultures - all over the Eursian continent.

[ 01-14-2006, 11:20 AM: Message edited by: Boreasi ]
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Posts: 1330 | From: Norway | Registered: Apr 2005  |  Logged: 85.167.112.78 |   
 
Brig

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Rate Member   posted 01-14-2006 11:00 AM                       
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Ancient Egyptians believed their pharoahs were gods. Some of the more egotistical roman emperors thought they were gods and even commanded the people to worship them as such. Alexander the arrogant (he thought he was great) wanted his people to think he was a god. This deofication of certain people and military heros is not that unknown or unheard of. Even in modern times we have egotistical blowhards presenting themserlves as gods and a few foolish hero worshippers who follow them. Sun yun Moon or whatever his name is for one. A few beetle camp followers tried to form a church based on John Lennon    . The ancient greek and roman gods were based on military leaders and others that, for whatever reason, seemed greater than general humanity. The collapse of Atlantis and the leaders of that period would have been great examples of people that survivors mythed into godhood.
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Posts: 8445 | From: Old Washington, Ohio , USA | Registered: Apr 2002  |  Logged: 64.12.116.139 |   
 
Herr_Saltzman

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  posted 01-14-2006 12:08 PM                   
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Again, rubbish.

The fact that the Norse feel the need to rewrite history, and to write their own parts in, is childish.

Tall blond blue-eyed Mycenaean seafareres??? Try olive-skinned, with dark hair, medium height and build. Please.

Carrying a cultural tale from the Norse? About the most cultured thing the Norse ever produced was the longboat -which is admired by scholars far beyond proportion. Throw together a few sticks and paint a dragon and you have a longboat. These same scholars look at ruins of some stones in England, and put it ON PAR with the Egyptian Pyramids.

I am reminded of a quote from My Big Fat Greek Wedding:

(The Greek dad to his northern European-American son-in-law): "My people were inventing philosophy when your people were still swinging from trees."

No offense to the Norse in general, but complete offense to the Norse "academia" who revolve around a man who believes he is descended from a Finnish god.

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Cheers, and Good Mental Health,
Herr Saltzman

http://forums.atlantisrising.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=001530;p=10

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Posts: 1245 | From: Vienna, Austria | Registered: Sep 2005  |  Logged: 71.130.92.224 |   
 
Huggy

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  posted 01-14-2006 12:33 PM                       
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http://www.faculty.ucr.edu/~legneref/archeol/odysseus.htm

Odysseus and the Sea Peoples

Homer writes that Odysseus was the king of the small island of Ithaka, today still called Ithaki by the Greek inhabitants. It is ocated west of the Greek mainland in the Ionian Sea. In Odysseus' own words, Homer provides us with a clear description of the island and its location; however, this description does not seem to fit the island of Ithaki in Greece. Furthermore, Nyland (2002) noted that modern Ithaki shows no archaeological evidence of the palace and village as described in the epic. Also, Homer's description of the climate of Odysseus' home island in no way seems to belong in the Mediterranean. [Note: at the time the Odyssey was believed to have taken place around 1186-1177 B.C., the earth’s average temperature was about one degree Centigrade COLDER than by the year 2000—See Climate. Thus, the Mediterranean region then could have resembled more northerly climates of modern times.] He tells us about storms, fog, tides, hoarfrost, and the endless gray ocean, all with distinctive north Atlantic characteristics. Translator Lattimore wrote:

"Homer seems to know his Ithaka, and what it is like, only he does not seem to know where it is. Listen to Odysseus himself who ought to know": "I am at home in sunny Ithaka. There is a mountain there that stands tall, leaf-trembling Neritos, and there are islands settled around it, lying one very close to the other. There is Doulichion and Same, wooded Zakinthos, but my island lies low and away, last of all on the water toward the dark, with the rest below facing east and sunshine" (IX: 21-26).

Lattimore then comments: "This simply will not do for Ithaka, though it has the landmarks, for it lies tucked close in against the eastern side of the far larger Kephallenia" (Odyssey p.14). To Lattimore and other classicists it is obvious that there is something wrong here. As we will see later, Odysseus' description, quoted above, contains some evidence needed to show the real location of Homer's Ithaka; it is not in Greece at all, in fact it is nowhere near it, as Homer himself admits when he writes that:

"The name of Ithaka has gone even to Troy, though they say that it is very far from Achaian country" (XIII: 248-9).

Ithaki was part of the Achaian region, but Ithaka was not. We are also told that Odysseus is married to Penelope and that they have a young son, Telemachus. Penelope, which means:
.pe - ene - elo - ope
epe - ene - elo - ope
epeatzeratu - -enetan - elorritsu - operatxo
to postpone - every time - thorny - operetta
"Every time she postpones the thorny operetta".

Odysseus then leaves his devoted wife and child and, according to Homer, joins the Achaeans in their brutal attack on Troy, where he supposedly spends the next ten years fighting. This blood and gore episode is the topic of another of Homer's epics, the Iliad. We know that Troy existed and archaeologists have shown that the ruins of the town show plenty of evidence of violent destruction by fire, war and earthquake. Also, the historical records found in Egypt and elsewhere appear to support the fighting in Asia Minor and provide likely dates for Odysseus' travels. The trouble is that these dates do not correspond to the date the excavating archaeologist assigned to the Troy of the Iliad, as will be explained. Odysseus' subsequent history certainly does not support Homer's insistence that Odysseus was an Achaian or a Greek.

THE ODYSSEY SUBDIVIDED

The epic which was passed on to us through the ages, can be subdivided in chronological order starting with his departure from Troy and arrival on Kalypso's island; then from there to the land of the Phaiakians and Odysseus' homecoming on Ithaka.

A: The Great Wanderings, as told by Odysseus, from Book IX: 37 to the end of XII.
B: The Homecoming, as told by Homer, Book V to VIII and XIII: 1-187.
C: The Telemachy, Book I to IV.
D: The Murder of the Suitors, Book XIII: 187 to the end of XXIV

A: THE GREAT WANDERINGS

In spite of being only one week sailing away from his supposed home on Ithaki, it took Odysseus ten years to get there. The citadel of Troy had been conquered, the people massacred and the young women acquired as slaves or concubines by some of the Achaean chiefs, but apparently none by Odysseus or his men, because when Odysseus' ships leave Troy they sail into a very different world of adventure, of fairy tales and magic and head strong women in positions of command, and they meet strange and wild characters. The women taken from the Kikonians are no longer mentioned. He loses eleven of his twelve ships with all the crew members when giant cannibals pelted them with huge rocks from the cliffs above in the "beautiful harbor". Any other captain who met with such a fate would surely have returned back home but not Odysseus; he manages to escape and sails on with one ship and crew to an unknown island where Odysseus climbs a steep mountain and sees the sea all around him. From his high perch, he sees smoke rising in the middle of the island and after a day or two meets a lovely Goddess called Kirke (the Latin spelling Circe did not appear until some six centuries after Homer lived). She then proceeds to turn half of the crew into pigs but relents, when Odysseus draws his sword, and orders her to return the men to human shape. The two then go happily to bed and after their love making is done, Kirke takes command and gives the great Odysseus a number of tasks to do, which he meekly accomplishes with great fear in his heart. Certainly a rather strange scenario.

Following Kirke's orders, he sails away, visits Hades where he meets Teiresias, the seer and keeper of Hades, the underworld, who retained his powers even in the land of death. During his visit to Hades Odysseus meets his mother and other deceased ancestors, his fallen Troy comrades and sails back to Kirke. In all this activity Homer seems to omit critical detail; the reasons which explain why all this is happening are not there. Kirke then gives Odysseus a new set of instructions that take him to the island where the alluring Sirens sing, after which he sails onto Charybdis where he loses six of his best seamen to a six-headed monster lurking in a cave above the water. When he reaches land, he has a big meal of beef at the expense of Helios' holy cattle, gets shipwrecked and in the accident sees all his remaining crew drown. Then he drifts alone for nine days on some flotsam that he manages to save from the wreck before he is rescued by the amorous nymph Kalypso, who proceeds to keep him for seven years, supposedly as a love-slave. No explanation of any kind is given for this time of imprisonment. It is all very nebulous and confusing, however, much good information had been supplied for Kirke's island, geographical, mythological and linguistic, but the story does not seem to flow logically because again there are major gaps in the story. Up to now, all these roving adventures have been told in the first person, but his stay with Kalypso signals the end of the "Great Wanderings" and Odysseus' own story telling.

B: THE HOMECOMING OR NOSTOI

When he leaves Kalypso, the story from then on is told in the third person by Homer. This part is called the "Nostoi" or Homecoming, even though it really is part of the Great Wanderings. Ordered by Zeus, Kalypso gives Odysseus the tools and the necessary wood to build a small sailboat which he sails due east for 18 days, to the land of the oar-loving Phaiakians, following an accurate star bearing. Homer then tells the story of the difficult trip to the Phaiakians and the warm welcome Odysseus received there. He tells about the adventures and his hosts apparently like Odysseus so much that they load him with treasures; but Homer gives no explanation why these were given. The Phaiakians deliver him back to Ithaka, which appears to be described as only an overnight trip away, certainly not the very long way to Greece. In all secrecy, Odysseus is put ashore with his treasures and the Goddess Athena comes to help him carry it all into a beautiful and very deep cave which cuts clear through the island from north to south. Deep in the cave they store it all in a niche and place a large rock in front. What were these treasures and why was the Goddess Athena involved in taking care of them? They must have been very important and probably related to the early religion. Is there a chance that some of the treasures may still be where she and Odysseus placed them? This possibility may exist because the location of the cave is now known and may not have been entered or explored for centuries.

C: THE MURDER OF THE SUITORS

In the last section of the Odyssey, Homer suddenly turns our hero into a bloodthirsty murderer who kills 108 unarmed young men, the flower of the island. The only reason given is that they ate some of Odysseus' sheep and pigs, and had vied for the hand of Penelope, the still beautiful wife of Odysseus, after his 20 year absence (10 fighting at Troy, ca 10 away on the Wanderings). Throughout the years that Odysseus was away on his wanderings, they had always respected Penelope's person and her privacy and were at worst no more than a bad nuisance, which makes the grisly murders so totally out of character for Odysseus. The story does not ring true, no matter what way you slice it. When the epic, centuries later, was translated into Latin, the awful murder episode was used by some Roman to give Odysseus a derogatory new name: Ulysses, uli-is.-.se-es.

uli - is. - .se - es.
uli - isi - ise - esi
uli - isilkari - izentxarreko - ezigabe
coward - sneaky - infamous - savage
"Sneaky, infamous and savage coward."

Whoever made up this name did an enormous injustice to this great and courageous individual. When the Greek island off the west coast of Greece was chosen to be Odysseus' home, Homer named it Ithaka, meaning "Senseless deluge of death". The meaning of the name tells us that even the person who made up the name agreed that the mass murder was totally unwarranted. As a matter of interest, the name Ithaki, used by the modern population, comes from izakide meaning coexistent, referring to its proximity with the much larger island Kefallinia lying west of Ithaki.

D: THE TELEMACHY

Translator Richmond Lattimore has his doubts about the authenticity of the Telemachy, the four books of the Odyssey which tell about Odysseus' faithful son Telemachus, who searches far and wide for information about his father, and in the process nearly gets finished off by the suitors who had lain in wait for him when he returns from his trip to sandy Pylos. Compared with the wanderings, this part of the Odyssey is disjointed and artificial, as Lattimore says in his "Introduction".

"The obviousness of the joins and the bulk of the material not specifically related to Odysseus in Books III - IV, his absence from Books I - II, have suggested that the Telemachy was an independent poem which was, at some stage, incorporated more or less wholly in the Odyssey" (p.4).

A Canaanite legend describes the same brawling and killing tactics, specifically the throwing of furniture, as used by Odysseus and Telemachus when they supposedly were massacring the suiters of Penelope:

She fights violently, She hurls chairs at the soldiers,
Hurling tables at the armies, Footstools at the troops.
Much she fights and looks, slays and views. Anath swells her liver with laughter,
Her heart is filled with joy. For in the hand of Anath is victory.
For she plunges knee-deep in the blood of soldiers, Neck-high in the gore of troops.
Until she is sated, She fights in the house, Battles between the tables.
("Mythologies of the Ancient World" Edited by Samuel Noah Kramer, Doubleday, New York, 1961. (p. 198)

Male domination had turned the caring priestesses into brawlers and fighters. Everything in the Odyssey points to the conclusion that the Telemachy cannot be part of Odysseus' epic voyage. Odysseus was not married, he had neither son nor wife, otherwise he would never have been chosen for a starring role in the Sacred Marriage, about which much more later. It appears obvious that the ancient Canaanite legend was adapted by Homer and included in the Odyssey for a very specific purpose. With all the additions and alterations in the original epic and the pall of brutality this has cast over Odysseus' character, our hero was never given the chance to set the record straight, All indications therefore are that neither wife Penelope, nor his son Telemachos, belong in the epic and they will no longer be mentioned.

THE REAL ODYSSEUS

It will soon become clear to the reader that Odysseus could not have belonged to the patriarchal, woman-despising new world of the eastern Mediterranean sky gods. Homer repeatedly tried to convince us of this, by inserting Zeus as the all-knowing supreme father, philanderer and rapist, assisted by a variety of less important deities who did his bidding. Instead, Odysseus clearly belonged to the earlier trusting and caring world of the Great Goddess, who was still adored in much of Europe and especially on the Atlantic islands of Britain, Ireland and in Scandinavia. The Goddess Athena who sheltered him during his adventures had no father Zeus to supervise her, because she was the Goddess Ashera herself, in her role as protectress of the sailors. Zeus was only fully introduced to the Greek people after Homer had identified and described him in his epics. In a way, the two books by Homer were like a bible for the classical Greeks, designed and written to provide the people with an entirely fictitious pre-history designed to bury the true religion and accomplishments of the people of.the Goddess. The new legends and the pantheon created to cover up the illustrious past could hardly be called a religion, not even a cult, in spite of all the beautiful statues which were made of the heroes, gods and goddesses.

Based on historical and archaeological information, and the writings in the Odyssey, Nyland (2002) discussed how Odysseus was a Pict born on Barra in the village of Borve. Being a skillful sailor and a smart tactician, be was placed in charge of the fleet of ships from the Hebridean islands and NW Ireland, assembled to be sent to the Near East to once and for all destroy the unwanted upstart pre-Judaic patriarchal religion. Many battles were fought, all initially very successful, but Egypt's Ramses III turned the last one into terrible tragedy, as depicted by the pharaoh in such elaborate detail on his Medinet Habu temple. An effort is made to describe these happenings, the difficult times Odysseus lived in, and how the tribes thrived and worshiped in his island civilization of the Goddess.

HOMER’S IDENTITY

Everyone studying Homer's writing has been asking the same question. Even though there is next to nothing to go by, many suggestions have been made over the centuries. He has been called a blind poet as Wilkins comments:

"According to some, Homer was in fact the blind bard Demodocus, who sings the end of the Trojan War at the court of Alcinous (Odysseus IIX: 44-108). This would amount to Homer having 'signed' his work.... For the ancients, the mention of blindness merely referred to the capacity of clairvoyance of many seers and poets, for it was believed that the blind could 'see' the future because they were more receptive than other people". (Page 269)

To others he was an illiterate memory man, who dictated his oral wisdom to a scribe. Others say that Homer represented several people because of the different writing styles and the sheer size of the epics. However, Nyland (2002) showed that the Odyssey was a much older epic, orally passed on, which played mostly in the North Atlantic and which was deliberately altered, probably by Homer himself, and mutilated for the single purpose of destroying all references to the Neolithic Goddess religion and civilization of the Atlantic, which was guided by women. Homer's orders must have been to eliminate the memory of the enormous effort of the Sea Peoples to wipe the upstart patriarchy off the face of the earth. Wherever possible, male domination, female subservience and helplessness, male chivalry and aggressiveness is stressed by Homer, while prominent and independent women in positions of command such as Kirke, Medea and Kalypso are reduced to witches, magicians and eccentrics. Stories belonging in other countries, such as the massacre of the Kikones, the mass murder of the suitors and the blinding of the wheel-eyed Cyclops, were inserted to give the impression that Odysseus was firmly located in the aggressive camp of the male sky gods. All these tales were blended masterfully into one most readable fairy tale, using a characteristic style of poetry, which we now have as the Odyssey. It is therefore clear that Homer cannot have been the blind, illiterate poet who simply passed on his memorized knowledge to a scribe. Instead, he may well have been a highly literate priest of the new proto-Judaic religion of the jealous sky gods. His assigned task would then have been to mask and distort the true origin of, and the history told in, the original travelogue. However, some parts of the older story he removed can at least be partly recovered by reading between the lines, by translating the original names and words used, and by tieing in information given to us in other documents, on tablets, using legends and inscribed on temples.

Although the wanderings took place approximately 1180 B.C., Odysseus' travel account may not have been written until about 750 or 700 B.C. The name Homer is usually said to have originated from 'homeros' normally accepted to be a Greek word meaning "hostage", which could have been a pseudonym for one person or even a group of "gogogizonak" (memory men), however, hostage is also a rather inappropriate name for a literary giant. In the universal language underlying Greek, using the VCV Formula vowel-interlocking formula, "Homer" is the agglutination of three words:

ho - ome - er.
hoberen - omenezko - erakasle
the best/most - honorable - teacher
the most honorable teacher

LINGUISTIC ARCHAEOLOGY

In Nyland’s (2002) book, words and names used by Homer are decoded and translated. They are an important part of the solution of the question "Where did Odysseus go?" The explanation of the system of translation used is discussed elsewhere in this homepage, under Ogam. The reader who is interested in knowing how the names were assembled by the people who first wrote the epic, is urged to read the chapter on Linguistic Archaeology first. Decoding the meaning of the words is no exact science, it was not intended to be, and only that much can be deducted from them as the composition of the names permit. However, the highly organized and logical structure of the ancient language (Genesis 11:1) that we call Basque today, makes this process in general feasible. Sometimes more than one logical translation appears but this is something that cannot be avoided but solutions are possible with practice.

Bibliography

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As Above So Below.
 
 


Title: Re: Were the Gods of Mythology Based on Actual Human Beings?
Post by: Artemis on April 15, 2007, 07:29:54 pm
Herr_Saltzman

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  posted 01-14-2006 12:41 PM                   
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Absolute rubbish. You should be ashamed of yourself for suggesting it.

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Cheers, and Good Mental Health,
Herr Saltzman

http://forums.atlantisrising.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=001530;p=10

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Posts: 1245 | From: Vienna, Austria | Registered: Sep 2005  |  Logged: 71.130.92.224 |   
 
Huggy

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  posted 01-14-2006 12:53 PM                       
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i will show you if i'm ashamed...

http://www.faculty.ucr.edu/~legneref/bronze/saharan.htm

SAHARAN LANGUAGE *


It has been suggested that an ancient Saharan language was used by linguists to invent all the "Indo-European" and Semitic languages, including Sanskrit, Greek, Latin, German, Hebrew, Yiddish etc. (Nyland 2001). This was done with the use of different formulaic manipulations of the Saharan vocabulary, creating largely invented (non-genetic) language "families". Nyland has now proposed several hypotheses and a theory on the origin of these languages (see Theory). In Genesis 11:1 this language is said to be spoken in the whole world, and therefore should be called the Universal Language, which had been the language of the first civilization on earth, located in North Africa and the Near East. It is still spoken in an altered form by the Dravidians of India, the Basques of Euskadi and the Ainu of Japan. In Genesis 11:7 we are told: "Come, let us confuse their language that they may no longer understand one another's speech". The clergy of both Judaism and Christianity considered this a biblical command and have spent an enormous, and long sustained effort to enforce this belief. The formula used by them in most of the artificially constructed vocabularies is called the "vowel-interlocking" or "VCV formula". Because the Basque language is the closest to the ancient Saharan language and has the best English dictionary, this will be called Basque from now on. In most cases, the first 2nd, 3rd or 4th letters of each Basque word were agglutinated into a new word (agglutinate = to unite or combine into a group) . After this was done, some or many of the vowels and h's were removed according to a plan to give the new words special characteristics. In Hebrew most, if not all, of the vowels were removed for writing, but not for speaking. For example, Talmud, was spelled 'lmd' but pronounced 'tal-mud', from Basque tala - mudapen, watch out - alteration: "Watch out for alteration", which is basic to an oral law.
It is the task of the linguistic archaeologist to look at languages before the invention of writing, to search the very roots of such languages; the subject could also be called pre-historical linguistics but that name would still be part of the fortress called linguistics. To make this process at least plausible, other disciplines such as religion, mythology, archaeology and historical linguistics must be included, while earlier research and hypotheses in this field should be carefully re-examined.

Many languages, including such early languages as Hebrew and Sanskrit, were created by formulaic manipulation of Basque vocabulary. However, the name Basque, or more accurately Bask because there is no Q in the language, did not exist at the time this language invention was done. There must have been an earlier form of this language available to the linguists doing this manipulation. But where did it come from and what was it like?

The research done by Dr. N. Lahovary and published in his book "Dravidian Origins and the West" shows conclusively that Basque and the old Dravidian languages of India are closely related. Nyland’s research into the Ainu language of Japan shows the same. The Ainu are thought to have been isolated in the Far East for as long as 8,000 years, yet they retain an early, non-agglutinated, form of Saharan, thus the original language must have been very old. These startling finds seem to indicates that the precursor of the Basque language was spoken very early in Europe, Africa and Asia, just like Genesis 11:1 tells us: "Now the whole world spoke one language". Nyland suggested that the forerunner of the Basque, Dravidian and Ainu languages was the Saharan language and that the language spoken in the beautifully painted cathedral caves in southern France and northern Spain was an early form of the same. However, this early form of the language cannot have been the one used by the early religious scholars doing the inventing of new languages such as Sanskrit. They used a later, manipulated, form that was constructed with agglutination. It employed the vowel-consonant-vowel interlocking principle.
That many words in the Saharan/Basque vocabulary are artificially assembled is obvious from words like alkar, meaning mutual. It comes from three Basque roots: al-ka-ar:

al. - .ka - ar.
ala - aka - are
alai - akatsbako - arreman
happy - perfect - relationship
"A perfectly happy relationship".

This is a very good definition of the meaning: 'mutual'. Applying the same system of analysis to other words, it becomes clear that thousands of Basque words have been similarly assembled using the VCV vowel-interlocking system, but not all. Underneath this artificial vocabulary lies a non-invented, non-agglutinated Basque language, but how can this be explained? Is it possible that this substratum Basque language is still spoken somewhere?

THE MEANING OF SAHARA

The Basque word zahar means old, and the name Sahara could therefore be interpreted as "the old country", but the Basque ‘z’ and the ‘s’, which is pronounced as ‘sh’, are quite different letters so zahar may not be the origin of the name Sahara. However, there appears to be another meaning embedded in "Sahara". It is analyzed as:

.sa-aha-ara.
esa - aha - ara
esan - ahalguzti - aratz
to say/speak - Almighty - pure/refined
"The speech of the Almighty is refined"

Could this interpretation of the name mean that the original language had been refined or developed by early linguists? The logical and highly organized structure of the Basque language surely seems to support this possibility. The name used by the Basques for their own language is "Euskera", analyzed as:

eu - us. - .ke - era
eu - usa - ake - era
euki - usaiako - akela - erabildura
to retain/preserve - usual/traditional - goddess - usage/speech
"We preserve the traditional speech of the Goddess".

In order to bury the true meaning of the word, the Roman Catholic church changed the quite obvious ‘.ke’ for ‘ake’ to '.ka' so that now we have both Euskera and Euskara in the dictionary. De Basaldua (1925) called his native language "Eskera" and explained the meaning as esk (hand) and the ending era as form, wave, grace, beautiful, good, and he pulled these words together to mean "way to move the hand; wave with grace" which, he said, was also called 'ademan' in Spanish, meaning gesture (see p. 55). This meaning is difficult to accept because it appears to have little bearing on the language. Instead, we are apparently dealing here with words belonging to the first civilization on earth. This civilization had evolved so greatly that the substratum language was no longer adequate to describe their achievements in astronomy, mathematics, acoustics, navigation, religion etc. Therefore, a system had to be found to expand the language. The VCV vowel-interlocking structure was the result of their search for a practical expressive language.

There seems little doubt that the Basque language is a direct descendant of this original Saharan language and that this language has not changed very much for several millennia, probably because of the extremely careful oral transmission traditions used in their educational system, passing the language on from generation to generation without changes.

STAGES OF DEVELOPMENT OF BASQUE

Many people have theorized about how language began, some suggesting that the first words used were imitations of spontaneous articulation of sounds in nature, such as animal cries, expressions of pain, happiness, fear etc. Others searched for the origin by studying the first utterings of small children. English possesses a large number of onomatopoeic words such as crack, bang, splash, splatter, bash, thrash, thump etc. It is certain that such onomatopoeia play a role in language formation but it is doubtful that such words are the origin or main source of the language. Basque contains more onomatopoeia than any other language but Paleolithic words such as aitz (rock, stone), ur (water), euri (rain), lur (earth, soil, floor), elur (snow) and izotz (ice) have no onomatopoeic origin.

The well-known linguist Noam Chomsky reasoned that the structural facets of language, the ground rules of speech, had to be inborn. If that is the case, speech must be very old. Building on this thinking,, the Saharan language must have gone through at least three main stages such as:

Stage 1) the basic, natural language evolved during the Paleolithic and early Neolithic, prior to ca 8,000 B.C. It appears that the words in this language mostly named tangible items.

Stage 2) the perfection of clear vowel differentiation and the introduction of onomatopoeia, starting about 8,000 B.C. This non-agglutinated phase of the language was taken east to become the basis of the Ainu and Dravidian languages. It is still spoken today by some 170 million people. This vocabulary included many intangible items.

Stage 3) the invention of morphemic agglutination (morpheme = a distinctive arrangement of sounds that contains no smaller meaningful parts; agglutinate = to unite or combine into a group) which resulted in the development of a greatly diversified vocabulary in which each one of the new words started with vowel-consonant-vowel (VCV), a process that was probably completed by 4,000 B.C. Making a description or comment pertaining to the thought to be expressed created the new words, and the morphemes were then assembled to create words needed in science and technology. The earliest invented languages of the Near East, such as Hittite, Luvian, Palaic, and Sumerian etc. were later constructed out of this invented vocabulary, starting possibly shortly before 2,000 B.C.

It may not be possible to reconstruct Stage 1, but the existence of the Dravidian languages with their well-established relationship to Basque, may make it possible to reconstruct many of the words and much of the grammar of Stage 2. Nyland’s (2001) work in linguistic archaeology up to now has mostly been based on Stage 3, because the built-in sentence in many of the agglutinated words, created with the VCV formula, can still be restored with his system of decoding. Research into the vocabulary and sentence structure of Stage 2, of necessity, will require a thorough knowledge of the Dravidian languages, such as Dr. N. Lahovary possessed.

MAGIC IN NUMBERS AND LETTERS

Detailed study of the enormous stone monuments in Egypt have brought home the realization that sciences such as mathematics, astronomy and acoustics were highly developed and applied, long before the time of the Greeks and Arabs. We also know that magic played a big role in the thinking of these people, which tended to promote dedication to the task at hand and resulted in superior achievements. The Ogam research by Anthony Jackson, anthropologist at Edinburgh University, shows that prime numbers, which are numbers that cannot be divided by any whole number, were ascribed superior magical properties.

Another source of magical fascination was the mirror-like patterns in numbers e.g. 121, 87178, 1399931, most composed of odd-numbered digits. A special case is 'Pi' parsed here to make certain groups stand out more. Note in about 17 characters the combination 238-46-2-46-832 forms a typical sort of mirror-like characteristic:

3.14-15-926-535-89-793-238-46-2-64-33-832-795-02-88-41-9-71-69-
3993-751-0-58-2-09-749-44-592-3-07-81-640-628-620-8998-6280 etc.

Searching in there, you see numbers like 793 and 795, 751 and 749, 582 and 592 and the sequence at the end where 640 links to 620 with an overlapping link of 628 and 6280 with 8998 in between. It is not surprising that 'Pi' was a major source of magical fascination for the mathematicians of the pre-patriarchal civilization.

Another very important number in modern science and especially to the ancient Egyptians was the natural log E = 2.718281828459.... note the mirrored numbers 828-1-828. It is created by the series: 1 + 1/1! + 1/2! + 1/3! + 1/4! where the exclamation mark means "factorial". (4! means 4 x 3 x 2 x 1).

Apparently, the early scholars developed a "symbolic mathematical language" that was embedded in their monumental structures. The measurements of the great pyramid at Gizeh show many such mirror-like numbers according to Jim Branson in Idaho, who studies the acoustical characteristics of the spaces in the pyramid. This mathematical language magic was also used in the formation of Stage 3, the improved and enriched Saharan language we know today as Basque. The mirror-like VCV pattern became the basic structure of the new morphemes. These were used to construct the new vocabulary that has vowel interlocking as the main rule. Where vowel interlocking is interrupted, a break in the word is required which usually means that a new word begins.
VOWEL INTERLOCKING

Vowel interlocking may have been another form of magic with letters and, thanks to it, the hidden sentences in many Saharan/Basque words can be recovered. This system proved to be so successful that the scholars who made up the new Semitic and Indo-European languages, adopted the practice of abbreviating the word to be used to the first three letters, of which the last vowel of the first VCV had to be the same as the first vowel of the to be agglutinated VCV:

VCV1 - V1CV2 - V2CV3 - V3CV4 - V4CV

The Sanskrit language was made up almost entirely out of that half of the Saharan language which starts with VCV, while the scholars creating the Romance languages and English used the same system as a priority but quite often felt obliged to use a CV word for the first morpheme. For the Semitic and Germanic languages the entire Saharan/Basque vocabulary was used and a new letter, the ‘w’, a letter without meaning or Saharan origin, was introduced.

ORGANIZATION OF THE VCV SYLLABLES

The reorganization of the Saharan language, done millennia ago, was so far-reaching that even today half of the Basque vocabulary is made up of the Saharan scholars’ invented words. The basis for the VCV structure was the 16 consonants, each flanked by two vowels. Starting with B the first VCV would be ABA which was subdivided into five syllable groups, ABA, EBA, IBA, OBA, UBA , each of which was composed of five syllables: ABA, ABE, ABI, ABO, ABU / EBA , EBE, EBI, EBO, EBU / IBA, etc., 25 in all. Each of the 15 consonant therefore was associated with 25 VCV syllables for a grand 400 syllables. In addition there was the double RR (pronounced as a rolling R), with 25 VCCV morphemes, ARRA, ARRE, ARRI etc. making a total of 425 different roots. Most of these morphemes were assigned groups of related words, others had only a single meaning (e.g. EBO for: ‘to develop’ or UTO for ‘utopia’) and a large number was left free for future expansion of the language (e.g. EBU, IMO). A great deal of thought must have gone into the composition of these word groups because even today it is not difficult to select from them the correct word which was used in the make up of the hidden sentence. As is usual with invented words, some of these over time may have been dropped or forgotten through non-use, which would have freed some of the VCV’s for other words or non-use. For instance, one of these may well be the verb ulatu, which still is used in some Polynesian languages as hulatu, meaning 'to welcome'. Hula girls dancing a welcome meet visitors to Hawaii at the airport. It appears that the system was never completed because there are still about 106 out of 425 VCV’s without vocabulary designations. See the VCV Dictionary.
The basic idea for bringing about this mass language conversion project came from the marvelously organized Saharan/Basque language itself (Stage 3). Here follow some of the words and names used by the Basques themselves, which show the VCV manipulation process of the original language

SAHARAN / BASQUE, AN AGGLUTINATED LANGUAGE

Webster's dictionary defines "agglutination" as: " to unite or combine into a group ". This is a rather inadequate definition because not only whole morphemes, but also parts of morphemes, as small as one or two letters, and whole words were being agglutinated and fused. In this text, Nyland used dots to replace the letters that were removed. In the case of double vowels an 'h' is often omitted. The 'rr' morphemes are classed with the VCV's.

Combining complete words:

jokaleku (playing field)
joka - leku
hitting, striking - place, location
"place of hitting (the ball)"

gurdibide (cart path)
gurdi - bide
cart - path

Combining only VCVs:

ainguratu (to anchor)
ai - in. - .gu - ura - atu
ai - ine - egu - ura - atu
ai - inertia - eguzkisarrera - urandi - atxurbegi
I hope - inertzia, tied down - sunset - ocean - hole in the anchor stone
"I hope to be tied down to the hole in the anchor stone when sun sets on the ocean".

errukizko (merciful)
er. - .ru - uki - iz. - .ko
ere - eru - uki - iza - ako
erresumina - erruki - ukitu - izan - akorduan euki
charity - compassionate - to touch - to be - to remember
"He was remembered for his touching compassionate charity".

ezpatalari (swordsman)
ez. - .pa - ata - ala - ari
eze - epa - ata - ala - ari
ezereztu - epaitu - atalbanatu - alabeharrez - arimagalduko
to extirpate - to slash - to cut into pieces - fatally - merciless
"He extirpates by slashing and cutting into pieces, fatally and mercilessly".

izigarrikeria (atrocity)
izi - iga - ar. - .ri - ike - eri - i.a
izi - iga - ara - ari - ike - eri - iha
izi - igarrezin - arakintza - arrigarrizko - ikertu - erio - ihaurri
fright/horror - unpredictable - massacre - awful - to investigate - deaths - many
"They investigated the many deaths and the unpredictable horror of the awful massacre".

laranja (orange)
.la - ara - an. - .ja
ala - ara - ano - oja
alaitu - aratz - ano - oian
to fill with joy - pure - juice - forest, trees
"Pure juice from the trees fills us with joy".

mendebaleko (of the west)
.me - en. - .de - eba - ale - eko
ume - ena - ade - eba - ale - eko
umel - ena - adelatu - ebakin - ale - ekoiztu
overripe - (superlative) most - to prepare - to produce - grain - to produce
"They prepare to produce a most prolific grain harvest".

Vitoria,
ibi - ito - ori - ia
ibili - itoaldi - orrits - iaio
to be - to laugh a lot - celebration - cheerful
"There was a lot of laughter at the cheerful celebration"
(Two vowels together often means that an 'h' was omitted.)

merezi (merit)
ome - ere - ezi
omendu - eredu - ezinobe
to honor - example - excellent
"Honor the excellent example".

Combining a VCCV with VCV's.

ospegabeko (unknown) (was: otspegabeko)
ots. - .pe - ega - abe - eko
otse - epe - ega - abe - eko
otseintza - epel - egarri - ebegikortasun - ekoiztu
subjection - timid - strong desire - hospitality - to acquire
"With timid subjection (he/she) had a strong desire to acquire hospitality".

ustekabezia (unforeseen)
uste - eka - abe - ezi - i.a
ustekeria - ekarri - aberekeria - ezinukatuzko - ihabali
prejudice - to bring/cause - brutality - ezinukatuzko - ihabali
"Prejudice can cause undeniably frightening brutality".

Combining a full word and VCVs:

larkeria (excess)
lar ' .ke - eri - i.a
lar ' oke - eri - iha
lar - okerrez - erion - ihaurri
too much - mistakenly - to spill - to scatter
"Too much was mistakenly spilled and scattered".

zabaltasun (openness, honesty)
zabal - al. - .ta - asu - un.
zabal - ale - eta - asu - une
zabal - alegeria - eta - asuri - une
sincere - rejoicing - abundance - new born lamb - place
"There was sincere rejoicing at the place with the abundance of newborn lambs".

zorigabeko (dismal)
zori - iga - abe - eko
zori - igarri - abereretsu - ekonomo
fate - to predict - brutal - administrator
"The fate of the brutal administrator was predicted".

Combining CV and VCV morphemes:

Bizkay,
bi- iz.-.ka-ai
bi - ize - eka - ai
bidegaitz - izentxar - ekaizpera - aipu
dangerous crossing - bad name - stormy - reputation
"It is a dangerous crossing and has a bad name because of its stormy reputation."

Zuberoa,
zu-ube-ero-oa,
zue - ubel - erro - oartu
all of you - purple, royal - origin, descent - to perceive
"All of you are perceived to be of royal descent".

Pyrenees,
pi - ire - ene - es
pikaldi - irestzaile - enetan - eskerga
clearing the forest - destructive - always - enormously
"Clearing the forest (with fire) is always enormously destructive".

kaiku (wooden bowl for boiling milk)
ka - iku
kaldatu - ikusbera
to heat up - watchful
"Be watchful while heating".

Using a combination of CV, VCV and VCCVs such as in: Gipuzkoa

.gi-ipu-uz. ' ko-o.a
egi-ipu-uzka ' ko-oha,
egin - ipurterre - uzkali ' kontrako - oharkabe
to be - impatient - to overthrow - enemy - spontaneously
"We are impatient to overthrow the enemy spontaneously".
(A break in the word is necessary because the vowel interlocking was broken.)

Bask,
.ba-ask.
eba - aska
ebatzi - askatasun
to decide - freedom
"We decided to be free".

aritz (oak tree)
ari - itza
arrigarri - itzalesko
marvelous - majestic.
"Marvelous and majestic".

gorputz (body)
go - or. - .pu - utz.
go - ori - ipu - utzi
gogor - orriztatu - ipurtmami - utzi
ruthless - to cover with leaves - rump, corpse - to abandon
"Ruthlessly they covered the corpse with leaves and abandoned it".

Recently encoded words lack the interlocking structure. For example, maribidetako, which has to be a new word because prostitution probably only came into being when the male dominated religion arrived. The ancient VCV word construction system had apparently been forgotten or abandoned.

maribidetako (prostitute)
.ma - ari ' bide ' tako
emagalkeria - arriskudun ' -bide ' takoidun oinetakoak
prostitution - dangerous - occupation - high heeled shoes
"Prostitution is a dangerous occupation in high-heeled shoes.


WORDS WITH "UR" (WATER)
The re-organization of the language was consistently done in groups of related words. In the Basque language almost all words connected with water contain the root 'ur' (water). Descriptive terms were then attached to designate the kind of water. A small sampling is given and compared here with the English equivalents, many of which appear strangely unconnected and artificial among them.

uraldi
flood
alditxar = misfortune
urandi
ocean
andi = enormous
uraz garbitu
to wash
azal = skin, garbitu = to wash
urazpil
washbasin
azpil = large dish
urbide
canal
-bide = route
uregazti
waterfowl
gazti = fowl
ureztaketa
irrigation
eztasun = scarcity, -keta = quantity
urgarri
water soluble
-garri = suffix which denotes cause
urgeldi
stagnant water
geldi = quiet, stagnant
urgora
high tide
gora = high
urjauzi
waterfall
jauzi = to leap, jump
urlamia
waternymph
lamia = gnome, troll
urlandare
waterplant
landare = plant
urlurrin
steam
lurrin egin = to vaporize
urmargo
water color
margo = color
urodi
irrigation canal
odi = pipe
urtatu
to soak
-eztatu = to cover with
urtzulo
waterhole
txulo = little hole
urzozo
water ouzel
zozo = blackbird
euri
rain
e = exclamation to draw attention
The only way to explain the reason for the English words to be so very different and unconnected among themselves is to show the way in which they were constructed with the use of the vowel-interlocking VCV formula, which can then be used to restore the hidden meaning in most of the words (see English Etymological Vocabulary).
BASQUE, A VERY ORGANIZED LANGUAGE

Although the grammar of Basque is complicated, difficult to learn for an English speaker and obviously evolved over a long time, the vocabulary is so well organized, even regimented, that it cannot have evolved naturally over time into this condition and obviously has been scholarly arranged in a fairly short time. As all the early-invented languages such as Sumerian, Hebrew, Sanskrit etc. use this VCV system, the agglutination of the Saharan language must have been done first, since 3,000 bce. Almost exactly half of the Basque vocabulary starts with vowel-consonant-vowel or VCV, two vowels flanking one consonant. Some of these vowels may be omitted in the word invention process, but the consonant is always retained. One exception is the consonant 'h' which may or may not be shown in the dictionary or used in the invention process e.g. both andi and handi (large, enormous) are found in the dictionary, or elberri and helberri (newly arrived); the 'h' is often removed from words, even dialects.

The Benedictine clergy, who created all the west-European languages, were at first instructed in the word invention science by the people who worked on the Latin language in Rome and had been developing it into the liturgical language of the Roman Catholic church. These highly educated and dedicated clergy then fanned out over western Europe, established mission stations with scriptoria, created libraries and started the language invention process. For over 1000 years they employed non-Benedictine grammarians who spoke the Saharan/Basque language, probably originating from Liguria in the Alps and from Euskadi in the Pyrenees region. In the clergy' writings it is often indicated that there are children in the monasteries; most of these belonged to the families of the grammarians. In addition, young boys were sent by their parents to the monastery residential school, to be trained as deacons, clergy and linguists just like Alcuin had been, a practice still followed in several Benedictine monasteries to this day.

MODIFYING THE LANGUAGE

The monk-linguists used a large number of tricks to make the languages they created sound very different. First the periphrastic word order of Basque was completely reversed, which created a fundamental difference and became the main characteristic of the Indo-European "family" of languages. Samples borrowed from Aulestia (p. a30):

negation+auxiliary verb+complements+ main verb
1 2 3 4 5
Ez naiz zurekin etorriko
I am will not come with you
2 5 1 4 3 3
-----------------------------
1 2 3 4 5
Zu bezain ona naiz ni
I am as good as you
5 4 2 3 2 1
----------------------------
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8
Ikusi duzun mutila Jon da
John is the boy that you have seen
7 8 6 5 4 3 2 1
-----------------------------
1 2 3 4 5 6
Zu baino jakintsuagoa naiz ni
I am more intelligent than you.
6 5 4 3 2 1

The intellect that invented this reversal of the ancient periphrastic word order created the basic structure of the "Indo-European languages".

For English, the pronunciation of the alphabet was changed from the usual Latin to the "English" sound, which instantly caused the words to be pronounced very differently. Relatively few vowels were removed from the Latin agglutinations, but many more from the English ones, giving it a very different 'feel'. Most languages received newly invented "characteristic" letters, ô, ü, ø, ö, ñ, è, etc. and/or unusual combinations of letters such as 'eau' in French pronounced 'o', or the Dutch 'ui' pronounced something like 'oi' but can only be said properly by a Dutchman. No doubt intended as a joke, Dutch also ended up with the embarrassing deep throat scrape, written as 'g' or 'ch' such as in Scheveningen, schaap, gaan, gooien, a sound that the clergy probably borrowed from Hebrew and tossed it into Dutch.

Thank goodness the Benedictines resisted these peculiar urges when they created English, which therefore became the simplest of all to learn and speak, and eventually became England's most successful export, in spite of its often ridiculous pronunciation. To some languages the clergy assigned a gender (male, female or neuter) for each word e.g. in French and German, which led to dumb cases such as the 'soldier on guard duty' who is female: "die Schildwache" in German and "la sentinelle" in French. Holland is one of the few countries that rid itself in this century of this incredible gender nuisance; retaining today only the neutral form 'het' e.g. "the horse" is not "de paard" but "het paard". Grammatical rules for each language were invented, some more appropriate and more easy to use than others. Only German ended up with endless and ungainly lists of "Ausnamen", exceptions to the ungainly grammatical rules. However, none of these languages was saddled with grammatical rules as complicated as the Basque grammar possesses, although Latin came close.

In English, the original verbs were separated e.g. the 'tu' at the end of zerbitu (to serve) became 'tu zerbi' (b = v): to servi and 'to serve' in English, 'te dienen' in Dutch and 'zu dienen' in German. In English the original 'i' was maintained in the word 'service', broken down into zerbi-ike, serbi-ikerlari, serve-the visitor. English is full of such Benedictine tricks. Other examples which show that the 'tu' at the end of the Basque verbs became the 'to' before the English verb: begitu (to look), apurtu (to break, destroy), kisitu (to whitewash), neurriratu (to regulate) etc.

RETURN TO A UNIVERSAL LANGUAGE

From Nyland’s (2001) work with the following languages, it appears that all highly developed languages, without exception, were invented by linguists; some languages turned out more elegant and useful than others. If this is indeed the case, then we should be entitled to start facing out some of the unnecessary and dying ones, such as Celtic, Friesian, Wallonian, Flemish, Catalan etc. Danish and Norwegian are almost the same so why not combine them, as the Basques did with their seven languages, which are now together called Euskera Batua or Unified Basque. Ukrainian and Russian, Galician and Portuguese, Finnish and Estonian, Polish and Kashubian, Czech and Slovak, Macedonian and Bulgarian etc. all can be combined with a bit of good will. Why treasure something as artificial and unauthentic as the many unnecessary and people-dividing Benedictine language creations that we are now stuck with?

Nyland (2001) noted that the European nations were making tremendous strides to unify under one government, one monetary system, one army, no boundaries, and now it is time to simplify the church-caused language bewilderment and start working toward a Unified European language, which we could call Euro Batua, which could be English or Spanish, but not German. The third millennium A.D. could be celebrated by starting to work toward the Universal language, it is long overdue. It is a pity that this Universal language cannot again be the Saharan of our ancestors. It is just too complicated and too difficult to learn. Nevertheless, Nyland hoped that the oldest highly developed language in the entire world should not be allowed to die. Let Latin and Greek and Sanskrit only be remembered in books, we can well do without them, but the Basque language must survive and be spoken by a vibrant population, if necessary through the creation of a United Nations Heritage Region called Euskadi. Nyland thought that it would be a worthy project for the U.N.

--------------------
As Above So Below.

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Posts: 1436 | From: Native forest | Registered: Apr 2005  |  Logged: 207.134.200.144 |   
 
Boreasi

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Member # 2421

Member Rated:
   posted 01-14-2006 01:55 PM                       
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Rubbish, rubbish, rubbish.

I`ll say no more.
My time is scarce.

Infinitly Yours
Baba Bubba,

[ 01-14-2006, 01:58 PM: Message edited by: Boreasi ]
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Huggy

Member
Member # 2417

  posted 01-14-2006 02:09 PM                       
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hubba bubba big troubles no bubbles.

--------------------
As Above So Below.
 
 


Title: Re: Were the Gods of Mythology Based on Actual Human Beings?
Post by: cleasterwood on April 16, 2007, 06:57:45 am
I'm sticking to my original statement:   
Quote
Some of the demi-gods were born onto the planet as real humans who reached the status of demi-god through their actions in life, which did get exaggarated over time. However, the gods were not humans, per say, but human spirits who after becoming more grounded in physical joy were transformed into physical human beings. These spirit-humans lived long lives, like Methusela(sp), which accounts for their god-like status and their ability to travel over the world and teach spirituality, which they were ordered to do by the All Father to allow them to return to the spirit form once their physical bodies died. The only exception to this would have been the All Father, who remained pure and didn't become grounded to the earthly experience.

And this is the basis for my story as well.  I've always been a proponent of 'every myth has truth in it'.  I've always believed the gods were human at some point in history.  The Trojan War and it's participants are prime examples of myth turning into fact.  If it happens for one it can happen for them all.  We just have to find them.  Working out a time line would be difficult if you go the mainstream route of thinking.  But I think if we were to go further back in history, say 10500 BC, we may actually be able to one day confirm historical dates in which these people actually existed.  Whether or not the field of archaeology would agree with us is another story entirely though.  :(  We all know they are unwilling to change history even if they are proven wrong so it could be a mute point.

Blessed be,
Lynn


Title: Re: Were the Gods of Mythology Based on Actual Human Beings?
Post by: rockessence on April 16, 2007, 01:14:07 pm
"Some of the demi-gods were born onto the planet as real humans who reached the status of demi-god through their actions in life, which did get exaggarated over time."

Information from the Bock saga says that some were kings and queens whose towering egos caused them to declare themselves "gods".  In recent history you have this happening less successfully in Rome.


Title: Re: Were the Gods of Mythology Based on Actual Human Beings?
Post by: cleasterwood on April 17, 2007, 06:47:40 am
I could so see that happening too Rockessence.   Achilles is a good example of a man making deity status.  Time has a way of distorting the truth and I agree that egos could have played a major role in elevating men/women to "god" status.  However, I still believe there are supreme creators, both God and Goddess, that remained pure and were never human.